MSMU PsyD

[machinebaby]

Hi,
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere on the site, but Mount Saint Mary's University in Los Angeles has a new Psy.D. program. They haven't graduated anyone yet but their first cohort is entering their fourth year this coming year, I believe. They are in process of APA accreditation and have very reputable nursing and DPT programs. I have been accepted to that program and Alliant. I have a lot of concerns about both options, but I am inclined to go with one given my circumstances. I am wondering if anyone has thoughts? I have posted some information about my situation below. I could conceivably wait a year.

I am a very nontraditional student. I am 54, the sole provider for my family, and can't move from California, currently.
I would like a doctorate before I am 60 to increase my earning potential and be competent at a high level as a therapist.

I had to leave UCSC in 1991 due to addiction-related performance issues, reentered UCSC last spring, and am graduating next month with a psych BA.

Since readmit I have been an A+ student and top of many classes.
I have an unofficial (UCSC didn't give grades in the 80s) cumulative GPA of 3.78 and a psych GPA of 4.0.
I did not take the GRE, none of the schools I applied to required it due to both COVID and phase out of the test.

I am a CADC-II with over 10 years of clinical experience in private-pay residential substance abuse treatment.

I have been a research assistant at a memory lab at UCSC for this last year but we did not publish anything.

I applied to the following schools
USF
USC
UC Berkeley
PGSP (PsyD and PhD)
Alliant
MSMU

Thanks so much.

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[Sanman]

A few quick questions:

How do you plan to support a family while going to school full-time for 5+ years?

What is your plan for internship and post-doc if you have to move for 1-3 years?

What other options have you investigated before applying to a PsyD program?

 

[summerbabe]

Congrats on almost finishing up your BA! I’ll second what Sanman wrote, especially what other options you’ve considered and whether a clinical master’s could meet most of your future goals.

Would you be able to afford tuition and living expenses at either location solely on federal student loans? This will sound morbid but federal student loans discharge upon death while private ones would be handled by your estate/probate.

A small, for-profit program trying to get accredited is risky as you know and just because professional programs in other departments are well-regarded shouldn’t provide any false security. It would be different if this was a flagship public research university launching a fully funded PhD with tons of institutional oversight as those are almost certain to meet APA standards.

If you went to MSMU, IMO you should bank on only practicing in CA rather than having full flexibility of licensure movement that comes with APA accreditation.

If MSMU does not meet APA standards, you can also run into the situation of having an active CA license and not qualify for institutional jobs that require an APA accredited degree (certain hospitals and state/federal sites like prisons and VAs).

Looks like MSMU has a small cohort model which sounds like a positive while Alliant is known for trying to max out students but is accredited.

 

[bluecolourskies]

I would wait until they are APA accredited if they are in the process, and reapply to more schools next cycle.

 

[MAClinician]

MSMU tuition based on today’s costs is almost $175,000 ALONE not accounting for increases over the 5 years. Even if you get $25K scholarship that’s still $150K of debt. Never mind any living expenses you might need to support your family. There is an online loan calculator that will tell you how much your monthly payment will be. If you finish your program at 60 you better count on working until you are 90 to pay that off...and that’s assuming you are still competent to practice at 90.

You may be more beneficial to get a masters and apply for the LADC if CA offers that.

 

[Sanman]

A couple of other things to look into:

1. Someone recently posted about difficulty attaining the psypact e.passport from a non-accredited program. IMO, even if you only want to live in CA, this may lock you out of telehealth therapy jobs and I think telehealth will be the future for therapy.

2. Nursing (psych nursing) and Social Work are much better about allowing folks to hold down paying jobs while obtaining further education or take breaks. If there is the risk you may need to work to support your family this may be the way to go. PsyD/PhD programs are not understanding about this.

 

[Temperance]

I would like a doctorate before I am 60 to increase my earning potential and be competent at a high level as a therapist.

Numbers-wise, how are you envisioning the increase in your earning potential with a Psy.D.?

 

[WisNeuro]

Numbers-wise, how are you envisioning the increase in your earning potential with a Psy.D.?

And how does that earning potential increase offset the years not working during your program, and the cost of attending, balanced against how many years you still plan on working?

 

[psych.meout]

I would like a doctorate before I am 60 to increase my earning potential and be competent at a high level as a therapist.

The other areas have been covered well, but I wanted to address this part. There are many, many highly competent master's level therapists and many meh or even bad doctoral level therapists. The two programs you are talking about are relatively unlikely to provide you with great training and mentoring, while much better master's program geared towards licensure would likely make you a better clinician. And you can always expand and enhance your clinical skills after licensure with further trainings and consultation.

 

[machinebaby]

Hey everyone. I am new here and didn't expect this level of great responses. Apologies for the slow reply. I tried to reply to everyone's points:

Degree level:
I am at a ceiling with my accreditation that I just don't want to deal with anymore. Before my private clients I make about 1/2 what my doctorate-level licensed colleagues make at my facility. I have been there for a long time and they me pay almost double what I could make with a CADC literally anywhere else. I have checked. So the increase in pay I am aiming at is based on that. I am hoping to build a private practice within 5 years of licensure and leave the place I work now. Then the plan is work until death. hoping for a solid 20 years but who knows?

I have considered MA and MS programs. I do feel like I would like to be degreed at the highest level in the field, which is, I admit, romantic. I was not prepared for how competitive PGSP and USF would be, I did think I had a shot there. If it really seems like a stupid plan that I have, I could wait a year and apply to MA programs and reapply to the same doctorate schools I already tried for, but there aren't many other programs that are APA that are not religious. Fuller looks good but I am not Christian.

I am writing here because I figured all of this out pretty late in the game and I know I have a tendency to want things to work out quickly so before I commit to 5+ years of school I wanted to take a sip from this firehose and see what more experienced people say. I am open to finding a great MA program instead but I would really like a doctorate. If possible, could someone suggest high quality master's programs in the LA area?

One last point I have been weighing is that working in the addiction field, having a doctorate level degree opens me up to more opportunity to run facilities/non-clinical track career paths.

Money:

MSMU tuition is $100k for the 5 years with the $25k "scholarship". The scholarship is, oI think, an incentive to follow them into the breach while they start up a new program. I get that this is a risk, maybe even sketchy. Alliant is of course for profit, but MSM is a non-profit school. In real terms, I am not sure how much that matters but I do find the idea of going to a for profit school sketchy.

I have assets that I plan to sell to cover tuition costs. My wife will be a BSN in 2 years and she will take over supporting us through the end of the program.

According to the advisors at MSMU, all their first years students have worked full time, which I am hoping to do as well. I have taken more than full time classes at UCSC while also working full time, resulting in 80-100 hour weeks for about 3 months last year. It was very tiring but as I said I got a 4.0. I am not honestly sure how long I can keep up great grades and work full time. If I cannot work for two years longer in a doctoral level program than a master's level program, My math roughs out that I can recoup the lost wages in about 5 years.


Thank you all again for your replies.

 

[summerbabe]

Before my private clients I make about 1/2 what my doctorate-level licensed colleagues make at my facility.

I am hoping to build a private practice within 5 years of licensure and leave the place I work now. Then the plan is work until death.

Have you done research on what your area pays in terms of private practice with a LCSW/LPC/MFT/etc versus PhD/PsyD? Taking insurance versus cash pay only versus split between both?

You might find that the difference between a typical master’s level PP hour and a doctorate PP hour for therapy may very well not warrant the extra 3-5 years of education and a lot more in tuition/debt.

For better and for worse, since you’ve been working as a clinician for a decade, whatever type of program you enter will likely be tweaking and refining your clinical skills. As opposed to somebody who has never done anything in mental health and needs to build from the ground up. From this perspective, whatever gets you practicing quicker might make the most sense.

Unless you wanted a practice where assessment is a significant part of what you do, you’d need to go down the doctorate route (and I’d definitely inquire specifically about how assessment is taught at MSMU and what types of in-house and assessment practicum options they have lined up and contrast that to what you’d find in a more established doctorate program).

One last point I have been weighing is that working in the addiction field, having a doctorate level degree opens me up to more opportunity to run facilities/non-clinical track career paths.

That’s likely true (but there are plenty of master’s folks in leadership in all types of orgs) but if your end goal is truly private practice, this might be a moot point.

But if this is a goal, would working in private practice after getting a degree be a good fit or would you need some specific leadership/institutional admin experience to be a strong applicant?

I have taken more than full time classes at UCSC while also working full time, resulting in 80-100 hour weeks for about 3 months last year. It was very tiring but as I said I got a 4.0. I am not honestly sure how long I can keep up great grades and work full time.

This is not sustainable over an extended period. You are more likely to burn yourself out and it happening before you’re even really aware of it if you continue forward like this.

 

[machinebaby]

Unless you wanted a practice where assessment is a significant part of what you do, you’d need to go down the doctorate route (and I’d definitely inquire specifically about how assessment is taught at MSMU and what types of in-house and assessment practicum options they have lined up and contrast that to what you’d find in a more established doctorate program).

This is a really helpful point, I will call them tomorrow and ask about assessment training. I have several doctorate-level friends who make a good bit of extra income in assessments. I have factored this in as part of the reason to get a PsyD.

Have you done research on what your area pays in terms of private practice with a LCSW/LPC/MFT/etc versus PhD/PsyD? Taking insurance versus cash pay only versus split between both?

You might find that the difference between a typical master’s level PP hour and a doctorate PP hour for therapy may very well not warrant the extra 3-5 years of education and a lot more in tuition/debt.

I don't really know how to get reliable data on PP rates. Is there a resource for this you would be willing to share please?

This is not sustainable over an extended period. You are more likely to burn yourself out and it happening before you’re even really aware of it if you continue forward like this.

This may sound like a cynical question, but is it as important to maintain all perfect grades in a terminal degree program?
Related, and maybe less cynical question, what are passing grades in doctorate programs? I was surprised to learn that in nursing school passing can be 85%-90% depending on the class. When lives are in the balance this makes sense, but still I had never thought about it.

Thanks for your help

 

[Temperance]

Related, and maybe less cynical question, what are passing grades in doctorate programs? I was surprised to learn that in nursing school passing can be 85%-90% depending on the class. When lives are in the balance this makes sense, but still I had never thought about it.

Doctoral programs are not like undergraduate programs. Classes and grades are the least important part.

That said, in a sense, it's easier to pass classes because the actual demands are in extracurriculars. Depending on the program, the bar for passing may be higher; in my program, a B- is the minimum passing grade (and is considered to be not doing well). However, the classes themselves are not meant to be challenging for the sake of being challenging because the purpose is to impart information that you'll then use to do research and be a competent clinician.

 

[machinebaby]

Doctoral programs are not like undergraduate programs. Classes and grades are the least important part.

That said, in a sense, it's easier to pass classes because the actual demands are in extracurriculars. Depending on the program, the bar for passing may be higher; in my program, a B- is the minimum passing grade (and is considered to be not doing well). However, the classes themselves are not meant to be challenging for the sake of being challenging because the purpose is to impart information that you'll then use to do research and be a competent clinician.

Well this is reassuring, thank you. It makes sense that at the graduate level there would not be the same kind of gatekeeping courses as in undergrad, and that focus is on actual skill building.

Every day I am confronted in sessions with the limits of my scope and training. I really want to level up.

 

[summerbabe]

I don't really know how to get reliable data on PP rates. Is there a resource for this you would be willing to share please?

Nope, unfortunately this is something you'll need to gather locally via networking. What an hour of therapy goes for in Manhattan will obviously be different than in Medford, OR. And part of what an individual can charge is based on their marketing, local supply v demand, ability to keep consistent referral sources, etc so there is variability.

Even if you decide on the doctorate, you'll want to know what to realistically expect with that degree via therapy and assessment, rather than assume that it will make getting an expensive degree worth it.

And if you do go down the assessment route, you'll need to be specific about what your local market can support and what you can receive adequate training in. And there are differences within assessment subfields (neuropsychology, forensic psychology, IME work, etc) that may require substantial training including postdocs, which will delay when you can independently practice.

Every program has to offer some degree of assessment. But that wouldn't necessarily be sufficient for true independent practice so it's often supplemented via practicums.

Since you have friends who have PhDs, ask somebody to lunch and ask them to break out numbers for you to get a sense of what they are actually bringing home.

 

[MAClinician]

MSMU tuition is $100k for the 5 years with the $25k "scholarship". The scholarship is, oI think, an incentive to follow them into the breach while they start up a new program. I get that this is a risk, maybe even sketchy. Alliant is of course for profit, but MSM is a non-profit school. In real terms, I am not sure how much that matters but I do find the idea of going to a for profit school sketchy.

MSMU lists their tuition in the program section. 129 credits with fees is $$152,808 (I miscalculated the first time). Even if you get the scholarship that’s over $125k in tuition ONLY. not counting money for conference travel, books and study materials, unexpected emergencies etc. Federal graduate student loans are NOT subsidized which means your balance accrues interest while you are still in school. Private loans may have higher interest rates. You WILL NOT make up the earning potential going down this path.

Can you afford a $1500 loan payment on your doctorate salary? Can you do that until you are 70? Or 75? Or 80? I admire your desire to practice at the highest level possible. It’s important to be realistic also. Especially if you are geographically limited to CA.

Find a reputable masters program and you will have better chance at accomplishing at least one of your goals (PP).

 

[machinebaby]

MSMU lists their tuition in the program section. 129 credits with fees is $$152,808 (I miscalculated the first time). Even if you get the scholarship that’s over $125k in tuition ONLY. not counting money for conference travel, books and study materials, unexpected emergencies etc. Federal graduate student loans are NOT subsidized which means your balance accrues interest while you are still in school. Private loans may have higher interest rates. You WILL NOT make up the earning potential going down this path.

Thank you so much for this research and your emphatic care about my situation. I appreciate it. Looks like I messed up my own math when I first calculated, not sure how I missed it by that much but I did.

I may have buried it above, but part of the benefit of getting a degree like this at 54 is I have assets earmarked to sell to pay for my schooling.
I will not be taking out any loans, public or private, to pay for my degree.

I admit, there is a pride factor making a doctorate-level degree attractive. One day, maybe soon (who knows??), I will die and I want to feel like I achieved something I am proud of with my educational opportunity window here. Part of me really wanted to join Keanan Joyner's lab at UCB and push the needle on addiction research but now that I see what it would take to even maybe be competitive for those types of lab spots it isn't a realistic goal in this life. I am ok settling for a less-reputable PsyD.

 

[machinebaby]

Since you have friends who have PhDs, ask somebody to lunch and ask them to break out numbers for you to get a sense of what they are actually bringing home.

This is excellent advice. I will get on this today. Thank you.
I have a call scheduled today from a friend who got his PsyD from Alliant and now has a thriving practice and teaches part time at USC.
I get that he is an outlier.

 

[machinebaby]

Find a reputable masters program and you will have better chance at accomplishing at least one of your goals (PP).

Would you know where I can find a list of reputable masters programs?
I would like to exhaust this area before committing to the path I currently have laid out.
I tried searching the MSW forum but came up short.
Thank you.

 

[Dazen]

Well this is reassuring, thank you. It makes sense that at the graduate level there would not be the same kind of gatekeeping courses as in undergrad, and that focus is on actual skill building.

Every day I am confronted in sessions with the limits of my scope and training. I really want to level up.

To add on to the courses bit, I echo what @Temperance said that they are by far the least important aspect of training. Many PIs will even discourage students from putting effort into coursework above and beyond what is necessary because they are juggling so many different responsibilities. You still need to do the work, and it can look like a lot at the beginning, but you quickly learn how to prioritize and be efficient with doing "good enough."

What will take up the bulk of your time are your clinical and research roles. Research can vary depending on program and lab - and I'm not sure what requirements exist for the programs you're considering - but lab work and competing your thesis and dissertation do take time. They also generally require more independence in thinking and execution that can be harder to plan for if you're not coming from a research background. I'd recommend getting specific information before starting the program about how many hours/week you're expected to put into clinical work, supervision, admin, etc in each year of the program. I find this aspect the most difficult because, unlike coursework and research, you can't decrease your hours through efficiency. If you're seeing clients 10 hours/week, you will be in the room with them for 10 hours no matter what.

I think everyone heard that doctoral programs are "a lot of work" going in and conceptualizing that is hard based on undergraduate experience. There's more focus on self-management, more expectation for original thought, and an overload of competing responsibilities that require constant code switching. I hope some of this is helpful in preparing you for what to expect!

Separately, though, I would challenge you to be very clear about the reasons you want a doctorate vs a masters and the actual difference in outcomes between the two degrees. If you do not want to do assessment or research, I doubt the doctorate would provide you with significant additional opportunity, while requiring much more time before starting your practice and requiring you to learn things that are not directly applicable to your career goals.

 

[machinebaby]

One other question for the universe here, if I do go to Mount Saint Mary's and they fail to get APA accredited by the time that I graduate, is it then impossible to get licensed as a psychologist? Or is it just more difficult?

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

One other question for the universe here, if I do go to Mount Saint Mary's and they fail to get APA accredited by the time that I graduate, is it then impossible to get licensed as a psychologist? Or is it just more difficult?

Much more difficult; you will have to provide documentation to support that your schooling meets the educational requirements per state statutes. In addition, it will eliminate you from being able to apply to many (if not all?) APA-accredited internships. Jobs will specify if they require applicants to have attended APA-accredited programs and/or APA-accredited internships; when I recently job searched all the jobs I was interested in required both. If you wish to pursue board certification in the future, you may also run into obstacles having not attended an APA-accredited program.

So there will likely be obstacles if you don’t attend an APA-accredited program, beyond the licensure issue.

 

[psych.meout]

One last point I have been weighing is that working in the addiction field, having a doctorate level degree opens me up to more opportunity to run facilities/non-clinical track career paths.

I'm not focused on SUDs (outside of specific patients in my practica who have/had them), but are these types of SUD facilities and programs typically run by psychologists or is it more MDs (especially psychiatrists) and MBAs?

 

[machinebaby]

So there will likely be obstacles if you don’t attend an APA-accredited program, beyond the licensure issue.

This is very clear and helpful, thank you.

 

[machinebaby]

I'm not focused on SUDs (outside of specific patients in my practica who have/had them), but are these types of SUD facilities and programs typically run by psychologists or is it more MDs (especially psychiatrists) and MBAs?

The facilities I am aware of, and I have been in the field since 2006, have psychologists in clinical director and administrator roles. Residential facilities need an MD's license to be licensed, but typically the work load for the MD's is low so they have a number, sometimes many, of facilities that run under their license. I think it would be less financially advantageous to run the place. In other states it may be different. I have never seen an MBA running an SUD facility.

 

[machinebaby]

I think everyone heard that doctoral programs are "a lot of work" going in and conceptualizing that is hard based on undergraduate experience. There's more focus on self-management, more expectation for original thought, and an overload of competing responsibilities that require constant code switching. I hope some of this is helpful in preparing you for what to expect!

Separately, though, I would challenge you to be very clear about the reasons you want a doctorate vs a masters and the actual difference in outcomes between the two degrees. If you do not want to do assessment or research, I doubt the doctorate would provide you with significant additional opportunity, while requiring much more time before starting your practice and requiring you to learn things that are not directly applicable to your career goals.

This is all very clear and helpful, thank you for taking the time to respond. I feel pretty intimidated by the process and also the prospect of grad school. Your insights and experience are beneficial.

 

[Sanman]

The facilities I am aware of, and I have been in the field since 2006, have psychologists in clinical director and administrator roles. Residential facilities need an MD's license to be licensed, but typically the work load for the MD's is low so they have a number, sometimes many, of facilities that run under their license. I think it would be less financially advantageous to run the place. In other states it may be different. I have never seen an MBA running an SUD facility.

While I don't work in SUDS, in general the money is in being the medical director/owner. I had friends and colleagues land SUDS director roles freshly minted and I don't believe pay was very good. The high end private stuff is often different. I also know of at least one LCSW that ran a substance abuse program and did well. A challenge that can come up is there are not SUDS rotations/programs available at every school.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

The high end private stuff is often different.

Aren't a lot of these places just charlatanry? I met a dude who ran one (one of the high end money ones in CA), and he was a straight up salesman. A psychologist by training, but essentially Jimmy McGill in real life.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

While I don't work in SUDS, in general the money is in being the medical director/owner. I had friends and colleagues land SUDS director roles freshly minted and I don't believe pay was very good. The high end private stuff is often different. I also know of at least one LCSW that ran a substance abuse program and did well. A challenge that can come up is there are not SUDS rotations/programs available at every school.

Also not in SUDS, but I've heard similar--the money is in directorship/owning or consulting (e.g., helping start up a clinic and then ongoing consultation afterward as needed).

 

[psych.meout]

That's what I was asking about earlier, as that was the very limited experience and understanding I had that the big money isn't there for anyone doing real clinical work.

 

[Sanman]

Aren't a lot of these places just charlatanry? I met a dude who ran one (one of the high end money ones in CA), and he was a straight up salesman. A psychologist by training, but essentially Jimmy McGill in real life.

Having never worked there or been a patient, I couldn't tell you if they are doing any nutty stuff or if it is the standard stuff dressed up in fancy digs with gourmet fruit salad.

 

[WisNeuro]

That's what I was asking about earlier, as that was the very limited experience and understanding I had that the big money isn't there for anyone doing real clinical work.

The director type positions I've seen advertised around here have been for a fairly minimal salary increase, if at all, for a LOT more work. So, while your salary is technically higher, you're generally earning less on an hourly basis.

 

[Sanman]

That's what I was asking about earlier, as that was the very limited experience and understanding I had that the big money isn't there for anyone doing real clinical work.

Is the big money anywhere for anyone doing the real clinical work?

 

[R. Matey]

That's what I was asking about earlier, as that was the very limited experience and understanding I had that the big money isn't there for anyone doing real clinical work.

Most of the money in these types of jobs are in administration and/or running the clinic. MBA people are involved on some level, but it's far more common to have some kind of "clinical director" position that a psychologist or a master's level person, staffs. If you want to know their salaries, it's better to pull the 501(c)(3) documents for the org, if available since pay for these positions isn't typically listed. Master's level clinicians make beans in these jobs and it's much worse for chemical dependency people. For admin, the pay is ~$200k.

@OP, I strongly suggest a master's degree in your situation since it will give you the most return on your investment.

 

[JeyRo]

If money is no object, a couple of the programs in the OPs original list aren't awful. For example, PAU is OK (but at 300K+ for a degree it's beyond scandalous).

If you have the money to pay for these degrees up front that's great but I'm still wondering if there are better ways to spend your money anyways.

 

[Sanman]

If money is no object, a couple of the programs in the OPs original list aren't awful. For example, PAU is OK (but at 300K+ for a degree it's beyond scandalous).

If you have the money to pay for these degrees up front that's great but I'm still wondering if there are better ways to spend your money anyways.

Of course there are, feeding and clothing yourself when you are too old to work comes to mind. You know that as well as me.

 

[psych.meout]

And if you have >$150,000 lying around in either cash or things you don't need and could sell, why not invest that money? I'm sure the returns would more than exceed any net gains from an expensive unfunded program and PP.

 

[JeyRo]

And if you have >$150,000 lying around in either cash or things you don't need and could sell, why not invest that money? I'm sure the returns would more than exceed any net gains from an expensive unfunded program and PP.

I'd be buying farmland. Bill Gates may annoy the **** out of me, but he ain't stupid

 

[Sanman]

And if you have >$150,000 lying around in either cash or things you don't need and could sell, why not invest that money? I'm sure the returns would more than exceed any net gains from an expensive unfunded program and PP.

Sounds like they are invested and would sell to fund education. The question really is whether there is a mathematical rationale for spending that kind of money for a doctorate or even a masters given possible years left in a career. If not, this is mostly an ego driven achievement rather than a financial one and the OP has to decide whether it is worth risking some security in retirement for the ego boost.

 

[R. Matey]

Sounds like they are invested and would sell to fund education. The question really is whether there is a mathematical rationale for spending that kind of money for a doctorate or even a masters given possible years left in a career. If not, this is mostly an ego driven achievement rather than a financial one and the OP has to decide whether it is worth risking some security in retirement for the ego boost.

Don't know about an ego boost--it would depend on how much more you can bill per hour using CD CPT codes vs. psychotherapy CPT codes in CA. Also, many CDs can't practice outside of an agency so they have limited negotiating power in determining their share of a split.

 

[Sanman]

Don't know about an ego boost--it would depend on how much more you can bill per hour using CD CPT codes vs. psychotherapy CPT codes in CA. Also, many CDs can't practice outside of an agency so they have limited negotiating power in determining their share of a split.

That's the potential differential for how much more they might make in the future per year. The OP may have 0-25 years to make that much more. This is weighed against 5 years lost salary, lost interest gains on any investments sold, and 625k (125×5) in tuition plus any interest from loans. If the OP can't earn about $1 million more in a psychology career compared to a counselor career, there is no financial case for this. There is a lot of risk if the OP goes into debt and has a stroke or other debilitating issue before being able to make much of those higher earnings.

 

[R. Matey]

That's the potential differential for how much more they might make in the future per year. The OP may have 0-25 years to make that much more. This is weighed against 5 years lost salary, lost interest gains on any investments sold, and 625k (125×5) in tuition plus any interest plus loans. If the OP can't earn about $1 million more in a psychology career compared to a counselor career, there is no financial case for this. There is a lot of risk if the OP goes into debt and has a stroke or other debilitating issue before being able to make much of those higher earnings.

Well, I'm talking about a master's degree since that's what I suggested in my last post, but we can agree that an unfunded Psy.D. is generally a terrible investment especially when you're older. If they went the master's route, they may consider a part-time program to guard against lost earnings and use whatever assets they had to avoid incurring debt, which would be much more reasonable. As far as risk goes, that's up to them to figure out.

Edit: Not sure where you're numbers are coming from, but I'm guessing you would consider a $60k investment to gain $120k over ten years a bad investment?

 

[Sanman]

Well, I'm talking about a master's degree since that's what I suggested in my last post, but we can agree that an unfunded Psy.D. is generally a terrible investment especially when you're older. If they went the master's route, they may consider a part-time program to guard against lost earnings and use whatever assets they had to avoid incurring debt, which would be much more reasonable. As far as risk goes, that's up to them to figure out.

Edit: Not sure where you're numbers are coming from, but I'm guessing you would consider a $60k investment to gain $120k over ten years a bad investment?

My numbers were from comparing the OP's current job to attending the PsyD program mentioned. People can make bad financial decisions if they choose to do so. I didn't run the number for a master's program, but I am sure the financials pencil out better. However, it depends on how well the investment being sold might do in addition to increased earnings. Spending $60k to make $120k more over 10 years is less risky, but still risky if you can't work for all of those years.

 

[R. Matey]

My numbers were from comparing the OP's current job to attending the PsyD program mentioned. People can make bad financial deicsions if they choose to do so. I didn't run the number for a master's program, but I am sure the financials pencil out better. However, it depends on how well the investment being sold might do in addition to increased earnings. Spending $60k to make $120k more over 10 years is less risky, but still risky if you can't work for all of those years.

Ah, ok--forgive me for being facetiousness then. Yeah, it really all hinges on the level of risk based on factors only known to the OP as well as the net gain per billable hour for psychotherapy over chemical dependency hours as well as a greater portion of profit gained by power to negotiate a better split or go it your own.

 

[machinebaby]

Hi all, thank you for the thoughtful and supportive responses. It has been a busy week and I am sorry to have been letting this post keep going without my participation.

Of course, I can't predict a stroke, being struck by lightning, or getting a bad version of monkey pox while having clandestine sex at a rave this summer, but at 54 I am going to produce I have at least a couple of decades of work ahead of me after I (hopefully) get licensed. I often say I took my retirement on the front end, touring as a musician, making and riding surfboards around the globe, and being a professional photographer. I do intend to work until I absolutely cannot anymore. As I said, I am ceiling-ed out on my CDC earnings and I know that I can double my hourly at the program I have been at and quadruple my PP hourly (I know it is different for insurance). For these reasons I do think I can make up the ground.

I have not lived a risk-averse life so far. I do feel like I am taking a risk here, but I am mostly sure it is a good idea long term.

Yes, there is an ego aspect. As a drug addict, I flunked out of college in 1991 and so finishing the BA just now and then getting a doctoral degree feels like a reestablishing of my dignity. Not a financial concern, but something important to me.

If I was solely money driven, I would be getting an MBA or some financial degree, but probably no one on here is "in it for the money" as Frank Zappa said. There is no question that I will earn more while I am alive if I get the PsyD compared to what I make now.

Tomorrow I will have a long talk with the program director of MSMU about the APA process. I had long talks over the last few days with friends who are former Alliant students and all are happy with their training while being mindful of the reputation. It hasn't hurt any of the four of them that they can tell (one teaches at USC).

Again, thank you all for your insights!!!!!

 

[machinebaby]

Aren't a lot of these places just charlatanry? I met a dude who ran one (one of the high end money ones in CA), and he was a straight up salesman. A psychologist by training, but essentially Jimmy McGill in real life.

While I don't work in SUDS, in general the money is in being the medical director/owner. I had friends and colleagues land SUDS director roles freshly minted and I don't believe pay was very good. The high end private stuff is often different. I also know of at least one LCSW that ran a substance abuse program and did well. A challenge that can come up is there are not SUDS rotations/programs available at every school.

Having been in SUD since it was called addiction, I can confirm many charlatans and salespeople owned and own treatment facilities. Historically the regulation was sparse, the rates were high, and the customers were rich and vulnerable. One well-known place I worked at was owned by a former personal injury attorney who retired when new laws made his business illegal.

That said, I love my work. I love the population. I do have expertise that matters. I do feel as though meaningful work is done. My facility is an outlier, having prioritized high levels of multi-modal individual therapy to the tune of a dozen to 15 hours per week plus groups. Not typical.

The owners took a lot of risks but are now, 20+ years after opening, very wealthy.

Ultimately I would like to open a Buddhist hospice, AFAIK there are none in LA.

 

[R. Matey]

Yes, there is an ego aspect. As a drug addict, I flunked out of college in 1991 and so finishing the BA just now and then getting a doctoral degree feels like a reestablishing of my dignity. Not a financial concern, but something important to me.

@Sanman, man I really misjudged the appeal of being called doctor. Half the time, I forget that I am one.

 

[Sanman]

@Sanman, man I really misjudged the appeal of being called doctor. Half the time, I forget that I am one.

Hey, no judgement from me. OP is old enough to do as they please. Some of us blow money on shiny red convertibles and others on doctoral degrees (I'm contemplating the shiny convertible, personally...not sure about the red). As long as OP is not rationalizing it as a completely financial decision, I'm cool. Personally, I do it for the money as the title has lost its shine for me. Then again, I was making the decision at 21 not 54 so anything I picked was a financial step up from broke college student.

 

[R. Matey]

Hey, no judgement from me. OP is old enough to do as they please. Some of us blow money on shiny red convertibles and others on doctoral degrees (I'm contemplating the shiny convertible, personally...not sure about the red). As long as OP is not rationalizing it as a completely financial decision, I'm cool. Personally, I do it for the money and the title has lost its shine for me. Then again, I was making the decision at 21 not 54 so anything I picked was a financial step up from broke college student.

I personally would take out a bank loan to shoot for the Model X. As much as I hate on Elon, that's a nice car at little less than a FPPS Psy.D.

 

[machinebaby]

@Sanman, man I really misjudged the appeal of being called doctor. Half the time, I forget that I am one.

Try not being one. It matters.