MSMU PsyD

[machinebaby]

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I personally would take out a bank loan to shoot for the Model X. As much as I hate on Elon, that's a nice car at little less than a FPPS Psy.D.

I am currently doing a nut and bolt restoration of a 1971 Alfa Romeo GTV. I drive a same year version that I built into a hot rod. I kind of can’t stand modern cars. To each their own! I get the gist, but what is FPPS?
NVM figured it out. MSMU is nonprofit. Alliant, obviously, FPPS. Decided after a long talk with the director of the program today that I am going to go to MSMU, I’ll chime in and let y’all know how it goes.

 

[WisNeuro]

Try not being one. It matters.

In what way?

 

[machinebaby]

In what way?

For one, respect in clinical meetings. Despite a lot of experience, input from CDCs and even MFTs is largely ignored / taken with a grain of salt. Possibly this is site specific but I somehow doubt it.

 

[R. Matey]

NVM figured it out. MSMU is nonprofit. Alliant, obviously, FPPS. Decided after a long talk with the director of the program today that I am going to go to MSMU, I’ll chime in and let y’all know how it goes.

Tax status aside, you likely won't recoup your investment before you retire.

For one, respect in clinical meetings. Despite a lot of experience, input from CDCs and even MFTs is largely ignored / taken with a grain of salt. Possibly this is site specific but I somehow doubt it.

S*** rolls downhill. We're often told by those in medical community that we're not real doctors. I don't think anyone's respect is worth that much in cash.

 

[ccool]

I am currently doing a nut and bolt restoration of a 1971 Alfa Romeo GTV. I drive a same year version that I built into a hot rod. I kind of can’t stand modern cars. To each their own! I get the gist, but what is FPPS?
NVM figured it out. MSMU is nonprofit. Alliant, obviously, FPPS. Decided after a long talk with the director of the program today that I am going to go to MSMU, I’ll chime in and let y’all know how it goes.

Sounds like youve made an extremely informed decision. Happy for you. 🙂 Sending peace, power, and patience for your journey.

 

[WisNeuro]

For one, respect in clinical meetings. Despite a lot of experience, input from CDCs and even MFTs is largely ignored / taken with a grain of salt. Possibly this is site specific but I somehow doubt it.

If you are getting the PhD for respect in clinical settings, I think you will be greatly disappointed in the long run.

 

[Sanman]

I am currently doing a nut and bolt restoration of a 1971 Alfa Romeo GTV. I drive a same year version that I built into a hot rod. I kind of can’t stand modern cars. To each their own! I get the gist, but what is FPPS?
NVM figured it out. MSMU is nonprofit. Alliant, obviously, FPPS. Decided after a long talk with the director of the program today that I am going to go to MSMU, I’ll chime in and let y’all know how it goes.

Why are we wasting time talking about MSMU when we could have been talking Alfas? The '71 GTV is probably among my favorites. I might give up a few unnecessary body parts for the one Alfaholics tuned. Wouldn't mind a new Guilia either.

 

[WisNeuro]

Bottom line, if it's a vanity/ego/need to accomplish something, sure. We've all got those types of goals. If its a financial thing, it's a terrible investment, especially at this stage. If it's a respect thing, also a terrible investment IMO.

 

[summerbabe]

For one, respect in clinical meetings. Despite a lot of experience, input from CDCs and even MFTs is largely ignored / taken with a grain of salt. Possibly this is site specific but I somehow doubt it.

I'm pretty early career but I would agree with the other posters regarding respect in clinical settings. I've been on healthy teams, everybody's input (when on point) will be valid regardless of degree. And I've been on hierarchal teams where the doctorate will trump mid-level degrees but then likewise be usurped by MDs.

Within institutions like medical centers, people in the highest levels of power are generally MDs or come from the business world and definite ceilings exist with the PhD/PsyD, regardless of merit.

But if your ultimate goal is private practice individual/group therapy, this would be pretty moot as many successful LCSW/LPC/MTFs build very, very successful practices and their clients likely don't care. Or not enough to impact business as ones who want a doctor by title are going elsewhere.

Regardless, it sounds like you're thinking through all the pros and cons and are aware of the risks so best of luck and hopefully MSMU doesn't run into any accreditation issues and are committed to graduating competent clinicians.

 

[JeyRo]

If you are getting the PhD for respect in clinical settings, I think you will be greatly disappointed in the long run.

I never actually received respect for having a psychology degree in clinical team meetings until I was multiple years into practicing. When I was early-career and wet behind the ears, I was "just the psychologist." Somehow the degree itself never really impressed people - experience and seasoning, in the end, were what seemed to matter.

 

[WisNeuro]

I never actually received respect for having a psychology degree in clinical team meetings until I was multiple years into practicing. When I was early-career and wet behind the ears, I was "just the psychologist." Somehow the degree itself never really impressed people - experience and seasoning, in the end, were what seemed to matter.

Yeah, in my experience it's always been how you carried yourself and how much people knew you and your work. The degree itself, be it MD/DO or PhD/PsyD, rarely, by themselves, command any respect in these settings.

 

[R. Matey]

I never actually received respect for having a psychology degree in clinical team meetings until I was multiple years into practicing. When I was early-career and wet behind the ears, I was "just the psychologist." Somehow the degree itself never really impressed people - experience and seasoning, in the end, were what seemed to matter.

When I worked as a mental health case manager for SPMI at the master's level, I had the doctor's ear around the same amount I do now regardless of how much more I know.

 

[machinebaby]

S*** rolls downhill. We're often told by those in medical community that we're not real doctors. I don't think anyone's respect is worth that much in cash.

Well, it isn't your cash. And you're already a psychologist, by the looks of it, so I am confused at your attitude. Do you not like your job?

 

[machinebaby]

Why are we wasting time talking about MSMU when we could have been talking Alfas? The '71 GTV is probably among my favorites. I might give up a few unnecessary body parts for the one Alfaholics tuned. Wouldn't mind a new Guilia either.

Me too! . My hot rod has lots and lots of Alfaholics parts on it, motor lightweight, close-ration gearbox built by Wes Ingram. Backdated with '69 buttress seats and small tail lights. Very quick and fun.

 

[machinebaby]

I never actually received respect for having a psychology degree in clinical team meetings until I was multiple years into practicing. When I was early-career and wet behind the ears, I was "just the psychologist." Somehow the degree itself never really impressed people - experience and seasoning, in the end, were what seemed to matter.

Fair enough and also I have over a decade of seasoning and very little in the way of respect. Ultimately, the master's level route is roughly 2.5 years shorter. I have decided that isn't what I want.

 

[machinebaby]

If you are getting the PhD for respect in clinical settings, I think you will be greatly disappointed in the long run.

Mostly, as I said, it is for my own self-respect.

 

[machinebaby]

Bottom line, if it's a vanity/ego/need to accomplish something, sure. We've all got those types of goals. If its a financial thing, it's a terrible investment, especially at this stage. If it's a respect thing, also a terrible investment IMO.

Says the board certified clinical neuropsychologist, haha.
It sounds as though you are disappointed? Or you know a lot of disappointed people? Can you let me know what you mean? I have spoken to a number of psychologists and none has tried to dissuade me so I am confused. Masters level people tell me to get practicing ASAP and as cheaply as possible, doctoral level people tell me their training was far better than their masters level training and they are happy with their choice.

 

[machinebaby]

When I worked as a mental health case manager for SPMI at the master's level, I had the doctor's ear around the same amount I do now regardless of how much more I know.

If that is true, why did you get a higher level degree?

 

[WisNeuro]

Mostly, as I said, it is for my own self-respect.

I do not recall that being specifically stated in this thread. And, I think everyone is just trying to add perspective and clear up misconceptions, as it appears that there are some big ones. If money isn't really an issue and blowing through 6 figures won't impact retirement that much, it's no big deal to do something if you feel that it will be fulfilling. And, self-respect is always an important thing, I think people are just wondering if there are better ways to get there that don't cost six figures and/or involve a program that is accredited.

 

[WisNeuro]

Says the board certified clinical neuropsychologist, haha.
It sounds as though you are disappointed? Or you know a lot of disappointed people? Can you let me know what you mean? I have spoken to a number of psychologists and none has tried to dissuade me so I am confused. Masters level people tell me to get practicing ASAP and as cheaply as possible, doctoral level people tell me their training was far better than their masters level training and they are happy with their choice.

I'm not disappointed, but I am in a very different situation. My program was fully funded, and I had no debt. So, there was no tradeoff in terms of finances. The ROI worked out given that zero debt and several decades of work. I would not make the same decision, even with a fully funded and accredited program were I 50+. Unless I was fairly wealthy. The ROI would just not make sense to me at that point.

 

[R. Matey]

Well, it isn't your cash. And you're already a psychologist, by the looks of it, so I am confused at your attitude. Do you not like your job?

I love my job, but it's not worth $100k+ in debt, IMHO. In fact, I rejected offers from unfunded programs and tried again the following year. The back-up plan back then was something completely unrelated to mental health.

 

[R. Matey]

If that is true, why did you get a higher level degree?

Research.

 

[R. Matey]

t sounds as though you are disappointed? Or you know a lot of disappointed people? Can you let me know what you mean? I have spoken to a number of psychologists and none has tried to dissuade me so I am confused. Masters level people tell me to get practicing ASAP and as cheaply as possible, doctoral level people tell me their training was far better than their masters level training and they are happy with their choice.

This is an understandable confusion so let me try to clarify--on average psychologists receive more training than master's level practitioners do in psychotherapy, that is true, so they may be more qualified to deliver evidenced based practices. However, master's level practitioners can receive similar types of training if they seek them out. The issue is that many don't and instead rely on their graduate school training including a smattering of techniques applied non-systematically. But, that doesn't preclude many master's level practitioners from gaining exceptional psychotherapy training in their post-master's residency hours. You're in LA, it sounds like, so I'm guessing there are multiple opportunities to train at reputable centers, which will make you functionally equivalent to a psychologist in that one area of practice.

OP, I was a master's level practitioner prior to becoming a psychologist. I left because seeing patients for psychotherapy 40+ hours a week is not for me. But, many of my friends who stayed at the master's level make decent money and have developed niche areas for themselves. There is no reason you couldn't do the same.

 

[summerbabe]

I have spoken to a number of psychologists and none has tried to dissuade me so I am confused.

If the psychologists you’ve spoken to paid a high cost of entry into this field (like Alliant), they will have different perspectives on this field compared to people who came through funded programs.

I have peers who feel trapped by their debt, as well as peers who felt like grad school and its stress took valuable time away from their lives and have come to regret this path (even if it was funded). And I have peers who fall under both categories, which has a greater probability of happening for self-pay routes. And I know people who wouldn’t change a thing.

Personally, I really like my job and this profession is a good fit for me but would almost certainly not do it again if I had to pay my own way. 5 years of grad school and 2 years of underpaid training is a huge chunk of life and thinking about paying a typical PsyD pricetag for this ‘privilege’ is totally unappetizing to me.

But as the saying goes, different stokes for different folks.

 

[machinebaby]

I'm not disappointed, but I am in a very different situation. My program was fully funded, and I had no debt. So, there was no tradeoff in terms of finances. The ROI worked out given that zero debt and several decades of work. I would not make the same decision, even with a fully funded and accredited program were I 50+. Unless I was fairly wealthy. The ROI would just not make sense to me at that point.

Fair enough. FWIW I loved cognitive neuroscience. I was the top of my large class. I am friends with my professor. I read neuroscience papers for fun. For me, while I would very much like to have a research/academic career, that is just not viable at this point. I am too old to be an attractive candidate for any professorship/lab position, as for sure good institutions would want many more years out of someone than I will be able to give.

I do have research interests. I worry a lot about the lack of a unified etiology of SUD, for example. I know there are a few labs doing great work in that specific area (see fanboy post about Keanan Joyner and C.R.E.A.M. lab above) but even if I took two more years to build a research CV it would be a crapshoot to get admitted there. So the path forward is a higher level clinician degree. Funded programs are very scarce here, and I cannot currently move my family, so any choices are limited. I do see the financial downside of the expensive private school option, especially compared to a funded program such as the one you attended.

I could do MFT programs. I would need to wait a year and there are only a few inexpensive and also reputable ones (like Cal State). The private schools are very pricey, almost as much as the MSMU PsyD program.

I am not wealthy. But I have not lived a conservative life. I am on borrowed time as a recovering drug addict and I would like to try my best to contribute at the highest level my efforts and intellect can allow me. I am trying to do the best I can with my life energy before I leave this place. It is weird, I just now realized, to be explaining myself to a stranger on the internet but here we are. I do very much appreciate your concerns. Thank you for your time and perspective.

 

[machinebaby]

This is an understandable confusion so let me try to clarify--on average psychologists receive more training than master's level practitioners do in psychotherapy, that is true, so they may be more qualified to deliver evidenced based practices. However, master's level practitioners can receive similar types of training if they seek them out. The issue is that many don't and instead rely on their graduate school training including a smattering of techniques applied non-systematically. But, that doesn't preclude many master's level practitioners from gaining exceptional psychotherapy training in their post-master's residency hours. You're in LA, it sounds like, so I'm guessing there are multiple opportunities to train at reputable centers, which will make you functionally equivalent to a psychologist in that one area of practice.

OP, I was a master's level practitioner prior to becoming a psychologist. I left because seeing patients for psychotherapy 40+ hours a week is not for me. But, many of my friends who stayed at the master's level make decent money and have developed niche areas for themselves. There is no reason you couldn't do the same.

Thank you for clarifying. I have friends at both levels of licensure. All are satisfied with their choice. Yes I am in LA and I believe you that I could functionally become as skilled at the master's level with future training. It is a good point. I will consider your wisdom, thank you.

 

[machinebaby]

If the psychologists you’ve spoken to paid a high cost of entry into this field (like Alliant), they will have different perspectives on this field compared to people who came through funded programs.

I have peers who feel trapped by their debt, as well as peers who felt like grad school and its stress took valuable time away from their lives and have come to regret this path (even if it was funded). And I have peers who fall under both categories, which has a greater probability of happening for self-pay routes. And I know people who wouldn’t change a thing.

Personally, I really like my job and this profession is a good fit for me but would almost certainly not do it again if I had to pay my own way. 5 years of grad school and 2 years of underpaid training is a huge chunk of life and thinking about paying a typical PsyD pricetag for this ‘privilege’ is totally unappetizing to me.

But as the saying goes, different stokes for different folks.

Thank you for this insight. I have spoken to two friends who went to Alliant specifically. One who worked off $284k (!) in debt in 7 years from both his masters at U of Michigan and his PsyD at Alliant. The only people I know with PhD's from funded programs are professors at UCSC who run their own labs and my clinical prof, who is also a clinician. The clinician PhD's I know all went to unfunded institutions. So I don't have access to the perspective you are sharing. I do appreciate it. For me, having been a clinician for a pretty long time, this is the route ahead. The question is masters or doctoral.

It is intimidating, the thought of 7 years before I can be licensed. It really is. And also, it feels redemptive. That is not rational but it is true.

 

[machinebaby]

I do not recall that being specifically stated in this thread. And, I think everyone is just trying to add perspective and clear up misconceptions, as it appears that there are some big ones. If money isn't really an issue and blowing through 6 figures won't impact retirement that much, it's no big deal to do something if you feel that it will be fulfilling. And, self-respect is always an important thing, I think people are just wondering if there are better ways to get there that don't cost six figures and/or involve a program that is accredited.

I believe you are right, everyone is trying to help. And they may be right, I am taking everyone's input and earned wisdom seriously. I did mention dignity, but probably was buried.

 

[machinebaby]

I love my job, but it's not worth $100k+ in debt, IMHO. In fact, I rejected offers from unfunded programs and tried again the following year. The back-up plan back then was something completely unrelated to mental health.

I have a couple of assets, cars that I bought cheap that became weirdly valuable in recent years, that I will sell to pay for the education. I live humbly and well below my means. I save. It's my hope that it will shake out as a good choice. As a life-long surfer and ocean enthusiast who started at 10 in large waves north of San Francisco, I reflect on my life and see regret coming almost exclusively from chances not taken. The half dozen waves I did not go on stand out almost more than my best and biggest rides.

 

[Sanman]

Thank you for this insight. I have spoken to two friends who went to Alliant specifically. One who worked off $284k (!) in debt in 7 years from both his masters at U of Michigan and his PsyD at Alliant. The only people I know with PhD's from funded programs are professors at UCSC who run their own labs and my clinical prof, who is also a clinician. The clinician PhD's I know all went to unfunded institutions. So I don't have access to the perspective you are sharing. I do appreciate it. For me, having been a clinician for a pretty long time, this is the route ahead. The question is masters or doctoral.

It is intimidating, the thought of 7 years before I can be licensed. It really is. And also, it feels redemptive. That is not rational but it is true.

For some insight, a good number of the folks here (myself included) went to funded programs and ended up as practitioners. The comparison is similar to college really. Some will say go the community college route (state school masters) those that went to some private school, like Pepperdine, will say the money is worth it. Most of us went to state schools and got the graduate equivalent to a full ride scholarship to UCLA.

Now, if you ask the question 'is college worth it' all three of those people will have different takes and different career options. Folks in funded programs, some with famous mentors and profs that can land them good training opportunities and jobs, are fundamentally different than a large school like Alliant that pumps out hundreds of grads. For comparison, my old program currently accepts 6 people per year.

 

[machinebaby]

For some insight, a good number of the folks here (myself included) went to funded programs and ended up as practitioners. The comparison is similar to college really. Some will say go the community college route (state school masters) those that went to some private school, like Pepperdine, will say the money is worth it. Most of us went to state schools and got the graduate equivalent to a full ride scholarship to UCLA.

Now, if you ask the question 'is college worth it' all three of those people will have different takes and different career options. Folks in funded programs, some with famous mentors and profs that can land them good training opportunities and jobs, are fundamentally different than a large school like Alliant that pumps out hundreds of grads. For comparison, my old program currently accepts 6 people per year.

Yep, I get this. And part of my circumstance has to do with the fact that I never really intended to go back to school. I realized very late in life that tethering my meal ticket to cultural relevance was a dead end. I knew nothing about grad school until this past fall and I scrambled to get an RA position and write personal statements. It has all happened very fast.

If I am honest I would feel really weird graduating from a place called Alliant given my family history. There are three generations of Princeton grads, my sister went to Princeton then Harvard then Stanford. My grandmother got a masters degree before women were allowed to vote. Etc, etc. (I didn't get family money, but everyone in the family has money). If I was 30 years younger I would be applying to programs nationwide and expecting to move several times before my education was complete. But again, here I am. I think MSMU is the option for me. It is a pretty small cohort at 9 people and they are very serious about the program. The school is 90 years old and they have a good reputation.

This has been a very helpful conversation for me. Thank you.

 

[machinebaby]

Sounds like youve made an extremely informed decision. Happy for you. 🙂 Sending peace, power, and patience for your journey.

Thanks!! I am trying.

 

[Sanman]

Yep, I get this. And part of my circumstance has to do with the fact that I never really intended to go back to school. I realized very late in life that tethering my meal ticket to cultural relevance was a dead end. I knew nothing about grad school until this past fall and I scrambled to get an RA position and write personal statements. It has all happened very fast.

If I am honest I would feel really weird graduating from a place called Alliant given my family history. There are three generations of Princeton grads, my sister went to Princeton then Harvard then Stanford. My grandmother got a masters degree before women were allowed to vote. Etc, etc. (I didn't get family money, but everyone in the family has money). If I was 30 years younger I would be applying to programs nationwide and expecting to move several times before my education was complete. But again, here I am. I think MSMU is the option for me. It is a pretty small cohort at 9 people and they are very serious about the program. The school is 90 years old and they have a good reputation.

This has been a very helpful conversation for me. Thank you.

Good luck, hopefully it all works out as planned.

 

[machinebaby]

Good luck, hopefully it all works out as planned.

Thank you.

 

[machinebaby]

Good luck, hopefully it all works out as planned.

If you're ever in LA and want to talk Alfas, let me know! I have lots of friends in the community. Cheers.

 

[Sanman]

If you're ever in LA and want to talk Alfas, let me know! I have lots of friends in the community. Cheers.

I'm on the wrong coast, but I might have to take you up on that if I head out that way. Always happy to talk cars!

 

[machinebaby]

I'm on the wrong coast, but I might have to take you up on that if I head out that way. Always happy to talk cars!

Look forward to it. Here is my ratrod. Interior is all redone (by me). Cheers!

 

[machinebaby]

Follow up, MSMU has received APA accreditation on contingency. Follow up with distal data in 3 years.
Cheers

 

[WisNeuro]

Will the distal data include how many of their former graduates qualify for SNAP benefits due to crippling debt secondary to super high tuition and high cost of living expenses?

 

[The Cinnabon]

Follow up, MSMU has received APA accreditation on contingency. Follow up with distal data in 3 years.
Cheers

It's now achieved the absolute "bare minimum", which a lot of us already take issue with what's considered "bare minimum."

 

[machinebaby]

It's now achieved the absolute "bare minimum", which a lot of us already take issue with what's considered "bare minimum."

I suppose that it is lucky for the people at my school that no one asked you. The APA is who decides.

 

[machinebaby]

Will the distal data include how many of their former graduates qualify for SNAP benefits due to crippling debt secondary to super high tuition and high cost of living expenses?

I guess I don't know. There is a lot of attitude in your qualifiers "crippling" and "super high," as though you would have made much "smarter" choices for all the folks attending MSMU. Do you have data on the number of psychologists living on SNAP? For reference about half the students at this school are first or generation citizens, most are the first people in their families to go to college let alone grad school. Most of us work at least one job. One student had three. She is now at an APA accredited internship that she landed BEFORE the school got accredited. I initially came here asking for guidance but honestly there is so much mean spirited gatekeepy trolling here I wonder at this site's usefulness at all. I hope none of you are client facing. Probably sucks to work in your labs.

 

[jdawg2017]

I guess I don't know. There is a lot of attitude in your qualifiers "crippling" and "super high," as though you would have made much "smarter" choices for all the folks attending MSMU. Do you have data on the number of psychologists living on SNAP? For reference about half the students at this school are first or generation citizens, most are the first people in their families to go to college let alone grad school. Most of us work at least one job. One student had three. She is now at an APA accredited internship that she landed BEFORE the school got accredited. I initially came here asking for guidance but honestly there is so much mean spirited gatekeepy trolling here I wonder at this site's usefulness at all. I hope none of you are client facing. Probably sucks to work in your labs.

A lot of people on this forum can be quite sarcastic or overly direct. However, usually this comes from what I’d consider a good place. The earnings potential of psychologists is simply not consistent with 200-300k debt from doctoral training… period. Anecdotally, I know of a colleague who went to graduate school in her 40s and is still hindered by her debt in her 60s (can’t buy a house). A few close peers from unfunded doctoral programs are going to be in the same boat unless they can work at a place that offers substantial loan repayment/forgiveness.

Sometimes (or actually often) working with clients involves telling hard truths. It’s a disservice to clients, like it is to people on SDN, to pretend that a massive problem that seems okay in the immediate future (like taking out 200k in student loans for a psych doctorate) is somehow going to be okay in the long run. I hope your choice is working out well for you and those in your program, but people need to make these decisions with their eyes wide open.

 

[WisNeuro]

I guess I don't know. There is a lot of attitude in your qualifiers "crippling" and "super high," as though you would have made much "smarter" choices for all the folks attending MSMU. Do you have data on the number of psychologists living on SNAP? For reference about half the students at this school are first or generation citizens, most are the first people in their families to go to college let alone grad school. Most of us work at least one job. One student had three. She is now at an APA accredited internship that she landed BEFORE the school got accredited. I initially came here asking for guidance but honestly there is so much mean spirited gatekeepy trolling here I wonder at this site's usefulness at all. I hope none of you are client facing. Probably sucks to work in your labs.

🤣

 

[MCParent]

I just think it’s funny that we have necroposting on these threads for weak schools so often.

 

[WisNeuro]

I just think it’s funny that we have necroposting on these threads for weak schools so often.

People got to relieve that cognitive dissonance somehow.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I just think it’s funny that we have necroposting on these threads for weak schools so often.

People got to relieve that cognitive dissonance somehow.

I think some of it related to cognitive dissonance or even a vengeful "you caused me grief and I proved you wrong." Unfortunately, a lot of it is based on a misunderstanding (of our often mis-stated) argument, combined with a more relativistic viewpoint of having just graduated and got that job with a bigger paycheck that ever seen before.

The argument (at least mine) is not that every student of these programs will be non-licensable and/or hindered by staggering amounts of debt, but rather a relatively large percentage of students will be, and that these programs are based on a predatory business model of taking in students with big dreams and little other perceived options. When 1/4 or more of matriculating students don't finish or can't pass EPPP or get licensure and it cost them 5-6 figures (non refundable and very often financed!) to do so, that's the problem. The view from a year or two out may seem pretty good, but decades of 1000K/month loan payments, sold to you and predicated on the miraculous PSLF!) can change that view over time.

On the clinical side of things, I have had overwhelmingly poor direct experiences with practicum and internship students from one of the first and biggest of the predatory stand-alone PsyD warehouses. Advanced standing students with a paucity of clinical experiences and abilities, let alone knowledge, with minimal professional skills and and a "I have the right to show up late, not do the work correctly- or at all- and be a jerk to you about" attitudes. Again, this is not all students, but more the rule than the exception. On the contrary, well prepared and eager to learn (and eager and able to teach me things) students are the rule from University-based, small cohort, mentor model programs I have worked directly with.

 

[psych.meout]

I think some of it related to cognitive dissonance or even a vengeful "you caused me grief and I proved you wrong." Unfortunately, a lot of it is based on a misunderstanding (of our often mis-stated) argument, combined with a more relativistic viewpoint of having just graduated and got that job with a bigger paycheck that ever seen before.

The argument (at least mine) is not that every student of these programs will be non-licensable and/or hindered by staggering amounts of debt, but rather a relatively large percentage of students will be, and that these programs are based on a predatory business model of taking in students with big dreams and little other perceived options. When 1/4 or more of matriculating students don't finish or can't pass EPPP or get licensure and it cost them 5-6 figures (non refundable and very often financed!) to do so, that's the problem. The view from a year or two out may seem pretty good, but decades of 1000K/month loan payments, sold to you and predicated on the miraculous PSLF!) can change that view over time.

On the clinical side of things, I have had overwhelmingly poor direct experiences with practicum and internship students from one of the first and biggest of the predatory stand-alone PsyD warehouses. Advanced standing students with a paucity of clinical experiences and abilities, let alone knowledge, with minimal professional skills and and a "I have the right to show up late, not do the work correctly- or at all- and be a jerk to you about" attitudes. Again, this is not all students, but more the rule than the exception. On the contrary, well prepared and eager to learn (and eager and able to teach me things) students are the rule from University-based, small cohort, mentor model programs I have worked directly with.

It's all related to the poor understanding of statistics, probability, cognitive biases, and research methodology that led them to these sub-par (at best) programs and these programs are so bad that they don't disabuse students from these notions and often reinforce them.

E.g., they fixate on anecdotes from a graduate they know who had a good outcome and ignore the outcome stats from the website that half the students can't match for internship.

They fixate on the handful of good outcomes and don't look at modal outcomes, which tend to be bad. They also can't properly analyze and synthesize this information to discern the truth, that those graduates with good outcomes would have done well regardless of what program they attended. They succeeded in spite of their grad program, not because of it, which is the opposite of what should happen.

 

[Sanman]

I guess I don't know. There is a lot of attitude in your qualifiers "crippling" and "super high," as though you would have made much "smarter" choices for all the folks attending MSMU. Do you have data on the number of psychologists living on SNAP? For reference about half the students at this school are first or generation citizens, most are the first people in their families to go to college let alone grad school. Most of us work at least one job. One student had three. She is now at an APA accredited internship that she landed BEFORE the school got accredited. I initially came here asking for guidance but honestly there is so much mean spirited gatekeepy trolling here I wonder at this site's usefulness at all. I hope none of you are client facing. Probably sucks to work in your labs.

I know this was meant to be a positive, but that actually saddens me even more. The children of doctors, lawyers, and tech folks can get a bail out from mom and dad. These folks cannot. Now realize they will be up against a group of people that were funded and needed no job but to publish, get extra practicum experience, and be more competitive than anyone holding down three jobs during grad school could manage.

 

[ClinicalABA]

It's all related to the poor understanding of statistics, probability, cognitive biases, and research methodology that led them to these sub-par (at best) programs and these programs are so bad that they don't disabuse students from these notions and often reinforce them.

E.g., they fixate on anecdotes from a graduate they know who had a good outcome and ignore the outcome stats from the website that half the students can't match for internship.

They fixate on the handful of good outcomes and don't look at modal outcomes, which tend to be bad. They also can't properly analyze and synthesize this information to discern the truth, that those graduates with good outcomes would have done well regardless of what program they attended. They succeeded in spite of their grad program, not because of it, which is the opposite of what should happen.

I think there is also the issue of there not being enough spots in University based, mentor model programs to meet demand. In a fifty mile radius around me, there's only two of these types of clinical doctoral programs that I'm aware of (UMass Amherst and UConn) that accept-in total- 12-14 students per year total (and UMass is a clinical scientist program geared to training researchers). There is also UMass Amherst School Doctorate, with similarly only 6-10 students. Most of these will leave on internship and not look back, so there's none to hire into clinical positions. Result is that most students who are academically and professional "fit" for good doctoral training have no option but to receive a doctoral degree from bad or predatory programs, and local places who need a doctoral level psychologist can only find them from these types of programs.