MSMU PsyD

[jdawg2017]

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I know this was meant to be a positive, but that actually saddens me even more. The children of doctors, lawyers, and tech folks can get a bail out from mom and dad. These folks cannot. Now realize they will be up against a group of people that were funded and needed no job but to publish, get extra practicum experience, and be more competitive than anyone holding down three jobs during grad school could manage.

Bingo.

I hear this argument all the time - that unfunded doctoral programs are equalizers for the field. In my opinion, it’s the exact opposite - the groups who already faced social oppression, even with the best outcome, still are hurt by these programs in the long run.

 

[Sanman]

I think there is also the issue of there not being enough spots in University based, mentor model programs to meet demand. In a fifty mile radius around me, there's only two of these types of clinical doctoral programs that I'm aware of (UMass Amherst and UConn) that accept-in total- 12-14 students per year total (and UMass is a clinical scientist program geared to training researchers). There is also UMass Amherst School Doctorate, with similarly only 6-10 students. Most of these will leave on internship and not look back, so there's none to hire into clinical positions. Result is that most students who are academically and professional "fit" for good doctoral training have no option but to receive a doctoral degree from bad or predatory programs, and local places who need a doctoral level psychologist can only find them from these types of programs.

Agreed that there are not enough programs to train the number of health service providers needed. However, given the changes to billing and licensing regs in recent years, the country is leaning to the masters level folks to fill this void with commensurate decreases in pay. APA is only coming around to this now, which is decades too late.

 

[PsyDr]

..... I initially came here asking for guidance but honestly there is so much mean spirited gatekeepy trolling here I wonder at this site's usefulness at all. I hope none of you are client facing. Probably sucks to work in your labs.

1) IMO, a stern word is probably better than a lifetime of pain. If you saw a bus coming towards a pedestrian, would you say something? Would it be mean to sternly say, "Get out of the road!", or would it be a kindness? Ellis had some thoughts on the matter. Beck and Linehan have some thoughts on the matter too.

2) I am sure that almost all of the direct speakers on here have clinical wait lists.

For reference about half the students at this school are first or generation citizens, most are the first people in their families to go to college let alone grad school.

3) consider: is this more like Oxford and Harvard or is it more like Devry?

 

[R. Matey]

I hear this argument all the time - that unfunded doctoral programs are equalizers for the field. In my opinion, it’s the exact opposite - the groups who already faced social oppression, even with the best outcome, still are hurt by these programs in the long run.

Yep, nothing more than sales pitch that leverages the language of the current zeitgeist to sell a very expensive lemon.

 

[machinebaby]

I know this was meant to be a positive, but that actually saddens me even more. The children of doctors, lawyers, and tech folks can get a bail out from mom and dad. These folks cannot. Now realize they will be up against a group of people that were funded and needed no job but to publish, get extra practicum experience, and be more competitive than anyone holding down three jobs during grad school could manage.

I hear you and I think it depends on goals. Students in this school are dedicated to bringing mental health services to under-served communities. In LA at least that is a lot of folks. Does this mean a lack of a high powered, high-paying, super-competitive job? Probably. This particular school is not a predatory degree mill, but a 100 year old Catholic school founded by a centuries-old sect of nuns, the Sisters of St Joseph of Carondelet, who have been engaged in harm reduction and direct community services since the 1600s. MSMU has an extremely well regarded and established nursing doctoral program and a new PsyD program that is forthrightly focused on developing small cohorts (8 in my year) of students that are nontraditional and devoted to serving the poor and disenfranchised. Certain goals in that population are easier with a D level degree, but none of the work is easy, cushy, or lucrative. What I'm saying is, the jobs you are seeing us compete for we are not aimed at. I personaly will graduate without debt becaus eI also have outside work. I don't sleep a lot, am 56, and not confused about what I have walked into.

 

[machinebaby]

1) IMO, a stern word is probably better than a lifetime of pain. If you saw a bus coming towards a pedestrian, would you say something? Would it be mean to sternly say, "Get out of the road!", or would it be a kindness? Ellis had some thoughts on the matter. Beck and Linehan have some thoughts on the matter too.

2) I am sure that almost all of the direct speakers on here have clinical wait lists.



3) consider: is this more like Oxford and Harvard or is it more like Devry?

My school looks a lot more like Harvard than DeVry. The land was donated to the nuns by the Donheny family and hte Addams Family (the old TV show) mansion is in the center of campus. Apparently it was on a Super Bowl commercial this year, but I don't watch TV. Also, a degree here is 1/3 the cost of somewhere like Pepperdine. If you hustle, you can keep ahead of the tuition. I am.

I appreciate people yelling about the bus that is coming, what I am saying is you are yelling at someone else. My school is not a Wright Institute, Alliant, or CPSP. They have cohorts roughly 7-8x the size of ours, no admission criteria, and yes very low EPPP pass rates. I see that bus too and I am not standing anywhere near it.

 

[machinebaby]

It's all related to the poor understanding of statistics, probability, cognitive biases, and research methodology that led them to these sub-par (at best) programs and these programs are so bad that they don't disabuse students from these notions and often reinforce them.

E.g., they fixate on anecdotes from a graduate they know who had a good outcome and ignore the outcome stats from the website that half the students can't match for internship.

They fixate on the handful of good outcomes and don't look at modal outcomes, which tend to be bad. They also can't properly analyze and synthesize this information to discern the truth, that those graduates with good outcomes would have done well regardless of what program they attended. They succeeded in spite of their grad program, not because of it, which is the opposite of what should happen.

I 100% agree with this. I am writing a dissertation on autobiographical memory under a professor from UCSC. I am not confused about bias. But again, this is not a degree mill. I'll wager that in 10 years this will be just another well-regarded program. It will never be R1, and that is ok. There is a lot of good data that is not being captured to highlight support the needs of marginalized communities. We are on it.

 

[psych.meout]

I 100% agree with this. I am writing a dissertation on autobiographical memory under a professor from UCSC. I am not confused about bias. But again, this is not a degree mill. I'll wager that in 10 years this will be just another well-regarded program. It will never be R1, and that is ok. There is a lot of good data that is not being captured to highlight support the needs of marginalized communities. We are on it.

Why are you not completing your dissertation under a professor at your university?

 

[PsyDr]

My school looks a lot more like Harvard than DeVry. The land was donated to the nuns by the Donheny family and hte Addams Family (the old TV show) mansion is in the center of campus. Apparently it was on a Super Bowl commercial this year, but I don't watch TV. Also, a degree here is 1/3 the cost of somewhere like Pepperdine. If you hustle, you can keep ahead of the tuition. I am.

I appreciate people yelling about the bus that is coming, what I am saying is you are yelling at someone else. My school is not a Wright Institute, Alliant, or CPSP. They have cohorts roughly 7-8x the size of ours, no admission criteria, and yes very low EPPP pass rates. I see that bus too and I am not standing anywhere near it.

Then you have no issue with what people said, and retract your previous position?

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I hear you and I think it depends on goals. Students in this school are dedicated to bringing mental health services to under-served communities. In LA at least that is a lot of folks. Does this mean a lack of a high powered, high-paying, super-competitive job? Probably. This particular school is not a predatory degree mill, but a 100 year old Catholic school founded by a centuries-old sect of nuns, the Sisters of St Joseph of Carondelet, who have been engaged in harm reduction and direct community services since the 1600s. MSMU has an extremely well regarded and established nursing doctoral program and a new PsyD program that is forthrightly focused on developing small cohorts (8 in my year) of students that are nontraditional and devoted to serving the poor and disenfranchised. Certain goals in that population are easier with a D level degree, but none of the work is easy, cushy, or lucrative. What I'm saying is, the jobs you are seeing us compete for we are not aimed at. I personaly will graduate without debt becaus eI also have outside work. I don't sleep a lot, am 56, and not confused about what I have walked into.

You can be dedicated to bringing mental health services to under-served communities without going into extreme debt and being taken advantage of.

 

[Sanman]

I 100% agree with this. I am writing a dissertation on autobiographical memory under a professor from UCSC. I am not confused about bias. But again, this is not a degree mill. I'll wager that in 10 years this will be just another well-regarded program. It will never be R1, and that is ok. There is a lot of good data that is not being captured to highlight support the needs of marginalized comlplp]muni]p]]pties. We are on it.

I hear you and I think it depends on goals. Students in this school are dedicated to bringing mental health services to under-served communities. In LA at least that is a lot of folks. Does this mean a lack of a high powered, high-paying, super-competitive job? Probably. This particular school is not a predatory degree mill, but a 100 year old Catholic school founded by a centuries-old sect of nuns, the Sisters of St Joseph of Carondelet, who have been engaged in harm reduction and direct community services since the 1600s. MSMU has an extremely well regarded and established nursing doctoral program and a new PsyD program that is forthrightly focused on developing small cohorts (8 in my year) of students that are nontraditional and devoted to serving the poor and disenfranchised. Certain goals in that population are easier with a D level degree, but none of the work is easy, cushy, or lucrative. What I'm saying is, the jobs you are seeing us compete for we are not aimed at. I personaly will graduate without debt becaus eI also have outside work. I don't sleep a lot, am 56, and not confused about what I have walked into.

I think the confusion here is lumping a bad education in with unsustainable debt. Small cohorts are a good thing for education but does nothing for debt. The PGSP-Stanford Consortium PsyD, for example, is considered a good program but ungodly expensive for this field.

I realize that you personally had assets to sell that could fund your education. However, I am guessing some (if not most) of your cohort is attempting to fund their education through student loans and part-time work. The competition is not just for jobs. Many of us that went to school 10-20 yrs ago are all too familiar with the internship crisis/shortage in psychology. Post 2008, post-doc funding was in short supply as well. The bureau of prisons just shut down 82 internship slots this year. Some VAMCs may follow suit under this administration. Trump and the GOP are talking about ending PSLF and other loan forgiveness programs. They are also considering cutting federal funding that helps lower income folks. All of your cohort will still need internship and post-doc slots. If the goal is serving a lower income clientele, that means lower pay. Lower pay and high debt don't work well together. You still need a roof over your head and food in your belly. Add to that the likely possibility of a recessionary job market and it can mean being as broke as many of the clients you hope to help.

As someone that has worked with rural and underserved populations most of my career, the truth is that private equity is taking over that space in many areas and will continue to do so as the government retreats from these responsibilities. They often pay less than 50 percent of your billable and want you to see 35-40 clients per week. Kaiser over in CA has been accused of being similarly understaffed and pushing clinicians to the brink. For me, the choices are start my own practice or work for one of these places as the VA fires people. Can someone in a lot of debt take on more to open an office? At some point, the math has to pencil out regardless of the quality of the education received.

 

[machinebaby]

You can be dedicated to bringing mental health services to under-served communities without going into extreme debt and being taken advantage oThe assumption that I am going into extreme debt or being taken advantage of is the weird part. I'm 2.5 years in with no debt. It honestly isnt that hard to stay ahead of 22k/year if you arent lazy.

 

[R. Matey]

The assumption that I am going into extreme debt or being taken advantage of is the weird part. I'm 2.5 years in with no debt. It honestly isnt that hard to stay ahead of 22k/year if you arent lazy.

Publicly available match statistics say otherwise. If you look at the distribution of student debt, you'll see that it's trimodal where ~25-30% of applicants (largely from R1/R2s) have no debt and ~35-40% with $100k or more in debt. It's been this way for at least a decade, probably longer. You may have the resources to absorb the cost of an overly expensive program, but a 22 year old graduate student (many whom are first generation and do not know about funded programs) likely does not. I don't really see how that lifts up anyone.

 

[machinebaby]

I think the confusion here is lumping a bad education in with unsustainable debt. Small cohorts are a good thing for education but does nothing for debt. The PGSP-Stanford Consortium PsyD, for example, is considered a good program but ungodly expensive for this field.

I realize that you personally had assets to sell that could fund your education. However, I am guessing some (if not most) of your cohort is attempting to fund their education through student loans and part-time work. The competition is not just for jobs. Many of us that went to school 10-20 yrs ago are all too familiar with the internship crisis/shortage in psychology. Post 2008, post-doc funding was in short supply as well. The bureau of prisons just shut down 82 internship slots this year. Some VAMCs may follow suit under this administration. Trump and the GOP are talking about ending PSLF and other loan forgiveness programs. They are also considering cutting federal funding that helps lower income folks. All of your cohort will still need internship and post-doc slots. If the goal is serving a lower income clientele, that means lower pay. Lower pay and high debt don't work well together. You still need a roof over your head and food in your belly. Add to that the likely possibility of a recessionary job market and it can mean being as broke as many of the clients you hope to help.

As someone that has worked with rural and underserved populations most of my career, the truth is that private equity is taking over that space in many areas and will continue to do so as the government retreats from these responsibilities. They often pay less than 50 percent of your billable and want you to see 35-40 clients per week. Kaiser over in CA has been accused of being similarly understaffed and pushing clinicians to the brink. For me, the choices are start my own practice or work for one of these places as the VA fires people. Can someone in a lot of debt take on more to open an office? At some point, the math has to pencil out regardless of the quality of the education received.

PGSP is more than twice as expensive as my program. I do have assets to sell, but it turns out I haven't had to yet. With side work I have covered my expenses and tuition so far. I may yet sell something and if I do I'll be okay with it, but I may make it to internship in 18 months without that happening. Frugality goes a long way. I don't know the finances of many of my peers but most live in multigenerational homes as is customary in their culture and work jobs to address tuition. I've been broke in my life, living in my car broke, and lived through several recessions. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me to worry about how things will be at their worst, given that even 2008 led to a turnaround. The Trump administration stuff is scary for sure. I am not sure what to say about that, we will see where his cuts end up after they go through the courts. Today is match day, hopefully people are finding spots to train at despite the cuts.
I hear everyone saying that only fully funded R1 programs are worth attending but I humbly disagree. Do places like Alliant sucker folks into expensive dead ends? Yes. Is it a great trajectory to attend a funded PhD program? I'll bet it is. I graduated my BA with a 4.0, 15 years of clinical experience, but only one year of research assisting and didn't get into any of the 8 R1 programs I appied to. I am never going to be that guy who beats out 900 other people for one of two funded spots. I am saying there is a middle way to everything including doctoral training. The thinking I am running into on here, not yours, doesn't feel like it is coming from "direct talk" people who are trying to save me from a bus hitting me that I can't see coming. It feels like snide, gotcha teasing dressed up as wisdom.

 

[machinebaby]

Publicly available match statistics say otherwise. If you look at the distribution of student debt, you'll see that it's trimodal where ~25-30% of applicants (largely from R1/R2s) have no debt and ~35-40% with $100k or more in debt. It's been this way for at least a decade, probably longer. You may have the resources to absorb the cost of an overly expensive program, but a 22 year old graduate student (many whom are first generation and do not know about funded programs) likely does not. I don't really see how that lifts up anyone.

5/8 in my cohort attended UC schools including UCLA, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. Everyone knew about funded programs including my friend who was handed across the border as an infant and served 8 years in the military. School debt is a scary thing, and funded programs are great. I am sure some people will live with debt, but it is possible to prioritize and come through okay. Make your own food, carpool, work on the side, and give up creature comforts. It isnt that hard.

 

[R. Matey]

5/8 in my cohort attended UC schools including UCLA, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. Everyone knew about funded programs including my friend who was handed across the border as an infant and served 8 years in the military. School debt is a scary thing, and funded programs are great. I am sure some people will live with debt, but it is possible to prioritize and come through okay. Make your own food, carpool, work on the side, and give up creature comforts. It isnt that hard.

Fine if you know the risks and choose to ignore them. I'm writing to people who don't.

 

[machinebaby]

Why are you not completing your dissertation under a professor at your university?

Good question. My chair is at my school but no one here knows enough about memory to check my work.

 

[MCParent]

5/8 in my cohort attended UC schools including UCLA, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. Everyone knew about funded programs including my friend who was handed across the border as an infant and served 8 years in the military. School debt is a scary thing, and funded programs are great. I am sure some people will live with debt, but it is possible to prioritize and come through okay. Make your own food, carpool, work on the side, and give up creature comforts. It isnt that hard.

I can’t believe I get to say it.

Ok boomer.

I’m a first gen college student. Parents never graduated high school. Grew up very poor. The idea of taking on any debt at all for school, much less also working during school while I was focused on an r1 job, would have been a nonstarter.

These a schools aren’t doing anyone a favor.

 

[psych.meout]

I can’t believe I get to say it.

Ok boomer.

I’m a first gen college student. Parents never graduated high school. Grew up very poor. The idea of taking on any debt at all for school, much less also working during school while I was focused on an r1 job, would have been a nonstarter.

These a schools aren’t doing anyone a favor.

It's so backwards how these schools market themselves to underrepresented, marginalized, and non-traditional students. How is getting into an unfunded program that will put you into 6 figures of debt helping students from these groups while fully funded programs are supposedly for affluent and privileged students and/or the programs who are really taking advantage of students because they have to TA or RA as part of their funding?

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Aren't a lot of these places just charlatanry? I met a dude who ran one (one of the high end money ones in CA), and he was a straight up salesman. A psychologist by training, but essentially Jimmy McGill in real life.

Hopefully the future will see more SMART Recovery and cognitive-behavioral, evidence-based theoretical orientations gain more prominence. Unfortunately, the 12-step approach appears to still enjoy absolute dominance in SUDS programs. In my experience, there can be great providers who appear to genuinely care for their patients but the area is also rife with personality disorders (in staff and patients) with an unfortunately broad niche for narcissistic/antisocial grandiose extraverted types using the power as their own personal playground. And, unfortunately, the stigma/bias against those with substance abuse disorders (e.g., that they are 'always lying' and just rife with all those 'character defects') make them an extremely easy population for these types to prey upon and to abuse. I have also seen it demoralize (early on) people early in recovery who don't actually fit the stereotype of a 'horrible, antisocial person who has been completely selfish and horrible to everyone in their lives' but who are just trying to address their alcohol/drug abuse.

 

[WisNeuro]

Did someone just claim that everyone who could not afford 35K in tuition, plus textbooks, plus living expenses while living in LA, while pursuing doctoral education is lazy?

 

[machinebaby]

Did someone just claim that everyone who could not afford 35K in tuition, plus textbooks, plus living expenses while living in LA, while pursuing doctoral education is lazy?

Are you intentionally misreading what I said? I said 22k. The responsibilities of TAing and RAing in an R1 or R2 school take up easily as much time as a substantial part time job, maybe full time. Spend that time working, have a poor work/life balance, and you can stay afloat for the 4 years you are not in internship.

 

[machinebaby]

I can’t believe I get to say it.

Ok boomer.

I’m a first gen college student. Parents never graduated high school. Grew up very poor. The idea of taking on any debt at all for school, much less also working during school while I was focused on an r1 job, would have been a nonstarter.

These a schools aren’t doing anyone a favor.

Well that was fun being called a boomer, but I feel like that term is applied when someone is saying the kids life is easy based on how they did it a long time ago. I am doing it now. Eat ramen and cheap veggies. The school has a food program. Take on a roommate, which is humbling at my age. Find PDFs of books and share them or get them from the library. Side hustle.

What I am saying is that the school I am referring to doesn't have any R1 jobs. So what if the time you spent doing that R1 job you spent earning money? Then you aren't graduating with six figures of debt.

I think the issue we are having is that the "these schools" lump includes a broad range of institutions from PGSP to USF to Pepperdine, Pacifica, Alliant, CPSP, Fielding, and on and on, when aggressive marketing, lack of support, and other for profit institution motivated practices is more of an issue with a small number of those places. My school is nonprofit, small cohort, and supportive of and engaged with its students.

 

[machinebaby]

Hopefully the future will see more SMART Recovery and cognitive-behavioral, evidence-based theoretical orientations gain more prominence. Unfortunately, the 12-step approach appears to still enjoy absolute dominance in SUDS programs. In my experience, there can be great providers who appear to genuinely care for their patients but the area is also rife with personality disorders (in staff and patients) with an unfortunately broad niche for narcissistic/antisocial grandiose extraverted types using the power as their own personal playground. And, unfortunately, the stigma/bias against those with substance abuse disorders (e.g., that they are 'always lying' and just rife with all those 'character defects') make them an extremely easy population for these types to prey upon and to abuse. I have also seen it demoralize (early on) people early in recovery who don't actually fit the stereotype of a 'horrible, antisocial person who has been completely selfish and horrible to everyone in their lives' but who are just trying to address their alcohol/drug abuse.

So many Jimmy McGills in the SUD space. I started in 2006 and the number of totally immoral things going on was alarming. I agree with your points. There has been a shift towards clinically-oriented programs, but not enough yet. BDMA is a shift away from the moral model, but still leaves a lack of hope for change that undermines the SMART, CBT approach you're describing. NIH needs to change too, which I think wil open up more reseearch funding into clinically-focused methods of addressing drug and alcohol use without relying on a wholesale overhaul of the personality for it to be effective. Susan Collins (and Alan Marlatt before her) and others are pointing a way forward not based on abstinence that could address the suffering people are experiencing more effectively. Fingers crossed.

 

[MCParent]

Well that was fun being called a boomer, but I feel like that term is applied when someone is saying the kids life is easy based on how they did it a long time ago. I am doing it now. Eat ramen and cheap veggies. The school has a food program. Take on a roommate, which is humbling at my age. Find PDFs of books and share them or get them from the library. Side hustle.

What I am saying is that the school I am referring to doesn't have any R1 jobs. So what if the time you spent doing that R1 job you spent earning money? Then you aren't graduating with six figures of debt.

I think the issue we are having is that the "these schools" lump includes a broad range of institutions from PGSP to USF to Pepperdine, Pacifica, Alliant, CPSP, Fielding, and on and on, when aggressive marketing, lack of support, and other for profit institution motivated practices is more of an issue with a small number of those places. My school is nonprofit, small cohort, and supportive of and engaged with its students.

Nonprofit is a legal distinction that’s mostly meaningless. Most state universities are nonprofits legally. Ultra corrupt charities that pay their ceos a billion dollars are nonprofits.

I wouldn’t lump pgsp with those Alliant and its ilk. Pgsp is super expensive but the faculty and training are super good from what I’ve seen.

I do not think your understanding of finances is realistic. Maybe if the school were in Mobile Alabama.

 

[Dazen]

Well that was fun being called a boomer, but I feel like that term is applied when someone is saying the kids life is easy based on how they did it a long time ago. I am doing it now. Eat ramen and cheap veggies. The school has a food program. Take on a roommate, which is humbling at my age. Find PDFs of books and share them or get them from the library. Side hustle.

What I am saying is that the school I am referring to doesn't have any R1 jobs. So what if the time you spent doing that R1 job you spent earning money? Then you aren't graduating with six figures of debt.

I think the issue we are having is that the "these schools" lump includes a broad range of institutions from PGSP to USF to Pepperdine, Pacifica, Alliant, CPSP, Fielding, and on and on, when aggressive marketing, lack of support, and other for profit institution motivated practices is more of an issue with a small number of those places. My school is nonprofit, small cohort, and supportive of and engaged with its students.

My contention with this is that the R1 jobs (usually) provide additional training and help build your resume for a future career. RA positions especially can help you get on more publications and spend more time refining your research skills. TA/teaching can also look very good, especially for academic jobs. I imagine that any part-time job you find that will be flexible enough to accommodate your school schedule will likely not be building your skill set as a psychologist. IMO you're losing out on a significant amount of training by having a part-time job instead of an R1 position and I would worry that it could impact the competitiveness of your CV in applying to internships, etc.

 

[machinebaby]

Nonprofit is a legal distinction that’s mostly meaningless. Most state universities are nonprofits legally. Ultra corrupt charities that pay their ceos a billion dollars are nonprofits.

I wouldn’t lump pgsp with those Alliant and its ilk. Pgsp is super expensive but the faculty and training are super good from what I’ve seen.

I do not think your understanding of finances is realistic. Maybe if the school were in Mobile Alabama.

So then you are lumping my program in with Alliant?

I don't know what else to tell you. I am 2.5 years in and debt free using this method I have 1.5 years before internship. I guess the first test will be if I match anywhere next year.

 

[machinebaby]

My contention with this is that the R1 jobs (usually) provide additional training and help build your resume for a future career. RA positions especially can help you get on more publications and spend more time refining your research skills. TA/teaching can also look very good, especially for academic jobs. I imagine that any part-time job you find that will be flexible enough to accommodate your school schedule will likely not be building your skill set as a psychologist. IMO you're losing out on a significant amount of training by having a part-time job instead of an R1 position and I would worry that it could impact the competitiveness of your CV in applying to internships, etc.

This is all true. Again, I didn't get into an R1 program and I doubt I would have even if I had taken a research year before reapplying given the competitiveness of the labs I am interested in. I would have gone to an R1 if I had the chance, but I do feel like I made a valid choice.

The internship and career competition aspect is something I think a lot about. We will see if I match next year. Beyond internship, the impact of a non-R1 school CV depends on the kind of career track someone is focused on. LA DMH is aggressively hiring, for example, and they will pay off a significant portion of debt, if someone had it. I am on my second DMH externship and have excellent relationships with both supervisors, so I feel I could go that route if I wanted to. Also, getting a job in a residential SUD tx center with my resume would not be difficult. I doubt I would be competitive at the VA, but I never wanted to work there anyway. I have TA'd two courses in our program and am already teaching at two master's level programs, so maybe more of that? I have a paper out for publication (fingers crossed) and have presented at three confrences on work I produced without the backing of a lab or any reserach infrastructure. I am on a LACPA committee and an APA division committee. I run two meditation classes that I started and offer for free to the community. I volunteer on skid row. I know that R1 CVs have more to say than that, but I am doing okay. Again, I have no idea if I will match next year but I am doing what I can with what I have. A 10 year aim is to open a Buddhist hospice in Los Angeles and I feel my training and degree will help me secure some funding for that but maybe not.

 

[psych.meout]

Are you intentionally misreading what I said? I said 22k. The responsibilities of TAing and RAing in an R1 or R2 school take up easily as much time as a substantial part time job, maybe full time. Spend that time working, have a poor work/life balance, and you can stay afloat for the 4 years you are not in internship.

I can only speak to my program, but having been both a TA and RA, the time commitment was never what I would consider to be a "substantial part-time job." There are a couple of weeks each semester (e.g., finals) that are more of a commitment, but generally it was a couple of hours per week max. My stipend alone would require $40/hour even with a 10 hour/week job and I definitely wasn't spending 10 hours/week on TA/RA stuff. Adding in full tuition remission and free health insurance, TA/RA is absolutely worth it many times over without even factoring in the beenfits to my CV, internship interview content, etc.

Nonprofit is a legal distinction that’s mostly meaningless. Most state universities are nonprofits legally. Ultra corrupt charities that pay their ceos a billion dollars are nonprofits.

The NFL was a non-profit for half a century.

I wouldn’t lump pgsp with those Alliant and its ilk. Pgsp is super expensive but the faculty and training are super good from what I’ve seen.

I do not think your understanding of finances is realistic. Maybe if the school were in Mobile Alabama.

This is admittedly entirely anecdotal, but I've met a few PGSP grads and let's say I wasn't very impressed. Maybe the few I met were exceptions, but I have no idea.

This is all true. Again, I didn't get into an R1 program and I doubt I would have even if I had taken a research year before reapplying given the competitiveness of the labs I am interested in. I would have gone to an R1 if I had the chance, but I do feel like I made a valid choice.

The internship and career competition aspect is something I think a lot about. We will see if I match next year. Beyond internship, the impact of a non-R1 school CV depends on the kind of career track someone is focused on. LA DMH is aggressively hiring, for example, and they will pay off a significant portion of debt, if someone had it. I am on my second DMH externship and have excellent relationships with both supervisors, so I feel I could go that route if I wanted to. Also, getting a job in a residential SUD tx center with my resume would not be difficult. I doubt I would be competitive at the VA, but I never wanted to work there anyway. I have TA'd two courses in our program and am already teaching at two master's level programs, so maybe more of that? I have a paper out for publication (fingers crossed) and have presented at three confrences on work I produced without the backing of a lab or any reserach infrastructure. I am on a LACPA committee and an APA division committee. I run two meditation classes that I started and offer for free to the community. I volunteer on skid row. I know that R1 CVs have more to say than that, but I am doing okay. Again, I have no idea if I will match next year but I am doing what I can with what I have. A 10 year aim is to open a Buddhist hospice in Los Angeles and I feel my training and degree will help me secure some funding for that but maybe not.

Really buring the lede.

 

[chicandtoughness]

LA DMH is aggressively hiring, for example, and they will pay off a significant portion of debt, if someone had it. I am on my second DMH externship and have excellent relationships with both supervisors, so I feel I could go that route if I wanted to. Also, getting a job in a residential SUD tx center with my resume would not be difficult. I doubt I would be competitive at the VA, but I never wanted to work there anyway.

I’m not trying to push back against your decision, just genuinely curious. Why did you choose PsyD vs LCSW/LMFT/LPCC? LA DMH and SUD RTCs are faaaaar more apt to hire midlevels than they will PsyDs who demand more money. I work for a national company who owns a host of SUD facilities (many in the LA area that you are probably thinking of), and trust me, we would rather hire midlevels (and associate midlevels at that) than a doctorate. The career tracks you’re describing didn’t need a 150k+ unfunded doctoral program for you to be competitive for them :/

 

[MCParent]

This is admittedly entirely anecdotal, but I've met a few PGSP grads and let's say I wasn't very impressed. Maybe the few I met were exceptions, but I have no idea.

I only know/knew some of the research focused professors and their students so it is fully possible it’s my sample that’s biased; the ones I met were excellent in the contexts I knew them.

 

[psych.meout]

I only know/knew some of the research focused professors and their students so it is fully possible it’s my sample that’s biased; the ones I met were excellent in the contexts I knew them.

The one's I've known were clinically-focused, so that may account for our different experiences.

 

[machinebaby]

I’m not trying to push back against your decision, just genuinely curious. Why did you choose PsyD vs LCSW/LMFT/LPCC? LA DMH and SUD RTCs are faaaaar more apt to hire midlevels than they will PsyDs who demand more money. I work for a national company who owns a host of SUD facilities (many in the LA area that you are probably thinking of), and trust me, we would rather hire midlevels (and associate midlevels at that) than a doctorate. The career tracks you’re describing didn’t need a 150k+ unfunded doctoral program for you to be competitive for them :/

Thanks for asking. I can guess at the company you work for. Reasons for PsyD over masters level include I want the ability to do assessments, I want to contribute a small amount to the literature/knowledge in the field, and, I guess, working 15 years in inpatient SUD with an interdisciplinary treatment team and watching the role played by D level clinicians vs M level clinicians had something to do with it too. I would like to be a clinical director if I go back into SUD and docotral level degrees do seem to be required for that position.

 

[DoubtfulDoc]

I would wait until they are APA accredited if they are in the process, and reapply to more schools next cycle.

You could ask to defer until they get APA accrediditafion? It may not be allowed under their university policies but you could ask.

 

[bluecolourskies]

You could ask to defer until they get APA accrediditafion? It may not be allowed under their university policies but you could ask.

Thats what I did!