MSTP & admissions/application advice

[CrusaderMedic]

Hi all....I'm new here, and I'm sure this type of question is asked all the time as it seems like everyone here needs a pat on the back or a swift kick in the rear to get them going in the right direction. So here goes, and I'll get ready for either one that comes to me.......I'm shopping around for MSTP programs to apply for next year, and I'm wondering what shot I really have at getting into any of these (e.g. University of Colorodo HSC MD/PhD). I applied for several medical schools right after I got my undergrad degree (got two BA/BS w/ only 2.9 gpa), I got a 31R on the MCAT (10P11V10B)...but still got rejected. In the mean time I've been serving as a medical platoon leader in Iraq, and then as an executive officer of a forward deployed combat support hospital, and then as a clinical lab officer (think manager/lab tech). In this time I've also completed my MS in Bioinformatics from JHU w/a 4.0.....the only thing is can these things be enough to offset my bad performance as an undergrad and will my job experience offset the lack of actual research time when applying to these MSTP programs (UCHSC & Washington University)?? I'm currently retiring from the military....I'm only 29 years old, so should try to fnd somewhere to do more research or should I just apply and if i get rejected take that one as course of action B?? I just keep looking at the admissions statistics for those programs and envision those accepted as child prodigies and not somebody who has had a slightly longer road to travel??

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[beary]

Hi Crusader!

Welcome to SDN, and thanks for your service in the military!

I think you are right that folks starting MSTPs or combined MD/PhD programs tend to be a bit younger/more "traditional" than in med school as a whole. I think a lot of that is because becoming a physician scientist is a LONG HAUL. I started an MSTP at 21 and am in my first year of residency at 28 and already don't see myself doing full residency/fellowship training AND a post-doc AND becoming an assistant professor on a tenure track. Too long. When I was 21, I never in a million years thought I would say that. But I have just reached a point where I am sick of being in training and want to be done. This has happened to everybody I know.

MSTP admissions are more competitive than med school admissions. Research experience is a must. It sounded from your post than you had little or no research experience. If that's true, I would definitely take some time working in a lab. (Also, you might not like it! Which would save you a lot of heartache later on, finding that out in graduate school.)

I might also point you towards the MSTP/physician scientist forum here to get more info from any MSTP non-trads. Best wishes to you!

 

[ntmed]

I have an MD/PhD.

Your 4.0 graduate GPA will definitely help. But it would have helped more if your degree was in a premed science (biology, chemistry, physics). The main thing is for you to demonstrate that you can get A's in these types of courses.

Regarding the MSTP, I agree with the other poster that these are very competitive programs, and it is likely that you'll need more research experience (and possibly more post-bacc science coursework) to get in.

HOWEVER, you have other options. If you are thinking of Internal Medicine, you can get your PhD as part of your residency. This isn't a bad way to go, since you'll get your MD and the bulk of your residency out of the way before doing research. Look at http://www.abim.org/cert/respath_pp.shtm for more information.

 

[1Path]

Hi all....I'm new here, and I'm sure this type of question is asked all the time as it seems like everyone here needs a pat on the back or a swift kick in the rear to get them going in the right direction.

Old future MD/PhD here (and wife of retired Naval officer ).

Given you prior military service, I'd seriously consider USUHS. They have an MD/PhD program now and if you're worried about their rep, simply do your dissertation at the NIH wihich is across the street.

Of course if you're more interested in MSTP MD/PhD than MD/PhD, ignore my advice!

 

[CrusaderMedic]

I've looked at the USUHS program quite a bit, but I think my wife would divorce me if I went back to the military....my first three years after our marriage I ended up spending away from home....Irag-Korea-(statside for a month) then Iraq. So, that might not be an easy sell.

Your 4.0 graduate GPA will definitely help. But it would have helped more if your degree was in a premed science (biology, chemistry, physics). The main thing is for you to demonstrate that you can get A's in these types of courses.

That's actually a common misconception......Bioinformatics is a fancy word for computational biology, so many of the courses I took were in molecular biology, cell biology, immunology, human molecular genetics, biostatistics along with lots of computer science. That's the reason I chose the degree b/c I could say that the skills that I have can be applied to any research that I wanted to pursue, such as I can do computational analysis on structure & sequence that other scientists probably don't know how to do. On the chemistry & physics thing.....would re-taking the MCAT (which I'll have to do anyways) and higher on the physical sciences section help me out almost as much as re-taking my pre-requisite courses?

 

[CrusaderMedic]

I've already posted this in the non-traditional student section, but I was told I might get more MSTP savy viewers here......I'm shopping around for MSTP programs to apply for next year, and I'm wondering what shot I really have at getting into any of these (e.g. University of Colorodo HSC MD/PhD). I applied for several medical schools right after I got my undergrad degree (got two BA/BS w/ only 2.9 gpa), I got a 31R on the MCAT (10P11V10B)...but still got rejected. In the mean time I've been serving as a medical platoon leader in Iraq, and then as an executive officer of a forward deployed combat support hospital, and then as a clinical lab officer (I run a clinical lab section, supervising 40+ people). In this time I've also completed my MS in Bioinformatics (think computational biology) from JHU w/a 4.0.....the only thing is can these things be enough to offset my bad performance as an undergrad and will my job experience offset the lack of actual research time (with my job I've spent a lot of time in the lab just not on actual "research projects") when applying to these MSTP programs (UCHSC & Washington University)?? I'm currently retiring from the military....I'm only 29 years old, so should try to fnd somewhere to do more research or should I just apply and if i get rejected take that one as course of action B?? I just keep looking at the admissions statistics for those programs and envision those accepted as child prodigies and not somebody who has had a slightly longer road to travel??

 

[1Path]

That's actually a common misconception......Bioinformatics is a fancy word for computational biology, so many of the courses I took were in molecular biology, cell biology, immunology, human molecular genetics, biostatistics along with lots of computer science.

I can't for the life of me figure out why more people don't know what Bioinformatics is all about because cleary medicine in the future will be based in large part, if not entirely on info gained from this field (of course, we use it now, at least I do but I expect an exponential growth in this area). And a 4.0 from Hopkins, man that's great! I know from experience that the classes there are VERY tough! So I'd think that with a decent MCAT, some recent experience, you should certainly have a decent shot at MD/PhD. MSTP MD/PhD however, may be a different story because of the numbers game played in those programs.

 

[efex101]

Like others have stated MSTP is *very* competitive and those that apply have substantial research background (from multiple summers to years of research) in a lab setting doing basic science research. The MCAT score and GPA of those applying is for the most part "higher" than of those that apply regular MD. MSTP is very big commitment and to really know if this is your thing you need to have done quite some time in a lab setting doing basic science research.

 

[CrusaderMedic]

My next question is what qualifies as lab research experience ........what I've been doing for the last hmm, almost two years is run a lab section doing: PCR, dna extractions, blood typing, anti-body screens and all types of microscopy...does that count as lab experience or should I find some type of more general directed research environment?

 

[gersh489]

I am no expert... just an applicant like you. But from everything I have read/heard... its not necessary to be a child prodegy! My GPA is NOT perfect, though my MCAT score is fairly high... but unlike you I lack clinical experience and I have not taken courses from a big name school. I think the place you would run into problems would be the deficit in research that you mention (was there research attached to your MS from JHU?). I have been getting interview invites with a deficit in clinical exposure and strength in research... so maybe it would balance out for you too (I would guess you would be very competitive for an MD only program... but would want more research to apply MSTP). Many of these programs do appear to want physician SCIENTISTS... though I am sure others have the opposite emphasis.

Good luck!

 

[CrusaderMedic]

There was research....but I'm not sure if two semesters of independent research was quite what they were looking for?? Who knows.....the only other thing I'm slightly worried about is my age, and if they'll still consider me a viable applicant at 29....

 

[QofQuimica]

My next question is what qualifies as lab research experience ........what I've been doing for the last hmm, almost two years is run a lab section doing: PCR, dna extractions, blood typing, anti-body screens and all types of microscopy...does that count as lab experience or should I find some type of more general directed research environment?

Are you doing actual research projects, or are you working more as a tech? Since you are an older applicant, the expectations are going to be higher of you, in my experience. Do you have publications or anything else to show that that you have any independence in the lab? Even if you make significant intellectual contributions to your work, you need to be able to document that fact. What about your MS; did any papers come out of that? Or a thesis? Presentations at a conference? Any record at all? I think if you have no publication record whatsoever, you should probably look into getting involved with an actual project before you reapply. The work you do as a tech is nothing like the work you do as a PhD-level investigator, and you need to demonstrate that you have the potential to be a PI some day, not just the ability to pipet things into test tubes.

Also, I'm sure you already know this, but with those stats, you are going to be really facing an uphill battle. Your MCAT is good, but it's about average for allopathic straight MD applicants, and it's below average for most if not all MD/PhD programs. Your grad GPA is great, but unfortunately it will probably never entirely make up for an UG GPA that is way lower than any school's average (and below 3.0 to boot, which might mean you get rejected pre-secondary from many schools that screen). I'm not trying to talk you out of applying to MD/PhD programs, but I think you will have to do some major damage control before you do apply. Your main weakness as far as stats go is your GPA; I'd leave the MCAT alone for now and try to get that UG GPA above a 3.0 if at all possible. You will probably need to take more advanced UG level classes in the sciences to do this (biochem, physiology, etc.).

I would advise you to pick your schools very carefully, as well. Picking the right schools can mean the difference between another round of being rejected everywhere versus getting interviewed and an eventual acceptance. I think you may need to re-evaluate where you are applying, and also apply to more schools and a greater variety of them. For example, you mentioned Wash U; do you realize that their average MCAT score is a *38* and their average UG GPA is a *3.9*? That doesn't mean you shouldn't apply there if you really love the school (you never know, after all). But you need to go into this with the understanding that your stats are not at all competitive for their program, so Wash U is a major reach school for you. It would be great if things work out at Wash U, but you definitely should have a plan B.

Is there one school you are particularly interested in attending? If so, I think your first step should be to talk to them about what you can do to make your application as competitive as possible. Or, alternatively, you can contact your state school (U Colorado?) and talk to them. Come up with a plan of action, and start shoring up your app so that you can give yourself the best possible chance the next time around.

I hope this post hasn't been too much of a downer, and I wish you the best of with your applications.

 

[dr.z]

There was research....but I'm not sure if two semesters of independent research was quite what they were looking for?? Who knows.....the only other thing I'm slightly worried about is my age, and if they'll still consider me a viable applicant at 29....

Only unfortunate thing is that medical schools put a lot more weight on the undergrad GPA so having 4.0 for masters doesn't help as much. You should apply to just the MD only programs too and consider doing Ph.D once you start school.

 

[mrs.smith]

...I'm wondering what shot I really have at getting into any of these (e.g. University of Colorodo HSC MD/PhD)...

I got a 31R on the MCAT (10P11V10B)...

will my job experience offset the lack of actual research time...

Ok, so I'm also older non-trad, applied to UCHSC MSTP this cycle and got my rejection last week. Learn from me, I was told:

1) MCAT is extremely important to land one of the ~30 interview slots. MCAT 32+ preferred. The average MCAT for those interviewed is 34, higher for those accepted. Also, note that scores are only good for 3yrs so you may have to retake.
2) Research experience crucial - they want to see extensive and broad research effort (ie. more than one type of lab/research). I only had one lab for almost 2 years doing the same area of research. They wanted more diversity and said publications were a good boost to any app.
3) My GPA is a 3.82 from my most recent university, much lower from my UG way back right out of highschool. They only seemed to care about the more recent science coursework (even commented on how strong my coursework is) so the old stuff seemed to be de-emphasized because of recent GPA.
4) I had awesome letters, interesting work experience (you do too!), and good life experience that made for great personal statements - all were very, very strong according to the committee, but still not enough to make up for the lack of research diversity and my 30 MCAT.

PM me if you have other questions. Good luck!

 

[mrs.smith]

I'm wondering what shot I really have at getting into any of these (e.g. University of Colorodo HSC MD/PhD)

CrusaderMedic, I answered with info about Colorado on the Physician Scientist Thread.

mrs.smith

 

[CrusaderMedic]

cool, thank you......

 

[gbwillner]

Ok, coming from a 7yr MSTP, I have to say....

1. Schools care a great deal about your undergraduate GPA. Having a 4.0 in a masters might help a little bit, but they need a way to DIRECTLY compare you to other applicants, and they do this with the undergrad GPA. Most other applicants will not have a masters, so that's an unfair comparison. A 2.9 GPA is, quite frankly, terrible. This doesn't mean you won't get in though, because schools like diversity and interesting students. You are certainly the latter.

2. Research experience is an absolute must for an MSTP, and you can get away with "less" with stellar grades and MCAT scores. You don't need a "reserch project". Being a lab technician counts- as long as you're actually doing research that's what matters. But your claim of "spending time in the lab" is too vague. What does this mean? What kind of lab was it?

3. Your age. You are old. Think about this, you are 29 now. MSTP is on average 8 years (could be 7, could be 12). Residency is 3-6. You have a strong possibility of being 45 years old before even thinking of a fellowship. Schools look down on this, but do make exceptions.

4. My advice is, if you really want to do an MSTP, get your head checked. Just kidding- I would solidify your research, and then apply to MANY, MANY schools. At least 20. One is bound to accept you.

 

[CrusaderMedic]

I was running a clinical lab section in a hospital doing blood typing, anti-body screens, pcr, lots of pathology, urinalysis, g6p, and any number of other tests hospitals do on a regular basis.....so, not really research but working projects.

 

[gbwillner]

I'm not really sure that counts... anyone else have an opinion on this? I would think that as a techician in a science lab you would still be exposed to the scientific process, but I'm just not sure how far this type of work will get you for MSTP. I bet medical school will love it, though.

 

[1Path]

3. Your age. You are old.

 

[CrusaderMedic]

Hmm......yeah, I guess in 10 years or so I'll be ready for the nursing home, I'll be totally useless.

 

[RxnMan]

Crusader, I spoke to the UCHSC MD/PhD director a few times, and from what he told me, you'd have a tough time getting in there. I was in a different situation - low UGPA, high grad GPA, high MCAT (above ave. MSTP), lots of pubs and research experience (both as a lab monkey and as an independent researcher). He informed me that I would be a hard sell to get into MD schools, let alone a MD/PhD. I chose not to go for it.

Now, depending on where you apply, you can get into a PhD program easily once you've done your 1st or 2nd year of MD classes. These may not be fully funded (you'll get tuition waivers and a stipend for the PhD, but you'll pay for your MD,) but you can still do what you want, which is presumably medical research in an academic center.

But there are other ways of doing this. At UCHSC, I know the pulmonology program (at least) gives you the chance to get your PhD in fellowship (which occurs after a 3-year IM residency). At least then you'd get paid better than a resident and you'd end up with the same science training.

I've also met many successful researchers who "only" have the MD. From what I've seen, it's easier to get funding as an MD than a PhD (of course a MD/PhD trumps).

 

[RxnMan]

I'm not really sure that counts... anyone else have an opinion on this? I would think that as a techician in a science lab you would still be exposed to the scientific process, but I'm just not sure how far this type of work will get you for MSTP. I bet medical school will love it, though.

While something is better than nothing, and I suppose many times applicants will pass off their PI's thoughts as "independent research," they prefer seeing people design their own experiments and pubs, etc.

 

[gbwillner]

Hmm......yeah, I guess in 10 years or so I'll be ready for the nursing home, I'll be totally useless.

Haha... no, I think I sense sarcasm? Anyway, the point is that schools are making an investment in their MD/PhDs, and you will certainly have a shorter career than most. In 10 years you will be lucky to be starting residency. Your attending could be 10 years younger than you.

In my 1st year medical school class in 2000, the oldest student was 35, who was making a career change. He was the only student above 26 that I know of in a class of 165 or so. You think that's a coincidence? You don't think older applicants tried to get in?

 

[gbwillner]

While something is better than nothing, and I suppose many times applicants will pass off their PI's thoughts as "independent research," they prefer seeing people design their own experiments and pubs, etc.

I got the impression that the submitter did not work in a research lab but a diagnostic one.

 

[RxnMan]

I got the impression that the submitter did not work in a research lab but a diagnostic one.

I agree - it seems that the OP worked in a hospital's diagnostic lab, not a research lab. I was responding to your question - when I see: "working in a science lab," I think: "doing tests your PI tells you to, in order to test a hypothesis about a property of nature." I wasn't even considering diagnostic testing. Diagnostic labwork, which doesn't require the same level of thought as research labwork, shouldn't be considered towards research experience.

 

[gbwillner]

I've also met many successful researchers who "only" have the MD. From what I've seen, it's easier to get funding as an MD than a PhD (of course a MD/PhD trumps).

I don't really think this is true or a fair statement. Technically, this MIGHT be somewhat true because there is more funding opportunities for clinical research than for basic research. This is like testing if drug A is better for treating disease B than drug B kind of stuff. But that's at least misleading because doctors are more likely to do clinical research than basic research and scientists are the opposite. However, if you are talking about basic research, then PhD>>>>>MD.

 

[1Path]

He was the only student above 26 that I know of in a class of 165 or so. You think that's a coincidence? You don't think older applicants tried to get in?

I'm just wondering how sorry the OP is he started this thread HERE in the first place!

 

[RxnMan]

I don't really think this is true or a fair statement. Technically, this MIGHT be somewhat true because there is more funding opportunities for clinical research than for basic research. This is like testing if drug A is better for treating disease B than drug B kind of stuff. But that's at least misleading because doctors are more likely to do clinical research than basic research and scientists are the opposite. However, if you are talking about basic research, then PhD>>>>>MD.

While I think I understand your point, I still think my comment is true and appropriate for this forum's audience.

 

[KUNRD07]

How important is research diversity (as in doing research in more than one lab) to adcoms? Is it going to hurt my chances that I've only performed research in a single lab for 3 years (including 2 summers) even though I've got two national conference poster presentations, a couple of awards, and a publication out of it?

 

[gbwillner]

How important is research diversity (as in doing research in more than one lab)? Is it going to hurt me that I've only performed research in a single lab for 3 years (including 2 summers) even though I've got two national poster presentations, a couple of awards, and a publication out of it?

Not important at all. You research sounds great.

 

[beary]

Not important at all. You research sounds great.

Absolutely agreed. I would say one substantial and productive lab experience is better than lots of less productive ones.

 

[CrusaderMedic]

So.....now that this post has died down a little bit and there's no more talk of age. And now that I've established I need more than a semesters worth of independent research....what would be better, looking for a job in computational biology (would probably be directed research), or should I look for something like a lab assistant ?? I've also considered seeing if I'm could talk the NIH into taking me for one of their research programs, even though I'm not really a recent undergraduate (just got my Masters)...Any thoughts?

 

[gbwillner]

So.....now that this post has died down a little bit and there's no more talk of age. And now that I've established I need more than a semesters worth of independent research....what would be better, looking for a job in computational biology (would probably be directed research), or should I look for something like a lab assistant ?? I've also considered seeing if I'm could talk the NIH into taking me for one of their research programs, even though I'm not really a recent undergraduate (just got my Masters)...Any thoughts?

Old man,
It doesn't matter, really. Whichever you find most appealing to you. The point being that you are doing science, and that, when you are at your interview, you can talk about your hypotheses and how you tested them.
LORs from mentors are also important, but you really need to show off your stuff during the interview.

J/K about the old man bit... I'm older than you are.

 

[r1oid]

Not sure if this was addressed but is there a burning reason for the MSTP, MD/PhD route? You can do quite a bit of research as an MD, ie. summer research as a med student, year off in between M2-M3, fellowship research. Your experience would make you a reasonable sell for a MD spot at many schools. I also believe there are some loan repayment options out there if you do end up doing research with your MD. Also there are some MD/PhD programs that will allow you to apply into the MD/PhD from the MD program after you have already started.

 

[CrusaderMedic]

The main reason is that I'm very interested in small molecule effectors, 3-d protein structure and the effects of environment on those structures, and the genes behind these structures.....I want to do research in this area, but I want to do focused clinical research specifically on human diseases that are effected by these. I have an MS in Bioinformatics, but I want to go somewhere that I can focus on the hard science of biomolecular structure and more specifically I want to focus on biomolecular structure as it relates to human disease/illness. I want to be a physician because I enjoy helping people, I enjoy serving, and most important is the satisfaction I get when I see people enjoying life as a result of something I have done (an experience I got to have in Iraq and Korea quite a few times). Make sense? Hmm, where can I find out about the schools that will accept people into the MD/PhD program from the MD program....also are there any that will do the reverse, PhD to MD/PhD program?

 

[gbwillner]

The main reason is that I'm very interested in small molecule effectors, 3-d protein structure and the effects of environment on those structures, and the genes behind these structures.....I want to do research in this area, but I want to do focused clinical research specifically on human diseases that are effected by these. I have an MS in Bioinformatics, but I want to go somewhere that I can focus on the hard science of biomolecular structure and more specifically I want to focus on biomolecular structure as it relates to human disease/illness. I want to be a physician because I enjoy helping people, I enjoy serving, and most important is the satisfaction I get when I see people enjoying life as a result of something I have done (an experience I got to have in Iraq and Korea quite a few times). Make sense? Hmm, where can I find out about the schools that will accept people into the MD/PhD program from the MD program....also are there any that will do the reverse, PhD to MD/PhD program?

from your post, obviously you should do the computational research. I would never recommend you do something (like be a lab assistant) if you think it will be boring and you won't enjoy it. In the end, it's the experience that counts.

I have to tell you that it's very difficult to balance the research and the medicine. From the outset, it seems easy, but once you get into research, it's nearly impossible to find time to see patients and keep up with your grants. The best way to do this really is to be very focused on your patient population, and make sure that population is the subject of your research.

As far as the MD/PhD programs taking MD students- I would believe that most of them will do it. Usually you need to re-apply to the program into your first year in Med school. Your odds are much better than the average applicant, because you've already done the difficult part (getting into med school). However, you are by no means guaranteed a spot. A good friend of mine took 2 years off to do research in a Howard Hughes program, and afterwards wanted to joing MSTP. Sounds perfect, right? He was rejected, although he was admitted to the graduate school.
Unfortunately, it doesn't really work the other way around. I've never seen a PhD student join an MSTP program. It's just not practical- you can't stop your research for 4 years. You basically have to finish the PhD first.

 

[gbwillner]

Not sure if this was addressed but is there a burning reason for the MSTP, MD/PhD route? You can do quite a bit of research as an MD, ie. summer research as a med student, year off in between M2-M3, fellowship research. Your experience would make you a reasonable sell for a MD spot at many schools. I also believe there are some loan repayment options out there if you do end up doing research with your MD. Also there are some MD/PhD programs that will allow you to apply into the MD/PhD from the MD program after you have already started.

Where to start on this one.... Really, it depends on the kind of research you want to do. Basic science or clinical?

There are numerous research fellowships for MDs, and even some that result in a PhD in the end. Many top research programs have these. But it can be pretty difficult to convince programs to give you a research fellowship over an MD/PhD applicant.

Basically, the advantages of the MSTP are financial, to some degree. You don't have to pay for med school. But you will more than pay that amount back, given that your classmates will make more money sooner and the difference will end in their favor, most of the time. If you choose to do the PhD during your residency/fellowship, you will be paid like a fellow, not a student, so that's an advantage. However, at that stage in your life you may not want to take another 4-5 years to serve as a slave in a lab.

 

[mrs.smith]

If you have your heart set on a tenured faculty position in academic medicine, the MD/PhD provides a huge advantage in getting it more prestigous university.

No so much if all you want to do is work in both medicine and research, then MD only is enough if you put the time in elsewhere for research.

Financially speaking, it's true that despite the NIH funding for MSTP, you end up about even with MD counterparts after your residency as they will have already been making some bucks and paying back those loans for several years.