MSTP just for the $?

[ramstam]

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I wonder if it is difficult to get into a good residency after the MSTP program? That way med school would be paid for and you wouldn't be stuck in a lab making 85K per year hoping for continued grants.???

 

[DrBowtie]

I wonder if it is difficult to get into a good residency after the MSTP program? That way med school would be paid for and you wouldn't be stuck in a lab making 85K per year hoping for continued grants.???

You are grossly neglecting opportunity cost. You would be losing $750,000 to $1,000,000 in potential income to save up to 300,000K in loans.

Unless you want to do the PhD, the money isn't worth it.

 

[Labslave]

You are grossly neglecting opportunity cost. You would be losing $750,000 to $1,000,000 in potential income to save 300,000K in loans.

Unless you want to do the PhD, the money isn't worth it.

I absolutely agree. If you don't end up taking advantage of the PhD by doing some real research (i.e. choosing a career than requires it), it's a total waste of time and, as Brett mentioned, money.

 

[velo]

You are grossly neglecting opportunity cost. You would be losing $750,000 to $1,000,000 in potential income to save up to 300,000K in loans.

Unless you want to do the PhD, the money isn't worth it.

Oh you beat me to it.

Yeah MSTPs can get into fine programs, especially at big academic centers they're sometimes prefered, but the money aspect actually isn't the best deal. 3-4 years of lost income doesn't sound like a lot when you're 23 and have never made more than a few thousand a year, but remember that every extra year you spend in school is a year you're not practicing. And when you're practicing you're bringing in ~150-300k/year. Suddenly the free med school isn't the unbelievable deal it sounded like it was.

People do MSTP because they want to be in academics and spend most of their time in the lab.

The people just in it for the money are the smarties who somehow manage to drop out of the MSTP program after 1-2 years without inciting too much of a ****storm

 

[ramstam]

Oh you beat me to it.

Yeah MSTPs can get into fine programs, especially at big academic centers they're sometimes prefered, but the money aspect actually isn't the best deal. 3-4 years of lost income doesn't sound like a lot when you're 23 and have never made more than a few thousand a year, but remember that every extra year you spend in school is a year you're not practicing. And when you're practicing you're bringing in ~150-300k/year. Suddenly the free med school isn't the unbelievable deal it sounded like it was.

People do MSTP because they want to be in academics and spend most of their time in the lab.

The people just in it for the money are the smarties who somehow manage to drop out of the MSTP program after 1-2 years without inciting too much of a ****storm

That's what I wanted to hear. I liked the part about the "dropouts", but I don't think anyone could plan that sort of thing without feeling guilty, and I know I would rather owe an extra 50K than have a guilty feeling about my past.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

If you do an MSTP for the money, do it because you anticipate earning a lower salary by going into research.

 

[QofQuimica]

If you do an MSTP for the money, do it because you anticipate earning a lower salary by going into research.

Agree. Never mind the financial aspect; there is the work/life aspect of it. Getting a Ph.D. is a lot of hard work. Plus, unlike med school, it is very common for people to drop out of grad school without earning their degrees. If you don't really want to be doing research, chances are good that you won't make it through an MD/PhD program.

OP, if you want to go to medical school as cheaply as possible and aren't looking for a career in research, the best thing to do is to is to apply to schools that give scholarships and good need-based aid if you qualify, as well as to concentrate on your state allopathic schools. Some states, like TX, have incredibly excellent, cheap state schools, and if you can live with your parents during school on top of it, you'll save even more.

 

[Alfman]

I think its a shame when people have ulterior motives going into mstp programs because it takes a spot from those who are really interested, but I think its also up to the individual...I personally don't mind being a student and living off of little money for a while (not rushing out to make those big bucks)...and coincidentally, I would imagine that some of the people who jump to tell you that you should never go into mstp programs to save money because you'll end up making less overlap with the people who would scold you for going into medicine for the money.

 

[Callogician]

You are grossly neglecting opportunity cost. You would be losing $750,000 to $1,000,000 in potential income to save up to 300,000K in loans.

Unless you want to do the PhD, the money isn't worth it.

Well said. As usual, the bachelor is the voice of reason.

 

[dfsdiego]

in regards to the first question of the OP, most MSTP students do tend to match at top residency programs (especially the academic institutions as was mentioned). in regards to the money issue, tuition waiver and living stipend sure are attractive, as is not accumulating debt, but the opportunity cost probably wins out...so i will listen to classmates worry about fin aid and debt now but in eight years when i'm finally finishing the MD, all my doctor friends better take me to dinner now and then.

 

[etf]

i think that having the md/phd would come in handy in trying to get those ultra-hard specialities, particularly the ones that would actually lead to an opportunity cost of "$1M". plus, you might be able to get better jobs at private practices (i.e. negotiate a higher salary due to your increased marketability), so you might end up making more. what's 3 years, anyway?

 

[synapse lapse]

i think that having the md/phd would come in handy in trying to get those ultra-hard specialities, particularly the ones that would actually lead to an opportunity cost of "$1M". plus, you might be able to get better jobs at private practices (i.e. negotiate a higher salary due to your increased marketability), so you might end up making more. what's 3 years, anyway?

No.

 

[penguinophile]

i think that having the md/phd would come in handy in trying to get those ultra-hard specialities, particularly the ones that would actually lead to an opportunity cost of "$1M". plus, you might be able to get better jobs at private practices (i.e. negotiate a higher salary due to your increased marketability), so you might end up making more. what's 3 years, anyway?

Nope...that would be completely incorrect. Unless you want to do research it is useless. Spend the time that you would be in grad classes busting your butt to do well on the boards and you will be able to do the ultra hard specialties.

 

[etf]

i stand corrected. i still wouldn't mind having a doctorate under my belt, but i guess i should just focus on getting into med school in the mean time

 

[roca88]

.

 

[etf]

wow...stop speaking like a voice of authority when you haven't even done a day of med school, good god. ever heard of academic medicine?

yeah, there are a lot of opportunities for md/phd that you don't even know about, so don't talk about things so matter-of-factly when you don't know ****.

geez, that's pretty harsh - i think they were just saying that if you're not interested in things like academic medicine (i.e. if you're dead set on being a family practitioner in rural arkansas), you probably wouldn't benefit from the player haters degree...

 

[velo]

Yeah I guess he came across kind of harsh, but he's right. MD/PhDs tend to work in academics, and while that's very rewarding it doesn't pay quite as well as private practice. The chief of neurosurg is the only academic doc I know of here who's making 1M

 

[penguinophile]

Yeah I guess he came across kind of harsh, but he's right. MD/PhDs tend to work in academics, and while that's very rewarding it doesn't pay quite as well as private practice. The chief of neurosurg is the only academic doc I know of here who's making 1M

What he said....I didn't mean to sound harsh, but like whoever got mad said...it's useful for academic medicine..not really a $1 million salary situation. The whole thread seems aimed at making a lot of money, and all I'm saying is that the PhD usually won't do it for you compared to just the MD. Sometimes I forget that short messages = being taken the wrong way 😳

 

[etf]

lol, what if you're like me and have aspirations of actually being that chief of neurosurg, making $1M? whatever, wouldn't have time to spend it anyway...

 

[md2010???]

That's what I wanted to hear. I liked the part about the "dropouts", but I don't think anyone could plan that sort of thing without feeling guilty, and I know I would rather owe an extra 50K than have a guilty feeling about my past.

hey ramstam,
if you decide to drop out of an MSTP program, you will have to repay the med school (+ interest) for the years you attended, and it won't be fun. there may not be a
****storm per se, but they'll get their money back.

 

[penguinophile]

hey ramstam,
if you decide to drop out of an MSTP program, you will have to repay the med school (+ interest) for the years you attended, and it won't be fun. there may not be a
****storm per se, but they'll get their money back.

Where did you hear that info? Everything I have read has stated that MSTP programs cannot ask to get their money back if you drop out. Non-MSTP MD/PhD programs do a lot of times, but I am fairly sure that MSTPs either aren't allowed to, or just normally don't.

 

[md2010???]

Where did you hear that info? Everything I have read has stated that MSTP programs cannot ask to get their money back if you drop out. Non-MSTP MD/PhD programs do a lot of times, but I am fairly sure that MSTPs either aren't allowed to, or just normally don't.

yeah, maybe you're right, sorry if I spread some misinformation...

incidentally, what is the difference between MSTP and non-MSTP? I didn't know about the difference.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

hey ramstam,
if you decide to drop out of an MSTP program, you will have to repay the med school (+ interest) for the years you attended, and it won't be fun. there may not be a
****storm per se, but they'll get their money back.

This is the reason why you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[OddNath]

yeah, maybe you're right, sorry if I spread some misinformation...

incidentally, what is the difference between MSTP and non-MSTP? I didn't know about the difference.

A non-MSTP MD/PhD program doesn't receive MSTP funding from the NIH. It's funded by the medical school itself. Many of these programs (like the one I'm in) are in the process of applying for MSTP funding.

From what I understand, there are some non-MSTP MD/PhD programs that ask for money back from students who drop out of the program, to discourage people from trying to get the free MD without completing the PhD.

 

[OddNath]

double post

 

[Fishsticks]

Hey guys i was reading this board and had a quick question. Well I am really interested in md/phd programs because i love doing research, i just dont think that i want to spend my life in a lab. Now i was wondering like if I did do the md/phd program and i just applied to a normal residency would i have a better chance of landing a residency i desired because of the phd? The money really isn't a motivator at all for me, i cme from a family without it and im sure i can go another couple years without in order to spend a little time earning a doctorate in an area like pharm or physio. I'm just wondering since i dont really plan on makin research a career but would like to spend a few more years after undergrad doing it, if it would be of any benefit to get into more competetive specialties.

Fishsticks

 

[etf]

Hey guys i was reading this board and had a quick question. Well I am really interested in md/phd programs because i love doing research, i just dont think that i want to spend my life in a lab. Now i was wondering like if I did do the md/phd program and i just applied to a normal residency would i have a better chance of landing a residency i desired because of the phd? The money really isn't a motivator at all for me, i cme from a family without it and im sure i can go another couple years without in order to spend a little time earning a doctorate in an area like pharm or physio. I'm just wondering since i dont really plan on makin research a career but would like to spend a few more years after undergrad doing it, if it would be of any benefit to get into more competetive specialties.

Fishsticks

well, i was told in previous posts that having the phd won't help you, but i still tend to disagree. particularly, when i look up neurosurgery residencies, it seems that you need research experience to be competitive. also, whenever i check out the residents in this department at places like ucsf and hopkins, a lot of them are md/phd. but i guess if you want like a community-based residency, it doesn't matter. i'm sure someone will disagree...

 

[DrBowtie]

well, i was told in previous posts that having the phd won't help you, but i still tend to disagree. particularly, when i look up neurosurgery residencies, it seems that you need research experience to be competitive. also, whenever i check out the residents in this department at places like ucsf and hopkins, a lot of them are md/phd. but i guess if you want like a community-based residency, it doesn't matter. i'm sure someone will disagree...

They disagreed when you were talking about getting a better private practice job.
It def. helps to get into competitive specialties.

 

[penguinophile]

Hey guys i was reading this board and had a quick question. Well I am really interested in md/phd programs because i love doing research, i just dont think that i want to spend my life in a lab. Now i was wondering like if I did do the md/phd program and i just applied to a normal residency would i have a better chance of landing a residency i desired because of the phd? The money really isn't a motivator at all for me, i cme from a family without it and im sure i can go another couple years without in order to spend a little time earning a doctorate in an area like pharm or physio. I'm just wondering since i dont really plan on makin research a career but would like to spend a few more years after undergrad doing it, if it would be of any benefit to get into more competetive specialties.

Fishsticks

A possible solution would be to take some time off and work as a research assistant. It all depends on what you want to do, but be sure to think of all the options because a PhD is a fairly big deal. Since you are doing it for the love of research, I see nothing wrong with doing MD/PhD, just prepare for it. Also, something to consider is whether you want to do basic science type stuff, or clinical research. You might want to try working in a clinical lab to see if you would prefer that because you would be (I would think) more likely to use the research in your practice, but still have the enjoyment of the lab atmosphere. Whatever you choose, good luck.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Man I have a lot of respect for those of you who want to better science and medicine by getting a PhD--what a sacrifice!

I need to start making some money because I've been a student for waaaay too long, and am just ready to start bringing home a paycheck and not waiting for my financial aid check like some welfare mother. I'll stop at my MD (next year baby!)

Good luck to all you budding physician/scientists! 👍 👍 👍

 

[etf]

They disagreed when you were talking about getting a better private practice job.
It def. helps to get into competitive specialties.

lol, i guess i should have said that the md/phd MIGHT increase your chances of getting the same residency at a more prestigious place, which would PROBABLY mean a higher salary in private practice. i'm sure they'd pay more for the hotshot from top-10 U than somone else (even though the training would most likely be similar)...

 

[synapse lapse]

Look dude MD/PhD isn't gonna get you anymore money than it will cost you in lost income. It is a poor financial decision to go MSTP and thus you should only do it if you want to for some particular reason (of course this excludes foreign citizens who cannot borrow to pay for school).

 

[Fishsticks]

hey everyone i just wanted to thank you all for the replies

Fishsticks

 

[DoctorFunk]

hey everyone i just wanted to thank you all for the replies

Fishsticks

No problem. *Group hug!*