mstp oddballs

[Peanut123]

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Out of curiosity, are there any other rebellious students out there doing graduate work in something "non-traditional" for mstps? I am doing my work in chemistry, which i guess is a little unusual. 🙂

 

[philosopherdoc]

I haven't officially been accepted into the program yet, but if all goes well (and it looks like it will) mine will be in philosophy (esp. bioethics)

 

[QofQuimica]

Out of curiosity, are there any other rebellious students out there doing graduate work in something "non-traditional" for mstps? I am doing my work in chemistry, which i guess is a little unusual. 🙂

I am doing my degrees separately, but my PhD is in organic chem, so I'll be a nontraditional MD/PhD when I finish, I suppose. 👍 What are you doing for your research?

 

[Circumflex]

I think that it is interesting to see that people are doing their PhDs in non-traditional fields.

What clinical specialties and what areas of research do you see yourself doing in the future?

 

[Peanut123]

I'm working on developing targeted MRI contrast agents, so it's a lot of organic synthesis, too...but I'm hoping to do some cell studies eventually so that I don't feel like a complete idiot at our mstp retreats Actually, I think I'd like to continue to do molecular imaging research in the future. If I do that, I think my clinical specialty would most likely be radiology, but I am also considering pathology or internal medicine.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think that it is interesting to see that people are doing their PhDs in non-traditional fields.

What clinical specialties and what areas of research do you see yourself doing in the future?

I'm not sure yet, but I'd like to do something that uses my chem background. Maybe pain or addiction.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm working on developing targeted MRI contrast agents

I actually do very similar work, except the contrast agent is already developed (it's a naturally occuring element) and I'm working on delivery, kinetics, and measurement in vivo in large animals. I'm a biophysics grad student, though I could probably easily be a bioengineering graduate student and do the same work. After doing my rotations in several things including my old interests in Neurology and IM, I decided on Radiology, which makes this type of work so much easier to do as a grad student.

The heck with the MSTP retreats. 95% of my program does cell and molecular biology work. You can call it Neuroscience or Immunology all you want, it all looks the same to me. With a few exceptions, it's the same techniques. Who wants to be just like everyone else? That being said I actually take it as something of an insult to be put in the "imaging" catagory at the retreat, though I am nowadays the only guy there with a poster. I work on devices, some of which have nothing to do with the imaging, I do biochemical assays, I get histology sometimes... What, should we call the CAMB guys "Blotters" (with subspecializations in western, northern, and southern)? Or maybe we should call the guys who have alot of fluoroscopy "imagers" also? Oh well, nobody can call you much of an idiot really. Most people will have no idea what you're talking about on your poster. T1 or T2 relaxation? What's that? 😉

 

[QofQuimica]

Ok, so someone fill me in on what these MSTP retreats are. I assume that you're talking about a research meeting for MD/PhD students?

 

[Peanut123]

Most people will have no idea what you're talking about on your poster. T1 or T2 relaxation? What's that? 😉

I hear ya on that...if I start talking about relaxations, I just get blank stares. You would think grad students would know something about T1 and T2, though...most of them have used NMR at some point.


For QofQuimica: Most mstp programs (as far as I know) have retreats for their students/faculty where there are poster presentations and talks by students. There's also a national MD/PhD conference in Colorado, I think.

 

[jjmack]

I hear ya on that...if I start talking about relaxations, I just get blank stares. You would think grad students would know something about T1 and T2, though...most of them have used NMR at some point.


For QofQuimica: Most mstp programs (as far as I know) have retreats for their students/faculty where there are poster presentations and talks by students. There's also a national MD/PhD conference in Colorado, I think.

Don't most med students also take a radiology class? We talked about T1 and T2 in radiology and neuroscience.

 

[QofQuimica]

Don't most med students also take a radiology class? We talked about T1 and T2 in radiology and neuroscience.

I just want to say, for the record, that even *I* know what T1 and T2 are. And I'm only an M1. 😉 I mixed them up once when the anatomy prof was pimping a few of us during lab, but on the bright side, now I'll never forget which is which.

I've never gone to the Colorado meeting, but I have been going to the APSA meeting in Chicago the past couple of years. I'm going to go again this year even though I don't have anything to present. Any of you going?

 

[Neuronix]

Don't most med students also take a radiology class? We talked about T1 and T2 in radiology and neuroscience.

Not at my school. Radiology is an elective in high demand and hard to get. I was a neuroscience undergrad and neuroimaging was never once explained in undergrad or med school. Even on my neurology rotation nobody even mentioned the basics of reading head films. In anatomy and IM we got to see a few x-rays, but no CT or MR.

 

[solumanculver]

I haven't officially been accepted into the program yet, but if all goes well (and it looks like it will) mine will be in philosophy (esp. bioethics)

Hi, What programs allow MD/PhDs in philosophy? I'm interested in such a track but I haven't been able to find one.

 

[hawkeey]

I would recommend searching the forums a little bit.

Most of the MD/PhD programs that allow a PhD in philosophy are not covered under the MSTP grant. The largest of the programs that allow this is UIUC (Univeristy of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign).

To the OP, give me a break. Chemistry is not a non-traditional field.

 

[QofQuimica]

To the OP, give me a break. Chemistry is not a non-traditional field.

Yes it is, if it's not biochem/biophysics. Chill.

 

[philosopherdoc]

There's almost no programs that allow for it, you have to do something on your own.

As you can see from the replies here there is a not a lot of love from the traditional MD/PhD's, but believe me there are funds. If you really want to do it there are funds for it, you just have to search.

If you're really interested in one check out the UTMB website
Good luck

 

[Circumflex]

As you can see from the replies here there is a not a lot of love from the traditional MD/PhD's, but believe me there are funds.

I'm not sure why you think this - I respect non-traditional paths and careers because they can offer fresh perspective.

However, the mission of Medical Scientist Training Programs is to train physician-scientists. That doesn't mean that a PhD in philosophy or bioethics could not be beneficial, but it doesn't fit the scope of these training programs.

 

[philosopherdoc]

I'm not sure why you think this - I respect non-traditional paths and careers because they can offer fresh perspective.

However, the mission of Medical Scientist Training Programs is to train physician-scientists. That doesn't mean that a PhD in philosophy or bioethics could not be beneficial, but it doesn't fit the scope of these training programs.

Well it's good to hear that you feel this way. I'm mostly speaking from my current experience and not from here on the forum. It's nice to be able to hear that someone respects things other than the standard MD/PhD.

Although I understand that the MSTP is designed to train scientists, it would seem a great flaw of the program if it were unable to train anything other than scientists (by that I mean the dual degree MD/PhD program not necessarily the MSTP), as medical educators are needed in other fields than research.

To those of you who are looking for the alternative field, keep trying, I'm getting a lot of support for my path...

 

[erraticVibe]

I actually do very similar work, except the contrast agent is already developed (it's a naturally occuring element) and I'm working on delivery, kinetics, and measurement in vivo in large animals. I'm a biophysics grad student, though I could probably easily be a bioengineering graduate student and do the same work. After doing my rotations in several things including my old interests in Neurology and IM, I decided on Radiology, which makes this type of work so much easier to do as a grad student.

The heck with the MSTP retreats. 95% of my program does cell and molecular biology work. You can call it Neuroscience or Immunology all you want, it all looks the same to me. With a few exceptions, it's the same techniques. Who wants to be just like everyone else? That being said I actually take it as something of an insult to be put in the "imaging" catagory at the retreat, though I am nowadays the only guy there with a poster. I work on devices, some of which have nothing to do with the imaging, I do biochemical assays, I get histology sometimes... What, should we call the CAMB guys "Blotters" (with subspecializations in western, northern, and southern)? Or maybe we should call the guys who have alot of fluoroscopy "imagers" also? Oh well, nobody can call you much of an idiot really. Most people will have no idea what you're talking about on your poster. T1 or T2 relaxation? What's that? 😉

Your research sounds interesting...using pharmacokinetics, MRI physics, and I guess the biological analysis techniques. I am guessing you feel pretty unique, getting to use alot of mathematics and modelling in addition to biology's LCPA approach. 😀

 

[hawkeey]

It depends on the school. Some universities that are essentially specialized medical campuses do not have chemistry departments. Some universities organize any chemistry related to biology into a "chemical biology" program, but it's still really chemistry. Sometimes parts of biochemistry are really "biological chemistry" or "chemical biology". That's semantics.

That said, I do not think its very strange for someone to do chemistry for their PhD. Many people do organic synthesis and testing of small molecules for their PhD in combination with a MD.

 

[Peanut123]

It depends on the school. Some universities that are essentially specialized medical campuses do not have chemistry departments. Some universities organize any chemistry related to biology into a "chemical biology" program, but it's still really chemistry. Sometimes parts of biochemistry are really "biological chemistry" or "chemical biology". That's semantics.

That said, I do not think its very strange for someone to do chemistry for their PhD. Many people do organic synthesis and testing of small molecules for their PhD in combination with a MD.

I said that it was a little unusual to do chemistry because many physicians and physician scientists have directly told me so and because not too many mstps allow you to get degrees in chemistry. Oh, yeah, and the committee who came for our NIH site visit also mentioned that chemistry is very non-traditional, but they were impressed by it. I'm not saying that it will remain nontraditional because more and more chemists are joining mstps, but right now it is.

Yes, biological chemistry and chemical biology are grouped under chemistry, but they are not the same as the traditional fields in chemistry like organic and inorganic. And while I don't deny that there are mstps out there doing organic synthesis, I doubt that there are very many. Most of the people you are thinking of are either biologists in a chem lab testing small molecules that have been made for them by chemists or they are just following simple synthetic procedures that a chemist told them to do, at least in my experience.

So, the point is, chemistry IS unusual for a mstp student, at least right now. This is my opinion, of course, but at least it is based on the expertise of the head of the mstp at the NIH and people who have already obtained both degrees, and I think they know a little more about these programs than you do. Also, if you go to this website (it's a little over a year old, but I think it is still pretty valid), it says that few mstps pursue chemistry: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/education/83/8336education3.html. So where's your evidence for chemistry not being an unusual field for mstps?

 

[QofQuimica]

It depends on the school. Some universities that are essentially specialized medical campuses do not have chemistry departments. Some universities organize any chemistry related to biology into a "chemical biology" program, but it's still really chemistry. Sometimes parts of biochemistry are really "biological chemistry" or "chemical biology". That's semantics.

That said, I do not think its very strange for someone to do chemistry for their PhD. Many people do organic synthesis and testing of small molecules for their PhD in combination with a MD.

What you're describing (biochemistry or biological chemistry or chemical biology) is not organic synthesis. Even someone having a biochemical project that involves running a few simple reactions is not really doing similar work to a hardcore organic synthesis PhD. Actually, the only MD/PhD organic chemists I've met or heard of are people like me who did their degrees separately. There are three other organic chem PhDs-to-MDs that I have come across in the past three years on SDN, plus one DDS-to-PhD in organic. And now possibly peanut. 😉

 

[crimsonkid85]

What you're describing (biochemistry or biological chemistry or chemical biology) is not organic synthesis. Even someone having a biochemical project that involves running a few simple reactions is not really doing similar work to a hardcore organic synthesis PhD. Actually, the only MD/PhD organic chemists I've met or heard of are people like me who did their degrees separately. There are three other organic chem PhDs-to-MDs that I have come across in the past three years on SDN, plus one DDS-to-PhD in organic. And now possibly peanut. 😉

i'm doing my phd in organic synthesis, too! 😀 where are you now, QofQuimica? and peanut?

 

[Rai]

I didn't think that Chemistry was a non-traditional area to go into for an MD/PhD until I started the application process. Many programs think you're kinda weird for wanting to do it, especially if your not wanting to become a biochemist. I have an environmental chem back ground, I think I want to go into the more analytical side of things (diagnostics-ish area maybe). I have an extensive research background, but I wonder if I didn't get interviews at some schools because of my reserach interests.... guess I'll never know. Anyone else have a similar thing happen?

 

[QofQuimica]

i'm doing my phd in organic synthesis, too! 😀 where are you now, QofQuimica? and peanut?

I'm in an MD program; I did my PhD separately. You're sitting on quite a nice pile of awesome interviews and acceptances there. Any thoughts about where you want to end up?

 

[QofQuimica]

I didn't think that Chemistry was a non-traditional area to go into for an MD/PhD until I started the application process. Many programs think you're kinda weird for wanting to do it, especially if your not wanting to become a biochemist. I have an environmental chem back ground, I think I want to go into the more analytical side of things (diagnostics-ish area maybe). I have an extensive research background, but I wonder if I didn't get interviews at some schools because of my reserach interests.... guess I'll never know. Anyone else have a similar thing happen?

You could do clinical chemistry (subspecialty of path). I've thought about that myself. 🙂

 

[NGN47]

At my program several students are in Chemistry. In fact, for my year I think it is actully about half.

 

[the_one_smiley]

I'm planning to join the physics department next year. We also have at least one student in anthropology.

 

[enhypnion]

My PhD is in Biomedical Engineering. Most MD PhD's graduated with PhD's in molecular biology or associated field since you were granted some class credit for your previous work in medical school. In fact some students had there comps waivered by passing Step I. Unfortuantly for me, and probably why no one else went into this program, only 12 hours of life science was waived and I had to make up those 12 hours by taking additional math or physics. So in reality I was given no credit for any Medical school course work. You can kind of see why most MudPhuds take the biology/chemistry route.

 

[enhypnion]

University of Illinois Urbana-Champagne allows for MD PhD degrees in Philosophy

check out http://www.med.uiuc.edu/mdphd/CurrentStudents.asp