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MSU CHM (MD) vs MSU COM
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Congratulations on both acceptances! I'm personally on the waitlist w/ guaranteed deferred acceptance to c/o 2015.
I'm not quite sure what to tell you since there's not much information in your post. If the differences between MD and DO don't have any bearing on you and the only issue is timing, I'd say that by all means, go with your gut feeling.
I'm not quite sure what to tell you since there's not much information in your post. If the differences between MD and DO don't have any bearing on you and the only issue is timing, I'd say that by all means, go with your gut feeling.
I visited all 4 medical schools in Michigan last year with my school's pre-med club and I can say that MSU CHM was my least favorite.... they just seemed not as welcoming when compared to MSU COM especially. MSU COM was so welcoming, friendly, just seemed like a great environment for learning. That's just my two cents, not much, but maybe it will help!
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I've got a question for the DO folk on here. I often see the "big name" DO schools listed, and MSU-COM is never on there, despite being ranked the #4 medical school in the country (MD and DO) a few years back by USN&WR.
Is the consensus that it is one of, if not the, best DO school in the nation?
Am I just missing something?
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It's probably number 4 on the list of schools that put the most people into primary care ... something most pre-meds look at as a negative thing (go derm or go home). It's also unbelievably expensive for OOS students.
As far as I am concerned it is the best DO school in the country. Some may not agree. I think a lot of applicants write off MSU COM because they do not accept many OOS applicants and the OOS tuition is insane. Most DO schools are private and accept 50/50 IS and OOS.
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ALL DO schools aim to put students in primary care not just MSU COM. We have students who match into plenty of specialties. I think Michigan has some of the most DO derm residencies compared to some states who have none. I think it benefits the students who rotate through these hospitals that have these residencies.
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I also like that MSUCOM starts in the summer. It allows you to focus on anatomy before being bombarded with other classes.
BTW, how do you feel about going to class with your SO? & would go to a satellite campus or main campus?
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Jagger is right though (he only mentioned that stat to answer oldgrunt's question).
From MSUCOM's website:
"MSUCOM is ranked seventh in the nation for primary care among all medical schools, and is ranked first in the nation for primary care among osteopathic medical schools."
But they do have nice match lists for other, more competitive, specialties.
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Not arguing this ... and the derm thing was a joke. My comment was to Grunt bc he said the school is ranked #4 or 7 or whatever in the nation, and I simply pointed out that the category was number of student placed into PC fields.
We had several classes with each other during undergrad and it was never a problem.
Negatives about CHM to me: PBL, rural clerkships, no choice between GR or EL and you don't find out your site until April... if you get EL you basically have to live in an apartment complex due to finding out your site in April. Seemingly less friendly.
Negatives about COM to me: Starting in June = I have to pay two rents through the Summer = I have no idea how I am going to eat. Really expensive if you're OOS - this probably drops it off most people's lists on SDN.
I hate those USN rankings. They're created to make money for USN.
Negatives about COM to me: Starting in June = I have to pay two rents through the Summer = I have no idea how I am going to eat. Really expensive if you're OOS - this probably drops it off most people's lists on SDN.
I hate those USN rankings. They're created to make money for USN.
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I hope you figure that out. I love eating. My cast-iron pan is one of my most valued possessions, for from its gleaming black depths I find seared steaks, fried rice, and all other sorts of wonderful items. I'm also probably going to get some kind of strain injury from it though (it feels like it weighs ~20 pounds).Yeah, I don't like the USN rankings either. They're fun, but I read through their scoring criteria... I'm not sure I agree with their method of assessment.
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They aren't really a sham ... I think, personally, they are just based on weird things. The two I always see are 1. Who gets the most research funding and 2. Who puts the most students into primary care. I personally care very little about either, and I find them further pointless because knowing which schools are 'good' is kind of just common knowledge. I mean, I get that it helps or makes a basis for these common opinions ... but do I really need Newsweek to tell me Harvard has a good med school???
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They're not totally worthless however I don't agree with how their methodology works. A large portion of the rankings have nothing to do with the quality of education a student will receive.
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Exactly. LOL this is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better!
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Thanks. I was just curious. My intent wasn't to start an MSU MD V. DO debate.
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But they do have nice match lists for other, more competitive, specialties.
For AOA yes, for ACGME not so much
http://www.com.msu.edu/admissions/AllopathicMatch2009.pdf
http://www.com.msu.edu/admissions/AllopathicMatch2010.pdf
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wow...is this considered a lot of students not matching?
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i don't understand the question
but here's the AOA matches
http://www.com.msu.edu/admissions/CL09Rev.List.TXT
http://www.com.msu.edu/admissions/2010MatchResults.txt
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I'm not entirely sure on this subject, but I was looking at MSU's MD program awhile back and it seems to be more rural medicine focused and I think there was some sort of stipulation with acceptance (IE- practicing in Michigan for x number of years after residency). I could be totally off base on the details though, so check out the website for more accurate info.
Class-wise, CHM and COM take all of the basic sciences together (medical genetics, physio, biochem, etc.) and are separated for classes like physician-patient, and OMT (obviously). So even if you do CHM, you will have all your core science classes with your partner. (Except anatomy- if you did CHM, you would then have anatomy in the fall in addition to the science classes).
IMO, you should look at what YOU want to do in the future- do you want to practice family medicine and work in a rural, underserved area? If so, CHM might be the way to go for you. If you're more interested in specialties other than FM, you might want to go with COM to not be tied down with anything.
I didn't visit (or even apply to) CHM, but from visiting COM and interacting with the staff while there and students via the internet, it seems so welcoming and friendly. It's one of the oldest DO schools in the country, so I really feel like they have a handle on how to run things. I was able to meet with the head of the DO/PhD program as a future applicant during my visit day and he spent an HOUR with me, has already created a file for me and has followed up with me via email since. Truly, everyone I've met there has been extremely nice and helpful, and the students are awesome.
Personally, I'm excited to get anatomy over with in the summer and I think it will be a good transition into medical school, instead of being bombarded with 7 classes in August. As an OOSer, I felt these advantages to COM outweighed the high cost of tuition. I decided to pursue the PhD program if I don't get an HPSP scholarship to try to avoid the almost $300k of debt I'd come out with otherwise. I really love the school, otherwise I wouldn't pay that much.
So that's my $0.02. Again, I think the most important question you should ask is not whether or not you should start in June vs. August or worrying about taking classes with your partner- I think the biggest factor should be which school do you see yourself being at for 4 years AND which school will prepare you for the specialty you'd like to enter after graduation. Good luck!
Class-wise, CHM and COM take all of the basic sciences together (medical genetics, physio, biochem, etc.) and are separated for classes like physician-patient, and OMT (obviously). So even if you do CHM, you will have all your core science classes with your partner. (Except anatomy- if you did CHM, you would then have anatomy in the fall in addition to the science classes).
IMO, you should look at what YOU want to do in the future- do you want to practice family medicine and work in a rural, underserved area? If so, CHM might be the way to go for you. If you're more interested in specialties other than FM, you might want to go with COM to not be tied down with anything.
I didn't visit (or even apply to) CHM, but from visiting COM and interacting with the staff while there and students via the internet, it seems so welcoming and friendly. It's one of the oldest DO schools in the country, so I really feel like they have a handle on how to run things. I was able to meet with the head of the DO/PhD program as a future applicant during my visit day and he spent an HOUR with me, has already created a file for me and has followed up with me via email since. Truly, everyone I've met there has been extremely nice and helpful, and the students are awesome.
Personally, I'm excited to get anatomy over with in the summer and I think it will be a good transition into medical school, instead of being bombarded with 7 classes in August. As an OOSer, I felt these advantages to COM outweighed the high cost of tuition. I decided to pursue the PhD program if I don't get an HPSP scholarship to try to avoid the almost $300k of debt I'd come out with otherwise. I really love the school, otherwise I wouldn't pay that much.
So that's my $0.02. Again, I think the most important question you should ask is not whether or not you should start in June vs. August or worrying about taking classes with your partner- I think the biggest factor should be which school do you see yourself being at for 4 years AND which school will prepare you for the specialty you'd like to enter after graduation. Good luck!
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Oh also, have you been confirmed at CHM and COM sites? As far as I know, you don't get a choice with CHM (Grand Rapids vs. East Lansing). And for COM, the EL site is full (again, as far as I know), so you'd be in Detroit or Macomb. Has your SO been confirmed at a COM site? Do you know if you'd be at the same location as them, for either the CHM or COM??
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2009 Allo match: 14 students didn't match.
2009 Osteo match: 23 students didn't match.
2010 Allo match: 6 students didn't match (much better than the previous year)
2010 Osteo match: 23 students didn't match.
23 students not matching DO and 14 not mathing MD. Does anybody else think those numbers are really high?
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This might mean that 23 people out of the entire class didn't match, not 23 people who ATTEMPTED to match didn't match. Some people sit out the match. Also, that 23 might not include military matches. Also, some of those 23 that didn't match osteo might have ONLY attempted allo matches. So there are a lot of different things that 23 unmatched in osteo could mean. Finally, keep in mind that MSU's class is over 300 students, which is much larger than the average DO class. I'm not sure ~7% unmatched is high compared to other DO/MD schools, but you can't look at it as 23 people didn't match. 23 people out of 300+ didn't match.
There are so many other threads discussing the merits of match list in assessing schools and I really feel that just like schools vary in style, so do students as do residency programs. There are a variety of factors that make a school "good", that make a student "good" (or competitive) and there are many factors a residency program considers when admitting students. Match lists should be taken with a grain of salt, in my opinion.
No idea if the Detroit site is full- the admissions office will probably let you know if you call/email. They are really helpful.
There are so many other threads discussing the merits of match list in assessing schools and I really feel that just like schools vary in style, so do students as do residency programs. There are a variety of factors that make a school "good", that make a student "good" (or competitive) and there are many factors a residency program considers when admitting students. Match lists should be taken with a grain of salt, in my opinion.
No idea if the Detroit site is full- the admissions office will probably let you know if you call/email. They are really helpful.
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The important thing is the percentage, not necessarily the raw numbers. the important thing about the raw numbers is the number of students that actually attempt to do allopathic and why this number is low compared to some of the more esteemed COMs
The reason i posted these was to show the specialties for the allo residencies
note: there is no Immunology, Orthopaedic Surgery, Otolaryngology, Colon and Rectal Surgery, Pathology, Dermatology, Plastic Surgery, Preventive Medicine, Medical Genetics, Psychiatry, Neurological Surgery, Radiation Oncology, Radiology, Nuclear Medicine, Surgery, Thoracic Surgery, Ophthalmology, Urology
some of these exist in the AOA residency matches, but not all and this too is a bit concerning... especially compared to some other DO's
The reason i posted these was to show the specialties for the allo residencies
note: there is no Immunology, Orthopaedic Surgery, Otolaryngology, Colon and Rectal Surgery, Pathology, Dermatology, Plastic Surgery, Preventive Medicine, Medical Genetics, Psychiatry, Neurological Surgery, Radiation Oncology, Radiology, Nuclear Medicine, Surgery, Thoracic Surgery, Ophthalmology, Urology
some of these exist in the AOA residency matches, but not all and this too is a bit concerning... especially compared to some other DO's
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MSUCOM official stats from these have the totals around 200 for the graduating class. The Macomb site will increase this number, but not from these results.
if you scroll to the bottom of each list it has a section that indicates where the numbers come from, so unmatched truly means unmatched:
TOTALS: MATCHED: 143 MILITARY: 10
UNMATCHED: 23
NON-PARTICIPANTS: 37
OVERALL TOTAL: 203
Note: Matched includes Military
as far as taking it with a grain of salt... yes, considering there were only about 40-50 who tried to do allo residencies over these two years, we could say that possibly nobody wanted to do any of the specialties that were left out, but the more likely possibility is that either they didn't feel competitive enough to apply, or didn't match... which are very similar in my eyes.
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Ah gotcha, sorry I didn't bother to read the links. You're def right. The addition of both the Macomb site (50 students) and the Detroit site (50 students) in 09 brought the class up to ~300 students, and I think my class is actually ~315.
To be perfectly honest, I think a lot of students at MSU plan to do osteo residencies and do FM/IM residencies because Michigan is such a DO friendly (and has the largest concentration of DOs in the country, I believe) area. There are a ton of osteo residency programs in the state, so I have a feeling that a lot of students grew up in the area and want to stay in Michigan. Just a guess though. You might be right about the allo matches- some may have self selected out of applying, and some might not have matched. Or they might not have wanted to do competitive allo residencies. This is why match lists are so subective- so many factors go into why people rank programs (location, significant others, etc.)
On my visit day, the head of admissions told us about a guy a few years ago determined to do neuro back in the Northeast (I can't remember if she specified neuro or neuro surg), came in, rocked in the COMLEX and USMLE and ended up matching into Cornell or something crazy. Granted, this is one example but it shows that it's possible. Personally, I plan to not stress about program stats, go in with the right attitude, study my ass off, rock the boards, and learn as much as I can on the wards to get great LORs for residency. I know I'll be happy at MSU and I'd rather go to a school I love than a school I don't like as much just in case it might increase my chances of getting into my top residency.
I know that's a slightly idealist attitude to have (especially since I haven't been jaded by med school yet) but I truly feel that med school is what you make of it. I'm not too worried about match stats and my chances.
To be perfectly honest, I think a lot of students at MSU plan to do osteo residencies and do FM/IM residencies because Michigan is such a DO friendly (and has the largest concentration of DOs in the country, I believe) area. There are a ton of osteo residency programs in the state, so I have a feeling that a lot of students grew up in the area and want to stay in Michigan. Just a guess though. You might be right about the allo matches- some may have self selected out of applying, and some might not have matched. Or they might not have wanted to do competitive allo residencies. This is why match lists are so subective- so many factors go into why people rank programs (location, significant others, etc.)
On my visit day, the head of admissions told us about a guy a few years ago determined to do neuro back in the Northeast (I can't remember if she specified neuro or neuro surg), came in, rocked in the COMLEX and USMLE and ended up matching into Cornell or something crazy. Granted, this is one example but it shows that it's possible. Personally, I plan to not stress about program stats, go in with the right attitude, study my ass off, rock the boards, and learn as much as I can on the wards to get great LORs for residency. I know I'll be happy at MSU and I'd rather go to a school I love than a school I don't like as much just in case it might increase my chances of getting into my top residency.
I know that's a slightly idealist attitude to have (especially since I haven't been jaded by med school yet) but I truly feel that med school is what you make of it. I'm not too worried about match stats and my chances.
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The number of unmatched seems a bit high, and is probably explainable, but I think it just generally shows how competitive stuff is getting as the number of students increases, matriculation averages increase, but the number of residency spots stays put.
HOWEVER ... please quit making assumptions based off match lists. Ask any med student, resident, etc, they will all tell you its asinine, and really only tells you what the class was interested in. For example, to the person who listed all the things that people didn't match in ... it's a very good chance that no one was interested in plastics, for example. Furthermore, remember that there are AOA fields that match PGY-2 from a TRI (there were a lot of TRIs on the list), and that people can also do fellowships in the future. In summation ... don't base stuff off match lists. They are fun, they let you check out a few rockstars, etc, but at the core ... they just aren't a good indicator of school quality.
HOWEVER ... please quit making assumptions based off match lists. Ask any med student, resident, etc, they will all tell you its asinine, and really only tells you what the class was interested in. For example, to the person who listed all the things that people didn't match in ... it's a very good chance that no one was interested in plastics, for example. Furthermore, remember that there are AOA fields that match PGY-2 from a TRI (there were a lot of TRIs on the list), and that people can also do fellowships in the future. In summation ... don't base stuff off match lists. They are fun, they let you check out a few rockstars, etc, but at the core ... they just aren't a good indicator of school quality.
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we acknowledged this
That is completely NOT the case. While it is in the schools mission to provide training for future primary care physicians in Michigan, by no means are you required to do either.
Also you do have the choice between GR and EL, it just is the first year they have done it so the process isn't completely streamlined yet and the waves are taking a long time. I was accepted early and didnt get to put in my preference until February.
To OP, it sounds like COM would be the better fit for you. I will see you in the fall.
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Uhh really??? Because it looks like you're listing off specialties that aren't listed and converting numbers into percentages of the graduating class?? If you acknowledge it ... just let the subject go. It's seriously not a big deal. MSU is a great school, and if you go there (CHM or COM) and work hard, you'll most likely do alright in the match.
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the more likely possibility is that either they didn't feel competitive enough to apply, or didn't match... which are very similar in my eyes.
so I have a feeling that a lot of students grew up in the area and want to stay in Michigan
You might be right about the allo matches- some may have self selected out of applying, and some might not have matched. Or they might not have wanted to do competitive allo residencies.
Hmm ... still quite a few expanding assumptions based off this match list.
I'm not going to argue this issue any further, but you guys are simply putting too much weight on these match lists. They really aren't demonstrating these trends and connections you're assuming, so it's simply not worth the time to extrapolate. I shouldn't even had made any assumptions for my argument either. It simply doesn't demonstrate anything valid enough to analyze.
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i dont feel like arguing either. of course we are making assumptions, in both positive and negative directions... its all we have unless we are actually there. unfortunately the system is set up where most of what we know is what is published by the school, and all they have offered is the last 4 years of osteo match lists and last 2 of allo. should we take it as is, no... but it is also not completely useless. i don't think any of us had the intent of devaluing MSUCOM, i brought i up merely as an observation.
truth is, i wish i did know why none of them matched for any allo surgery residency over the past two years, out of 90 applicants, because there had to be at least a few that wanted to. who knows.
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Seems like you answered your own question. You don't care about your letters. Other than that, MDs will have better residencies available to them, so if you have factored that in and are still okay with DO, do that. Hopefully you're not doing this just to be with your significant other because you might regret that down the line.
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depends how significant they are
AFAIK, EL and DMC are currently full.
I noticed in the other thread you didn't send in your site selection yet, just list your preferences and send it in ASAP. There is a "site waitlist" and it is moving.
Not sure why I'm even getting myself into this but here I go....
23 in the DO match - Not at all. Some of those people rank 0-1 places and plan on matching in the MD match. There's no way to tell who wanted to actually match versus those who didn't. Obviously there's a mix of the two but this number doesn't mean a whole lot.
14 in the MD - 7% of the class seems a little high to me. There's a lot of factors there and I won't even begin to speculate.
IMO, one of the reasons there are relatively less people who even try for ACGME is due to the abundance of AOA residencies in Michigan. This is unique to MSUCOM versus other schools and important because location is one of the top factors for choosing a match ROL.
And it's been mentioned before, the student gets themself the rockstar match - not the school. MSUCOM give plenty of elective time if one wants to pursue that.
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Where are you people getting these rural medicine myths about CHM?
I've been a student here for a couple of years and have never felt any particular emphasis on rural medicine. There is no rural medicine clerkship required unless you enroll in that specific program.
Also, we knew at the start of the year which 3rd year campus we would be assigned, as did the people going to Grand Rapids.
For your 1st year, you will take all science classes together, except anatomy. COM takes anatomy in the summer, and that's all they take - it is good to focus on that one monster class and be done with it in the fall. My friends in COM say they had an easier fall semester as a result, HOWEVER, they get overwhelmed in spring semester, when they are back with the full class load, which for ALL of us is a bear from Feb to March.
The class size for COM is huge and getting bigger. They seem to admit in general a younger average age. For me, those are cons, but they may be pros or cons for you, or neither. They seem to have a lot of fun together, but I don't think the school is more friendly than CHM is.
As a general trend, COM has much better support for its students than does CHM, currently. Mainly, I mean that academically, but in general they seem to think of more things that students could need before they need it than CHM does.
There aren't huge differences and for preclinical years, you're essentially in the same school. During rotations, there is a small amount of overlap with hospitals, obviously depending on where you land up. There are one or two couples here that have one in CHM and the other in COM. You might be able to contact the school and get their names.
Match stats do not help you as a pre-med. Trust me. You have no idea where people applied and wanted to go vs. where they ended up. You have no idea how well they were advised about where they would be capable of matching. For example, my COM friends have complained to me that they do not get very good advising for the match, and were not thrilled w/how things turned out for them as a result. Whereas, CHM puts a lot of time into that advising for its students, and almost everyone in this year's graduating class matched where they wanted. One person ignored advise, applied to ONLY California derm positions, and SURPRISE! Did not match (they did scramble into something else). As a premed, you have to believe that if YOU do well enough during school, you WILL match somewhere that will let you pursue what you want to pursue at that time. What other classes do before you is IRRELEVANT. Don't get caught up in it - it is a waste of energy.
I've been a student here for a couple of years and have never felt any particular emphasis on rural medicine. There is no rural medicine clerkship required unless you enroll in that specific program.
Also, we knew at the start of the year which 3rd year campus we would be assigned, as did the people going to Grand Rapids.
For your 1st year, you will take all science classes together, except anatomy. COM takes anatomy in the summer, and that's all they take - it is good to focus on that one monster class and be done with it in the fall. My friends in COM say they had an easier fall semester as a result, HOWEVER, they get overwhelmed in spring semester, when they are back with the full class load, which for ALL of us is a bear from Feb to March.
The class size for COM is huge and getting bigger. They seem to admit in general a younger average age. For me, those are cons, but they may be pros or cons for you, or neither. They seem to have a lot of fun together, but I don't think the school is more friendly than CHM is.
As a general trend, COM has much better support for its students than does CHM, currently. Mainly, I mean that academically, but in general they seem to think of more things that students could need before they need it than CHM does.
There aren't huge differences and for preclinical years, you're essentially in the same school. During rotations, there is a small amount of overlap with hospitals, obviously depending on where you land up. There are one or two couples here that have one in CHM and the other in COM. You might be able to contact the school and get their names.
Match stats do not help you as a pre-med. Trust me. You have no idea where people applied and wanted to go vs. where they ended up. You have no idea how well they were advised about where they would be capable of matching. For example, my COM friends have complained to me that they do not get very good advising for the match, and were not thrilled w/how things turned out for them as a result. Whereas, CHM puts a lot of time into that advising for its students, and almost everyone in this year's graduating class matched where they wanted. One person ignored advise, applied to ONLY California derm positions, and SURPRISE! Did not match (they did scramble into something else). As a premed, you have to believe that if YOU do well enough during school, you WILL match somewhere that will let you pursue what you want to pursue at that time. What other classes do before you is IRRELEVANT. Don't get caught up in it - it is a waste of energy.
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yeah but i'm not positive i want to go and i cant submit my choices without accepting first.. so i'm feeling it out. also, because of my recent acceptance, i would definitely be at the end of the list, so.
this is my impression too. large IS population among students, most of which want to stick around, why why woudln't you with plenty of AOA opportunities. unfortunately I don't want to stick around, at least not at the moment.
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why didn't you do COM?
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I did not apply to COM, and personally don't think I would've chosen it for tuition reasons (yes, COM is more expensive), class size (way too big for my taste), and average age of classmates. (But yes, I did apply to and get accepted to a few DO schools, and in retrospect, think I should've picked UMDNJ, but too late now.) People on here seem to think they are more friendly and maybe they are, but honestly to me, I interpret that as more of a sales act. So I think COM has a better sales dept. LOL
But I will say it seems most who do choose COM are happy with their choice.
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One other timing consideration for you to check into is about the end of 2nd year at COM. While everyone at CHM is finished with classes, and has study time for Step 1, their COM counterparts are just starting their Derm class. I don't know how long it runs for, but it seems to cut into boards prep study time.
Oh yeah, also find out how long each required clerkship is and which format you think would be more to your taste. CHM's core rotations all last 8 weeks, not 4 weeks.
Oh yeah, also find out how long each required clerkship is and which format you think would be more to your taste. CHM's core rotations all last 8 weeks, not 4 weeks.
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I like your style.
I posted this awhile ago and the decision needed to be made fairly quick. I chose COM since I had it set as my goal early on during undergrad. I have been accepted at COM since the first week of acceptances as well as my SO. We got pretty lucky. Our relationship is pretty significant as we plan on getting married.
A 3rd year resident from CHM that works at our at hospital thought it was great that we were accepted to the same program. She thought COM was a great school and that we would be able to stick together during clerkship better since there is not a ton of overlap. I know there is some overlap but not any locations that are favorable for us.
As a far as residency goes, I am not concerned. I feel that it will be based on how hard I work and what connections I can make during clerkship.
I am just super excited that I finally reached my goal and I cannot wait to start this summer. I think waiting until August would have killed me.
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