MSW/LCSW vs. PhD/PsyD

[PsychMode]

Too bad two people said "PhD" when they meant "doctoral degree"...maybe this particular misunderstanding could have been avoided. And please don't dismiss people's genuine concerns as "oversensitivity."

Paendrag, you very frequently make unnecessary, negative snipes at PsyDs and you know it, you sly devil! I would send you a compilation of examples but I would rather move on than be drawn into one of your semantic battles. You can be very helpful when you want to, as I know from experience, and I personally am glad you're here. I suspect that what comes across as arrogance and bluster on the internet might be more playful wryness in person. Please try to understand that your tone very often undermines what you have to say. (And adding a smiley face or a "j/k" at the end of an insult doen't make it funny or endearing).

Psici, I hope you will listen to what people are saying too. This forum is great but it would be a lot better if we didn't have to have these battles so frequently.

Yoroshiku,
winnie

As someone who is in a master's program with plans of pursuing a PhD in clinical psych (i.e., I'm not for pursuing the PsyD, MSW, or MA for myself, but I respect other people's choices and reasons for doing so), I must say that you seem to have hit the nail right on the head. I suspect that you will make a great psychologist.

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[50960]

As someone who is in a master's program with plans of pursuing a PhD in clinical psych (i.e., I'm not for pursuing the PsyD, MSW, or MA for myself, but I respect other people's choices and reasons for doing so), I must say that you seem to have hit the nail right on the head. I suspect that you will make a great psychologist.

I have no intention of alienating anyone, but the question was asked "what is the difference", and myself and others in the field attempted to answer that realistically. There are enough differences between clinicians such as me (Psy.D. clin psych; PhD, dev psych; MS psychopharm), and paendrag who is a scientist PhD in neuropsych to last us without trying to make everyone else feel good. There is a forum for midlevels and they will welcome you, you are also more than welcome here...we all have opinions. As MOD I think it is very important for students to know the real differences as they exist today even if reality makes someone feel less appreciated. This is a professional forum.

 

[Annakei]

There is a forum for midlevels and they will welcome you, you are also more than welcome here...

Where is this forum?

As for the battle on this forum that continues. I think it is pretty obvious that the majority of the posters on this thread disagree with the general tone of the thread and the MOD's inability to curtail the frequencies of the piss fests.

Then again this is just a forum and 2 or 3 people's opinions don't constitute the absolute truth of reality in mental health today. There are other professionals on this forum who manage to disseminate information about the field in a manner that answers questions without carrying on with such arrogance. Frankly, Paendrag's attitude is NOT representative of professionals in the field today. Maybe this forum serves as an ego booster because perhaps he isn't able to have it stroked in his REAL life.

....and folks...this is the internet...again...no need for arrogance. ITS THE INTERNET! GET OVER YOURSELVES.. The high maintenance attitude...arrogance...no one cares...in the real world anyway

 

[50960]

Thanks paendrag. As mod I intervene only if someone has broken the SDN rules, and nobody has come close. Making one feel not appreciated is not against the rules. Also, disagreement is one of the things that makes this type of forum interesting and well rounded so I encourage such threads; this thread has been one of the fastest growing in awhile, and is full of info. If we all just sat around and agreed with each other this forum would be dead. I disagree with paendrag on alot of things, but we have hashed it out on the forum, and now we live in peace. I am hoping you, we, us can do the same.
Hashing it out online is part of the fun. FYI, I am a practicing psycholgist who specializes in child psych and medical psych.

 

[winnie]

Aw thanks, PsychMode. You made my day.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I tend to read more on this forum than post, but I just have to add my 2 cents on this one. I used this forum extensively during the application process and I gained some valuable insights because of it. Although I was accepted into several top master's programs and a PhD clinical program, I chose to pursue my PsyD. The PhD program was not fully funded and on top of it, I didn't feel comfortable there. I am ecstatic with my decision to pursue a PsyD degree and I am also 100% happy with my decision to attend a professional school.

That being said, in my search of PsyD programs, I found many differences in curriculum and level of difficulty, as I did with PhD programs. The school I ultimately chose is a small professional school that I feel offers a much better education than several of the PhD programs I applied to. We should always give honest advice to those seeking application advice, but we also need to remember that 3 or 4 large professional schools with less than stellar reputations account for only a fraction of PsyD degrees awarded each year.

We have to stop overgeneralizing!! Since the application process has ended, I have been so turned off by this board. I am a PsyD student, which the forum is clearly intended for, yet everytime I come on here, I feel bashed, and this is only from reading threads, not participating. Now, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU and I think we should all be free to express our opinions, but I also think this forum could be so much more productive and interesing if we just put it to rest. Bitching on here is not going to change the system, so can't we just utilize the space in a professional manner and stop trying to one-up each other?

Can't we all just get along?!

 

[50960]

Yes we are a contentious lot! That is another unfortunate reality of our field, and one reason why I prefer to work in medical settings as opposed to mental health settings. As far as M's and the big D's go, one reason why the D's put down the M's is because we are arrogant about our training. This is the same reason why psychiatrists put down psychologists, why docs put down NP's and why nurses put down EMT's. I see it 2 ways: It is a lame thing to do, and childish, and .....I sometimes can't help myself.
I recently started working at a new medical clinic as the only psychologist; the other mental health providers are LCSW's. I love it there. After one week, one of the LCSW's came in asked me kindly not to refer to myself as Dr. S@#$ because it makes her look like less of therapist! This is where I cannot help myself...it really pushed my buttons. I wasn't going to do such a thing any way you slice it, but I certainly could have professionally told her why and left it at that. Point is this is an area that pushes people's buttons when people with less education compare themselves to people with more. It is silly, but universal.
I want to reiterate that although some have been very annoyed by this thread, I feel it has been one of the best we have had in awhile. I want heated, open discussion, and we have had that. Many have disagreed with certain opinions, and that is great...keep writing!! No person is more a member of this forum than the other, regardless of degree or degree track. That is my official, and honest statement as MOD...now back to my provoking opinions

 

[Sanman]

Well, I promised my self I would stay away for a little while, since I'm presently down in Virginia getting an apartment and all that goes with that. However, I can't resist responding to this thread.As far as PsyD programs are concerned, I hate professional schools. the reason for this is that I feel that unfunded programs put an undue burden on the student to find a high paying job to payoff their loans, when the reality of a career in psych is that in many cases this cannot be had. This ends up flooding the market with whatever specialty is hot. Also, many of these schools offer a subpar education. If you don't believe their is a website out there maintained by CSPP students talking about how terrible it is and telling people not to go there. It makes sense because smaller programs invest more in their students and will probably go farther to ensure that they succeed. That said, there are also a lot of poor PhD programs out there. I know of very reputable programs having funding crises, programs not having funding, students unable to graduate after 7-10 years because advisors want them to do research, and students at "Top" programs so miserable they want to drop out. I will be attending a PsyD program in the fall. The reason being that it had the most solid funding available (though not the highest offer moneywise), it had strong internship placements (especially in my specialty), very good graduation rate/time to graduation, and very friendly and supportive faculty. They have also graduated students who have gone on to become faculty and r1's despite the PsyD stigma. Overall, it seemed the best choice, where the students were happiest. The problem with doctoral programs in psych is that they vary so tremedously. It is hard to make blanket statements, but on an online forum it is hard not to.

As far as people degrading others degree, it will happen. It will because people spend a lot of time and money attaining their specific piece of paper and are biased. So, we have people proclaim they are the best and others are worse. The reality is that the competence of the provider is a blend of the education they recieved and the competence and self-education of that specific person. Everyone has their piece of the pie. Granted it is becoming muddier, but what isn't. I can do the same job as an MBA with by BA in psych. They'll complain too. The reality is that it is always greener on the other side and it is how you look at it. For example, many claim you shouldn't be a psychologist because MD's can overule you and don't have to listen to your recommendations. However, they also carry the reponsiblity of the patient and the higher malpractice. Frankly, I'm happy to do my assessment and make my recommendation, then go home to family and friends. My life is more peaceful that way. I can't stop an idiot on a powertrip and no matter what I do there will always be one. If you're an MD it will be your boss or the 20 year old on the other end of the line at the insurance company.

As far as the OP's question, I've talked to many mental health providers. I've heard the MSW is the most versatile of the masters level degrees. However, realize that the pay may be very low for the education. I've spoken a PhD psych and an MSW who had essentially the same job. Two sides to the coin, the MSW told me that they had the exact same job but the PhD got paid considerably more for it. Also, guess who will be firt in line to manage and supervise the other, despite fewer years on the job. If you are alright with these realities and don't want to go to the doctoral level, then go for it. However, be aware that you can't sximply believe that you can start of join a solid private practice and it will all be fine, this isn't the reality of the field anymore for the majority of newer grads. Good luck

 

[Flutterbyu]

The reality is that the competence of the provider is a blend of the education they recieved and the competence and self-education of that specific person.

I agree completely, we can't blame or credit the schools with everything.

 

[Flutterbyu]

Well, I promised my self I would stay away for a little while, since I'm presently down in Virginia getting an apartment and all that goes with that. However, I can't resist responding to this thread.As far as PsyD programs are concerned, I hate professional schools. the reason for this is that I feel that unfunded programs put an undue burden on the student to find a high paying job to payoff their loans, when the reality of a career in psych is that in many cases this cannot be had. This ends up flooding the market with whatever specialty is hot. Also, many of these schools offer a subpar education. If you don't believe their is a website out there maintained by CSPP students talking about how terrible it is and telling people not to go there. It makes sense because smaller programs invest more in their students and will probably go farther to ensure that they succeed. That said, there are also a lot of poor PhD programs out there. I know of very reputable programs having funding crises, programs not having funding, students unable to graduate after 7-10 years because advisors want them to do research, and students at "Top" programs so miserable they want to drop out. I will be attending a PsyD program in the fall. The reason being that it had the most solid funding available (though not the highest offer moneywise), it had strong internship placements (especially in my specialty), very good graduation rate/time to graduation, and very friendly and supportive faculty. They have also graduated students who have gone on to become faculty and r1's despite the PsyD stigma. Overall, it seemed the best choice, where the students were happiest.

Just had to add this: going along with not all school are created equal. Like I said, I will be attending a small professional school in the fall. I interviewed for field placements last month and walked away with an offer to recieve $20 an hour for my practicum next year. Also, the school had a 100% match rate for APA internships last year. The average length of study is 4.5 years and this school also has recent graduates in faculty positions at area universities. And no, I am not in the backwoods somewhere, local universities are located in Boston.

I am not trying to defend aything here (ok maybe a little!) but I just want to make a public statement regarding the differences in programs in schools. I understand that professional schools have a bad rep and in most instances, it appears, it is warranted. BUT, there are expections.

 

[50960]

Paendrag, come down from your ivory tower for a minute to see what it's like in the REAL world!!

 

[50960]

I bet you are a mama's boy... That, "everyone is stupid but me" attitude is probably why you can't work with people.

 

[Flutterbyu]

That's great that there is a 100% placement rate and that you can get paid practicums (many can't). Also, it's nice that the students have had some success. You're going to Mas school of prof psych right? It's something like $700 per credit hour and it's 4.5 years not counting internship, from reading the website. That's still going to be really expensive. Do they charge for the internship too (some programs do)?

Yes, I am going to MSPP and yes, if you are not proactive about findinf funding, it is quite expensive. It averages about $22,000 per year, but with some savvy financial aid investigation, there are ways to fund yourself. For my first year, I have so far accumulated $8000 in scholarships and $2500 in grants. I realize I will be in debt when I graduate, but I won't be $80,000-$100,000 in debt because I won't allow it to happen. As far as internships, you do a half-time (non APA approved) internship in your 3rd and 4th years, which many people consider enough and then graduate after 4 years, as long as the dissertation (or doctoral project) is completed. There is no charge for the internships and the majority of the 3rd and 4th years are paid. Of course, there is the option of taking on a 5th year APA internship. I was reading in the Moniter a few months ago about some APA internship programs doing half time, 2 year internships, wich would reduce the time to 4 years.

Anyway, yes it is more expensive than a fully funded program, but I'm a single mom and I'm living with my folks (ugh!!) in order to finish school, so relocation was not an option. Sure, if I was able to apply all over the US and not worry about geography, I may have found my dream PhD program, with full funding and a top reputation, but I was limited to where I could apply. So in my case, I am thankful for professional schools because without them I would not be able to fullfill a goal that I have worked very hard for. I graduated first in my class for undergrad and I can't imagine not being able to go on for my doctorate. I was very close to accepting a spot in the masters program at Boston College and using it to transition into the PhD program, which they assured me was a likely possibility, but like I said, I have a child, and I really can't spend the next 6-8 years working on this degree. So enough about my saga, I just hope that some people will read this and see that professional schools may not all be the horrible, diploma mills that they are seen as (I picture sweat shops with that reference!), and that they may serve a practical purpose in some cases.

 

[50960]

I agree flutterby, and I went to a professional school for the very same reasons you did...kid/life circumstances. Not everyone has all the breaks to make it to the best program, but we can still be exceptional psychologists. My school was small and looked down on by many because of this, but the training was great, and that is what counts. I have been licensed 5 years, am on medical staff of 2 hospitals, and have all the work I can manage.

 

[Annakei]

Very encouraging post Flutterbyu! I was just having the very same conversation with my fiancee about wanting to apply to a professional in the south but unsure of its reputation. You make a very good point regarding the practicalities of your decision.

MY fiancee may be relocating (work) after graduation/wedding and it will be the only PsyD school in the area along with about 3 research oriented clinical PHD programs. EVEN IF I had superior stats I would only be interested in maybe 1 and that is because it has an equal emphasis on research and clinical practice. So as it stands, if we were to move there, that would be this professional school a viable option due to the lack of options in clinical psychology programs in that state.

Yes, I am going to MSPP and yes, if you are not proactive about findinf funding, it is quite expensive. It averages about $22,000 per year, but with some savvy financial aid investigation, there are ways to fund yourself. For my first year, I have so far accumulated $8000 in scholarships and $2500 in grants. I realize I will be in debt when I graduate, but I won't be $80,000-$100,000 in debt because I won't allow it to happen. As far as internships, you do a half-time (non APA approved) internship in your 3rd and 4th years, which many people consider enough and then graduate after 4 years, as long as the dissertation (or doctoral project) is completed. There is no charge for the internships and the majority of the 3rd and 4th years are paid. Of course, there is the option of taking on a 5th year APA internship. I was reading in the Moniter a few months ago about some APA internship programs doing half time, 2 year internships, wich would reduce the time to 4 years.

Anyway, yes it is more expensive than a fully funded program, but I'm a single mom and I'm living with my folks (ugh!!) in order to finish school, so relocation was not an option. Sure, if I was able to apply all over the US and not worry about geography, I may have found my dream PhD program, with full funding and a top reputation, but I was limited to where I could apply. So in my case, I am thankful for professional schools because without them I would not be able to fullfill a goal that I have worked very hard for. I graduated first in my class for undergrad and I can't imagine not being able to go on for my doctorate. I was very close to accepting a spot in the masters program at Boston College and using it to transition into the PhD program, which they assured me was a likely possibility, but like I said, I have a child, and I really can't spend the next 6-8 years working on this degree. So enough about my saga, I just hope that some people will read this and see that professional schools may not all be the horrible, diploma mills that they are seen as (I picture sweat shops with that reference!), and that they may serve a practical purpose in some cases.

 

[winnie]

Hey Anna, Flutter and Robin. I didn't realize that all you guys were non-trad students too (or that Psici had been one). I'm happy! I hope we can keep a discussion going and support each other. I'm starting my program next month. I haven't been a full-time student since 1988

So much to do, so much to do...

 

[Annakei]

I agree we should! What program are you starting if you don't mind me asking?

Hey Anna, Flutter and Robin. I didn't realize that all you guys were non-trad students too (or that Psici had been one). I'm happy! I hope we can keep a discussion going and support each other. I'm starting my program next month. I haven't been a full-time student since 1988

So much to do, so much to do...

 

[winnie]

I'm starting a PsyD program. I'd rather not broadcast the name (although I have in the past ) but it's one of the cheaper ones.

 

[DaffyDoc]

Hi Winnie. You will be going to Indiana U. of PA.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I'm not sure I follow. You have to do an internship (not an externship) and a postdoc to get licensed. You can't do an internship during classwork. Also, how would a half time internship reduce the time? It would add a year, yes?

Well, apparently you can do an internship while taking classes because every year MSPP graduates a class that immediately moves into post-doc positions and become licensed. I will be the first to admit that I am not up-to-date on the specific APA rules on this stuff, but I can report that this is how it works at this particular school. Granted, in your 4th year you are only taking one class and writing your diss. A half time APA internship would allow you to do the 3rd and 4th year internship as usual, but get APA approval for it, which really only matters if you are planning to practice out of state or get a position with the VA system. Trust me, an excellent student that does a 2-year non-APA internship at a site like Dana Farber Cancer Institute, or Boston Children's Hospital (or any other Harvard affiliates) will have no problem slipping into a post-doc position in this geographic area.