Mt. Sinai Psychiatry is a joke

[Sigmundoscopist]

Now that I graduated from Mt. Sinai's residency program in psychiatry, I wish to share my thoughts (albeit anonymously):

The program is a complete joke, largely due to the inadequate administration. Basically, the program director is this really old guy who used to run Columbia, before he was forced into retirement. For some reason, Mt. Sinai decided to pick him up despite his age. He's been at Mt. Sinai for the last 8 years, and while he is good at getting funding, the residency training aspect of the program has gone down the drain. This is due to the fact that he cares more about turning the resident's into secretaries for attendings than he cares about resident education. It is also due to the fact that he has spent so much time as an administrator and has no idea how psychiatry is actually practiced or what it is like to be a resident or attending. The worst part is that he is so powerful that he is experiencing "the emperor's new clothes" phenomenon.

So this is what psychiatry was like at Mt. SInai:

Being a private hospital, Mt. Sinai's administration cares about the bottom line more than anything else. While being financially oriented is understandable, what is unfortunate is that this is done at the expense of patient care and resident education. I was regularly told to practice the shadiest psychiatry, so that the hospital and attendings whatever financial and legal incentives that they wished to meet. Eg. I was forced to increase a patient's medications when it was not indicated for billings sake, or to fabricate notes on a patient in order to justify a certain action. Now I know that shady psychiatry is not unique to Sinai by any means, but the issue at Sinai was that the administration enforced this culture. The administration turned a blind eye to whatever was happening on the unit and acted upon whatever the attendings said about the resident. If a resident voiced her own opinion (even very minor suggestions), the administration would smile and pretend it was listening, but then later found excuses to persecute the resident to shut them up.

Basically, the unwritten code at Sinai is that every resident is supposed to smile and pretend how great the training is, when everyone knows that it is a joke. The administration spends 90% of its time harassing and intimidating residents and 10% of its time working on the training. The program calls the harassing "education". The job of the administration seems to be to make sure that the residents are docile secretaries rather than good psychiatrists. The residents talk about the program director among themselves, but no one can stand up to the PD, as he simply has too much power. Furthermore, any genuine effort the PD puts in to make the training better is usually in vain, since he is so old and completely out of touch with how psychiatry is practiced. So you see the dilemma....the program director is incompetent because he is so old, the resident's can't voice their suggestions because they will get persecuted, and the result is that the training becomes a joke.

That said, the program remains competitive because it is in Manhattan, so the applicants who get accepted are generally pretty bright. The politically correct party line is that the residents have to be "self-motivated" about their education.

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[bedevilled ben]

Can you give some specific examples of why you felt the training was poor? Your criticisms thus far are kind of vague, though I understand you don't want to get too specific. Students as secretaries and hospital bottom lines are pretty common complaints from students, residents, attendings, and PDs alike. As a student considering psychiatry residencies in NY, I would be grateful if you can expand on your complaints.

 

[wolfvgang22]

You obviously feel very strongly about this, Sigmundoscopist. If it was as bad as you say, you have my sympathy. I hope your fellowship is better.
Have any residents from your program expressed their concerns anonymously to the psychiatry ACGME RRC? If a few people (more than one) did that I would expect the committee to audit the program.

Are you concerned about your identity being uncovered, and then facing retaliation for your opinion? I would, if I were in your place.
Residencies are not particularly large groups of people. I calculated that my own program director, in a medium sized program, would only train about 120 residents over a 20 year career, so your unlikely to be forgotten (whether that's good or bad.)
Even if you've moved on from the program, often times you need program directors to fill out various forms for licensure, board certification exams, etc., which is why I think many people don't say negative things about their residency publicly. At least if you took your concerns to the ACGME you might have some protection against future retaliation.

 

[Shikima]

It really is too bad you have to fear against retribution but feel safe enough to post anonymously with some cautions.

 

[slappy]

Now that I graduated from Mt. Sinai's residency program in psychiatry, I wish to share my thoughts (albeit anonymously):

I'm curious as to what your motivation to do this could be. What do you stand to gain from posting about it on a public forum like SDN? Some sort of vindictiveness towards the program, and wish to sabotage their match results this year? I think it's more likely that the post was written by a "Sinai-hopeful" who recently interviewed at the program than someone who recently graduated from the program. But hey, that's me.

 

[Nasrudin]

I'm curious as to what your motivation to do this could be. What do you stand to gain from posting about it on a public forum like SDN? Some sort of vindictiveness towards the program, and wish to sabotage their match results this year? I think it's more likely that the post was written by a "Sinai-hopeful" who recently interviewed at the program than someone who recently graduated from the program. But hey, that's me.

I agree that uncorroborated testimony that has not been vetted at least for sincerity with a longer post history is suspect.

 

[Gavanshir]

Regardless of your motive, thanks for sharing. It's not to get insight into programs and if someone from the program disagrees, then please do share your view.

Now there are actually 4 different Mt. Sinai programs, which one does the OP's post refer to? Beth Israel, Elmhurst, St. Luke's Roosevelt or just the plain Mt. Sinai program?

 

[EpiIV]

I'm curious as to what your motivation to do this could be. What do you stand to gain from posting about it on a public forum like SDN? Some sort of vindictiveness towards the program, and wish to sabotage their match results this year? I think it's more likely that the post was written by a "Sinai-hopeful" who recently interviewed at the program than someone who recently graduated from the program. But hey, that's me.

I'd like to hear more thoughts from the OP on this too. I'm interviewing with two Mt. Sinai programs and if this indeed is the case, I would straight up cancel my trip to NYC entirely. But without knowing which program they are speaking of, or exactly who is doing the speaking, I'm just going to proceed, albeit with some caution. Because what is there to gain from trashing a program if you're not a resident who has been sickend by mistreatment? A student who wants an easier time getting an interview or match for one program that they probably haven't even interviewed with at this point in the season? A personal vendetta from a rival program that wants to shave off a few extra qualified potential candidates? Anonymity comes with low risk, but there's not much to gain given that any slot that someone would give up is going to easily be filled by one of the hundreds of qualified applicants who have also applied.

 

[barzan]

Thank you for sharing it must be a huge step to do so, yet it is only a one side of the story is told.

 

[alwaysastudent2]

In all honesty, I don't think you did very well in this residency, and now you are trying to be vindictive . There are zero facts in your post, which appears to be as reliable as any gossip out there. I feel if you really felt so strongly about this residency, you would have addressed it with acgme or your program director. Posting a gossip on sdn seems to be very cowardly and childish. Get over it. Stop being bitter, and focus on the future and not the past.

A lot of people would be happy to be a resident at mount Sinai,and you should be grateful for this opportunity.
You have absolutely NO clue what a bad malignant residency is. NONE whatsoever. You can trust me on that one. All that I read in your post is a childish gossip of a bitter child. Nothing else.

 

[milesed]

Sounds like insurance fraud. Why didn't you switch to another program?

 

[hamstergang]

I have no idea if any of this is true or not. That said, I don't get why so many are so strongly doubting OP. His posting this here is entirely consistent with his story -- that is, if he graduated from a bad residency that made him scared to speak up, then it wouldn't be weird to anonymously post about it post-graduation as a warning to others. Your other explanations are possible, but his claims are not unreasonable.

Also, for those wondering which program, I would imagine (though I didn't verify) that only one of them has an old PD who used to be PD at Columbia.

 

[Dharma]

In all honesty, I don't think you did very well in this residency, and now you are trying to be vindictive . There are zero facts in your post, which appears to be as reliable as any gossip out there. I feel if you really felt so strongly about this residency, you would have addressed it with acgme or your program director. Posting a gossip on sdn seems to be very cowardly and childish. Get over it. Stop being bitter, and focus on the future and not the past.

A lot of people would be happy to be a resident at mount Sinai,and you should be grateful for this opportunity.
You have absolutely NO clue what a bad malignant residency is. NONE whatsoever. You can trust me on that one. All that I read in your post is a childish gossip of a bitter child. Nothing else.

Another interesting debut posting...

 

[Armadillos]

Wow this thread has all the ingredients for some amazing drama. The fact that this was posted in Nov and not July/August makes you more skeptical.


But then we have the grand appearance of alwaysastudent, whatever program that poster is associated with I would basically completely write off as most likely malignant. So that being said I wonder if any applicant would have been so cunning to double down with some second level trolling to try to really scare people away

 

[whopper]

A problem with the system is that it is very hard for residents to get word out to the public on a bad program. Anonymous posts could be valid. They may not be.

 

[Sigmundoscopist]

I just feel like there should be some transparency and accountability for the stuff that happens to residents in residency. I feel like there are other programs out there that are like this, but I happen to have gone to Mt Sinai. There really isn't any other way to hold these types of programs and their administration accountable...

 

[nitemagi]

I just feel like there should be some transparency and accountability for the stuff that happens to residents in residency. I feel like there are other programs out there that are like this, but I happen to have gone to Mt Sinai. There really isn't any other way to hold these types of programs and their administration accountable...

So can you clarify what they should be held "accountable" for? Fraud? Encouraging non-ideal practices? Following hospital administration guidelines?

What are the errs, and what is the damage?

 

[vistaril]

Sigmund- I have no idea what mt Sinai is like(nor do I care), but I can assure you that unless you want to one day work for Sinai again(or work in academics with people who are buds with certain people from Sinai), nobody is going to care if you blast Sinai or many of the people there.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Sigmund- I have no idea what mt Sinai is like(nor do I care), but I can assure you that unless you want to one day work for Sinai again(or work in academics with people who are buds with certain people from Sinai), nobody is going to care if you blast Sinai or many of the people there.

Vistaril tells it like it is. I seriously doubt Drs. Davis, Rieder, Goodman, or Nestler care what a supposed recent grad of the program has to say. People complain in every program, and every major academic department is going to have its issues. And as mentioned, Sinai has no problems filling its residency classes with competitive applicants.

 

[jakeislove]

People/programs may not always a perfect fit. Name-brand recognition, scores, or whatever parameters used to make final selections may not work in real life.

I don't have to worry about Mt Sinai, LOL!

 

[GC0131]

Whether Sigmund's post is accurate or not doesn't even matter - the whole thing is a moot point. I just interviewed at Sinai and they have an entirely new program director for next year, Dr. Antonia New. We met her and she seems really invested in improving the residency - in fact, they've completely changed the curriculum to include much less inpatient time and more outpatient. I was talking to one of the interns at the lunch and he said they're really excited about Dr. New taking over, and that she's really well liked. He went to med school at Sinai and was telling me how she totally revamped the Psych clerkship there and is really responsive to feedback. If Sigmund really just graduated from Sinai shouldn't he have known they've got a new training director? In which case all his complaining about the current director/administration really just seems more vindictive than constructive.

 

[splik]

I have to say while I think it was poor form for the OP to make value-based attacks on the PD for being "so old" etc, it does upset me when time and again people attack posters who vent their grievances about programs. We are very lucky in psychiatry that there are few truly malignant programs, but the reality is that sometimes residency programs treat their residents badly, or more commonly particular residents get singled out and forced to work in a hostile environment. Residents often are made to do things they consider unethical, are threatened, made an example of, or driven to depression, addiction or even suicide. I feel very strongly that people should be able to post their criticisms/grievances, anonymously if necessary, though they should probably do so when they don't feel overwrought with emotion and have re-read what they have written to make sure they don't later regret it. The fact that people keep quiet about this, and there is this enactment where applicants and residents collude to protect toxic institutions by burying their heads in the sand, is what allows these things to continue to happen.

As psychiatrists we should see the complementary countertransference and splitting going here when people start attacking posters for openly voicing their criticisms and understand where that hostility is coming from. Sure sometimes the resident is the problem, but there are far too many toxic institutions out there. I am talking in generalities as don't know enough about Mt Sinai.

I do believe the OP is who s/he says s/he is and yes it is more than likely that a graduate doesn't know who the PD is going to be next year (why would they?). There are programs where the residents and faculty aren't even sure who the current PD is! (I kid you not).

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Whether Sigmund's post is accurate or not doesn't even matter - the whole thing is a moot point. I just interviewed at Sinai and they have an entirely new program director for next year, Dr. Antonia New. We met her and she seems really invested in improving the residency - in fact, they've completely changed the curriculum to include much less inpatient time and more outpatient. I was talking to one of the interns at the lunch and he said they're really excited about Dr. New taking over, and that she's really well liked. He went to med school at Sinai and was telling me how she totally revamped the Psych clerkship there and is really responsive to feedback. If Sigmund really just graduated from Sinai shouldn't he have known they've got a new training director? In which case all his complaining about the current director/administration really just seems more vindictive than constructive.

That's interesting. I thought Dr. Rieder was brought to MSSM specifically because he at one time was revered as the quintessential PD. I interviewed with Dr. New and liked her a lot, as well as Dr. R. I have several personal connections with the dept, but I didn't rank it highly because it wasn't the right fit for me. Nevertheless... great program.

 

[jjmack]

What happened to the former associate PD?

That's interesting. I thought Dr. Rieder was brought to MSSM specifically because he at one time was revered as the quintessential PD. I interviewed with Dr. New and liked her a lot, as well as Dr. R. I have several personal connections with the dept, but I didn't rank it highly because it wasn't the right fit for me. Nevertheless... great program.

 

[futurepsychres]

As a current resident at Mount Sinai (Icahn School of Medicine), I'd like to share some of my experience. While I reorganized my match list about 20 times before submitting it, obsessing over a few programs in NYC (all of which I thought were excellent for different reasons), I have been overwhelmed by how positive my experience has been thus far. Knowing what I do now, I would rank Sinai first without thinking twice about it.
1) to echo some other posts, non-profit hospitals in Manhattan must be concerned about their "bottom lines." Dr. Davis is revered as a tremendously successful leader, and he also happens to be a very accomplished physician/scientist in the field of psychiatry. With the changes in healthcare, Sinai is now the largest healthcare provider in New York. We are lucky as residents that we work for a financially secure operation, and I thank our administration for this.
2) Dr. Rieder was an enormous lure for many of us, who chose Sinai. He is one of the founders of psychiatry residency training, and our program is stronger now than it has ever been thanks to his and Dr. Simon's leadership. Dr. Rieder has residents at his home on a regular basis, attends our didactics, runs morning report twice a week. If there's a problem, his office door is almost always open and these ageist attacks are offensive
3) Documentation is important in all fields; it's an important skill to learn and important to excel at it, however annoying it may feel while you're in the thick of inpatient work. From what I understand, this is true across programs and across specialties. To go into residency expecting that you won't have to act on behalf of your attendings is misinformed. Residency at Sinai can be difficult. There are times you disagree with your attendings, but in retrospect, you will come to realize there's a lot to learn from them. I have learned this repeatedly throughout my time at Sinai.
4) Asher Simon is the associate PD and is supportive, accessible and cares tirelessly about the well-being of his residents. He is engaged on a daily basis in our education, teaches us regularly, and most residents adore him
5) Dr. New is a natural selection for the next program director. Her experience in education, patient care, and research speak for themselves . She is compassionate, ambitious, and approachable.
6) Drs. Simon and New are responding to resident feedback; they have made several changes that reflect the future of psychiatry -- inpatient time with the most acute patients, partial hospital exposure, early outpatient psychopharm management, increasing elective and outpatient time.
7) There is not a single experience that defines psychiatry training at Sinai. The program is flexible and accommodating. They have the funding to support whatever research you want to pursue and help you explore many interests across psychiatry in as many settings as you choose.
8) The residents in our program are outstanding. We support each other, have diverse interests in and out of psychiatry. We have time to pursue what we're passionate about. By and large, the residents are happy, and the PDs have every incentive to keep us that way.

In no way does Sigmundoscopist's experience reflect the normal experience of Sinai residents. We are generally pretty happy people. It is sad that this doctor was not able to take advantage of the wonderful aspects of our residency program.

 

[Lysinee]

-Trashes the program (try to make some people rank it lower)
-Ranks it #1 in 2015

Always cautious of 1st time posters.

 

[slappy]

Oh well.

 

[whopper]

Futurepsychres,

You don't have to do it but it would add credibility to your argument if you were willing to state your name. If you don't, no problem. I could understand someone not wanting the attention.

If a program had, say, 5% of it's residents unhappy most people would say that's not a bad figure at all. That could be just 1 unhappy resident. I'd be more inclined to believe what's going on based on the general view of most of the residents. Further, even if the program had problems a new PD is certainly a landmark changing event.

Another aspect I've seen in residents and new-attendings is they've only seen things from just one to a few perspectives. E.g. if one were in a private hospital, they will see things worse in some ways and better in others not matter how good or bad the place is and could deplore the worse. Then they work in another place and see the new place as worse, then think to themselves that the first place wasn't really bad at all.

A better standard of judgment is considering how the place is vs several other places. Granted that's a level of perception that could only come with time.

Another valid standard is did the program do anything that was significantly unreasonable? E.g., I mentioned this in another thread but a PD, for example, lying about a situation is just black and white inexcusable. There are accusations but without specific examples of such.

For example, the residents do not feel they can complain? Did anyone try to complain? What happened to them? Why specifically do they feel this way?

The former PD, yes he might have been better at obtaining funding. Each PD can offer their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Shrinky Dink]

I am a current intern and have been extremely happy with the program, the PD, etc. The upperclassmen seem happy as well, and they are invested in the program as evidenced by really taking time to engage with the interns, helping us adjust to the hospital, and communicating with the administration (this is how the curricular changes came to fruition - resident feedback!). I'm not sure who the original poster was, and none of us can refute their experience, but I agree that this is not the norm here. I chose Sinai because the residents came off as academically excellent, but also happy and well balanced. Since starting this year, these things have turned out to be true. The attendings on the psychiatry units are generally great, and the administration has been nothing but supportive.

If any of you have questions about the program and want answers from a current resident, PM me and I am happy to help. As you can see, I am not a first time poster, so you can trust that I am not making things up. My class (of 14 people) is happy, close, satisfied, and learning a lot.

With lots of love from the call room,
Shrinky Dink

 

[nitemagi]

Another aspect I've seen in residents and new-attendings is they've only seen things from just one to a few perspectives. E.g. if one were in a private hospital, they will see things worse in some ways and better in others not matter how good or bad the place is and could deplore the worse. Then they work in another place and see the new place as worse, then think to themselves that the first place wasn't really bad at all.

This.

 

[futurepsychres]

Whopper, I appreciate your post. I'm not sure that there's anything meaningful that would come from revealing my identity. I was never a SDN frequenter, nor have I posted much. However, you can see that I am not a new resident from my prior posts. I welcome any private messages and hope to meet some of you as you pass through Sinai on your interview trail. I also hope that Sigmoidoscopist's rather inflammatory post will not dissuade potential applicants from coming to ICahn SOM of Mount Sinai with an open mind.

In the end, you cannot get a sense of a residency experience from a few sdn posts or even from the few hours you spend on a campus on interview day. For that reason, I think it's important that applicants seek as much information as possible and hear from many residents about their opinions. I also want applicants who are lucky enough to match at Sinai to rest assured that most of us have not found the experience or administration to be malignant, that most of us are really excited about our future career prospects, and feel that the leadership and community at Sinai allows us to reach whatever goals we wish to pursue.

Good luck to everyone this interview season. If you have chosen psych and you're a happy person, chances are you'll have a wonderful experience wherever you are. In my biased opinion, the one at Sinai is unparalleled 😉 but take that with a grain of salt.

 

[whopper]

Fair enough. A problem with complaining in a residency program is many are still in the dark ages of destroying the person's career for doing so. I knew of a few that did that a few years ago though I cannot say they still do this because I haven't kept tabs on them.

So some residents want to get the word out and they complain about their program but out of fear do not reveal their names. It's understandable, but also can unfairly hurt a program since the complainer could simply be a troller and/or not a true representation of the real program.

IMHO we should welcome complaints because it's hard to get the real word out, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't know much about the Mt. Sinai program though a sister of a good friend did graduate from it about two years ago. I never heard her complain much about it though it's not like I was expecting her to do so even if she hated it cause I couldn't do much and we don't see each other much anymore (it's been years, but I see her Facebook remarks often).

I find the idea of a PD that is much better at getting funding and weak in other areas a realistic scenario but that doesn't make it true. It could also be that such a PD is actually what the department needed at the time. Hard to say without more specific examples.

 

[Ironspy]

I interviewed at Sinai this interview cycle and almost didn't go because I wasn't sure I'd be willing to move to Manhattan. As an applicant 1/2 way through interview season, Sinai is currently at the top of my list. I was very impressed with the residents I met and I talked with a bunch of them. They seemed bright, ambitious and happy with their training and work-life balance. I met with both the current and future PD and they both seemed enthusiastic and passionate about resident education and have a vision for where they want the program to go. Neither seemed out of touch and they are updating the curriculum to include more outpatient exposure PGY2 based on resident feedback. I know applicant info should be taken with a grain of salt and I don't have much posting history either but at least to me Sinai seemed like a great program. Best of luck to all.

 

[whopper]

IMHO a real indicator of how a program is hearing how the residents feel about it and not with the attendings listening in on the conversation.

 

[member2721]

When I interviewed and second looked Mt Sinai's program, I thought their PD and associate PDs were all great people- they listened, had a lot of experience, and invested in education for the right reasons. Their PD in particular went the extra mile I thought to try to set me up with faculty that shared my interests, and on the trail, other PDs seemed to have a healthy respect for him and his contributions to the field of psychiatry education.

 

[jettavr6]

The original poster is probably genuine and there is probably a lot of truth to what he or she is saying. Residency is like any competitive job - it's the gentle balance of merit and politics that one has to play in order to succeed. Note to future residents - Finish reading "The Art of War" before your first day of residency.

Your program director does care about you - they care that you show up for work, do your job, and that you cause them as little hassle as possible. If you got into a car accident, the extent to what your program director cares about, is how long your recuperation will be and how many days off from work you will be taking, or if they will need to fill your spot with another warm body. Ultimately, your program director has to run a unit of a business and is essentially a senior managing director - your attendings are managers/supervisors and you are an employee.

Residency is full of racism, sexism, harassment, and variety of other indignities. Know your rights and where to draw the line, but for the post part - grow thicker skin. At the end of the day, the PD is using you and you will be using them - the key point is to learn how to navigate this relationship. When you leave residency, more than likely you will be taking a position as an employee of a hospital system or health group and will be dealing with someone else in a similar managerial role - the cycle repeats itself.

I'll admit that what I've written is overly dramatic and cynical. In most cases it's not this bad. However, if you prepare yourself beforehand and begin to put things into context, you'll suffer much less disappointment later.

 

[jettavr6]

When I interviewed and second looked Mt Sinai's program, I thought their PD and associate PDs were all great people- they listened, had a lot of experience, and invested in education for the right reasons. Their PD in particular went the extra mile I thought to try to set me up with faculty that shared my interests, and on the trail, other PDs seemed to have a healthy respect for him and his contributions to the field of psychiatry education.

Remember - the PDs, vice chairmans, chairmans are invested in themselves and their careers - do not delude yourself into thinking otherwise. Likewise, you can and should use this to your advantage.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...
Residency is full of racism, sexism, harassment, and variety of other indignities. Know your rights and where to draw the line, but for the post part - grow thicker skin. At the end of the day, the PD is using you and you will be using them - the key point is to learn how to navigate this relationship. When you leave residency, more than likely you will be taking a position as an employee of a hospital system or health group and will be dealing with someone else in a similar managerial role - the cycle repeats itself.

I'll admit that what I've written is overly dramatic and cynical. In most cases it's not this bad. However, if you prepare yourself beforehand and begin to put things into context, you'll suffer much less disappointment later.

Damn right it is. PDs aren't making any more money in this career than any attending with similar seniority. If there are a couple out there who are on some kind of power trip, well God help them, and help you to spot them. For most of us though, we've chosen this role, with all of its administrative hassles, because we are committed to ensuring that your residency is NOT "full of racism, sexism, harassment, and variety of other indignities". And yeah, I like when residents cause me "as little hassle as possible", because it means that they are professionals, decent human beings, and I'll be able to write honestly glowing letters of reference when it's all over.

 

[whopper]

IMHO you got to be crazy to want to be a PD unless you actually really want to teach and work with younger people. Even the few PDs I've seen that I thought were terrible still wanted to teach and had a passion for it. Their problems were not in lack of passion but their own personality flaws. E.g. one PD I knew cared more about her popularity than professionalism and she couldn't see it. A lot of people noticed her committing boundary violations that did lead to problems, but she did actually want to teach.

Being a PD doesn't make you more money vs several other things that are easier. It comes with it's headaches, and there will be bad residents that a PD will have to face.

 

[jettavr6]

Being a PD doesn't make you more money vs several other things that are easier. It comes with it's headaches, and there will be bad residents that a PD will have to face.

Not all positions of authority are well paid, and many such as program directorships are more a matter of prestige than anything else. Nonetheless, there are people in these positions that may not be the most reasonable of people - future residents need to understand that they will encounter these types and need to learn to deal with them.

 

[whopper]

True. One could still be a bad PD, but IMHO one doesn't take that position for money.

Some issues I've seen with bad PDs
1-ego trip (e.g. condescends residents, has them make his coffee)
2-the person is trapped in a high school level of development (my above example the person was this) and starts picking out favorites, an in-group, and commits resident splitting.
3-The PD is too weak-they won't discipline residents that should be disciplined
4-Too controlling. While that could be from an ego-trip it could also be from personal insecurities

 

[dl2dp2]

Update to this thread, since I found it...

The PD may have changed, but I get the feeling the current PD is infinitely more toxic than the last one.

lol cc: @tr

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Update to this thread, since I found it...

The PD may have changed, but I get the feeling the current PD is infinitely more toxic than the last one.

???

 

[throwaway2099]

I’m so sorry to hear this. I was at Mount Sinai some years ago and this was an ongoing issue. I don’t want to pin too much blame on the PD— while I think she is (deep down) well meaning, these issues you mention are unsurprising. overall, i am very sad to hear this, as I’ve always recalled the PD pushing for good causes like more representation of women in medicine

Let’s not forget, however, that toxic leadership is structural and starts at the top. The psychiatry department leadership as well as the medical school’s top honcho (who previously was chair of psychiatry at Sinai ) are not exactly known as champions of wellness. It’s not easy working under those people . I was honestly sort of expecting the prabhjot Singh debacle to weaken the dean’s grip and maybe spur a Jeff Lieberman’s styled resignation but clearly it didn’t happen.

Also more details … -> Equity Now at Mount Sinai

One Night at Mount Sinai

Aja Newman went to the emergency room for shoulder pain. Her doctor was a superstar. What’s the worst that could happen?

www.thecut.com

 

[deleted1174813]

The tweet from Lieberman was more of a perfectly timed excuse (a lot of people hated him and what better way to get rid of a boomer white guy than a racist/sexist tweet). And at Columbia the chair isn't actually that powerful- it's the area leaders and Division Chiefs who have the real power, which sort of worked until a catastrophe happened that affected the whole department. And we still have a lack of leadership because Tom Smith is a total idiot and even dumber than he looks, which is hard to imagine

 

[doughnutty]

I didn't mean for this to get a reaction since this is a dead thread and I don't want to badmouth anyone. There has been a lot of recent talk though, and the following is just my opinion:

So, APD is OK...but odd to approach. I think that the program director lets her resentment get the best of her a lot of the time. Whenever something was brought up, there was some lip service but nothing happened. And it wasn't like we asked for anything outrageous. Not receptive. There's a lot of "fake niceness." There is also no transparency. No criticism will go unpunished. So, everyone is scared and they pretend she is doing a great job. There's an air of arrogance about her which comes just really rubs you the wrong way. On top of this, I feel like the PD is very disorganized? My cohort and myself have had such a bad experience dealing with things happening at the whim of her emotional ups and downs. No one will say anything because we are all scared of her.

It's just been very tough. Wishing the future cohorts the best.

I'm a current resident at Sinai and straight up none of this is true. Our PDs are very caring people who do the best for our education, who are extremely receptive to feedback, and who really advocate for us. Long story, but we know the person writing these messages is not a current resident. Been a really weird experience since people seem to want to believe that things are bad or toxic or whatever, and I have conflicted feelings too seeing as a lot of residencies are like that, but it just isn't true in our case. So it may be pointless, but I just couldn't let plainly untrue statements about people who have helped me so much go unquestioned.

 

[a;sldkfj]

I'm a current resident at Sinai and straight up none of this is true. Our PDs are very caring people who do the best for our education, who are extremely receptive to feedback, and who really advocate for us. Long story, but we know the person writing these messages is not a current resident. Been a really weird experience since people seem to want to believe that things are bad or toxic or whatever, and I have conflicted feelings too seeing as a lot of residencies are like that, but it just isn't true in our case. So it may be pointless, but I just couldn't let plainly untrue statements about people who have helped me so much go unquestioned.

It is great to question narratives and propose different viewpoints, although the response by Doughnutty feels like gaslighting to me . I have definitely heard the perspective from the OP before and have a number of classmates and friends in that program. I mean, no department is perfect by any means . There is always going to be drama, favorites and pariahs, and messy politics in the various high-powered psychiatry depts in new york city (this sort of stuff totally happens at Columbia too). But "plainly untrue" and "isn't true" and "straight up none of this is true" feels sus at best. (Lol is there ever a such thing as "truth" in these types of things? I tend to get worried when a single resident tries to speak for an entire residency program body).

My suggestion~ You could say that you personally disagree with the OP and haven't had such an experience. But your post above does feel dogmatic and invalidating, which hinders its credibility.

Also, as said by the great Marsha herself, “Validation is the answer of ‘yes’ to the question ‘can this be true?’ “

 

[Stagg737]

It's weird that on an anonymous forum that people won't even name the specific program or directors/APDs they're talking about. The Sinai system has multiple sites and per their own website multiple PDs depending on the site. As someone above mentioned, how do we even know people are talking about the same program? We can all google use google, so I don't understand why people don't just give an actual name, smh.

 

[a;sldkfj]

It's weird that on an anonymous forum that people won't even name the specific program or directors/APDs they're talking about. The Sinai system has multiple sites and per their own website multiple PDs depending on the site. As someone above mentioned, how do we even know people are talking about the same program? We can all google use google, so I don't understand why people don't just give an actual name, smh.

Lol, if you consult the link posted above--
" So in 2009, for example, when Andrew Goldstein, then a second-year medical student, organized a panel on pharmaceutical companies’ extending their patents in order to increase profitability....and had the temerity to question a last-minute addition to the panel by [the dean]....he received a call while studying at home from the dean himself...[who]... came out blasting. “It really did feel like every other word was ****,” Goldstein remembers now." One Night at Mount Sinai

The dean in question is the former chair of psychiatry at sinai main.

May this give you an idea as to why people may not want to name specific people in certain academic circles....

 

[doughnutty]

It is great to question narratives and propose different viewpoints, although the response by Doughnutty feels like gaslighting to me . I have definitely heard the perspective from the OP before and have a number of classmates and friends in that program. I mean, no department is perfect by any means . There is always going to be drama, favorites and pariahs, and messy politics in the various high-powered psychiatry depts in new york city (this sort of stuff totally happens at Columbia too). But "plainly untrue" and "isn't true" and "straight up none of this is true" feels sus at best. (Lol is there ever a such thing as "truth" in these types of things? I tend to get worried when a single resident tries to speak for an entire residency program body).

My suggestion~ You could say that you personally disagree with the OP and haven't had such an experience. But your post above does feel dogmatic and invalidating, which hinders its credibility.

Also, as said by the great Marsha herself, “Validation is the answer of ‘yes’ to the question ‘can this be true?’ “

You're right, not everyone's experiences are the same as mine currently, we've all been frustrated with our residency and program directors at times, but questioning if anything can be true or false goes a little far. This person is not a resident at my program, by definition they cannot be having the experiences they say they are having.