Multiple MCAT Score Policy School List

[gyngyn]

My gosh, how do you and @Goro feel about all the 27-29 DO students being let loose on the public???

We are making decisions based on the best evidence we have. There are instances in which risks are worth taking. There are others in which is is not.

Where did I say we don't consider 27-29 MCAT's? What does that have to do with re-takes?

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[GrapesofRath]

I'm doing my best to inform them.

Im glad you do. I dont even a number of people in admission realize how potentially "very different" these interpretations can be from ADCOM to ADCOM and their consequences. Very fascinating how what is supposed to be such a basic and standard issue can generate such completely different views.

Out of curiosity does your school place as much weight on "individual or a semester of poor grades" as they do "individual poor MCAT scores"?

If it can be very hard to overcome poor individual MCAT attempts at your school(ie an applicant with a 24, 24 and 36 is probably not too likely to get a II at your school) would you say the same thing about someone who's overall GPA is ok but had a few really bad semesters to start college? Would those really bad grades cause the same level of concern as the two bad MCAT scores and make you have the same concerns about "preparation" "judgment" "focus" etc?

 

[gyngyn]

Would those really bad grades cause the same level of concern as the two bad MCAT scores and make you have the same concerns about "preparation" "judgment" "focus" etc?

We don't expect the same maturity and judgement from a freshman that we do from a junior/senior.

 

[Nietzschelover]

We are making decisions based on the best evidence we have. There are instances in which risks are worth taking. There are others in which is is not.

Where did I say we don't consider 27-29 MCAT's? What does that have to do with re-takes?

See #43 and #44 for your and Goro's responses to "I can't bring myself to make huge judgments about someone when there is a big element of the unknown even for those who believe they are immaculately prepared."

If the 30 to 35 raises such grave questions, yielding no forgiveness in interpretation with God knows what kind of assumptions about judgment in a young person, then how can you (and he) feel comfortable knowing that thousands of 27-29s go through med school (MD and especially DO) to eventually be practicing with the public?

 

[gyngyn]

See #43 and #44 for your and Goro's responses to "I can't bring myself to make huge judgments about someone when there is a big element of the unknown even for those who believe they are immaculately prepared."

If the 30 to 35 raises such grave questions, yielding no forgiveness in interpretation with God knows what kind of assumptions about judgment in a young person, then how can you (and he) feel comfortable knowing that thousands of 27-29s go through med school (MD and especially DO) to eventually be practicing with the public?

I have the luxury of choosing from the very best of applicants.
Even if we don't pick them, they will get in somewhere if they have the good sense to apply to enough schools that might consider them. If they do well enough in the school they get into, we will still consider them for residency. This all has a way of sorting itself out.

 

[GrapesofRath]

We don't expect the same maturity and judgement from a freshman as we do in a junior/senior.

Makes sense. But here is the type of scenario I was really thinking about because with more and more non-trads this probably happen every cycle more than we might expect.

A non-traditional applicant who had good grades takes the MCAT at age 21 twice and gets the 24 and 25. They work for a few years, are productive and retake the MCAT at age 24 and get that 36. Does that change the discussion at all or is it still likely the same fate for someone retaking the MCAT 3X in the course of a year with those socres?

 

[gyngyn]

Makes sense. But here is the type of scenario I was really thinking about because with more and more non-trads this probably happen every cycle more than we might expect.

A non-traditional applicant who had good grades takes the MCAT at age 21 twice and gets the 24 and 25. They work for a few years, are productive and retake the MCAT at age 24 and get that 36. Does that change the discussion at all or is it still likely the same fate for someone retaking the MCAT 3X in the course of a year with those socres?

You know it does!

 

[Nietzschelover]

I have the luxury of choosing from the very best of applicants.
Even if we don't pick them, they will get in somewhere if they have the good sense to apply to enough schools that might consider them. If they do well enough in the school they get into, we will still consider them for residency. This all has a way of sorting itself out.

And all of that I can respect. I don't expect any one school to have to take anyone.

 

[GrapesofRath]

You know it does!

It should! But this question really comes down to will you still look at this applicant as most likely to perform at the level of someone with a 27/28(average of the scores) becuase the AAMC data suggests that or would you consider the 36 to be more likely a representation of their ability? There two parts to this one is the issue of judgment(which it sounds like can be overcome) and then the other is trying to predict how they will perform in medical school and on Step 1.

That's where I guess Im still interested in seeing how you would look at this because if you still follow the AAMC evidence you probably arent going to be interested in someone you think performs like a 28 MCAT scorer. The questions about "will they approach Step 1 like this" also cant just dissapear.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Makes sense. But here is the type of scenario I was really thinking about because with more and more non-trads this probably happen every cycle more than we might expect.

A non-traditional applicant who had good grades takes the MCAT at age 21 twice and gets the 24 and 25. They work for a few years, are productive and retake the MCAT at age 24 and get that 36. Does that change the discussion at all or is it still likely the same fate for someone retaking the MCAT 3X in the course of a year with those socres?

Great example because I think it shows some flaws in what I assume some of the interpretations are.....and whether it's ability or judgment that is the primary concern, which, honestly, seems to flip-flop a lot in these discussions. Someone who can hit the higher score inside of a year (or with a matter of weeks on a single re-take) would seem (in general) to be demonstrating more raw ability than someone who does the non-trad route and hits a higher score several years later. But of course I assume the benefit of the doubt in this example is going to favor the non-trad.

 

[gyngyn]

It should! But this question really comes down to will you still look at this applicant as most likely to perform at the level of someone with a 27/28(average of the scores) becuase the AAMC data suggests that or would you consider the 36 to be more likely a representation of their ability? There two parts to this one is the issue of judgment(which it sounds like can be overcome) and then the other is trying to predict how they will perform in medical school and on Step 1. That's where I guess Im still interested in seeing how you would look at this.

All this discussion of re-takes has taken us away from the more basic question of how applications are reviewed. A case like you describe may very well contain elements that we would now want even if the MCAT hadn't gone up that much.

 

[Goro]

You are simply not paying attention to what gyngyn and I are saying. It's not the score, but the poor choice making that leads to multiple MCAT attempts.

How many times have you seen me write "high stakes, career deciding exam" when someone posts that they didn't prepare for the exam, or felt pressured to take it, or took it when they were sick, or had a life crisis going on?

People like this do not make a single mistake and then magically become perfect students; rather they make bad choices over and over, and it cripples or delays their path to being a doctor.

So I'm going to say this again: it's not the score, it's the multiple attempts and the reasons for them.

Capeesh?

And even if they are fully informed a large percentage are still going to need a re-take. Doing one's best the first time I'm sure is what most think they are in fact doing. By the laws of mathematics and how scores are derived based on percentiles 80% of the pool can't hit the 95th percentile. That doesn't yield a conclusion that there are no great future physicians among the other 95%.

My gosh, how do you and @Goro feel about all the 27-29 DO students being let loose on the public???

 

[GrapesofRath]

All this discussion of re-takes has taken us away from the more basic question of how applications are reviewed. A case like you describe may very well contain elements that we would now want even if the MCAT hadn't gone up that much.

Interesting. That is an interesting response because many top schools(and even ones below that) might say "why bother with an applicant with that flawed past" when we have so many other ones without such flaws. Many evaluators might not even allow an applicant the chance to show they are now worth it.

My takeaway from what you are saying is "how the MCATs predict medical school performance" isnt that relevant if there is something desirable in this type of applicant which is another way of saying "it doesnt really matter that much if they are predicted to perform more like a 29 scorer than a 36 scorer". Or am I mistaken?

 

[gyngyn]

Interesting. That is an interesting response because many top schools(and even ones below that) might say "why bother with an applicant with that flawed past" when we have so many other ones without such flaws. Many evaluators might not even allow an applicant the chance to show they are now worth it.

My takeaway from what you are saying is "how the MCATs predict medical school performance" isnt that relevant if there is something desirable in this type of applicant which is another way of saying "it doesnt really matter that much if they are predicted to perform more like a 29 scorer than a 36 scorer". Or am I mistaken?

We may not have that many matriculants like you describe but someone reads every application to identify the ones that stand out (even with "flaws"). As I have said before, the best applicant we saw last year had a 29 MCAT (and excellent judgement). Would we have wanted him more with a re-take of 35? Absolutely not. Would we have wanted him less with a re-take of 29? Probably.

 

[Nietzschelover]

You are simply not paying attention to what gyngyn and I are saying. It's not the score, but the poor choice making that leads to multiple MCAT attempts.

How many times have you seen me write "high stakes, career deciding exam" when someone posts that they didn't prepare for the exam, or felt pressured to take it, or took it when they were sick, or had a life crisis going on?

People like this do not make a single mistake and then magically become perfect students; rather they make bad choices over and over, and it cripples or delays their path to being a doctor.

So I'm going to say this again: it's not the score, it's the multiple attempts and the reasons for them.

Capeesh?

Whether the REAL issue is ability or judgment seems to be changing by the moment. I thought the rationale for averaging is that allegedly it is the most fair way or most accurate way to measure true ability. Now you're reverting to the judgment prong. And I'm talking about a single re-take, not five. What is in your head when you say "multiple"? And if you are extrapolating that a single re-take of a very young adult foreshadows a career of "making bad choices over and over".....well, I can't say what I think about that.

 

[Goro]

It depends upon the person. We do not penalize someone who go goes from, say a 20 to 31. BUT, I have colleagues who will reject these people outright because they don't want to accept poor choice makers...this has nothing to do with the scores, but their judgement.

We also tend to be leery of people who go from a perfectly fine 28-33 (for my school) and then score higher. This stinks of either an allopath-wannabe" or a perfectionist. If someone wants a higher score so they can get into the state MD school, more power to them. But we want people who want to come to our school.

Whether the REAL issue is ability or judgment seems to be changing by the moment. I thought the rationale for averaging is that allegedly it is the most fair way or most accurate way to measure true ability. Now you're reverting to the judgment prong. And I'm talking about a single re-take, not five. What is in your head when you say "multiple"? And if you are extrapolating that a single re-take of a very young adult foreshadows a career of "making bad choices over and over".....well, I can't say what I think about that.

 

[GrapesofRath]

We may not have that many matriculants like you describe but someone reads every application to identify the ones that stand out (even with "flaws"). As I have said before, the best applicant we saw last year had a 29 MCAT (and excellent judgement). Would we have wanted him more with a re-take of 35? Absolutely not. Would we have wanted him less with a re-take of 29? Probably.

I actually hadnt heard that story before about your favorite applicant, although I cant really say it surprises me. It just highlights the differences in how schools view different applicants.

Some schools will look at an applicant with a 10th percentile caliber MCAT(or slightly higher) for their school like a 29 and say "that's fine, you can get in with that and retaking wont help, now show us what else you bring". Others where the 29 is at the 10th percentile will see that score as rather low and even if the other parts of their app are very strong that will be a focal point of their main evaluation. But a retake with a 5 point improvement would change their opinion of such a candidate and their "desirability" whereas it wouldnt for the first type of school I mentioned.

Really one of the most difficult things going through MSAR and looking at schools is trying to figure out which schools go out of their way to have their median as high as they can and 10th percentile/90th percentile as high as they can and for which it is simply by "default".

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Great example because I think it shows some flaws in what I assume some of the interpretations are.....and whether it's ability or judgment that is the primary concern, which, honestly, seems to flip-flop a lot in these discussions. Someone who can hit the higher score inside of a year (or with a matter of weeks on a single re-take) would seem (in general) to be demonstrating more raw ability than someone who does the non-trad route and hits a higher score several years later. But of course I assume the benefit of the doubt in this example is going to favor the non-trad.

I think an issue which has yet to be addressed is whether retakers have any sort of advantage over first time takers. If a person goes from a 29 to a 36, would he have greater "aptitude" than a first time taker who gets a 33? Whose to say that the person who got a 33 won't get a 39 if he chooses to retake the test?

The AAMC seems to think there is an advantage, which is why they recommend averaging scores. The following report says that retakers have an average change in score of +10 percentile. Yes, most retakers have lower scores to begin with, but even for those in the 33-35 range, 56% of retakers show improvement while only 28% get lower scores. It is unclear whether this is due to jncreased studying, chance or familiarity with the test, but given that 34% of new MCAT takers also had scores from the old exam, there is still a large grey area when making these comparisons.

https://www.aamc.org/download/454206/data/mcatatglance2015.pdf

 

[Nietzschelover]

We may not have that many matriculants like you describe but someone reads every application to identify the ones that stand out (even with "flaws"). As I have said before, the best applicant we saw last year had a 29 MCAT (and excellent judgement). Would we have wanted him more with a re-take of 35? Absolutely not. Would we have wanted him less with a re-take of 29? Probably.

In this case you're talking about someone where the MCAT is essentially irrelevant....and so probably irrelevant to this little debate. Also, you might not have wanted him more with the 35, but not less, and you certainly would have understood why he did a re-take.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Question: Why do so many medical schools consider the most recent score rather than the highest score? It is very much possible that, due to unforeseen circumstances (such as sickness), an applicant's score may have been brought down the second time. If they consider all scores then that's another story. But if they are going to consider just one, then why not the highest? Seems a rather cruel way to weigh down an applicant

 

[GrapesofRath]

In this case you're talking about someone where the MCAT is essentially irrelevant....and so probably irrelevant to this little debate. Also, you might not have wanted him more with the 35, but not less, and you certainly would have understood why he did a re-take.

I think the real problem is what I described above; it's very diffiicult from the outside to know if a school's 35 median MCAT is due to them actively wanting scores to be that high or just a by product of the applicant pool being so good. The difference is at the former school the 30 is at a major disadvantage. At the latter, if the 30's application is very impressive outside of that 30, they can still be competitive.

I think we've hammered home all the points about how multiple MCATs are viewed be it poor prepration, anxiety, luck on the second test, not taking the test seriously, being worried if theyll do this on Step 1 etc. You either agree with those points or you dont(and you know where you stand on that issue). I mostly buy into the reasons for having concern about multiple MCATs although I think the AAMC data isnt as clear cut about it as some make it out to be. I personally wouldnt average multiple scores but I would put real weight in the first attempt. But that discussion is what it is, it's kind of hit its limit.

The only real issue I have with how things are is how some schools will look at retaking a 31 or 32 as "poor judgment" because at their school you can be competitive with that score even if their median is much higher. That's fine but there are many other schools that 31/32 is a flaw when the median is a 35+ and your odds will be better with a retake. Likewise, there are schools with 31-32 medians where a retake to 35+ will help alot. An applicants best decision to make is to improve their odds to the most amount of schools possible, so if the majority of their schools they apply to a big improvement helped their app retaking was "good judgment" and that is something you would hope schools where retaking that score wont help would recognize(some may, others may not).

 

[gyngyn]

In this case you're talking about someone where the MCAT is essentially irrelevant....and so probably irrelevant to this little debate. Also, you might not have wanted him more with the 35, but not less, and you certainly would have understood why he did a re-take.

My point is that re-takes are often unnecessary and unhelpful and can hurt (even with a minor improvement in score). The perception that they are a "free shot" is far from accurate.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I think the real problem is what I described above; it's very diffiicult from the outside to know if a school's 35 median MCAT is due to them actively wanting scores to be that high or just a by product of the applicant pool being so good. The difference is at the former school the 30 is at a major disadvantage. At the latter, if the 30's application is very impressive outside of that 30, they can still be competitive.

I think we've hammered home all the points about how multiple MCATs are viewed be it poor prepration, anxiety, luck on the second test, not taking the test seriously, being worried if theyll do this on Step 1 etc. You either agree with those points or you dont(and you know where you stand on that issue). I mostly buy into the reasons for having concern about multiple MCATs although I think the AAMC data isnt as clear cut about it as some make it out to be. I personally wouldnt average multiple scores but I would put real weight in the first attempt. But that discussion is what it is, it's kind of hit its limit.

The only real issue I have with how things are is how some schools will look at retaking a 31 or 32 as "poor judgment" because at their school you can be competitive with that score even if their median is much higher. That's fine but there are many other schools that 31/32 is a flaw when the median is a 35+ and your odds will be better with a retake. Likewise, there are schools with 31-32 medians where a retake to 35+ will help alot. An applicants best decision to make is to improve their odds to the most amount of schools possible, so if the majority of their schools they apply to a big improvement helped their app retaking was "good judgment" and that is something you would hope schools where retaking that score wont help would recognize(some may, others may not).

Agreed. What is perhaps most intriguing about this discussion which always ends up in roughly the same place and where generosity in responses back and forth is hard to find is why the topic is so compelling. Maybe it has something to do with that 40-50% number of total applicants who re-take, so the stakes on how a re-take is interpreted are sky-high. And among that huge group of applicants with presumed poor judgment or poor ability or both, a big chunk of that group will go on to become physicians. May God help us all.

 

[justadream]

Question: Why do so many medical schools consider the most recent score rather than the highest score? It is very much possible that, due to unforeseen circumstances (such as sickness), an applicant's score may have been brought down the second time. If they consider all scores then that's another story. But if they are going to consider just one, then why not the highest? Seems a rather cruel way to weigh down an applicant

I'm guessing because they think the most recent score is most in line with your abilities at that given time. The reason for the MCAT is to gauge your ability/readiness. So think of the MCAT as like an election poll. The more recent results (or polls) are more likely to reflect reality at the current time.

Also if you only took the highest, then you would incentivize the following behavior:

Take 1: 39
Take 2: 39
Take 3: 39
Tale 4: 40
Take 5: 41
Take 6: 38

(41 is the highest and only score considered)

When the applicant really should have just settled with his/her first score.

Also, if you are sick and think that will significantly (adversely) affect your performance, you should always seriously consider voiding. Yes, it would suck if you absolutely could not void (e.g., due to this being the last date for applying this cycle) but that's what makes life suck sometimes. For example, if you are invited for a job interview, you basically get one shot to not screw it up. The fact that you are allowed to void the MCAT (and try again later) makes this part of the application process arguably more lenient than, say, a job interview.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

lets say an applicant took the mcat 3 times and score 490,500,508, would you consider that unnecessary?? poor choice maker?? not ready for med school? if a student cant give any illness, death, or watever argument, then what is a good reason a student should retake?

My point is that re-takes are often unnecessary and unhelpful and can hurt (even with a minor improvement in score). The perception that they are a "free shot" is far from accurate.

 

[gyngyn]

lets say an applicant took the mcat 3 times and score 490,500,508, would you consider that unnecessary?? poor choice maker?? not ready for med school? if a student cant give any illness, death, or watever argument, then what is a good reason a student should retake?

A single strong score is always best.
With a first score incompatible with success, it is very important not to re-take until one is very confident of a score that will result in acceptance.
With two weak scores, the only alternative is another re-take. It is even more important that this score exceed what is needed to get interviews.

Never take a high stakes exam while sick, bereaved or reduced in capacity.

 

[Lawpy]

lets say an applicant took the mcat 3 times and score 490,500,508, would you consider that unnecessary?? poor choice maker?? not ready for med school? if a student cant give any illness, death, or watever argument, then what is a good reason a student should retake?

They should have voided the first two exams. It is their mistake they decided to score the exams.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

A single strong score is always best.
With a first score incompatible with success, it is very important not to re-take until one is very confident of a score that will result in acceptance.
With two weak scores, the only alternative is another re-take. It is even more important that this score exceed what is needed to get interviews.
Never take a high stakes exam while sick, bereaved or reduced in capacity.

They should have voided the first two exams. It is their mistake they decided to score the exams.

I do understand your points. Could have, should have, would have dont help. what do you consider a valid argument for retakes then? if every arguments you mentioned is not good enough and show poor decision maker, etc.

 

[gyngyn]

I do understand your points. Could have, should have, would have dont help. what do you consider a valid argument for retakes then? if every arguments you mentioned is not good enough and show poor decision maker, etc.

I can't say I've ever seen an explanation that satisfied.
I can say that some schools get good applicants who have MCAT mis-steps.

 

[Lawpy]

I do understand your points. Could have, should have, would have dont help. what do you consider a valid argument for retakes then? if every arguments you mentioned is not good enough and show poor decision maker, etc.

I can't say I've ever seen an explanation that satisfied.
I can say that some schools get good applicants who have MCAT mis-steps.

It's another example of why medical school admissions is a seller's market. The schools have the opportunity to choose whatever applicants they think best fits their mission. It's also why it's commonly recommended to take the MCAT only once and do it well. Multiple MCAT scores open room for interpretation and there's always the question as to why the applicant didn't void the poor attempts in the first place. And of course we have the flip side of someone retaking a balanced 33 to get a 39+.

I wouldn't draw attention to multiple MCAT scores. Adcoms can see all scores anyways. Only answer when asked and take responsibility for the past mistakes.