Multiple MCAT - top 15 schools

[metview]

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I took the MCAT twice and got a 32 the first time and 36 the second time. Is still possible to gain admission to a top 15 research schools whose medians are around 36 or will the first 32 keep me out of the top schools? Should I just shoot for mid tiers?

thanks

 

[BABSstudent]

I took the MCAT twice and got a 32 the first time and 36 the second time. Is still possible to gain admission to a top 15 research schools whose medians are around 36 or will the first 32 keep me out of the top schools? Should I just shoot for mid tiers?

thanks

I wouldn't worry too much. I think you will be fine. Just remember to add safety schools and apply early because nothing is a guarantee when applying to medical school.

 

[Dbate]

I took the MCAT twice and got a 32 the first time and 36 the second time. Is still possible to gain admission to a top 15 research schools whose medians are around 36 or will the first 32 keep me out of the top schools? Should I just shoot for mid tiers?

thanks

You could email the schools to ask. I had a similar issue (30 -->35), so I emailed the schools in Texas and almost all of them responded the very next day saying they look at the higher school.

I think when they report their MCAT averages to AMCAS, they only have to give them the higher score, so many schools are more than happy to use the second MCAT.

 

[nysegop]

"Safety school" is not the best term to use when it comes to medical schools.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

"Safety school" is not the best term to use when it comes to medical schools.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

OP, I would definitely contact the schools - some may average, some may look at them separately, some may only look at the most recent, and so forth.

I would also prepare an explanation of why you retook, as a 32 is considered an acceptable score in most cases. Remember that this is SDN, where the scores tend to be of a higher caliber.

 

[metview]

Irrelevant to the discussion.

OP, I would definitely contact the schools - some may average, some may look at them separately, some may only look at the most recent, and so forth.

I would also prepare an explanation of why you retook, as a 32 is considered an acceptable score in most cases. Remember that this is SDN, where the scores tend to be of a higher caliber.

I retook it because I got an 8 on Verbal, which was not close to my practice averages. The second time, I got a 11 on Verbal.

 

[235009]

Just apply to the "top 15" schools you'd like to attend but make sure to also apply to your state schools and low-to-mid tier private schools. If you make a relatively top-heavy list you should apply to around 30 schools.

Rarely will you find a school that will discourage you from applying since it's big business so contacting them makes no difference.

 

[TopTomato]

I retook it because I got an 8 on Verbal, which was not close to my practice averages. The second time, I got a 11 on Verbal.

Just curious, is English your second language?

 

[gyngyn]

You could email the schools to ask. I had a similar issue (30 -->35), so I emailed the schools in Texas and almost all of them responded the very next day saying they look at the higher school.

I think when they report their MCAT averages to AMCAS, they only have to give them the higher score, so many schools are more than happy to use the second MCAT.

They look at all of the scores and make a decision regarding interview based on the story they tell. They do report the highest score if they accept you!

 

[metview]

Just curious, is English your second language?

No, it is not. I think I just got nervous during the first verbal test; I was sweating like crazy and was feeling hot. lol.

Also, I contacted a few schools and all of them said that they do not average MCATs, they look at all scores, and that the highest score carries the most weight. One school said that they only consider the highest score.

 

[jr93]

The discussion has gone on in many threads and there is one going now near the top of the list. There really is no such thing as a "top 15" school. Read mission statements, think about where you want to live and apply to the schools that are best for you. One of the best schools I ever interviewed at reported an average MCAT under 30 to the MSAR and the school I disliked the most reports a fairly high MCAT score average although I liked the city. Would've never gone though unless it was the only acceptance.

 

[Dingo Mango]

nah. Your MCAT history is very near the same as mine and I got "top-ranked" school interviews and accepted at my #1. 🙂 Just be prepared for the questions about your MCAT because they often ask. Of course it depends on the other parts of your app, I'm just saying it probably won't hold you back anywhere, congrats on the 36.

edit: mine was actually a few point under yours on the first try. (crappy verbal)

 

[Like]

Here's something nice:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=7164401#post7164401

 

[235009]

The discussion has gone on in many threads and there is one going now near the top of the list. There really is no such thing as a "top 15" school. Read mission statements, think about where you want to live and apply to the schools that are best for you. One of the best schools I ever interviewed at reported an average MCAT under 30 to the MSAR and the school I disliked the most reports a fairly high MCAT score average although I liked the city. Would've never gone though unless it was the only acceptance.

nope. this is absolutely incorrect. go to the most reputable school you can, within reason (ex: probably a good idea to choose full ride at NYU vs. paying full price at hopkins from another thread). "fit" and "feel" are complete BS. don't base your career on a show that the administration puts on (or fails to put on) for a few hours. base your decision on something that'll actually matter when it comes time to applying for residency.

 

[Dbate]

nope. this is absolutely incorrect. go to the most reputable school you can, within reason (ex: probably a good idea to choose full ride at NYU vs. paying full price at hopkins from another thread). "fit" and "feel" are complete BS. don't base your career on a show that the administration puts on (or fails to put on) for a few hours. base your decision on something that'll actually matter when it comes time to applying for residency.

I would imagine that this would somewhat vary from person to person.

For me, location is important. So I would want to attend a school in a location that I would like to live in after med school. Because I hear attending a med school boosts your chances for matching into residency there.


As a med student, can you comment on whether the above is true?

 

[235009]

I would imagine that this would somewhat vary from person to person.

For me, location is important. So I would want to attend a school in a location that I would like to live in after med school. Because I hear attending a med school boosts your chances for matching into residency there.


As a med student, can you comment on whether the above is true?

I used to think that the regional bias came more from the programs but over time, with more information, I'm beginning to think that the students are the ones with a much greater bias.

For some specialties though it is true that going to the school will give you a better chance at matching at that particular school's program. For that reason it would be advantageous to go to school in the location where you'd like to stay for residency. For example NYU filled half their IM categorical spots with NYU students. That being said if you're coming from a very reputable school it doesn't matter where that school is located...you won't have a hard time breaking into another region for residency. Alternatively you can demonstrate your interest in a region or program by doing away rotations.

 

[Dbate]

I used to think that the regional bias came more from the programs but over time, with more information, I'm beginning to think that the students are the ones with a much greater bias.

For some specialties though it is true that going to the school will give you a better chance at matching at that particular school's program. For that reason it would be advantageous to go to school in the location where you'd like to stay for residency. For example NYU filled half their IM categorical spots with NYU students. That being said if you're coming from a very reputable school it doesn't matter where that school is located...you won't have a hard time breaking into another region for residency. Alternatively you can demonstrate your interest in a region or program by doing away rotations.

Thanks for the response!

Do you think it would be worth it to attend a school like USC (80k/year) over Texas A&M (40K/year) for this greater chance?

I would be taking out loans to cover the full cost of attendance.

I ask because I am a Texas resident, but I would like to possibly live in Southern California for my future career, so I would want to do a residency there.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

"Safety school" is not the best term to use when it comes to medical schools.

Yo thanks for your valuable advice high schooler.

 

[235009]

Thanks for the response!

Do you think it would be worth it to attend a school like USC (80k/year) over Texas A&M (40K/year) for this greater chance?

I would be taking out loans to cover the full cost of attendance.

I ask because I am a Texas resident, but I would like to possibly live in Southern California for my future career, so I would want to do a residency there.

situations like this are always tough. the difference in reputation between USC and texas A&M is quite big it seems. to be honest i'm not familiar with cali or texas schools but there is a huge gap between them in the US news rankings. I also haven't looked at either of their match lists, though i'm sure they'll be hard to interpret because of the enormous regional bias because students tend to want to stay in cali or texas forever.

bottom line is i dont know. most SDNers will tell you to go to the cheaper school but it's really not that straight forward because you would be getting a reputation and geographic boost by going to USC. where you go to med school matters significantly come time for residency apps

 

[Dbate]

situations like this are always tough. the difference in reputation between USC and texas A&M is quite big it seems. to be honest i'm not familiar with cali or texas schools but there is a huge gap between them in the US news rankings. I also haven't looked at either of their match lists, though i'm sure they'll be hard to interpret because of the enormous regional bias because students tend to want to stay in cali or texas forever.

bottom line is i dont know. most SDNers will tell you to go to the cheaper school but it's really not that straight forward because you would be getting a reputation and geographic boost by going to USC. where you go to med school matters significantly come time for residency apps

Thanks for the input.

I've already inspected the match lists and the regional bias thing was spot on. Many of the Texas students stayed in Texas and many of the California students stayed in California.

It may ultimately come down to costs. The thought of taking out 320K in loans is a bit shocking, especially with Texas schools so cheap. And I might still have a chance to match into a program in Cali come senior year.

Would the situation be different if it were UT Southwestern or Baylor v. USC?

(note: I haven't been accepted to any schools, but my stats are more inline with Texas A&M than with Southwestern or Baylor)

 

[235009]

Would the situation be different if it were UT Southwestern or Baylor v. USC?

(note: I haven't been accepted to any schools, but my stats are more inline with Texas A&M than with Southwestern or Baylor)

Yes, the situation would be different, those schools are actually ranked higher than USC so you'll likely get a reputation boost nationally in addition to the cheap tuition. Turns into a much easier and straight forward decision.

It's nice to see someone on SDN trying to be humble and realistic but as a URM with a 35 MCAT from a top 5 or 10 school i doubt your choices are going to come down to something like USC and A&M. i hope you are applying to all cali schools (if you truly want to break in there) and broadly to other top and mid tier schools nationally.

 

[Dbate]

Yes, the situation would be different, those schools are actually ranked higher than USC so you'll likely get a reputation boost nationally in addition to the cheap tuition. Turns into a much easier and straight forward decision.

It's nice to see someone on SDN trying to be humble and realistic but as a URM with a 35 MCAT from a top 5 or 10 school i doubt your choices are going to come down to something like USC and A&M. i hope you are applying to all cali schools (if you truly want to break in there) and broadly to other top and mid tier schools nationally.

Thanks for all of the advice! It is really helpful to hear from people more advanced in the process.

In terms of choices, I am just trying to be realistic. The MCAT isn't everything and GPA matters a lot (4 years vs. a couple of hours).

People on here make a big deal about URMs, but the truth is we're just like everyone else.

I'm really nervous about a process that is hard by any means, so I am just being realistic based on my numbers.

 

[Dbate]

Yes, the situation would be different, those schools are actually ranked higher than USC so you'll likely get a reputation boost nationally in addition to the cheap tuition. Turns into a much easier and straight forward decision.

It's nice to see someone on SDN trying to be humble and realistic but as a URM with a 35 MCAT from a top 5 or 10 school i doubt your choices are going to come down to something like USC and A&M. i hope you are applying to all cali schools (if you truly want to break in there) and broadly to other top and mid tier schools nationally.

I'm applying to quite a few schools in Cali: UCSF, UCLA, Stanford (just for kicks), and USC. And quite a few other schools plus all the MD schools in Texas. My main objective is just to get in somewhere, so hopefully applying broadly will work out.


Also, sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread! My apologies.

 

[jr93]

nope. this is absolutely incorrect. go to the most reputable school you can, within reason (ex: probably a good idea to choose full ride at NYU vs. paying full price at hopkins from another thread). "fit" and "feel" are complete BS. don't base your career on a show that the administration puts on (or fails to put on) for a few hours. base your decision on something that'll actually matter when it comes time to applying for residency.

It has been discussed in other threads but many people think very little of rankings anymore. Numerous former presidents have admitted to massaging data that is sent out, numerous schools have withdrawn from being ranked at all, and numerous "top schools" have been caught grade fixing so credibility is low. Do you really think the school reputation is going to count for that much when it comes to matching when there is regional bias and Step 1 scores matter so much. What you become is determined mostly by you, your Step 1 score, and where you want to be. The school you went to won't matter much the second you step off campus. This is true in virtually every field and degree level except law school and a couple other very specific fields.

 

[235009]

It has been discussed in other threads but many people think very little of rankings anymore. Numerous former presidents have admitted to massaging data that is sent out, numerous schools have withdrawn from being ranked at all, and numerous "top schools" have been caught grade fixing so credibility is low. Do you really think the school reputation is going to count for that much when it comes to matching when there is regional bias and Step 1 scores matter so much. What you become is determined mostly by you, your Step 1 score, and where you want to be. The school you went to won't matter much the second you step off campus. This is true in virtually every field and degree level except law school and a couple other very specific fields.

the "many people" you refer to are mostly pre-meds on SDN

i'm telling you from experience and from reading match lists with the perspective of having gone through the process that it very obviously matters for residency matching. you can look at posts from several other fourth years and residents on SDN that who agree. Also this is coming from someone who did not go to a "top" school so i'm not just trying to toot my own horn.

 

[jr93]

the "many people" you refer to are mostly pre-meds on SDN

i'm telling you from experience and from reading match lists with the perspective of having gone through the process that it very obviously matters for residency matching. you can look at posts from several other fourth years and residents on SDN that who agree. Also this is coming from someone who did not go to a "top" school so i'm not just trying to toot my own horn.

Actually, the "many people" comes from the number of articles that have been written on it recently along with all of the schools that are withdrawing themselves from the rankings because it is progressively being seen as a scam. I'm not some 18 year old pre-med. I've worked in manufacturing for 7 years and you still hear people that claim that you have some special advantage if you have an engineering degree from MIT or CalTech. It's just not true. Your starting salary and earnings potential will be the same or similar if you went to an ABET accreditted school from somewhere in the middle of nowhere. A school can only claim that they select the best students which then do better because of the student, not the school. Everyone has to pass boards, take nationwide tests, etc...Of all the schools I interviewed at, the one with the lowest average MCAT scores and probably considered to be not very prestigious had the highest pass rate on Step 1 over the last 5 years.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

the "many people" you refer to are mostly pre-meds on SDN

i'm telling you from experience and from reading match lists with the perspective of having gone through the process that it very obviously matters for residency matching. you can look at posts from several other fourth years and residents on SDN that who agree. Also this is coming from someone who did not go to a "top" school so i'm not just trying to toot my own horn.

I think there is a fight a' brewin' here that I'm not trying to get in on, but I just gotta say +1 to this. It all comes down, once again, to aggregate vs individual odds. OF COURSE there is always that top 1 or 2 guys from low-mid tier programs that match at MGH for gen surg or Hopkins cat IM. Hell, there's always the SGU dude who matched at Cornell neurosurg that gets waived around every conversation about this topic. If you want to maximize your odds of matching at the strongest possible residency program, go to the strongest possible medical school. Yes, rankings/ratings matter. People say to ignore them on here all the time; the confirmation bias just oozes off those posts.

 

[235009]

Actually, the "many people" comes from the number of articles that have been written on it recently along with all of the schools that are withdrawing themselves from the rankings because it is progressively being seen as a scam. I'm not some 18 year old pre-med. I've worked in manufacturing for 7 years and you still hear people that claim that you have some special advantage if you have an engineering degree from MIT or CalTech. It's just not true. Your starting salary and earnings potential will be the same or similar if you went to an ABET accreditted school from somewhere in the middle of nowhere. A school can only claim that they select the best students which then do better because of the student, not the school. Everyone has to pass boards, take nationwide tests, etc...Of all the schools I interviewed at, the one with the lowest average MCAT scores and probably considered to be not very prestigious had the highest pass rate on Step 1 over the last 5 years.

link to articles please? ....unless they're talking about undergrad rankings in which case it's completely irrelevant to this discussion

i'm not sure what you're trying to argue. are you saying that rankings aren't the best tool to determine reputation? well that might be true but it's all we have and a decent enough approximation. if you're arguing that school reputation doesn't matter with regards to residency matching then you're wrong. look at the match lists of the top schools....there's no way everyone got a 250+ on step 1 and was top of the class or AOA yet almost everyone matches at top programs in their chosen field, whereas, coming from a less reputable school you would have to have stats like those mentioned earlier just to get an interview.


Finally, as a side note, step 1 pass rate means absolutely nothing. the differences are typically like 95% vs 97% or something similarly insignificant. also passing step 1 isn't that big of a deal...if you "pass" with a 190 you're still screwed... the pass rate tells you nothing.

 

[Dbate]

link to articles please? ....unless they're talking about undergrad rankings in which case it's completely irrelevant to this discussion

i'm not sure what you're trying to argue. are you saying that rankings aren't the best tool to determine reputation? well that might be true but it's all we have and a decent enough approximation. if you're arguing that school reputation doesn't matter with regards to residency matching then you're wrong. look at the match lists of the top schools....there's no way everyone got a 250+ on step 1 and was top of the class or AOA yet almost everyone matches at top programs in their chosen field, whereas, coming from a less reputable school you would have to have stats like those mentioned earlier just to get an interview.


Finally, as a side note, step 1 pass rate means absolutely nothing. the differences are typically like 95% vs 97% or something similarly insignificant. also passing step 1 isn't that big of a deal...if you "pass" with a 190 you're still screwed... the pass rate tells you nothing.

What is the scoring system for Step 1 and what is considered a "good" score?

Most schools don't advertise this it seems.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

What is the scoring system for Step 1 and what is considered a "good" score?

Most schools don't advertise this it seems.

You can easily find that info either in allo forums or just google NRMP charting the match. Shows mean scores and percentile for matched students in the ACGME residencies.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

If your looking for how individual med schools perform, they do not advertise that info. However, you can assume scores from looking at their match lists. Match lists are where the gold is.

 

[235009]

What is the scoring system for Step 1 and what is considered a "good" score?

Most schools don't advertise this it seems.

passing step 1 score is 188, mean step 1 score for all US test takers is 225. as someone mentioned you can look at charting outcomes to get an idea of averages for each specialty but keep in mind that some specialties (ex: peds, IM, radiology) are extremely competitive at the top and particularly noncompetitive at the bottom

you can assume scores from looking at their match lists. Match lists are where the gold is.

this is not true, particularly since many pre-meds and pre-clinical student have no clue how to interpret a match list. for example many think that anyone who matched radiology or anesthesia is automatically a baller when in fact there are a whole bunch of non-competitive radiology spots and anesthesia is, for the most part, fairly noncompetitive.

 

[Dbate]

passing step 1 score is 188, mean step 1 score for all US test takers is 225. as someone mentioned you can look at charting outcomes to get an idea of averages for each specialty but keep in mind that some specialties (ex: peds, IM, radiology) are extremely competitive at the top and particularly noncompetitive at the bottom

Thanks to both of you for explaining this!

this is not true, particularly since many pre-meds and pre-clinical student have no clue how to interpret a match list. for example many think that anyone who matched radiology or anesthesia is automatically a baller when in fact there are a whole bunch of non-competitive radiology spots and anesthesia is, for the most part, fairly noncompetitive.

Yeah, I tried looking over match lists for schools (because people mentioned it is important) and had no clue what to look for other than general locations (state wise) where people end up.

 

[jr93]

link to articles please? ....unless they're talking about undergrad rankings in which case it's completely irrelevant to this discussion

i'm not sure what you're trying to argue. are you saying that rankings aren't the best tool to determine reputation? well that might be true but it's all we have and a decent enough approximation. if you're arguing that school reputation doesn't matter with regards to residency matching then you're wrong. look at the match lists of the top schools....there's no way everyone got a 250+ on step 1 and was top of the class or AOA yet almost everyone matches at top programs in their chosen field, whereas, coming from a less reputable school you would have to have stats like those mentioned earlier just to get an interview.


Finally, as a side note, step 1 pass rate means absolutely nothing. the differences are typically like 95% vs 97% or something similarly insignificant. also passing step 1 isn't that big of a deal...if you "pass" with a 190 you're still screwed... the pass rate tells you nothing.

You seem to be a prestige obsessor or a possible elitist so I won't argue long. One example though is a comparison between schools like Emory and Morehouse. Emory has already been caught cheating when it comes to third part ranking so keep that in mind. Emory is considered a "prestigious school" and Morehouse isn't as much. From everything I've seen, they have comparable progression thru M1 and M2 and M3 and M4 are done side by side at the same hospitals. Grady is one of the top trauma hospitals in the country I might add. Do you really think the doctors coming out of those schools are drastically different because one came from Emory? You can love your prestige all you want and it may fly on SDN because the general crowd here but out in the world it won't mean much. Once you float your prestige around a bunch of nurses who don't care and incredibly smart non-physicians with Master's degrees, etc. you're just going to be the arrogant doctor who brags about their past.

 

[235009]

You seem to be a prestige obsessor or a possible elitist so I won't argue long. One example though is a comparison between schools like Emory and Morehouse. Emory has already been caught cheating when it comes to third part ranking so keep that in mind. Emory is considered a "prestigious school" and Morehouse isn't as much. From everything I've seen, they have comparable progression thru M1 and M2 and M3 and M4 are done side by side at the same hospitals. Grady is one of the top trauma hospitals in the country I might add. Do you really think the doctors coming out of those schools are drastically different because one came from Emory? You can love your prestige all you want and it may fly on SDN because the general crowd here but out in the world it won't mean much. Once you float your prestige around a bunch of nurses who don't care and incredibly smart non-physicians with Master's degrees, etc. you're just going to be the arrogant doctor who brags about their past.

Your ego is SO fragile ...wow

Sorry you had to spend so much time writing this. I go to a school that's outside the top 50 but instead of being ashamed and defensive about it like you so clearly are I'm secure and proud while continuing to give accurate and realistic advice backed by evidence and experience so that others can maximize their potential like I did. I'm sorry if that advice hurts your feelings.

Still waiting for the links to those many recent articles btw.

 

[jr93]

Plenty discussed here.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=997666
I'm not fragile. I've just been around a while and I know that what I become as a doctor is determined by me, not which school I go to. People say the same thing about prestigious engineering schools and it's garbage. It just makes people that go to those "top" schools feel better for the money they're shelling out. Emory, for example, who has already been caught cheating has ridiculous undergrad costs. I met someone at an interview who had 170k in undergrad debt from there. For what? Nothing more than anyone else at the interview. I was accepted to 3 schools and only tried for 5 and am going to my local school because it's best for me and my family so if that's fragile then I guess maybe I'm fragile. My point is that people shouldn't think that there are 15 schools in this country that are going to be so far above every other school. Like I've said, I've been all over this country and no one school has ever stood out as exceptional over all others. 100 people could make a "top 15" list and they should all be different anyway so what good is the list. They're about as valid as preseason football rankings.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Plenty discussed here.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=997666
I'm not fragile. I've just been around a while and I know that what I become as a doctor is determined by me, not which school I go to. People say the same thing about prestigious engineering schools and it's garbage. It just makes people that go to those "top" schools feel better for the money they're shelling out. Emory, for example, who has already been caught cheating has ridiculous undergrad costs. I met someone at an interview who had 170k in undergrad debt from there. For what? Nothing more than anyone else at the interview. I was accepted to 3 schools and only tried for 5 and am going to my local school because it's best for me and my family so if that's fragile then I guess maybe I'm fragile. My point is that people shouldn't think that there are 15 schools in this country that are going to be so far above every other school. Like I've said, I've been all over this country and no one school has ever stood out as exceptional over all others. 100 people could make a "top 15" list and they should all be different anyway so what good is the list. They're about as valid as preseason football rankings.

lol what...you've gotta be joking.

That's a poll made by some pre-med that degenerated (and I mean that in a great way) into posting sorority girl pictures and a peen shot of Jon Hamm. Yeah pretty deep and thoughtful discussion going on.

 

[235009]

so first you said this:

Actually, the "many people" comes from the number of articles that have been written on it recently along with all of the schools that are withdrawing themselves from the rankings because it is progressively being seen as a scam.

to which i said:

the "many people" you refer to are mostly pre-meds on SDN

and then when i asked you for links to these articles you give me this:

Plenty discussed here.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=997666

a link to an sdn poll created by a premed.

....i think we're done here.

i hope you get over your rabid hatred of Emory, not sure what they did to you exactly but it sounds like they besmirched you pretty badly.

My point is that people shouldn't think that there are 15 schools in this country that are going to be so far above every other school. Like I've said, I've been all over this country and no one school has ever stood out as exceptional over all others. 100 people could make a "top 15" list and they should all be different anyway so what good is the list. They're about as valid as preseason football rankings.

also please don't try to twist my words. i never said that there are only 15 schools worth a damn and the rest are garbage. i wouldn't insult my own school like that. what i'm saying is that school reputation matters significantly when it comes to residency apps therefore you should try to maximize that by strongly considering going to the most reputable school you can get into.

 

[jr93]

I referred you to the discussion, not the poll. I don't care about the poll. Everyone points out in the discussion that the poll is pointless if you read further than the first post. Everyone should be aware of Harvard grade fixing if you watch the news at all. I referenced Emory because I'm familiar with Atlanta and there is a link in that thread regarding Emory. I didn't even apply to Emory and have nothing against them. They've just admitted to cheating data and they are a "prestigious" school so it's low hanging fruit. Why don't you post data showing that all these schools produce doctors that are so much better than other doctors? For me, match lists don't do that because there are plenty of great residencies all over the country. I want evidence that the doctors are superior in practice.

 

[mcloaf]

I referred you to the discussion, not the poll. I don't care about the poll. Everyone points out in the discussion that the poll is pointless if you read further than the first post. Everyone should be aware of Harvard grade fixing if you watch the news at all. I referenced Emory because I'm familiar with Atlanta and there is a link in that thread regarding Emory. I didn't even apply to Emory and have nothing against them. They've just admitted to cheating data and they are a "prestigious" school so it's low hanging fruit. Why don't you post data showing that all these schools produce doctors that are so much better than other doctors? For me, match lists don't do that because there are plenty of great residencies all over the country. I want evidence that the doctors are superior in practice.

Now you're just willfully misinterpreting what people say. He said reputation matters in matching to competitive residency spots. Nobody asserted that graduates of non top schools are substandard physicians.

 

[235009]

Why don't you post data showing that all these schools produce doctors that are so much better than other doctors? For me, match lists don't do that because there are plenty of great residencies all over the country. I want evidence that the doctors are superior in practice.

Now you're just willfully misinterpreting what people say. He said reputation matters in matching to competitive residency spots. Nobody asserted that graduates of non top schools are substandard physicians.

thank you.

not to mention that i've already said i dont go to a top school so if i was actually arguing that non-top-school graduates make crappy physicians i'd be insulting myself

 

[jr93]

I'd also like to add....let's say a school has a few really good cardiologists that earns them some "prestige" and a decent rank on some list and they are just average or above average in most other fields. You want to be in ortho and this school sounds great and is ranked so you go there but their ortho experience and simulators aren't that great. Not to mention, the good cardiologists got upset and took a job at another teaching hospital. For one, the school will probably not just fall off of the list because they never change that sharply. Also, it doesn't matter because you already began your first year because you were excited to go to this "top" school. A school may be completely different during MS4 than it was during MS1. We can argue all day about this if you're dead set that the school matters but I'll still always say that people should go where it is best for them. Screw the prestige. Also, all you've done is criticized my opinion without any data. At least address my opinion that MS3 and MS4 are essentially the same at Morehouse and Emory. Again, this is just an example...there are numerous other schools that are close to each other and share hospitals yet have different amounts of "prestige" so replace Emory with those schools if you think I have something against Emory.

 

[jr93]

Now you're just willfully misinterpreting what people say. He said reputation matters in matching to competitive residency spots. Nobody asserted that graduates of non top schools are substandard physicians.

You're essentially saying that residency prestige is also extremely important as well which I'd also disagree with. It's all on the person is my entire point. The discussion started with a question about getting in as an MS1 to med schools and it was taken to the residency discussion so you're getting way off base. As an MS3 or MS4, you can't accurately know which residencies are "the best" the same way that these rankings can't accurately determine which school is "the best". Anyone that thinks they know all this information is fooling themselves. Third party rankings can only use information that is given to them and you see limited amounts of information in an interview that is presented in the best possible way. We're all supposed to be logical thinkers so you should realize that it is virtually impossible to assess how good 100 schools are versus each other. You can't visit them all and no one has been thru all 4 years at multiple schools at the same time. I could give you 100 different cell phones and you would struggle to rank them all with all their features even if they were right in front of you. Schools are all over the country and are being ranked by some diverse group of people sitting at a desk with biased information that was sent to them by the school. It's like employers that ask employees to do their own reviews.

 

[jr93]

thank you.

not to mention that i've already said i dont go to a top school so if i was actually arguing that non-top-school graduates make crappy physicians i'd be insulting myself

We all want to be good doctors right? Obviously, some just want the money but I hope most like medicine. If that's the case, what's the point of prestige then if you're confident you'll be a good doctor and you didn't go to a top school. In the end, patients and fellow staff won't care what residency you did if you suck. Especially if you suck while also bragging about the prestigious things you've done. Like I've been saying, get into the best med school FOR YOU and try to get into the best residency FOR YOU. If you don't get into one because your school wasn't "good enough" you probably didn't want to go there anyway because you'll just have to put up with the people that think they're better than you anyway. Prestige is stupid and the chief residents at the two hospitals in my town are typically from schools that aren't "top tier".

 

[metview]

You're essentially saying that residency prestige is also extremely important as well which I'd also disagree with. It's all on the person is my entire point. The discussion started with a question about getting in as an MS1 to med schools and it was taken to the residency discussion so you're getting way off base. As an MS3 or MS4, you can't accurately know which residencies are "the best" the same way that these rankings can't accurately determine which school is "the best". Anyone that thinks they know all this information is fooling themselves. Third party rankings can only use information that is given to them and you see limited amounts of information in an interview that is presented in the best possible way. We're all supposed to be logical thinkers so you should realize that it is virtually impossible to assess how good 100 schools are versus each other. You can't visit them all and no one has been thru all 4 years at multiple schools at the same time. I could give you 100 different cell phones and you would struggle to rank them all with all their features even if they were right in front of you. Schools are all over the country and are being ranked by some diverse group of people sitting at a desk with biased information that was sent to them by the school. It's like employers that ask employees to do their own reviews.

I don't think he is referring to the prestige of the residency as to so much as the TYPE of residency. Lower ranked schools are going to have LESS people matching into competitive residencies (rad onc, ophthalmology, ortho, etc.). It is harder to get into these competitive fields coming from a lower ranked med school than it would be coming from a top ranked one.


Also, I like how this thread got derailed from the OP. lol

 

[Pons Asinorum]

...and a peen shot of Jon Hamm. Yeah pretty deep and thoughtful discussion going on.

Just stepping in to take a bow. That thread had it coming

 

[235009]

I don't think he is referring to the prestige of the residency as to so much as the TYPE of residency. Lower ranked schools are going to have LESS people matching into competitive residencies (rad onc, ophthalmology, ortho, etc.). It is harder to get into these competitive fields coming from a lower ranked med school than it would be coming from a top ranked one.

no

thanks for trying to help but please don't perpetuate another ridiculous SDN myth.

in general WHAT you go into depends on your preference but WHERE you go depends on your performance and the name of your med school.

 

[jr93]

no

thanks for trying to help but please don't perpetuate another ridiculous SDN myth.

in general WHAT you go into depends on your preference but WHERE you go depends on your performance and the name of your med school.

Basically meaning that prestige means nothing. So back to the OP. Screw the "top 15" and do what's best for you and shoot to do what you want to do. Score well and don't piss off the doctors you meet during MS3&4 and you'll have a good shot to do anything you want. In the end, you make the difference and not the school or residency. No one can rank the "greatness" of residencies accurately. If there are 50 good surgery residencies, differentiating between 50 and 1 is almost impossible. skinMD will just think a few of them are "the best". Speaking of SDN myths, there was another thread about low-tier schools and luckily many people in there mentioned that there is no such thing so some people realize the truth. When reading "prestige" comments, always keep in mind that this is the "prestige" forum and there are people that think a 36 MCAT score is "okay" and anyone not in the top of their class will be a crappy doctor that can't match into anything but FM.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Just stepping in to take a bow. That thread had it coming

Won't lie that one picture made me stumble on the jonhammswang tumblr...I spent a good few minutes laughing my ass off.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Won't lie that one picture made me stumble on the jonhammswang tumblr...I spent a good few minutes laughing my ass off.

Did the same. I had heard about it bubbling away in social media till the one day I said **** it and clicked the link. That's a guy who knows exactly what he's doing.