Murderer admitted to Swedish medical school

Started by bashir
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LizzyM said:
I thought that this was a very interesting article. Note that Swedish law prohibits criminal background checks. As I've often said, US background checks are to pick up this stuff, not the underage drinking that worries so many of you.
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That sounds like the cherry on the top of a pile of $hit. There are so many holes in that explanation of how that kid got into med school in the first place, got expelled, got in to another med school, and so on and so forth. I swear from the sound of it there are Monkeys running the country over there.
 
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gujuDoc said:
Makes me glad to live in the USA!!!!!! That is sooooooo sick that they could let such a person into med school.
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If you take a good look at the article, you'll see that the Swedish believe that once a debt to society is paid, the slate is wiped clean and the applicant has a fresh start. Reminds me of a story my dad tells of one of his first days working on a psych ward. "This patient killed someone?!?" "Not recently." his co-worker replied. So, a major cultural difference between the US and the Swedes with regard to rehabilitation of criminals, yet in practice we see that they are not so comfortable with that approach to ex-convicts.
 
That story is scary.
But i'm wondering, how in the world did he earn credits for medical school while in prison??? Or do they mean pre-reqs?
 
LizzyM said:
If you take a good look at the article, you'll see that the Swedish believe that once a debt to society is paid, the slate is wiped clean and the applicant has a fresh start. Reminds me of a story my dad tells of one of his first days working on a psych ward. "This patient killed someone?!?" "Not recently." his co-worker replied. So, a major cultural difference between the US and the Swedes with regard to rehabilitation of criminals, yet in practice we see that they are not so comfortable with that approach to ex-convicts.
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This is exactly why there is such a high rate of recidivism in the USA. If we don't allow the reintegration of convicts who have paid their debt to society, how can we possibly expect them to live within the confines of a society that ostracizes them and prevents them from obtaining gainful employment. They have no choice but to resort to criminal behavior to support themselves, which in turn fuels a cycle of destructive behavior that ultimately leads them back to prison.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I don't really see the point of a criminal justice system that only punishes and doesn't rehabilitate because the punishment only hardens the criminals. This is something our society really needs to open a dialogue about and try to tackle.
 
Live4Life said:
This is exactly why there is such a high rate of recidivism in the USA. If we don't allow the reintegration of convicts who have paid their debt to society, how can we possibly expect them to live within the confines of a society that ostracizes them and prevents them from obtaining gainful employment. They have no choice but to resort to criminal behavior to support themselves, which in turn fuels a cycle of destructive behavior that ultimately leads them back to prison.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I don't really see the point of a criminal justice system that only punishes and doesn't rehabilitate because the punishment only hardens the criminals. This is something our society really needs to open a dialogue about and try to tackle.
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+1. The solution is not to allow neo-Nazi murders into medical school though...
 
2 years of probation for raping a 14 year old boy and 6.5 year of prison for murder? This coming from the land of Volvo and Ikea? Talk about Liberalism run amuck!
 
ChairmanMao said:
2 years of probation for raping a 14 year old boy and 6.5 year of prison for murder? This coming from the land of Volvo and Ikea? Talk about Liberalism run amuck!
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lol in my opinion that was the part of the article that was the most unbelievable.
 
This is very disturbing. I'm sort of for "wiping the slate clean" so to speak but murder seems like you're crossing a line from which you cannot ever return. Like you're not ever the same again after that boundary-wise.

Scary stuff and he's a pedophilic rapist? Scary scary. What if he wants to do Peds? Major room for problems there.
 
ProteinChemist said:
This is very disturbing. I'm sort of for "wiping the slate clean" so to speak but murder seems like you're crossing a line from which you cannot ever return. Like you're not ever the same again after that boundary-wise.

Scary stuff and he's a pedophilic rapist? Scary scary. What if he wants to do Peds? Major room for problems there.
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I could be wrong since I just skimmed through the article but I believe the rapist and the murderer are two different people. I think they just brought up the rapist as another example to prove a point.

Too bad he falsified his high school grades otherwise I would find his medical school admissions would be impressive and maybe inspirational? If you believe people can be reformed then wouldn't a murderer deciding to go through the rigors of medical school and presumably become a productive member of society be an indication of the success of the criminal justice system rather than a cause for alarm?
 
scg said:
I could be wrong since I just skimmed through the article but I believe the rapist and the murderer are two different people. I think they just brought up the rapist as another example to prove a point.

Too bad he falsified his high school grades otherwise I would find his medical school admissions would be impressive and maybe inspirational? If you believe people can be reformed then wouldn't a murderer deciding to go through the rigors of medical school and presumably become a productive member of society be an indication of the success of the criminal justice system rather than a cause for alarm?
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I like the optimism. I probably wouldn't take my chances on it, but I do like the optimism.
 
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6.5 years served for hate murder?

Wow...makes you think. That'd get you 25 to life, if not death row here. Interesting how different countries view the weight of different crimes...
 
gujuDoc said:
Again, no I don't believe that is proof of success of a criminal justice system, just what a criminal justice system viewed as long enough of a sentence. i may believe rehabilitation in society is possible but not believe in putting them in a position where they can commit murder again. Only this time they can do it through having the instruments to be less obvious about it because of medical instrumentation and access to medicines and other tools to which they may commit such a crime.

The likelihood of someone who has committed a crime before committing one in the future is greater then for someone with no background record, especially in cases like this where it was not self defense due to abuse or your life being in danger but someone who is pro neonazi.
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Aside from throwing them into a very deep well, how can you not put them in a position where they can commit murder again? It sounds like you are saying that you support rehabilitation but you don't want to treat them like they're rehabilitated? How can someone be rehabilitated in society when everyone still treats them like criminals?

Although you provided no evidence that someone with prior convictions has a greater chance of committing future crimes I believe you that this correlation exists. However, do we know what causes these repeat offenses? Is it the inherent nature of these people or is it the way the system is set up and the prejudices these people face upon leaving prison?

And ya, I'm finding it hard to justify his neonazi views. Maybe he just has a unique view and is misunderstood?
 
uhhhhh maybe it's just me but if some guy made poor life choices and MURDERED someone, I don't care how many streets he picks trash off of, I am not letting that guy become a doctor. That is insane! I am opposed to reintegration for MURDERERS...if you murder someone, you void your right to your own life --> time for some bzzt bzzt or lethal injection.
 
Live4Life said:
This is exactly why there is such a high rate of recidivism in the USA. If we don't allow the reintegration of convicts who have paid their debt to society, how can we possibly expect them to live within the confines of a society that ostracizes them and prevents them from obtaining gainful employment. They have no choice but to resort to criminal behavior to support themselves, which in turn fuels a cycle of destructive behavior that ultimately leads them back to prison.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I don't really see the point of a criminal justice system that only punishes and doesn't rehabilitate because the punishment only hardens the criminals. This is something our society really needs to open a dialogue about and try to tackle.
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Please explain to us sane people here how exactly one repays the debt of taking another life. If you are taking about the electric chair (eco-friendly!) or the firing squad, right on. Cost effective and protects people because these rapists/murderers can never prowl the streets again.
 
Red Leader said:
uhhhhh maybe it's just me but if some guy made poor life choices and MURDERED someone, I don't care how many streets he picks trash off of, I am not letting that guy become a doctor. That is insane! I am opposed to reintegration for MURDERERS...if you murder someone, you void your right to your own life --> time for some bzzt bzzt or lethal injection.
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I see your point and I can't fathom how a neo-Nazi murderer could have beat out 2200 other deserving applicants for one of 100 acceptances that the medical school gives out every year. The medical school there should do some serious soul searching.
 
ChairmanMao said:
I see your point and I can't fathom how a neo-Nazi murderer could have beat out 2200 other deserving applicants for one of 100 acceptances that the medical school gives out every year. The medical school there should do some serious soul searching.
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The admittance of the convict was not done with foreknowledge of his criminal record, at least for the current med school he is in, because the school said they have tried to expel him but can't since they found no rules that says students, once admitted, can be expelled for their past criminal history.

Also, keep in mind that it was only recently that our med school application required people to admit to prior felony convictions (and recently, to misdemeanor offenses). I am not aware of a full background check that med schools do, although someone more involved in the admissions process may shed some light on that.

Also, was he convicted of first degree murder? 11 years with 6 years out for good behavior is more common for manslaughter or other less murder charges. Even in this country, we see that plenty of times, premeditated murder is different from killing in the heat of an argument, or incidental killing etc. The article never made clear the circumstances of his crime, only that he had neo-nazi sympathies and killed a person after which he seemed to turn over a new leaf and focus on his academic coursework.

I believe in rehabilitation of criminals, but I still think when a serious crime has been committed, we should not be so quick to put ex-convicts in positions of authority. Given enough time as a law abiding citizen, I can provide leeway for an excon to be a doctor or teacher (say, 15-20 years after good behavior), but if the crime is fairly recent, I believe they should try to focus on jobs that does not put them in such position of authority. That said, a justice system that stresses rehabilitation is probably a better system than a pure punitive one.
 
time for me to apply to med school in sweden! finally, no more pesky background checks!
 
gujuDoc said:
Yeah that is really, really, really sick!!!!
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In my country, if you did either of those two things, you get a bullet to the back of your head (or worst) and they harvest your organs to help someone in need of an organ transplant. And the Swedish government dares accuse us of human rights violations.
 
ChairmanMao said:
In my country, if you did either of those two things, you get a bullet to the back of your head (or worst) and they harvest your organs to help someone in need of an organ transplant. And the Swedish government dares accuse us of human rights violations.
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Well said Chairman Mao of......Northeast Ohio? Those silly backwards Swedes...hahaha
 
We are a country fixated with incarceration. No other country in the world comes even close to the number of life sentences we hand out here in the US.
 
convicted in the 1999 hate murder of a trade union worker and was paroled after serving 6 ½ years of an 11-year sentence — a typical penalty for murder in Sweden.

wtfffffffffffff, i'm scared to travel to sweden to visit my aunt now.
 
Red Leader said:
Please explain to us sane people here how exactly one repays the debt of taking another life. If you are taking about the electric chair (eco-friendly!) or the firing squad, right on. Cost effective and protects people because these rapists/murderers can never prowl the streets again.
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I wasn't talking about rapists and murderers. I was talking about petty/grand larceny, drug possession, etc...
 
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LizzyM said:
If you take a good look at the article, you'll see that the Swedish believe that once a debt to society is paid, the slate is wiped clean and the applicant has a fresh start. Reminds me of a story my dad tells of one of his first days working on a psych ward. "This patient killed someone?!?" "Not recently." his co-worker replied. So, a major cultural difference between the US and the Swedes with regard to rehabilitation of criminals, yet in practice we see that they are not so comfortable with that approach to ex-convicts.
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I think it's a valid point, but I think that serving 6.5 years in prison for a murder is absolutely absurd. I certainly don't trust that he's changed at all. Furthermore, the guy is a neo-Nazi sympathizer, and the murder was ruled a hate crime. I'd say that I would NEVER trust this guy.
 
Live4Life said:
I wasn't talking about rapists and murderers. I was talking about petty/grand larceny, drug possession, etc...
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And this topic was talking about.......none of the stuff you were talking about. Reading FTL!

Death penalty for murderers/rapists/child abusers!!
 
Red Leader said:
And this topic was talking about.......none of the stuff you were talking about. Reading FTL!

Death penalty for murderers/rapists/child abusers!!
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Actually, you clearly didn't read my previous post. My original response was a commentary based on LizzyM's comment about how different societies treat ex-convicts. My post was worded in such a way that I wasn't talking about a specific situation; rather, I was talking about how our society treats ex-convicts and the ramifications of their reintegration into society. No where in my original post did I say anything about any specific crimes.

Also, I'd encourage you to consider both the pros and cons of having capital punishment. I'm not saying I'm for or against it, because I am for it in theory as society needs a deterrent against those lacking the self control to live peacefully among others, but I'm also against it in practicality. Do you know how many times individuals on death row have been deemed innocent in the last ten years? Do you honestly think allowing one innocent person to be put to death is acceptable? Imagine that you were wrongly convicted and rotting away on death row when you didn't commit the crime. The risk of handing down a death sentence to even one innocent person cannot be justified, so how do we prevent this from happening?
 
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Two things: 1. Someone committing a murder in US would be locked up for life. 2. Based on premise 1, I agree that convicts should be exculpated once they pay their dues. This will make our society more productive and less wasteful in terms of the prison system.

The Swedes got #2 right, but they are somewhat messed up on #1. Many psychologists seem to agree that anyone capable of murder or rape once will always be capable to do it again.

I don't know if you have heard, but I think there is a theory out there that most doctors, especially surgeons, are very sadistic and doing surgery is just a socially acceptable venue for them to sublimate their sadism. This maybe a perfect case of sublimation of extreme sadism. I wonder how it will work out or if there are prior successful cases in any of the European countries.
 
Live4Life said:
Also, I'd encourage you to consider both the pros and cons of having capital punishment. I'm not saying I'm for or against it, because I am for it in theory as society needs a deterrent against those lacking the self control to live peacefully among others, but I'm also against it in practicality. Do you know how many times individuals on death row have been deemed innocent in the last ten years? Do you honestly think allowing one innocent person to be put to death is acceptable? Imagine that you were wrongly convicted and rotting away on death row when you didn't commit the crime. The risk of handing down a death sentence to even one innocent person cannot be justified, so how do we prevent this from happening?
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Valid points sir, but here's the answer: DNA sequencing

Unless you happen to have an identical twin, you are probably not going to be sentenced and innocent these days (oh unless you were framed by powerful people under which circumstances you are screwed either way). PCR tech has developed these past few decades and when you hear about those cases its always about how DNA cleared them.

Furthermore, what you are talking about here is a problem with the justice system. There is nothing wrong about the death penalty, you are just attributing the failures of the justice system to the death penalty. Sentencing an innocent person is the failure of the system. Fix that, and you will have solved your question.
 
gujuDoc said:
AGREED!!! Rehabilitate, but rehabilitation doesn't mean letting them in a field where people's lives are in your hands. Rehabilitate them by putting them in jobs where people's lives are not at stake.
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For the sake of this argument - Lives are in the hands of every McDonalds cook across the country. If they slip something in the fries, people will die. This is a slippery slope. While MD's are given a lot of responsibility and are in a position where harm can be inflicted upon another very easily, where do you draw the line? Reform and thought about people who commit crimes (Notice I'm not saying "Criminals") is a huge necessity in this country. I sure as hell don't know the answer though. I know this is kind of asinine, but in reality if a person can interact with society they can put lives at stake.
 
Forbes said:
For the sake of this argument - Lives are in the hands of every McDonalds cook across the country. If they slip something in the fries, people will die. This is a slippery slope. While MD's are given a lot of responsibility and are in a position where harm can be inflicted upon another very easily, where do you draw the line? Reform and thought about people who commit crimes (Notice I'm not saying "Criminals") is a huge necessity in this country. I sure as hell don't know the answer though. I know this is kind of asinine, but in reality if a person can interact with society they can put lives at stake.
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Finally someone gets it. The only way to prevent this is to remove them from society forever. How? --> bzzt bzzt
 
Excelsius said:
I don't know if you have heard, but I think there is a theory out there that most doctors, especially surgeons, are very sadistic and doing surgery is just a socially acceptable venue for them to sublimate their sadism. This maybe a perfect case of sublimation of extreme sadism. I wonder how it will work out or if there are prior successful cases in any of the European countries.
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Source please. I view surgery as a way to heal people.
 
Guy should have been a dentist instead, he would have fit right in.

If you kill someone, then you are scum. If he had served 50 years in prison and was like Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption, then maybe I could see why he could be forgiven. Otherwise, f--- him.

For people who go to jail for drugs and fights and things like that, I think it's a different story. But murderers/rapists should be legally stamped "inhuman".
 
There seem to be two points of contention here:

1) Somehow this nazi killed a guy and got less time in jail than someone in the US would for a third DUI

2) Once released, his records were sealed so they had no basis not to permit him to matriculate inti medical school.

Personally, I only really have a problem with point 1. I really do think it's rediculous that we in the US continue to cling to the concept of an 'ex-con'. Either someone should be removed from our society, or they should be fully a part of it. Releasing people from prision and then making them disclose that they're a convicted felon (or worse yet, a convicted sex offender) makes them second class citizens seems like a pretty perfect way to make sure that the only career path that will ever be open to them is crime.

HOWEVER that's not reason why this guy should have gotten into med school because he never should have gotten out of jail in the first place. The average sentence for murder there is f'in crazy.
 
Anyone have any statistics on the effectivness of Sweden's (or any other similar country's) criminal justice system?
 
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Perrotfish said:
Releasing people from prision and then making them disclose that they're a convicted felon (or worse yet, a convicted sex offender) makes them second class citizens seems like a pretty perfect way to make sure that the only career path that will ever be open to them is crime.
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OK, so a public school teacher gets sentenced to 4 years and serves one year with one year probation for sexual assault of a 15 year old girl. Should we admit him to medical school? Would you want this guy doing a clerkship in pediatrics, adolescent medicine or gynecology?

Having lost his teaching license, should be permit him to rehabilitate himself and get a medical license??
 
LizzyM said:
OK, so a public school teacher gets sentenced to 4 years and serves one year with one year probation for sexual assault of a 15 year old girl. Should we admit him to medical school? Would you want this guy doing a clerkship in pediatrics, adolescent medicine or gynecology?

Having lost his teaching license, should be permit him to rehabilitate himself and get a medical license??
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Okay, so how about this.

Eighteen year old kid has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Her dad finds out, doesn't like it and calls the cops. Kid gets arrested and convicted of statutory rape. Gets a year in prison and has to register as a sex offender for life.

Do you admit him to your med school?

If you do, what do you say when Nancy Grace calls?
 
turkeyjerky said:
Okay, so how about this.

Eighteen year old kid has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Her dad finds out, doesn't like it and calls the cops. Kid gets arrested and convicted of statutory rape. Gets a year in prison and has to register as a sex offender for life.

Do you admit him to your med school?

If you do, what do you say when Nancy Grace calls?
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hmm interesting scenario. Looks like the kid gets screwed both ways! :laugh: 👍

Anyways, no exceptions. He will be a registered sex offender, he will have a GPS implanted inside him or an ankle tracker to make sure he stays away from the children. He will have to report this if he wants to be a doctor on his AMCAS. He will suffer a lifetime for not waiting another year or two to copulate depending on which state this completely hypothetical situation "occurred" in.
 
Can't help but go into a bit of a scrubs fantasy sequence here, interviewing this guy for med school...

"So... you're a neo-nazi pedophilic rapist/murderer... how do you think that perpared you to work in medicine?"
 
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