MD & DO My biggest fear is not my own abilities as a physician, but....

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Robin-jay

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My biggest fear is not my own abilities as a physician, but.... how much the residency director, managers, etc. are cool with me.

I say this because in my experience, the real world doesn't care how productive you are, they seem to only care if they like you.

As a medical scribe, the physicians seemed to not care for the good scribes if they just didn't get along with them. Same with other jobs, like EMT, CNA, etc.

People seem to get fired when the boss just doesn't like you, regardless of productivity.

My fear is that I will go through medical school, become a physician, get a residency, and for some reasons (any reason) my colleagues/boss wouldn't like me and fire me, regardless of my abilities as a physician.

I say this because I see it happen way too much for comfort. I've seen scribes/EMTs/CNAs work twice as hard as their colleagues only to be fired because the boss didn't really like them for whatever reason (sometimes as minor as the boss not caring to have a conversation with the employee and not finding them "fun" to talk to).

it was slightly a "shocker" coming out of chemistry graduate school and realizing the real world is extremely cut-throat, but not in the way I expected it to (productivity, efficiently), but cut-throat because it appears "how much the boss likes you" is by far more important, and who knows if My future residency directors, etc. will.

What are you thoughts?

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Medical scribes are very replaceable, with tons of premeds seeking the clinical experience points scribing offers. Physicians, however, are highly valued. As long as you don't have a severe personality disorder that you refuse to seek treatment for, you'll have no problem maintaining a job as long as you're competent.
 
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It's 50/50. I don't want to work with someone who can't pull their own weight and make everyone else pick up their slack. Like, that freakin sucks especially if you're in a busy field like surgery. And I also don't want to work with someone who's a douche about everything and doesn't understand that they're in the wrong. I don't care if you're focused on your work, as long as you're a good worker. But it gets nasty when you suck AND you're a douche.

I'm a firm believer that not everyone is going to like you. But also, not everybody should hate you either. If you're the latter, you're the problem.
 
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Relationship skills are key. Develop them and your life will be that much easier, your goals that much more attainable.
Without them no amount of fabulous medical acumen, killer Step scores or AOA designation will save you.

this was alarming in your post: “are cool with me“

it isnt about you. If you think it is, then you will definitely fail. Humble thyself. Stat

Ya, generally I don't have any issues because I'm incredibly laid back, and incredibly non-confronting. However, I have noticed that if your boss doesn't "enjoy" talking to you, usually because your "interests differ", then that can actually cause issues.
 
It's 50/50. I don't want to work with someone who can't pull their own weight and make everyone else pick up their slack. Like, that freakin sucks especially if you're in a busy field like surgery. And I also don't want to work with someone who's a douche about everything and doesn't understand that they're in the wrong. I don't care if you're focused on your work, as long as you're a good worker. But it gets nasty when you suck AND you're a douche.

I'm a firm believer that not everyone is going to like you. But also, not everybody should hate you either. If you're the latter, you're the problem.

I'm not a douche or anything. If anything, I proceed with extreme caution and am pretty meticulous and tedious in my procedures.

I guess when I say "your boss doesn't like you", I mostly mean you don't have any similar interests as them, and they just don't find you fun to talk to. Not a "douchey or pompous" problem in the slightest.
 
My fear is that I will go through medical school, become a physician, get a residency, and for some reasons (any reason) my colleagues/boss wouldn't like me and fire me, regardless of my abilities as a physician.

Eh. I feel like if you’re a good doctor and not a dick you’ll be fine. If you’re a really good doctor but a dick you’ll still be fine.

If you really are worrying that you’ll get fired as a doctor because no one likes you, then the problem is clearly you.

I would try not to worry about this. Be a nice person and you’ll be fine.
 
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Eh. I feel like if you’re a good doctor and not a dick you’ll be fine. If you’re a really good doctor but a dick you’ll still be fine.

If you really are worrying that you’ll get fired as a doctor because no one likes you, then the problem is clearly you.

I would try not to worry about this. Be a nice person and you’ll be fine.

I've seen nice people fired because the bosses didn't find them interesting to to talk to.

The best analogy I can think of is like a romantic relationship.

It doesn't matter if you're nice, it doesn't mean much. You just have to have similar interests or be interesting to talk to for you boss.

That's what I've seen anyway. But if being a physician is more "safe guarded" against some of those issues, then that's great. But I would hate to accumulate 300k of debt only to be fired in residency because the residency director didn't like me that much. Things like that are nerve wrecking.
 
Being likable is a trait and a skill just like anything else. Not sure why we act like it isn't a valid way to judge someone against someone else.
 
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Being likable is a trait and a skill just like anything else. Not sure why we act like it isn't a valid way to judge someone against someone else.

I understand that being likable is important. But it can be a little intense in the "real world". I worked before medical school, and I can assure you academia babies their students and everyone is equal. No one understands how much academia babies you until you're working.

Not in the real world. Way, way, way more cut-throat.
 
But I would hate to accumulate 300k of debt only to be fired in residency because the residency director didn't like me that much. Things like that are nerve wrecking.

Again, normal people who are nice and work hard shouldn't have to worry about this. Residency programs invest in their residents, depend on them, and want them to succeed. The two ways you get kicked out of residency are if you absolutely straight up suck as a doctor and nothing will ever make you better, or if you have a ****ty attitude. Other than that, be nice and work hard and you'll do fine. Stop extrapolating the job security of scribes and whatnot to physicians.
 
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The two ways you get kicked out of residency are if you absolutely straight up suck as a doctor and nothing will ever make you better, or if you have a ****ty attitude.

Just curious, what are the most common reasons why a doctor would "suck" at being a doctor?
 
I understand that being likable is important. But it can be a little intense in the "real world". I worked before medical school, and I can assure you academia babies their students and everyone is equal. No one understands how much academia babies you until you're working.

Not in the real world. Way, way, way more cut-throat.

And that’s how it should be honestly. However let’s not pretend that the real world also doesn’t reward productivity. It thrives on it even more than academia, however one of the criteria of being productive is being a human being that other human beings want to be around. The truth is that people very rarely ever get fired simply because they have different interests than someone else like you mention, in my experience the people who are the hardest to get along with are the people who also have productivity issues. Hence, they get fired.

Additionally, every position you are mentioning is an entry level job that is easily replaceable. A licensed physician is not as easily replaced.
 
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Just curious, what are the most common reasons why a doctor would "suck" at being a doctor?

I don't want to fuel your anxiety, but (based on what I've seen in the resident forums), these would be residents who just can't come up with appropriate management plans for their patients given their level of training , can't stay organized or are careless and make constant mistakes because of this, etc.

If you just have a good attitude and work hard, programs will really work with you to try to get you to improve. Programs really do not want to lose a resident. If you have a bad attitude and blame others for your problems and aren't willing to admit your shortcomings, then you will have a problem.

tl;dr: work hard and don't be a dick and you'll get through just fine. Again, if you're constantly worrying about getting fired, then it is you who is the problem.


The best analogy I can think of is like a romantic relationship.

No.
 
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And that’s how it should be honestly. However let’s not pretend that the real world also doesn’t reward productivity. It thrives on it even more than academia, however one of the criteria of being productive is being a human being that other human beings want to be around. The truth is that people very rarely ever get fired simply because they have different interests than someone else like you mention, in my experience the people who are the hardest to get along with are the people who also have productivity issues. Hence, they get fired.

Additionally, every position you are mentioning is an entry level job that is easily replaceable. A licensed physician is not as easily replaced.

All fair points. Its just my experience in seeing people work hard and do well get fired because they are "less connected and are less friends" with the physicians when they were scribing, CNA, etc.

One example is this super talkative girl with a non-science degree that is absolutely horrendous at being a CNA, forgetful, and never pays attention, etc. But she is a cute, talkative girl who the physicians and staff enjoy conversing with.

Then there was a guy with strong science backgrounds, would work during lunch hours, get the job done fast and efficiently but engaged less in small talk with the physicians and staff, and was ultimately laid off so the girl could have full time status hours.

They fired a scribe where the physician switched areas and the scribe company had no more spots open for the chap. So they decided to lie and fire him for "poor performance" and not try to get him a spot when one opened up or anything. Easiest way to deal the problem, was to fire him, and lie about the reason why.

My experience as a scribe allowed me to see all types of this behavior, and it was rather rampant where I worked. Working for a scribe company and with the lower tier members of healthcare may have put a pessimistic sting into my mouth, but it was downright dirty.
 
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I don't want to fuel your anxiety, but (based on what I've seen in the resident forums), these would be residents who just can't come up with appropriate management plans for their patients given their level of training , can't stay organized or are careless and make constant mistakes because of this, etc.

If you just have a good attitude and work hard, programs will really work with you to try to get you to improve. Programs really do not want to lose a resident. If you have a bad attitude and blame others for your problems and aren't willing to admit your shortcomings, then you will have a problem.

tl;dr: work hard and don't be a dick and you'll get through just fine. Again, if you're constantly worrying about getting fired, then it is you who is the problem.

Do you know that stats on individuals who lose their jobs during residency (how many)? Do you know what they do when that happens? What are the academic, etc. opportunities for someone who fails residency?
 
Do you know that stats on individuals who lose their jobs during residency (how many)? Do you know what they do when that happens? What are the academic, etc. opportunities for someone who fails residency?

I wouldn't worry about this. You will not be everyone's favorite and someone may not like you for whatever reason (gender, race, ethnicity, etc). But you can't let this bother you. Just focus on your work and be reasonably nice to people.

Getting fired from residency is very rare. So far I know three people who were asked to leave. Two couldn't do their work efficiently in IM and switched specialties (anesthesia and OBGYN), and another was in a malignant program but transferred to another program as is doing fine.
 
OP, you should be worried because just reading your posts is getting on my nerves. I'm sorry that people who are well liked tend to keep their jobs. Life is unfair.
 
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OP, you should be worried because just reading your posts is getting on my nerves. I'm sorry that people who are well liked tend to keep their jobs. Life is unfair.

Never know, I could be your star pupil one day.
 
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I wouldn't worry about this. You will not be everyone's favorite and someone may not like you for whatever reason (gender, race, ethnicity, etc). But you can't let this bother you. Just focus on your work and be reasonably nice to people.

Getting fired from residency is very rare. So far I know three people who were asked to leave. Two couldn't do their work efficiently in IM and switched specialties (anesthesia and OBGYN), and another was in a malignant program but transferred to another program as is doing fine.

Ah, so you can switch residencies of one does not pan out? I mostly thought you were just "kind of out of luck" if your original residency experience didn't go well.

Well, I learned what a "malignant program" is today.

I'm at more ease knowing that you can always change residencies if one goes sour. Chances of two unlucky programs are much rarer than one.
 
MDs have options outside of medicine. DOs don't really.

While it's good to be cognizant of the potential for being fired, in practice firings are extremely rare. Focus on doing a good job, don't start drama, the end.
Care to elaborate? I hope you’re not saying that working in the private sector is out.
 
My biggest fear is not my own abilities as a physician, but.... how much the residency director, managers, etc. are cool with me.

I say this because in my experience, the real world doesn't care how productive you are, they seem to only care if they like you.

As a medical scribe, the physicians seemed to not care for the good scribes if they just didn't get along with them. Same with other jobs, like EMT, CNA, etc.

People seem to get fired when the boss just doesn't like you, regardless of productivity.

My fear is that I will go through medical school, become a physician, get a residency, and for some reasons (any reason) my colleagues/boss wouldn't like me and fire me, regardless of my abilities as a physician.

I say this because I see it happen way too much for comfort. I've seen scribes/EMTs/CNAs work twice as hard as their colleagues only to be fired because the boss didn't really like them for whatever reason (sometimes as minor as the boss not caring to have a conversation with the employee and not finding them "fun" to talk to).

it was slightly a "shocker" coming out of chemistry graduate school and realizing the real world is extremely cut-throat, but not in the way I expected it to (productivity, efficiently), but cut-throat because it appears "how much the boss likes you" is by far more important, and who knows if My future residency directors, etc. will.

What are you thoughts?
Are you a physician?
 
Of course there's favoritism and a "liking you" factor. Every career field deals with that. I kind of broke even over the years, as I spent time on both the winning end and losing end of it during my stages of training. Sometimes it's hard to notice when it's benefitting you.

Trust that it will work out for you the way it is supposed to in the end (i.e. the job that you ultimately get). 3 years ago I didn't see myself doing what I do now, but in retrospect it was the best thing for me.
 
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I think you're perseverating on the wrong things. You're worried about this and that and for the most part that's outside of your control. So who cares? Stop worrying about that. There are colleagues that I've worked with that I don't get along with at all in personal/social settings, but they're competent and do good work and thus all is good at work. If you come in and take care of your ****, treat everyone with respect, then I don't see how/why you should even be worried about this. Cheers.
 
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I've seen nice people fired because the bosses didn't find them interesting to to talk to.

The best analogy I can think of is like a romantic relationship.

It doesn't matter if you're nice, it doesn't mean much. You just have to have similar interests or be interesting to talk to for you boss.

That's what I've seen anyway. But if being a physician is more "safe guarded" against some of those issues, then that's great. But I would hate to accumulate 300k of debt only to be fired in residency because the residency director didn't like me that much. Things like that are nerve wrecking.

This doesn’t make much sense to me. It’s a lot of work and a significant expense to hire a new employee. How big is your sample size? Maybe you have skewed perspective, cuz I’ve never seen this happen.
 
Yes, your ability to relate to others matters. It matters less in medical school because how you do academically takes precedence. You start to get a taste of this on the wards, but in the pre-clinical world you personal skills are effectively irrelevant.

This is not the case in residency. You do not have to be a social butterfly, but at a minimum you have to not be annoying. If you make the experience of being at work better for others, all the better. People will want to spend more time with you if that experience is positive. This is basic human behavior.

That being said, I don't think that the opposite is true - i.e., if you aren't likable then you have no possibility of success. There are plenty of people that are complete donkeys and yet manage to succeed in a career. The quality of your work and your ability to be a good physician is relevant - probably the most important thing with respect to career advancement, really. It is necessary but not sufficient, depending on what you want to do and your ambitions. Being in clinical leadership, for example, will depend heavily on your interpersonal skills. Being a top-notch researcher... not so much, though even then you have to at least be tolerable enough (or successful enough) that people are willing to put up with you.
 
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I know of 1 MD who went to Wall Street, another to health care IT, both doing at least as well as if they had stayed in medicine.

I don't know of any DOs who do not practice. There are academic DOs as well.
Ah, okay. I thought you were making a statement based on some sort of empirical evidence. :p

Getting a corporate job at a doc is more about networking than anything else, I imagine.
 
All fair points. Its just my experience in seeing people work hard and do well get fired because they are "less connected and are less friends" with the physicians when they were scribing, CNA, etc.

One example is this super talkative girl with a non-science degree that is absolutely horrendous at being a CNA, forgetful, and never pays attention, etc. But she is a cute, talkative girl who the physicians and staff enjoy conversing with.

Then there was a guy with strong science backgrounds, would work during lunch hours, get the job done fast and efficiently but engaged less in small talk with the physicians and staff, and was ultimately laid off so the girl could have full time status hours.

They fired a scribe where the physician switched areas and the scribe company had no more spots open for the chap. So they decided to lie and fire him for "poor performance" and not try to get him a spot when one opened up or anything. Easiest way to deal the problem, was to fire him, and lie about the reason why.

My experience as a scribe allowed me to see all types of this behavior, and it was rather rampant where I worked. Working for a scribe company and with the lower tier members of healthcare may have put a pessimistic sting into my mouth, but it was downright dirty.

Do you have empirical proof the situations went down because of all of this? I have been on the other side of such "firings" and I can tell you that there is always more to the story than what outside observers can see.
 
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OP, stop comparing job security of scribes and physicians. That's like comparing job security of the new guy at McDonalds to the district manager. Former can be replaced easier than the latter.

You will not be fired as a resident or physician for "not being chummy enough" with your boss. Don't be annoying. Don't lie. Work hard.
 
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I think you're perseverating on the wrong things. You're worried about this and that and for the most part that's outside of your control. So who cares? Stop worrying about that. There are colleagues that I've worked with that I don't get along with at all in personal/social settings, but they're competent and do good work and thus all is good at work. If you come in and take care of your ****, treat everyone with respect, then I don't see how/why you should even be worried about this. Cheers.

To some extent, my greatest fears are those I can't control. I have every belief that I can do fine as a physician. The things I can't control are what irks me the most.

Its almost like this equation:

Hardwork + perseverance + being a decent person + "luck" = decent employment as physician

Hardwork + perseverance + being a decent person + "less luck" = terrible employment as physician

However, now knowing that you can find another residency after one doesn't work out makes me feel better.

Also, its almost due to the debt thing too. If I had 0 debt and had bad employment, then i would just roll with it. But being 300k+, I feel real pressure.
 
Do you have empirical proof the situations went down because of all of this? I have been on the other side of such "firings" and I can tell you that there is always more to the story than what outside observers can see.

I've observed these interactions and considered some of these people good acquaintances (I knew their situation and saw it over a long period of time, etc.).

I guess if I had never worked for a scribe company, I wouldn't have believed the issues that I saw. Coming out of chemistry graduate school where teaching university courses was enjoyable (no bosses breathing down your neck, etc.), probably gave me notion that hard work, perseverance, and being a good person were all that was needed. not a lot of luck in academia. It's very merit based.

Imagine that you are a manager for a scribe company, and one of your employees has been an excellent employee, but their physician is switching offices several hours away. Now there are no current openings for the specialty that the scribe has worked for. It would cost the company money to keep the scribe employed while waiting for an opening to come up. Could be weeks or months I assume. The scribe company no longer cares about how good the scribe is, they now see him as only a burden to the company. With no official contract and the ability to be fired for every and any reason, what stops the scribe company from lying about poor performance and firing the chap?

it's only business after all.
 
OP, stop comparing job security of scribes and physicians. That's like comparing job security of the new guy at McDonalds to the district manager. Former can be replaced easier than the latter.

You will not be fired as a resident or physician for "not being chummy enough" with your boss. Don't be annoying. Don't lie. Work hard.

I'll take your word for it. I have not seen any physicians get fired. Just the mid-level and entry level personnel in health care. Just a thought because I've seen it happen on those levels, and was wondering if that happened on the higher. So far it seems like its worth the journey.
 
With no official contract and the ability to be fired for every and any reason, what stops the scribe company from lying about poor performance and firing the chap?

I’m seriously doubting your story, or think there is more to it than you know, because in this scenario the company has no reason to lie about poor performance. All they say is, “we don’t have a position for you, bye.” No lying necessary.
 
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I’m seriously doubting your story, or think there is more to it than you know, because in this scenario the company has no reason to lie about poor performance. All they say is, “we don’t have a position for you, bye.” No lying necessary.

I'm assuming they must have a reason to fire someone. So when they put the reason down, saying "because we don't want to wait for a spot to open" may not be as legally reasonable? They may have wanted a reason where the guy couldn't fight the reason of termination. You aren't well protected a scribe (thus why you can be fired at any time for any reason), but you might be protected enough that the true reason for being fired would still need to be changed up just to ensure the guy can't retaliate legally.

I don't know why you'd doubt the story though. If said scribe had poor performance, then why only after the physician leaving and no spots being opened would he get fired.
 
At the very least, please quit saying "chemistry grad school". You have a masters degree of some sort, a lot of people here do, we get it, good job. It doesn't add any important/meaningful/relevant detail, and there's no need to perpetually bring it up.
 
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don't know why you'd doubt the story though. If said scribe had poor performance, then why only after the physician leaving and no spots being opened would he get fired

I doubt it, and the others, because everything you have mentioned is from the perspective of a third party outsider who really has no insight into the actual situation.
I'm assuming they must have a reason to fire someone.

They do. It’s called, “we don’t have a spot for you anymore.” That’s it. That’s all they need. You even mentioned you aren’t a contracted employee who can be let go for any reason.

I feel like you are getting super worked up because of some random observations. Work hard and be a nice person. That’s it.
 
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To some extent, my greatest fears are those I can't control. I have every belief that I can do fine as a physician. The things I can't control are what irks me the most.

Its almost like this equation:

Hardwork + perseverance + being a decent person + "luck" = decent employment as physician

Hardwork + perseverance + being a decent person + "less luck" = terrible employment as physician

However, now knowing that you can find another residency after one doesn't work out makes me feel better.

Also, its almost due to the debt thing too. If I had 0 debt and had bad employment, then i would just roll with it. But being 300k+, I feel real pressure.
But you aren’t a physician and don’t really know that the real pressure is not harming people.....the pressure that being bad at your job can kill people is a bigger deal than needing to find a new job
 
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But you aren’t a physician and don’t really know that the real pressure is not harming people.....the pressure that being bad at your job can kill people is a bigger deal than needing to find a new job

I agree, but I can't help the patients if I'm not employed either!
 
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ts also one of the industries where its relatively easy to hang out your own shingle

that is an excellent point. I do like the thought of being in control at some point.

I don't mind being in residency and learning under the residency director. I've had similar situations.
 
I don't mind being in residency and learning under the residency director. I've had similar situations.

With due respect, its clear you have no idea what you’re talking about. And that’s totally ok.

I strongly suggest you worry more about incoming M1 things and less about what people will think of you during residency and beyond. The key thing you can do right now to benefit you in regard of your concerns, is be a nice person and don’t be obnoxious (and this thread is borderline obnoxious).
 
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Physicians are actually very hard to fire for a few reasons: we are highly trained, in short supply in most cases, very expensive to replace, and notorious for lawyering up because we can afford it.
 
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Physicians are expensive to train and replace, MAs and scribes are not... so if they look at someone the wrong way and that someone is having a bad day... they are gone... It's rare to see physicians get fired, and many of the times that I have seen or heard about it... it has been for some really stupid stuff and nothing to really do with their competence... just don't be a douche and do your job to the best of your ability and this is not something you will have to worry about... if they hire you, they like you... if they don't like you, they would not hire you in the first place.
 
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Getting along with coworkers, bosses, and patients is part of the job. If you are lacking in this ability it will negatively impact your ability to get things done and doing the best for your patients.
 
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