My Buddy In Radiology Said The Job Market Is A Disaster: True?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
When people say "big pay cuts," what do they exactly mean? From what I am reading, I am hearing between 16-25%. I know that we have a tremendous amount of variables, but any educational guesses?

You know how much your fess are cut when they're cut. It's not that I don't believe cuts will happen, but people have been talking about draconian cuts for years while salary surveys have not showed massive income declines (in fact, some have shown noticeable, although not significant, increases).

If you think Radiology is a good fit, you should do it. The cuts are tough to deal with, but part of me wonders how much can they really cut? How much can tuition rise? I guess we won't know until people stop entering the profession (which won't be happening anytime soon), but Medicine is going to continue to lose the top students (the vast majority of whom are already going into other fields).

Members don't see this ad.
 
When people say "big pay cuts," what do they exactly mean? From what I am reading, I am hearing between 16-25%. I know that we have a tremendous amount of variables, but any educational guesses?

All of the "official" guesses I've seen (IE, those in recruiting or economics) actually don't predict cuts. The most recent article I read actually suggested that Radiologist's salaries would rise slightly each year to, at the very least, keep up with inflation.

But you're right, if salaries are going to be cut by much more than you mentioned it would take many years for that to happen. One radiologist I spoke with said he wouldn't be surprised if salaries dropped by close to 20%. But again, I'd rather do radiology for 20% less than any other field for more.

Interesting side note: One article I read mentioned that there is actually going to be a significant shortage of radiologists in the near future as the population ages and our medical system relies increasingly on imaging. I'm not an economist, but generally when there is a shortage of a product (us), the price (salary) goes up. (Obviously I'm ignoring the long term problems associated with a shortage, including loss of some turf)
 
I'm not sure that I follow your logic. If it were only the legal system preventing the outsourcing of Radiology reads, then you would expect countries all over Western Europe (which don't have these "legal quagmires") would be outsourcing their reads. But they aren't. There are many, many, many other obstacles to outsourcing. Just to give a few examples:

-how do you think that the AMA would react to the outsourcing of Radiology reads overseas?
-how do you think the American public would react to know that Indian Radiologists are reading their head CTs?
-who would do all of the procedures? Radiologists do image-guided biopsies, angiograms, flouroscopic procedures, barium enemas, etc, which would be impossible to outsource
-if an Indian doctor is allowed to read images, how can you stop an Indian doctor from coming to the United States (not board certified) and practice in any other specialty (primary care, neurology, surgery, etc)?

My argument is: this isn't likely to ever happen. To the best of my knowledge, it has not happened in any other industrialized country. The only way it would ever happen is if the governing bodies in radiology allowed foreign medical graduates to make reads (which they never will), the medical-legal system completely transformed (which it never has), the American public became completely apathetic (unlikely), and the AMA and all other physicians stopped caring about future of American medicine (hopefully, this will never happen).
I had forgotten about this thread until people started posting again...
Yes, you're right in that it is unlikely that radiologists will lose significant market share in the foreseeable future, given the ability of the status quo to prop itself up by artificially derived means. However, something that is unsustainable is unsustainable. The only question is when and how fast it will collapse once you reach a tipping point or a black swan event occurs. My world view is currently vested in the belief that the US, as well as many nations in the world, are over-leveraged on debt, which will eventually lead to either deflationary or hyperinflationary events, depending on the actions of the central government. Both are catastrophic and will result in drastic changes in the infrastructure of the US, medical and otherwise.
This basically leads me to assess medical specialties based on intrinsic value - one decoupled from artificial value dictated by reimbursement rates, determined by third party payers. And one important component of intrinsic value is direct patient contact and influence. You're truly kidding yourself if you think patients would have strongly negative reactions to the knowledge that their images are being outsourced. There may be a small subset of patients for whom that may be true, but all it takes is a word of reassurance from the patient-facing physicians to ease those fears. The more steps removed from the patient you are, the less power you ultimately have in dictating your role in the system. And while radiologists are important in the current medico-legal system in this country, their value-add (as well as market share) would be significantly decreased in a contractionary market, where cost-effectiveness is the first and only priority.
Obviously, it would be impossible to determine the aftermath of financial collapse, should it ever happen. Would free trade be maintained? Or would nations go into head duty protectionism mode? It's highly possible that outsourcing would no longer be viable given whatever tariffs or taxes are implemented, but either way, I don't see radiology being a safe haven in times to come. If medical specialties were stocks, I think it's a no-brainer to short radiology (as well as many fields dependent on expensive, elective care), and buy long on primary care and general medicine/surgery.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Oh give me a break. There are around 27,000 practicing radiologists in the United States, population 300,000,000.

There are 6,000 radiologists in India, population 1,000,000,000. How many of them are board certified to practice in the USA, very few. Even if all 6000 of them became board certified and read the studies, their is no way they could read them all. In a highly specialized field like radiology, there is a limited global supply of radiologists. This limits the ability for outsourcing of radiology. This isn't some call center service field that anyone can do.

BTW, radiology is one of the most competitive specialties in India. My cousin is a radiologist in Mumbai, and his pad and lifestyle is better than that of radiologists in the USA. So they make pretty darn good money reading Indian films anyways.
Oh, I'm sorry. I need to brush up on my geography. I totally forgot that the world has only two countries - India and the US.

Tongue-in-cheek aside, it all depends on legislation, which is influenced by countless variables. The current medico-legal system of the US health care system maintains the role of American radiologists. If that were to change for whatever reason, it would simply depend on the principles of free trade. It doesn't really matter if there are shortages of radiologists in India, China, Brazil, etc. As long as the currency exchange and overall price/cost work in favor of outsourcing, it will happen. Let's not forget that there are many examples in history where countries with famines were net food exporters.
 
Interesting side note: One article I read mentioned that there is actually going to be a significant shortage of radiologists in the near future as the population ages and our medical system relies increasingly on imaging. I'm not an economist, but generally when there is a shortage of a product (us), the price (salary) goes up. (Obviously I'm ignoring the long term problems associated with a shortage, including loss of some turf)

I implore you to find a single specialty aside from pediatrics that doesn't say the same thing. Does that mean almost every specialty will see this supply/demand driven increase in compensation? Does that mean the country will spend even more than the current 17% of GDP on health care? I highly doubt it. I'm always wary about using free market principles on the business of medicine.
 
bronx43 I always enjoy your posts because it always highlights the ignorance of medical students everywhere particularly when it comes to radiology. From what I gather you are someone interested in PMR and as a result look at a lot of films/CT/MR and have developed or have been given the impression that you are actually "interpreting" those films, when in fact most of the time you are looking at them the patient already has a known pathology and you/your attendings and residents are just looking for poops and gigles. I sincerely doubt you have every discovered anything on a scan that wasn't already known.

People with minimal experience are really quick to discount radiology since it seems so easy. Having been on both sides of the reading room I can assure you that NO ONE is better at interpreting these than a radiologist. Will a general rads from poontown USA be as good as a stroke neurologist from MGH at looking at strokes, no. But invariable he will be able to pick up a mass in the neck or orbit better than that guy.

Will a pulmonologist treating a pt in the ICU find the pneumonia on CXR, sure. Will he find the 8 mm pulm nodule that will turn out to be bronchogenic carcinoma or see a subtle increase in the paratracheal soft tissues that turns out to be lymphoma, probably not.

As a surgery resident, with radiology training, even I am hesistant to make a call on something as simple as appendicitis/cholecystitis unless it is so blatantly obvious a med student would pick it up. The only people who would rely on their own interpretation are dangerous. An exception would be the IR guys doing UFE/Onc etc. And even if they do too much IR and are clinical, they will rely on the diagnostic guys. So when a guy who has done a 4 year residency in diagnostic radiology won't rely on his own interpretation what makes you think a specialist with cursory training in imaging is better suited to it?

You strike me as either some idealist or else a jaded person who could not match into a competitive specialty. I've got news for you friend, PCPs/Gen surgeons/hospitalists make a ton of money practicing in areas where they are needed. The fact is they are not needed in densely populated areas because there are so many specialists they are relegated to doing low reimbursed procedures.

Hospitalists salaries are upwards of $200K and they often only work 2 weeks on/2 weeks off. To be sure they work hard for those 2 weeks, but so does the private practice radiologist who reads 150 studies a day, including head to toe CTs.

The busiest days I had on ER radiology were at least as bad if not worse than any night of surgery call. And at least on surgery call if I can't figure out what's wrong with a patient I can get a CT scan (sorry rads guys).

Are rads salaries going to stay high? maybe/maybe not, are they at risk for outsourcing? maybe to telerad groups but from talking to my friends at my old residency program the ABR is trying to combat this commodification of radiology, but even if telerad groups take over all of radiology, about as likely as finding a cure for cancer, radiologists will still be needed to staff this.

Medicine is not trending back towards generalism, but towards further sub-specialization. Pts demand it
 
bronx43 I always enjoy your posts because it always highlights the ignorance of medical students everywhere particularly when it comes to radiology. From what I gather you are someone interested in PMR and as a result look at a lot of films/CT/MR and have developed or have been given the impression that you are actually "interpreting" those films, when in fact most of the time you are looking at them the patient already has a known pathology and you/your attendings and residents are just looking for poops and gigles. I sincerely doubt you have every discovered anything on a scan that wasn't already known.

People with minimal experience are really quick to discount radiology since it seems so easy. Having been on both sides of the reading room I can assure you that NO ONE is better at interpreting these than a radiologist. Will a general rads from poontown USA be as good as a stroke neurologist from MGH at looking at strokes, no. But invariable he will be able to pick up a mass in the neck or orbit better than that guy.

Will a pulmonologist treating a pt in the ICU find the pneumonia on CXR, sure. Will he find the 8 mm pulm nodule that will turn out to be bronchogenic carcinoma or see a subtle increase in the paratracheal soft tissues that turns out to be lymphoma, probably not.

As a surgery resident, with radiology training, even I am hesistant to make a call on something as simple as appendicitis/cholecystitis unless it is so blatantly obvious a med student would pick it up. The only people who would rely on their own interpretation are dangerous. An exception would be the IR guys doing UFE/Onc etc. And even if they do too much IR and are clinical, they will rely on the diagnostic guys. So when a guy who has done a 4 year residency in diagnostic radiology won't rely on his own interpretation what makes you think a specialist with cursory training in imaging is better suited to it?

You strike me as either some idealist or else a jaded person who could not match into a competitive specialty. I've got news for you friend, PCPs/Gen surgeons/hospitalists make a ton of money practicing in areas where they are needed. The fact is they are not needed in densely populated areas because there are so many specialists they are relegated to doing low reimbursed procedures.

Hospitalists salaries are upwards of $200K and they often only work 2 weeks on/2 weeks off. To be sure they work hard for those 2 weeks, but so does the private practice radiologist who reads 150 studies a day, including head to toe CTs.

The busiest days I had on ER radiology were at least as bad if not worse than any night of surgery call. And at least on surgery call if I can't figure out what's wrong with a patient I can get a CT scan (sorry rads guys).

Are rads salaries going to stay high? maybe/maybe not, are they at risk for outsourcing? maybe to telerad groups but from talking to my friends at my old residency program the ABR is trying to combat this commodification of radiology, but even if telerad groups take over all of radiology, about as likely as finding a cure for cancer, radiologists will still be needed to staff this.

Medicine is not trending back towards generalism, but towards further sub-specialization. Pts demand it
I'm flattered that you have at least taken note of my SN during your SDN browsing, and feel the need to psychoanalyze me. Your guess at my being an idealist vs a jaded student is inaccurate to say the least. I'm not your cookie cutter medical student hell-bent on matching into whichever specialty is well reimbursed at the moment. My educational background and first career was in business, and my post-MD goals are largely entrepreneurial as well.
As far as the value-add of a radiologist, I don't deny that board certified diagnostic guys are the best in interpreting images. Obviously, that would be the case given the specific nature of their training. My contention is in the role of the American radiologist in a contractionary market, given the financial precipice the nation is on. I rather not go into details about it here, but the cushy 17% of GDP that the health care industry is currently enjoying will be a forgotten dream some time in the future - sooner than later. And the demands of the patients will largely be a moot point, unless you're referring to a small percentage of the populace, capable of paying for the sub-specialization. I mean, I really rather not continue this discussion, since people here think I'm arguing within the context of the status quo. I'm not. And as I stated before, unsustainable is unsustainable, but the status quo usually has the ability to drag the show on for longer than expected.
 
Perhaps a new thread in the General Med Forum? Becase i am genuinely interested in this topic.
 
I'm flattered that you have at least taken note of my SN during your SDN browsing, and feel the need to psychoanalyze me. Your guess at my being an idealist vs a jaded student is inaccurate to say the least. I'm not your cookie cutter medical student hell-bent on matching into whichever specialty is well reimbursed at the moment. My educational background and first career was in business, and my post-MD goals are largely entrepreneurial as well.
As far as the value-add of a radiologist, I don't deny that board certified diagnostic guys are the best in interpreting images. Obviously, that would be the case given the specific nature of their training. My contention is in the role of the American radiologist in a contractionary market, given the financial precipice the nation is on. I rather not go into details about it here, but the cushy 17% of GDP that the health care industry is currently enjoying will be a forgotten dream some time in the future - sooner than later. And the demands of the patients will largely be a moot point, unless you're referring to a small percentage of the populace, capable of paying for the sub-specialization. I mean, I really rather not continue this discussion, since people here think I'm arguing within the context of the status quo. I'm not. And as I stated before, unsustainable is unsustainable, but the status quo usually has the ability to drag the show on for longer than expected.

You should continue posting! It's very rare to see someone with a broad knowledge in the American economy applying it to the field of medicine. Your posts so far have been logical and I have learned some new things :thumbup:
 
If medical specialties were stocks, I think it's a no-brainer to short radiology (as well as many fields dependent on expensive, elective care), and buy long on primary care and general medicine/surgery.

There will be further subspecialization and increased use of NPs and PAs (as well as podiatry & physical therapy (vs. ortho or PM&R), optometry,CRNAS, and other physician extenders). I think there will be increased reliance on physician extenders in a lot of the fields, especially to fill the gap in primary care. They can do the same health maintenance and screening (and ordering radiology exams, blood work) , just as well (80-90% of the time, referring the other stuff out), with less training, for cheaper. It doesn't take 11 years (undergrad, medschool, residency) to be able to feel a large prostate, order a PSA, MRI/CT/US, and surg/onc consult... This is not true in radiology. Practically no other extender (or other physician), can do the radiologist's job as well.
 
Last edited:
Oh, I'm sorry. I need to brush up on my geography. I totally forgot that the world has only two countries - India and the US.

Tongue-in-cheek aside, it all depends on legislation, which is influenced by countless variables. The current medico-legal system of the US health care system maintains the role of American radiologists. If that were to change for whatever reason, it would simply depend on the principles of free trade. It doesn't really matter if there are shortages of radiologists in India, China, Brazil, etc. As long as the currency exchange and overall price/cost work in favor of outsourcing, it will happen. Let's not forget that there are many examples in history where countries with famines were net food exporters.

It's not just India. There is a limited global supply of radiologists. The same principle badasshairday mentions still applies.

"We discuss teleradiology and medical image reconstruction from the
perspectives of both India and its client countries. Radiology is an "extreme" professional service with extensive usage of tacit rather than codified knowledge. The importance of tacit knowledge leads to long training periods, a limited global supply of radiologists and heavy government regulation, all of which are obstacles to a "flat world". Computerization of low-end diagnostic radiology ultimately poses a bigger threat to the profession than offshoring.

http://web.mit.edu/flevy/www/indian_rad.pdf : The conclusion sums things up nicely:


"Most of the answer lies in supply and demand. "The world is flat" is a story about
large numbers of developing country workers who can do industrialized country jobs at
much lower wages. 44 In today's economy, there are three reasons why this story has
particular force for back-office services and manufacturing jobs:

•Much of the work in these jobs involves rules-based tasks that can be easily
taught. This makes the assumption about large numbers of developing country
workers realistic.

•The rules-based nature of the work makes output quality easy to determine and so
markets for back office services and manufactured goods are typically lightly
regulated. The lack of regulation eliminates a possible barrier to offshoring the
work."

•Because much of the work is rules-based, workers in both developed and
developing countries face competition from computerized work. Domestic and
offshore workers are competing with each other in a declining market for labor. 45

For the moment, diagnostic radiology satisfies none of these conditions. Because the
work rests on pattern recognition and extensive tacit knowledge, it requires expensive,
multi-year training in every country. As a result, relatively few people world-wide are
capable of doing the work and the supply is not increasing very fast.
Because tacit
knowledge (i.e. unarticulated rules) is so important, radiologists currently face no
computer substitution and, in fact, the opposite is true: radiologists are an indispensable
complement to computerized medical imaging, and rapid advances in imaging expand
demand for radiologists' services. The result is a tight labor market for radiologists –
expanding demand and restricted supply – that is the mirror image of the global labor
market for factory and back office workers.


Within this tight labor market, wages do differ significantly across countries. Because
most radiologists are concentrated in high wage countries and supplies in any country can
change only slowly, an unregulated global radiology market would increase Indian wages
more than it would lower U.S. and E.U. wages.
But full convergence is purely
hypothetical since, again unlike factory or back office work, the radiology market is
heavily regulated. The regulations have a public purpose – a way for consumers to
determine professional competence when the cost of incompetence is high. But the
regulations also serve to restrict competition within and across countries. Because
radiologists provide healthcare, a politically charged product, teleradiology can stimulate
public opposition as well. In client countries, patients may protest the use of foreign-
trained doctors. In a sending country like India, people may object if the limited number
of Indian radiologists serves foreign markets rather than medical needs at home."


...

"But even in the Singapore case, market disruption from offshoring [radiology] will not
be very large – the limited world supply of radiologists ensures that."
 
Last edited:
Medical imaging: Outsourced radiology: will doctors be deskilled?
BMJ 337:(Published 11 August 2008)
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a785.full

"The biggest obstacle [in teleradiology] is not having free access to old scans, blood tests, past medical history, and discharge summaries," he said. "[Radiologists] cannot claim teleradiology reports are similar quality to those of in-house radiologists if they don't have access to the rest of the information."

"The lack of integration also means that teleradiology can be time consuming and more expensive than it appears. Administration staff may be left to send the digital images to the teleradiologist. They must then also fax the request form, which means that the receiving radiologist is given only what someone at the sending site thinks is necessary and appropriate. Any additional information needed must then be requested by the teleradiologist. The process of sending the reports back has much the same drawbacks."

Dr Yates went further: "For every one hour of a doctor's time saved, you needed two hours of clerical time to support the service." There is typically no way to integrate the computerised report from the teleradiologist into the system of the initiating site. In practice this means another set of emails or faxes, which must then be transcribed or copied into the system electronically—with the added disadvantage that the interpreting radiologist is unable to see and therefore approve the final copy.

...

The legal aspects of teleradiology can also cause headaches"
 
Last edited:
Top