My first ethical dilemma

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TJ1680

TJ
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I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on this.

I was in clinic with a surgical attending at my school last week and we had a very high profile (as in world famous) person come in as a patient. He came after everyone else had gone - I hung around for the learning experience and met this person, introduced myself. But here's my question. Not that I was going to do it (I'm not a huge fan or anything), but, since I've just begun 3rd year and am still feeling out the culture, I asked my resident "would it be inappropriate to ask for his autograph?" He said "yes, it would be."
I didn't want to argue the point, since he was my senior resident, but WHY? I always thought it never hurts to ask. People can always refuse if they're uncomfortable. I mean, obviously if you happen to have a famous patient who is in some kind of crisis and the first thing you do when you go in is to ask for their autograph then that's inappropriate. But seeing them in clinic for a follow-up visit?
What do you guys think?
 
If that's your biggest ethical dilemna in life, you can relax. 🙄
 
TJ1680 said:
But seeing them in clinic for a follow-up visit?
What do you guys think?

It would have been tacky. You have a doctor-patient (or medical student-patient) relationship with the person, not a celebrity-fan relationship. Reverse roles in your own mind. Would you like someone to ask for your autograph if you were seeking private services such as healthcare? I know that I would not.
 
I probably would have wanted to ask for an autograph too!
 
Boy, it's a good thing you are not doing any rotations in a NYC hospital. As often as I have encountered "celebrity" patients, you would be embarrassing yourself quite frequently by asking for their autographs. Sorry kid, bad idea 🙁
 
I think no autograph is definately the best policy. I understand that the person was famous and they should expect this reaction but I think it would be better to get to know them as a patient and later in life you could say you saw them as a patient (without revealing why of course). If people don't believe you oh well at least you know the truth. I think this would be more professional and human than running around like Jack McFarland chasing down Kevin Bacon. We are all people and we all put our pants on the same way (although my daughter likes to stick both of her feet in and jump to pull them up). 🙂
 
This reminds me of the doctor that had asked a now-deceased Beatle member (ringo starr?) for an autograph. I think this doctor was caring for him when he had cancer (which is what he died of). The doctor subsequently thought it would be okay to sell this autograph, and the family of the Beatle sued him. The family had argued that the physician had asked for this autograph at a time when the Beatle was in a compromised position (he was sick with cancer). The family won, and the physican had to hand over the autograph.

Anyhow, IMHO it is quite wrong to solicit an autograph from a patient. The patient is seeking healthcare, and asking for an autograph in such a situation is tactless since the patient should be viewed as a person and not a celebrity in such an encounter.
 
You should restrict your interaction to the patient-doctor relationship only. I was in a situation once where a woman had just gotten a lung cancer diagnosis. The surgery fellow who was seeing her looked at her chart, found out where she worked, and was trying to network with her to get a job for his wife at the patient's company. It was so embarrassing for me and obviously really uncomfortable for the patient. The patient didn't even know what to say - she just found out she has lung cancer and this guy is trying to weasel a job for his wife. Completely inept and unprofessional. I think asking your patient for an autograph falls in the same category.
 
pikachu said:
You should restrict your interaction to the patient-doctor relationship only. I was in a situation once where a woman had just gotten a lung cancer diagnosis. The surgery fellow who was seeing her looked at her chart, found out where she worked, and was trying to network with her to get a job for his wife at the patient's company. It was so embarrassing for me and obviously really uncomfortable for the patient. The patient didn't even know what to say - she just found out she has lung cancer and this guy is trying to weasel a job for his wife. Completely inept and unprofessional. I think asking your patient for an autograph falls in the same category.

That is absolutely awful 😡
 
TJ1680 said:
I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on this.

I was in clinic with a surgical attending at my school last week and we had a very high profile (as in world famous) person come in as a patient. He came after everyone else had gone - I hung around for the learning experience and met this person, introduced myself. But here's my question. Not that I was going to do it (I'm not a huge fan or anything), but, since I've just begun 3rd year and am still feeling out the culture, I asked my resident "would it be inappropriate to ask for his autograph?" He said "yes, it would be."
I didn't want to argue the point, since he was my senior resident, but WHY? I always thought it never hurts to ask. People can always refuse if they're uncomfortable. I mean, obviously if you happen to have a famous patient who is in some kind of crisis and the first thing you do when you go in is to ask for their autograph then that's inappropriate. But seeing them in clinic for a follow-up visit?
What do you guys think?

You are a student. My suggestion don't ask. I wouldn't, it can land you in more trouble than you like.
 
daisygirl said:
This reminds me of the doctor that had asked a now-deceased Beatle member (ringo starr?) for an autograph. I think this doctor was caring for him when he had cancer (which is what he died of).

That would be George Harrison (if any one of the Beatles). Ringo Starr and Sir Paul McCartney are both alive and well. John Lennon and George Harrison aren't.
 
Yes, I think it is unprofessional for a student to ask for an autograph. But I know plenty of physicians who have treated famous patients and have signed memorabilia in their office. I guess it is different when you are an attending and you build a better rapport with the patient.
 
Wouldn't it be a HIPAA violation anyway? You'd never be able to show the autograph to anyone.
 
labangel said:
Wouldn't it be a HIPAA violation anyway? You'd never be able to show the autograph to anyone.
Simply having the autograph wouldn't be. Heck, telling you got it from the celebrity in the hospital might not be. PHI only extends to specific health information, n'est pas?
 
aphistis said:
Simply having the autograph wouldn't be. Heck, telling you got it from the celebrity in the hospital might not be. PHI only extends to specific health information, n'est pas?
It's '' n'est-ce pas ?'' 😉
You'll thank me the day you'll seduce a french chick with your incredibly high level of culture 👍
 
Blake said:
It's '' n'est-ce pas ?'' 😉
You'll thank me the day you'll seduce a french chick with your incredibly high level of culture 👍
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="n'est+pas"

You might want to share your "incredibly high level of culture" with the other 16.7 million folks who think "n'est pas" is just fine. Till then, keep your smug condescension. I don't need it.
 
aphistis said:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="n'est+pas"

You might want to share your "incredibly high level of culture" with the other 16.7 million folks who think "n'est pas" is just fine. Till then, keep your smug condescension. I don't need it.
Wow, talk about a post gone wrong.

1) French is my first language and it's ''n'est-ce pas''. But then again, what do I know 🙄 Here's a google link, since it might mean more to you than my experience with the french language (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="n'est-ce+pas"&btnG=Search) I expect you to tell me I'm wrong, I know. It's not the first time some guy told me a french word mispelled in google was the best way of spelling it, despite the fact that he knew absolutely nothing of the language. I just can't compete against the greatness of google. :laugh:

2) I was honestly trying to make you learn the proper way of saying it. SDN sure is special...

3) Learn how to take a joke from time to time. Geez !👎
 
In that case, I appreciate your effort. Sarcasm tends to get amplified over the internet, but you might think about making your jokes a little less smug.
 
aphistis said:
In that case, I appreciate your effort. Sarcasm tends to get amplified over the internet, but you might think about making your jokes a little less smug.
Smug ? 😕 *looks in the dictionary*
 
Wow, aphistis, did you have a bad day? That guy was obviously making light (whole seducing a french chick) adn it certainly didn't seem SMUG.

and thousands of people used to think the world was flat, didn't mean they were right.


To th OP: I think the census is that its just tacky.
 
roja said:
Wow, aphistis, did you have a bad day? That guy was obviously making light (whole seducing a french chick) adn it certainly didn't seem SMUG.

and thousands of people used to think the world was flat, didn't mean they were right.


To th OP: I think the census is that its just tacky.
Yes, actually, but that shouldn't really enter into anything. Apparently I'm just the only one too dense to get the joke. Sorry.
 
roja said:
and thousands of people used to think the world was flat, didn't mean they were right.

I think the point here is that a google search of "n'est pas" turns up over 16 million *correct* usages of the phrase, because it's the way you would say "is not" in French. "N'est-ce pas?" translates roughly to "is it not?" E.g. "This is not a pen" vs. "This petty argument is silly, is it not?"

Google results:
"is not" 53M
"is it not?" 1.8M
ratio 30:1
"n'est pas" 18M
"n'est-ce pas" 0.8M
ratio 23:1

Which implies that the French use n'est-ce pas relatively more than we use is it not, which seems to fit with my understanding of both languages--n'est-ce pas is common in French but is it not is a little stuffy in English.

Egads, I can't believe I just spent time on this!

--Ari
 
linuxizer said:
I think the point here is that a google search of "n'est pas" turns up over 16 million *correct* usages of the phrase, because it's the way you would say "is not" in French. "N'est-ce pas?" translates roughly to "is it not?" E.g. "This is not a pen" vs. "This petty argument is silly, is it not?"

Google results:
"is not" 53M
"is it not?" 1.8M
ratio 30:1
"n'est pas" 18M
"n'est-ce pas" 0.8M
ratio 23:1

Which implies that the French use n'est-ce pas relatively more than we use is it not, which seems to fit with my understanding of both languages--n'est-ce pas is common in French but is it not is a little stuffy in English.

Egads, I can't believe I just spent time on this!

--Ari
Actually, ''n'est-ce pas'' = '' isn't it '', which is often used in English. '' is it not ' just sounds weird, and I'm sure most people don't use this.
 
TJ1680 said:
I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on this.

I was in clinic with a surgical attending at my school last week and we had a very high profile (as in world famous) person come in as a patient. He came after everyone else had gone - I hung around for the learning experience and met this person, introduced myself. But here's my question. Not that I was going to do it (I'm not a huge fan or anything), but, since I've just begun 3rd year and am still feeling out the culture, I asked my resident "would it be inappropriate to ask for his autograph?" He said "yes, it would be."
I didn't want to argue the point, since he was my senior resident, but WHY? I always thought it never hurts to ask. People can always refuse if they're uncomfortable. I mean, obviously if you happen to have a famous patient who is in some kind of crisis and the first thing you do when you go in is to ask for their autograph then that's inappropriate. But seeing them in clinic for a follow-up visit?
What do you guys think?

The reason it is wrong is that you are to give your patient the best care possible, and that includes making them comfortable enough with you that they can feel OK giving a complete history, etc. By asking for an autograph, you can allow the thought to enter the patient's mind that he HAS to give you that autograph to get the best care. That discomfort can cause a patient to do something he doesn't want to do, mistrust you, or any number of things that will compromise his care.

And yes, I wish for you that this is the worst dillema you have in medicine.

--DT
 
Blake said:
Actually, ''n'est-ce pas'' = '' isn't it '', which is often used in English. '' is it not ' just sounds weird, and I'm sure most people don't use this.

Good call. I'm of the stuffy variety of folk who still uses "is it not?" along with my Southern "ain't it?"s. Certainly a character flaw.
--Ari
 
It is my understanding that under HIPAA, you're not even supposed to reveal that someone is your patient, so it wouldn't be okay to say that you met someone when they were in the clinic, or to have their autograph on your wall for other patients to infer that you had treated them.
 
Blake said:
... French is my first language and it's ''n'est-ce pas''...

French is my first language too. Blake is right.

OP, getting an autograph from a patient is tacky. But I did see Mike Tyson at Gucci in NYC, but I didn't get his autograph. Had I, I would have sold it.

-S
 
principessa said:
It is my understanding that under HIPAA, you're not even supposed to reveal that someone is your patient, so it wouldn't be okay to say that you met someone when they were in the clinic, or to have their autograph on your wall for other patients to infer that you had treated them.

You are absolutely right - this has happened before on SDN.

However, if you were to have an autograph in your office, that is just that (ie, not with "Thanks for getting me out when I was stuck in my zipper!", or "Wow -who knew overdose could be so fun??"), there is nothing that says it was obtained in the office/at work. If someone was to ask you if that person was a patient, the proper answer is to say that you can't say (or you could lie and say, "no"). Of course, this is contingent on a person being able to say convincingly "I can't say", versus the idiotic and cutesy "wink and nod" "I can't say", which is a tacit yes.
 
Who cares about celebrities such as actors/sports people-they are nothing special.
Limit payouts to athletes at 200,000$/yr for best players, 100,000$/yr for average players.
Note a significant percentage of these 'models' to society have not graduated highschool and/or were 'carried' through college.

However if you were to seek a photo with or autograph of the late Gandhi or Mother Theresa, etc., I will cheer you on.

As other posters said, you would be embarassing yourself seeking autographs from celebrities and worse embarassing the profession! So put your pen away and pick up the stethoscope.
:meanie: :meanie: :meanie: :meanie: :meanie: :meanie: :meanie:
 
Since that original posting, I had the opportunity to work with a different attending. Someone else mentioned doctors having signed memorabilia up in their office. I didn't ask, but just like when you go into a restaurant and see an autographed picture of Mike Ditka it implies that he ate there, I think the autographed picture of Arnold Palmer and baseball signed by the White Sox in this attending's office implied some sort of doctor-patient connection. It is, in fact, widely known that this attending takes care of several white sox players.
All I'm saying is, I don't think there's an ethical question here. Call it tacky, call it embarrassing, call it distasteful - it may be all of those things. I didn't ask for this person's autograph for all of those reasons. But I think that's different from it being unethical. If something is unethical it's wrong for everyone. I don't consider it to be just my opinion that drunk driving is wrong, I think it really is wrong - independent of what I think and idenpendent of anyone's "taste." That's why we have consequences for when people do it. But we are supposed to live in a society where people are allowed to have differing opinions on taste. I think in this case it's ok to judge someone's actions to be distasteful, but to say it's unethical is to say they really shouldn't do it - as if it's some injury to you or to society if they do. Some people may consider The O'Reilly Factor to be distasteful. That's fine to have that opinion. That's different from saying he should be taken off the air.
 
daisygirl said:
This reminds me of the doctor that had asked a now-deceased Beatle member (ringo starr?) for an autograph.

Ringo is not dead. It irks me when people name others and talk about them as if they're dead without any knowledge whatsoever. The least you could have done was google.com it. Better luck with knowing if your future patients are alive or dead!

(Anyways, it was George Harrison, and yes, it reminded me of that as well!)

Nevertheless, If it were someone I truly admired, and not just any old celebrity, I would definitely want to talk to the person. Medicine is not all about science, it's also a very social thing and it's important to be able to talk to people. So, if people are too scared to ask for an autograph, it is either because 1) they don't truly care for the celebrity in terms of impact, and 2) that they realize that they would only be asking for the autograph for the sake of bragging about it. They would be using the celebrity patient as a means to that end. I wonder what Kant would say about that...

So, if it were someone I repected, you could be sure the autograph would be tertiary to that person's health, which is always primary. But I would not be afraid to ask for an autograph if I did happen to make a connection. As long as it's not all you want out of that person, and as long as you're not taking any extra energy from that person who may truly need it. Some people would be glad to sign an autograph, and I'm not afraid to ask. You need to have more confidence in yourself and a better understanding of your motivations. Some people would always be haters, so to speak, and look at what you did negatively, because not all people are in touch with themselves in that respect, and may be projecting, and then perceiving their own negative perceptions in a vicious redundancy in order to mollify their jealous egos.
 
Ringo is not dead. It irks me when people name others and talk about them as if they're dead without any knowledge whatsoever. The least you could have done was google.com it. Better luck with knowing if your future patients are alive or dead!

I did put Ringo's name in parentheses with a question mark since I wasn't sure if I was referring to the wrong Beatle. Anyhow, Apollyon already pointed out my error, so I'm not sure why you felt that it was so necessary to once again point out that I had made a mistake.

Your reply was quite obnoxious. I am quite impressed with your analysis too- comparing my stupid mistake to the care that I may (or may not according to you) provide my patients. Give me a break 🙄 .
 
fruit fly said:
Ringo is not dead. It irks me when people name others and talk about them as if they're dead without any knowledge whatsoever. The least you could have done was google.com it. Better luck with knowing if your future patients are alive or dead!

Way, WAY too harsh, dude.

You're much more Puritanical than piratical (it's a word), despite your self-assessment - do web sites like this or this offend your prudish nature? The comment of knowing if future patients are alive or dead is fatuous and venal.
 
Apollyon said:
Way, WAY too harsh, dude.

You're much more Puritanical than piratical (it's a word), despite your self-assessment - do web sites like this or this offend your prudish nature? The comment of knowing if future patients are alive or dead is fatuous and venal.

Crummy use of the word venal, Apollyon. I expected better from you!

And on that note, let me say that I don't feel as though I was being harsh. I think it's a shame when people don't take the time to visit those websites of yours and know what they are talking about, before playing a guessing game, speculating about somebody else's life or death.

It is also quite fatuous that you consider me "puritanical".
 
daisygirl said:
I did put Ringo's name in parentheses with a question mark since I wasn't sure if I was referring to the wrong Beatle. Anyhow, Apollyon already pointed out my error, so I'm not sure why you felt that it was so necessary to once again point out that I had made a mistake.

Your reply was quite obnoxious. I am quite impressed with your analysis too- comparing my stupid mistake to the care that I may (or may not according to you) provide my patients. Give me a break 🙄 .

Nice signature. Perhaps I should be studying too.

Anyway, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to that analysis of your blunder, as everyone would stand to benefit if I am indeed wrong. Nevertheless, I shouldn't have extrapolated so much on one boneheaded error of yours to have made such a judgement. I apologize.
 
Not to inject politics into the discussion, but perhaps the OP can help me out with a question I've always had:


Assuming your "famous" patient was rich (which famous people usually-- but not always-- are), how do they pay for the services rendered? I've always wondered about this as it pertains to professional athletes, like say when they need an operation done on their knee or some such-- do they pay in cash/check, or do they hand over an insurance card? One would think that with their multiple millions of dollars, they'd pay a fee for the service, but something tells me that even they would use insurance co's as a proxy. Any ideas? Does anyone else have any insight about this from personal experience?


For what it's worth, I think it's absolutely disgusting that a multimillionaire (not just athletes, but anybody) can be covered by insurance barring some catastrophic illness (like, say, being in a coma for a few years and it costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, in which case it might be understandable). But anyway, that's just me...
 
CJMPre-Med said:
For what it's worth, I think it's absolutely disgusting that a multimillionaire (not just athletes, but anybody) can be covered by insurance barring some catastrophic illness (like, say, being in a coma for a few years and it costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, in which case it might be understandable). But anyway, that's just me...



You have got to be kidding me, you don't think that millionaires should be able to have insurance? One of the reasons why most millionaires are where they are at is because they make sound financial decisions unlike the average crack ***** who just sponges off of the system. These same millionaires are many times the people who are providing jobs for dozens of employees and they are the same people who pay the majority of the taxes collected in this country, but they shouldn't be entitled to the same resources as the people they employ and their crack addict, indigent cousins. To say that they should not be allowed to have insurance is rediculous and believe me, insurance companies are not in the business of losing money and if millionaires cost them more than they take in, they wouldn't be able to get insurance.




And to the OP, I agree with your resident. You have a professional relationship with your patients, you are not friends. Once they start inviting you to dinner you can ask for an autograph. I have a feeling that the majority of signed memorabilia in physicians offices were sent without a request as a thank you.
 
TucsonDDS said:
You have got to be kidding me, you don't think that millionaires should be able to have insurance? One of the reasons why most millionaires are where they are at is because they make sound financial decisions unlike the average crack ***** who just sponges off of the system. These same millionaires are many times the people who are providing jobs for dozens of employees and they are the same people who pay the majority of the taxes collected in this country, but they shouldn't be entitled to the same resources as the people they employ and their crack addict, indigent cousins. To say that they should not be allowed to have insurance is rediculous and believe me, insurance companies are not in the business of losing money and if millionaires cost them more than they take in, they wouldn't be able to get insurance.




And to the OP, I agree with your resident. You have a professional relationship with your patients, you are not friends. Once they start inviting you to dinner you can ask for an autograph. I have a feeling that the majority of signed memorabilia in physicians offices were sent without a request as a thank you.

I agree. As much as I am not a fan of very rich people and believe that they could fend for themselves, I do believe that there are basic human rights when it comes to capitalism- and insurance I consider a human right. Celebrities need insurance just like anyone else.

But it could go overboard, for instance, J-Lo having insurance on her booty.
:laugh:
 
But what a booty it is!!
 
TucsonDDS said:
But what a booty it is!!

I wonder what algorithms the actuary used to make those calculations on how much she needs to pay...

:laugh:
 
I'll bet she pays a lot.
 
fruit fly said:
I wonder what algorithms the actuary used to make those calculations on how much she needs to pay...

:laugh:

But those are business insurance investments, not health - there was a comedian/movie actor from 80 years ago - Ben Turpin - who had crossed eyes, and, as a gag, had them insured by Lloyd's of London in case they uncrossed; however, the policy was legitimate (and never needed to be paid out on).

In the UK, rich and poor alike use the NHS: the rich tend to buy insurance to supplement - not replace - the scheme.

Does anyone remember some 6 years ago, when Shaquille O'Neal spent $7000 on lottery tickets?
 
I once treated a princess (from the middle east). She was a complete b*tch. She paid cash for her treatment. I don't think asking for an autograph is appropriate...kinda like asking for an autograph at a urinal. Famous people don't always like being famous, and I would HATE being approached for an autograph when I was in the hospital.
 
GeneGoddess said:
I once treated a princess (from the middle east). She was a complete b*tch. She paid cash for her treatment. I don't think asking for an autograph is appropriate...kinda like asking for an autograph at a urinal. Famous people don't always like being famous, and I would HATE being approached for an autograph when I was in the hospital.

I was told that, twice at our hospital, royalty from the middle east skipped out on their bill; this was unsuspected, because they were lavishing gifts on everyone (including paying for the entire wedding of one nurse, for one visit).
 
TucsonDDS said:
You have got to be kidding me, you don't think that millionaires should be able to have insurance? One of the reasons why most millionaires are where they are at is because they make sound financial decisions unlike the average crack ***** who just sponges off of the system. These same millionaires are many times the people who are providing jobs for dozens of employees and they are the same people who pay the majority of the taxes collected in this country, but they shouldn't be entitled to the same resources as the people they employ and their crack addict, indigent cousins. To say that they should not be allowed to have insurance is rediculous and believe me, insurance companies are not in the business of losing money and if millionaires cost them more than they take in, they wouldn't be able to get insurance.

Err, your overly aggressive pro-capitalism ramblings aside, allow me to say that I didn't mean that multi-millionaires shouldn't be allowed to have insurance per se, just that I find it unethical that people who can more than afford to pay for a service rendered are able to utilize third party payors who then pay 30-50% of the cost for the service (if that). If a person earns $80K per year, they should have to pay out of pocket ~$2500-3000 per year before their insurance picks up the tab for the rest of the year; for one making $3M per year, that out of pocket deductible should be on the order of $300-400K (should they avail themselves of $300K worth of medical services in a single year, which is exceedingly rare). After all, one can't commission an architect to build one a home, and then only pay a fraction of the asking price after it has been constructed, correct? This is the injustice that insurance companies regularly inflict on physicians and hospitals, and it is the reason for the ever-increasing insolvency of our healthcare institutions.


Those who can afford to pay for healthcare should be made to, up to a sensible amount based on their income, with catastrophic coverage picking up the rest (note: this was the dominant paradigm for decades in the US; during this era, self-reported customer satisfaction with health care was highest, as contrasted with what we have today); fully subsidized care paid for by proxies (i.e., insurance companies, gov't etc.) should only be made available for the truly needy.


In no other field and for no other service is this notion of third party payors considered acceptable-- why do you think that is? Point to the "unique" and "important" nature of health care as a service, and I can just as easily make the argument that if it's so "important", then someone earning $3M per year should be made to pay a deductible out of pocket for it before they buy another Ferrari. After all, isn't one's health more important than a car or another vacation or summer home? Think about what you're saying-- just don't come crying to me in 15 years when the entire nation's health care infrastructure is decimated due to insolvency because folks like you refused even the most sensible of measures being implemented in the health care field vis-a-vis payment for services rendered.


The portents of that future are all around you-- ignore it at your peril.
 
I am not saying that insurance reform isn't needed but saying that insurance shouldn't be given to the rich is just plain stupid. The amount of money that insurance companies pay out for multimillionaires is a very small percentage (I would guess well less than .5%) compared to what it pays out for the working class and the class of people that just don't work, don't pay anything into social security, don't pay taxes, don't pay for health care that they do receive and don't bother to even worry about their own health. These are the people that are placing the burden on the health care system, as well as the welfare system, the public schools and just about every other aspect of this nations economy, not the extremely small percentage of the population that are making 7 figures a year. I would guess that multimillionaires cost the insurance companies less than the average person due to the fact that they are more likely to schedule a $100 appointment with their doctor over a cough than call 911 on their $50 a month cell phone, get a $700 ambulance ride into the ER and then wring up a $1000 bill at the ER, all because they were too cheep or too stupid to pay the $10 copay for their kids albuterol inhaler. When you talk about the glory days before insurance you talk about a time when the majority of the population were happy to work and took pride in that fact. These times are much different today. And if you think that hospitals loose money on the insurance companies, think again. Hospitals negotiate their prices with insurance companies as well as the doctors prior to accepting any patients. These negotiated prices are what the hospital feels are necessary to stay in business. The problem comes when people on federal systems like medicare, medicaide and state funded aid programs come into the hospital and those programs don't negotiate with the hospitals. These governmental aid programs are what is putting the sqeeze on the hospitals, along with all of the uninsured patients that walk through their doors. It is not the multimillionairs that are putting the hospitals and insurance companies out of business. I think that you have been listenning to a little too much liberal talk and you read too much pro Kerry propaganda. The problems with the governments budget is due to the fact that millionaires aren't paying their taxes, it is due to the millions of people not contributing to the economy.
 
#1: I never said that the rich were the ones placing the majority of the burden on our health care institutions and providers. I'm not an idiot-- I know better than to say something that silly. Reread what I said if you need clarification.


#2: Your point about hospitals negotiating prices w/insurance companies is patently false. Most insurance companies base their fee schedules off of what medicare pays (say, "medicare + 20%" for instance); therefore, shrinking gov't reimbursements (including the trend towards paying a fee "per situation" rather than for each individual test/day spent in the hospital/doctor visit etc.) adversely affects ALL providers due to private insurance's reliance on those reimbursement rates to determine their own payouts. The situation is even more dire for private physicians, as insurance companies use their market clout (having a huge subscriber base) to dictate rates to physicians. Hospitals can circumvent this somewhat, but you're insane if you don't believe that declining reimbursements by medicare, medicaid, and YES, private insurance companies, are contributing to the growing insolvency of hospitals around the country (to say nothing of private practitioners).


#3: You completely miss the larger point I made, which is that it is entirely UNETHICAL to have this "third party payor" system at all. Period. It is unethical in the practical sense in which our societal ethics have developed to include the notion of bartering and fee for service, yet here we have a situation where that pivotal social relationship is being encroached upon-- this holds for all of industry and labor. In no other field is the notion of third party payors entertained, and nobody has EVER given me a reason why it should be allowed for health care except as a necessary evil when people cannot afford to pay for the services rendered. Let me ask you, can you go to an accountant who charges $90/hour to do your taxes and then tell him, "oh, you know what? I have this friend, and they're gonna pay you $40- that should be enough for you, right?"-- this is completely unacceptable in ANY other sphere, and nobody has ever shown me, philosophically, why health care should be any different. If it's because health care is more "important" than these other areas, then that's all the more reason that people should be willing to pay into it what they can afford, within reason, as opposed to spending that money on luxuries. Secondly, it is unethical because of the ethical dilemmas it creates for providers, who now are beholden to the interests of the payors rather than the patients; this is NOT a trivial issue, and we see it play itself out daily in hospitals and in doctor's offices around the nation when physicians and hospitals try to cut back their services-- even to the detriment of the patient's health-- due to pressure from insurance companies and government. This is an entirely improper (and largely unnecessary) situation that benefits NOBODY (except the private insurance companies, who reap record profits, and whose CEO's earn $15M+ per annum).


#4: You are entirely mistaken when you say that "the problems with the governments budget is (not) due to the fact that millionaires aren't paying their taxes, it is due to the millions of people not contributing to the economy." This is patently false. To analyze such a comment fully would take me far too long (I have finals this week). Allow me to point out, however, that a NYT report stated that 95% of US-based corporations and 40% of foreign-based corporations pay no income tax at all (wouldn't we be in jail if we did this?). The IRS estimates the tax revenue lost due to this to be in the neighborhood of $60-90 billion per year. Further, the IRS estimates that tax revenue lost due to corporate offshore banking to be between $40-65 billion per year; the number for personal offshore tax evasion is on the order of $20-35 billion per year. Clearly some of these numbers may overlap, but the general picture is crystal clear: the United States loses roughly $100 billion per year (if not much more) to such chicanery, all of which is done by the "very rich" that you so nobly insist do no wrong and have no effect on our budgets. With that money, you could provide insurance for all the supposed "44 million uninsured" in the US, as well as fund various social programs and infrastructure repairs. Yes, I'm fully aware that the mega-rich pay a larger percentage of the tax burden, but what is often glossed over is that A) the percentage of the WEALTH that they possess is much higher than the percentage they pay in taxes, proportionally, and B) they are breaking the rules (i.e., committing illegal acts) by engaging in such praxis re: tax evasion, personal and corporate. So please don't try to sit there and absolve our uber-rich of any culpability for the state this nation finds itself in. Yes, the poor have their own issues, and I will get around to addressing these in my next post later on in the week. Just please don't try to sit there and tell me that these rich folks and fortune 500 companies are necessarily a "net good" for our society, because that is highly debatable.


More later in the week after finals.
 
To CJM

#1 OK, you have me there

#2 Hospitals around the country as well as private practitioners reutinely choose the insurance plans that they are willing to accept. They chose these plans based on the patient population base and reimbursement. People in many of these plans however are the ones affected because the contracts between the hospitals and the private practitioners are constantly changing. I have had to change my childrens pediatritions due to the fact that they no longer accepted the insurance that my wife and I carry. I am not insane and I do agree with you that the lack of reimbursement from insurance companies is a definite concern with most hospitals but an even higher concern is the lack of reimbursement from private pay patients. The patients without insurance tnat refuse payment are a much greater loss to hospitals. Hospitals would be in hog-heaven if they could collect just the 50c on the dollar that the charge the insurance companies. This %50 reimbursement does allow the hospitals to function with a profit large enough to cover the non-payments.

#3 I agree to some extent. Unfortunately it is a necessary evil. If it cost $200 for a well baby check I don't know of too many families that would/could afford it. It is hard enough to get people to stop complaining about their 10 or 20 dollar copays. And I don't know too many doctors that will do it for for 10 or 20 dollars. I do agree 100% that you should not be able to barter for services. Unfortunately this is neccessary also for the insurance companies to work at a profit acceptable to the shareholders. It is this same bartering that increases the costs for the private pay patients. It is against the law for a hospital to bill a private individual a lower price for service than it bills an insurance company, unfortunately the insurance company already has contracts in place with the hospitals with a set fee schedule. This leaves the private pay patient with a hospital bill that is often times 50 or 100% inflated compared to the actual cost of care. Will the hospitals accept lower payment from an individual, yes many times but many times they would rather send you to collections for the rest. I do also agree with you that many times care is jepordized by insurance companies idea of what is "necessary" but remember, people always are able to have the test, procedure done if they are willing to pay for it, at full price, as you seem to think is more fair and ethical. It is just people usually are not willing. If you don't believe that private practitioners can decide their own repayment simply call around and see how many are actively accepting new medicare patients, and then ask them if they will accept a private pay.

#4 Although I don't have any figures in front of me (I will look) I seriously doubt that 95% of US corporations pay no corporate taxes. Even if that is the case, these corporations are supplying jobs and providing insurance for millions of americans in addition to providing a product that stimulates the US economy and in many cases is available for export. I agree with you though that these companies and individuals should not be funneling money off shore illegally, and if they are they should be punished accordingly. And for you saying that the rich don't pay their share of taxes, the top 1 percent of earners in this country pay around 35% of the total taxes. Here is an email that I got the other day. Now don't ask me if I can verify the information but I have no reason to doubt it.

How we pay income taxes.

Kamerschen, Ph.D., Distinguished Professor of Economics,

536 Brooks Hall, University of Georgia, Athens, GA

(http://www.uga.edu/ <javascript😳l('http://www.uga.edu/');>)

The top 1% earns 21% of all income; pays 37-1/2% of all taxes

The top 5% earns 35% of all income; pays 56-1/2% of all taxes

The top 10% earns 46% of all income; pays 67% of all taxes

The top 25% pays 84% of all taxes

The top 50% pays 96-1/2% of all taxes

The bottom 50% pays 3-1/2% of all taxes

** Just in case we are not completely clear on this issue, here is an
old story that will explain our US Tax System.

Tax Cuts - A Simple Lesson In Economics. This is how the cookie
crumbles. Please read it carefully. Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone
can understand.

Suppose that every day, ten people go out for dinner. The bill for all
ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go like this:

The first four people (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh $7.

The eighth $12.

The ninth $18.

The tenth person (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten people ate dinner in the
restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until
one day the owner threw them a curve.

Since you are all such good customers, he said, "I'm going to reduce the
cost of your daily meal by $20".

So now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay
their bill the way we pay our taxes. So, the first four people were
unaffected. They would still eat for free.

But what about the six paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20
windfall so everyone was getting his 'fair share'?

The six people realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth person and the
sixth person would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it might be fair to reduce each
person's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out
the amounts each should pay.

The fifth person, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before, and the first four continued
to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, they began to compare
their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20", declared the sixth person. He
pointed to the tenth person "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right", exclaimed the fifth person. "I only saved a
dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I got!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh person. "Why should he get $10 back
when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the break!"

"Wait a minute", yelled the first four people in unison. "We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine people surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth person didn't show up for dinner, so the nine
sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered they didn't have enough money between all of them for
even half of the bill.!

And that, boys and girls, journalists , college professors and other
Massachusetts Democrats, is how our tax system works. The people who pay
the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them
too much; attack them for being wealthy, and next time they may not show
up at the table.

Also I never said that the rich do no wrong, but I do find it hard to believe that they do any more wrong than the rest of the country.

Don't get me wrong, I know that there are serious issues wrong with health care today. I see the effects of the shortcommings of the system everyday at work when a 12 year old girl is denied treatment for osteosarcoma due to the fact that she is not a legal citizen while a useless peice of **** crack ***** can come and go from the hospital as much as she wants because "it is her right." I firmly believe that people who contribute to this economy or are physically unable to contribute deserve the same treatment as anyone else, it is just people who live off of the system who unfortunately use up a lot of the resources. So back to the main questions, it is not the millionaires use of insurance that is the problem.
 
Wow, that ended up a little longer than I thought.

And to CJM, good luck on finals.
 
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