My Rant Against Med School Admissions

[glypha1104]

You posted a link I posted above =( Ow that's like getting backhanded

Terribly sorry.

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[mybubbles14]

This isn't to be on any side of the argument, but I've heard two things (not sure how valid):

1. That most black matriculants are actually recent immigrants from Africa (1st, 2nd generation)

2. Most African-Americans (e.g. from the Projects) do not get along with Africans as a rule, any more so than with any other racial group.

IF these two things are both true, and we can be reasonably sure that the number of 1st/2nd generation immigrants from Africa are not underrepresented in medicine, then the URM for blacks is doing no good.

And on a completely different note, I agree that medicine is usually what is necessary rather than what is right, but to say that there should be no rants / qualms against race-based admissions criteria is also wrong; we are not in an ideal system, and therefore some friction is reasonable and to be expected. It should be more maturely presented than the OP, but that's a separate topic.

Like pinkyivy said I'll give you the first one...but um to your second point

I attended a top 10 university and yes MANY of the blacks were 1st or 2nd generation African or Caribbean, but ummm how do you figure on your second point lol? All of my best friends from college (also all pre-med) are either African or Caribbean and I like to think we get along just fine... (note I'm neither)

 

[He2]

posts like this are exactly why a year or two in the "real world" will do wonders for applicants. You will start to notice that people with PhD's in physics from the top schools are not successful, while people who went to bumF*** nowhere schools with terrible grades in school are driving in their beamers to their nice 2.3mil home. (i'm talking about traders in particular)

What people in school fail to see is that life does not work on a scale where you have a "score" and therefore are more "deserving".

In the employment world, past the basic ability, it then comes down to persistence, persistence, persistence, and then preparation intersected with luck. This is called opportunity. Some people wait 1 year for opportunity, some people wait a lifetime and it never comes. OP (although banned), even if we all concede you are the#1 in raw talent academically, you still might not be #1 in terms of the race to the top. There is a large luck factor involved with life, and you can't control that.

Just be grateful that the admissions process is relatively good at sorting out the hardest working people. Is it perfect? no. It never will be, because that would be frankly impossible. But it is DAMN better than the real world, where someone who talks slick and happens to know someone will get an opportunity over the guy in india 10000000x more talented and hardworking, but never got the opportunity.

Count your damn blessings man.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

posts like this are exactly why a year or two in the "real world" will do wonders for applicants. You will start to notice that people with PhD's in physics from the top schools are not successful, while people who went to bumF*** nowhere schools with terrible grades in school are driving in their beamers to their nice 2.3mil home. (i'm talking about traders in particular)

What people in school fail to see is that life does not work on a scale where you have a "score" and therefore are more "deserving".

In the employment world, past the basic ability, it then comes down to persistence, persistence, persistence, and then preparation intersected with luck. This is called opportunity. Some people wait 1 year for opportunity, some people wait a lifetime and it never comes. OP (although banned), even if we all concede you are the#1 in raw talent academically, you still might not be #1 in terms of the race to the top. There is a large luck factor involved with life, and you can't control that.

Just be grateful that the admissions process is relatively good at sorting out the hardest working people. Is it perfect? no. It never will be, because that would be frankly impossible. But it is DAMN better than the real world, where someone who talks slick and happens to know someone will get an opportunity over the guy in india 10000000x more talented and hardworking, but never got the opportunity.

Count your damn blessings man.

let this be engraved in stone and paraded forth through the virtual streets of SDN so that all may behold in amazement and wonder. praise be.

 

[CapnCrunch]

Very true He2. Sometimes 1 + 1 =/= 2 (metaphorically speaking) in the real world and things just don't go the way they're supposed to. But that's our reality...

 

[archimedesxx]

Ugh, I don't know why I got sucked into this mess, but I'll just say my usual URM piece and then move on...

1) as others have pointed out, medicine is a service profession. The adcoms are not there for you, they are there to determine whether you'll fit their idea of what a future doctor will be. In some schools, that is primarily numbers-based (case in point Wash U and NYU). In others, it's primarily based on research potential. In others, it's all about your volunteer work. But for the most part, schools look for a number of different "types" to fill out their class. So, as a rule, you're competing against others of your "type" and you have to stand out. Let me make this a little clearer. YOU ARE NOT COMPETING AGAINST THE URM FROM THE PROJECTS. You are competing against the other 3.9/39 Asian applicants. You have issues with your acceptances, blame it on those kids. And incidentally, if you look at ANY med school besides the HBCU's and stuff, you'll find that the number of spots taken by the hyper-academic asians far outnumber those of the black kids from the projects.

2) Once you start med school, you'll realize how little all of this matters, and how petty it all is. It's a ton of work, and where you do it is irrelevant. You'll do poorly or well on exams regardless of where you are, and your residency will be far more heavily based on how you did in school and on Step 1 than it ever would be based on where you went to school. So if you've gotten in anywhere, thank your lucky stars, and get ready to do more work than you ever have before. And btw, those URMs will be your classmates, will be taking the same exams you do, and some will probably score better than you. You might want to get over your issues now.

3) In order to be a good doctor, you have to create an atmosphere of comfort and trust with your patients. Patients with a certain background will most likely trust doctors of their backgrounds more than others. It's not racism, it's just the way it is. Instead of getting your panties in a bunch, try to think of the people you're supposed to want to help. If the best way to help those people is to recruit more minorities in medicine, then so be it. Attempt for 5 minutes to think like a mature adult instead of a petulant teenager, and you'll see why this makes sense.

4) For what it's worth, plenty of schools give aid based on need and scholarships based on stuff other than URM status. There is also "disadvantaged" status which plays a part in admissions. Please stop whining about how white and asian kids from impoverished backgrounds don't get what they "deserve" because it's just plain wrong. A number of the kids who go to my school and who are on full rides are Asian.


So yeah, quit your general whining and immaturity, keep working hard, and realize that this process isn't there as a circle jerk for the 4.0/40s out there. Medicine is there to serve a greater purpose, and adcoms are there to make sure all groups are covered.

I'm an URM and I did this in college. I have recounted my experience (in a clipped form on SDN) back in the day a.k.a being looked down upon sometimes at my Ivy League undergrad because I was URM.In my labs (Physics, Gen Chem and Ochem), there were times when I didn't have anyone to be my lab mate because they thought I was lazy or something to that effect. Not only did I own most of my White and Asian class mates, I was statistically better than most of my peers at my Ivy League school posting a very high GPA (3.9+) after 4 yrs, got many recognized national awards and did some things most of my peers only dreamed about.
I guess my point is, the idea that most URMs get in with lower stats is ridiculous at best. Those who even come in with lower stats do very well in medical school. They pass the boards and get into top residencies.
AdComs know which applicants are going to do well at their med school regardless of MCAT score or GPA.They are not going to admit someone who's going to fail. At my Harvard interview, the Diversity Affairs coordinator talked about a guy from my hometown who got in with less than their averages but at the end of four years graduated in the top 2% at HMS and matched into Plastic Surgery at Johns Hopkins. Now there were kids with 40s who were having fun at the bottom of the class. How do you like that URM kid now?

There are so many URM applicants who don't get in. What about that? Some of you idiots act like every URM gets into medical school. That's plain stupidity. There are many ORMs and whites who get in with lower stats. The only reason you fools think its rare is because there are so many majority applicants so much so that the effect is miniscule.

Just to reiterate LET's bolded statement. I'm going to medical school to have a fun time and work well with my classmates. I am pretty non-competitive, low key and very jovial. I learn because I want to. To me, medicine is not a job but a life-long career of learning. However, if you meet me and other URMs during our first day in medical school and think we will be at the bottom of the medical school class because supposedly (true or unfounded) we came in with lower stats , then I will shock you by the end of four years. You'll only live to tell your tale.

Admission to medical is not numbers-based. Don't for once think that you deserve to get into Harvard or Yale or Columbia or JHU because you made a lousy 39 on your MCAT. Wtf? How URMs get in is none of your business. You work hard and work with the cards you are dealt with. Stop whining on an anonymous internet forum after getting into four solid schools.

 

[randombetch]

Blah blah blah, URMs still get it easier.

OP got gypped, but that's life.

 

[He2]

Blah blah blah, URMs still get it easier.

OP got gypped, but that's life.

qft. I am 100% against AA, but its the least of mine, and the OP's concerns.

 

[youngMeddy]

Blah blah blah, URMs still get it easier.

OP got gypped, but that's life.

blah, blah, blah. balling at an ivy league MS. I'm done

 

[archimedesxx]

Blah blah blah, URMs still get it easier.

OP got gypped, but that's life.

blah blah blah says the typical low-life majority premed on SDN who is an internet gangster but cannot open his mouth in real life. He/She is very disillusioned and instead of going to the courts or doing sometime about the "unfair" advantage given to URMs whines and complains ad nauseum.

 

[archimedesxx]

blah, blah, blah. balling at an ivy league MS. I'm done

 

[unimaginative]

OP got gypped, but that's life.

No need for racial slurs. I know the Gypsies don't really get any respect anywhere but would you mind keeping your xenophobia to yourself.

 

[hanjg]

delete . double post.

 

[hanjg]

In my labs (Physics, Gen Chem and Ochem), there were times when I didn't have anyone to be my lab mate because they thought I was lazy or something to that effect.

I'm going to medical school to have a fun time and work well with my classmates. I am pretty non-competitive, low key and very jovial. I learn because I want to. To me, medicine is not a job but a life-long career of learning. However, if you meet me and other URMs during our first day in medical school and think we will be at the bottom of the medical school class because supposedly (true or unfounded) we came in with lower stats , then I will shock you by the end of four years. You'll only live to tell your tale.

I'll be happy to sit next to you.

 

[archimedesxx]

I'll be happy to sit next to you.

haha. Thanks

 

[Gifted Hands]

blah, blah, blah. balling at an ivy league MS. I'm done

I feel like I'm watching a video game. did you guys just battle?

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

blah blah blah says the typical low-life majority premed on SDN who is an internet gangster but cannot open his mouth in real life. He/She is very disillusioned and instead of going to the courts or doing sometime about the "unfair" advantage given to URMs whines and complains ad nauseum.

What exactly would you like him to do about the advantage URM's have in the application process? I don't think he has the power to change it, not even by taking his complaint to the courts.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

No need for racial slurs. I know the Gypsies don't really get any respect anywhere but would you mind keeping your xenophobia to yourself.

Awesome.

 

[archimedesxx]

What exactly would you like him to do about the advantage URM's have in the application process? I don't think he has the power to change it, not even by taking his complaint to the courts.

You forgot about the Michigan case? There were also some Asian kids a couple of years ago who were not accepted to Princeton and complained about AA. This is a free country so every **** can be sent to the courts. Complaining here ad nauseum isn't going to change ****! Go to adcoms and tell them about the unfairness of AA or bring up a case against AAMC and the schools you feel are practicing AA and take it to the supreme court.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

You forgot about the Michigan case? Complaining here ad nauaseum isn't going to change ****! Go to adcoms and tell them about the unfairness of AA or take it to the supreme court.

Ha, well I'd like to wish him luck with that ****. WAAAAAYYYY too much effort for this guy. I'd rather discuss it on a message board.

Oh, and I think he could spend his entire life complaining to adcom's and taking things to court, and nothing would change.

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Blah blah blah, URMs still get it easier.

OP got gypped, but that's life.

What exactly would you like him to do about the advantage URM's have in the application process? I don't think he has the power to change it, not even by taking his complaint to the courts.

The point I think he is trying to make is what's the point of going on an anonymous forum and whining about it (seems this occurs every week or so). In this thread there are few real solutions being presented and all I see is a lot of ganging up on URMs and race-baiting through foolishness and anecdotal evidence about URMs getting phone calls from Harvard for scoring a 28 on the MCAT or the tons of rich URM brats sucking their silver spoon while playing their way into JHU. It just does not happen.

If it is such a huge injustice to the world I think more people would be up in arms about it. I usually find that it is more so the people who hear hand me down stories, are bitter about their own credentials (insecurity) or are not knowledgeable about what is really going on that have the most problem with the supposed advantage we URMs receive. There are some people with legitimate qualms about the issue here but they are few and far between. If you really have that much of a problem with it, go to your local medical school, send a mass email to doctors and administrators presenting your arguments. Start the change that you want to see until your voice is heard, don't whine here or put down URMs with your jokes from behind your wall of anonymity and think that that is cool. I don't see any other group talked about so viciously as URMs on this forum of learning and sharing amongst "supposed" like minded individuals that want to erect change in this world through commitment to the service of their fellow man as a doctor. Some of you out there should be ashamed of yourselves. Present real arguments (with facts, statistics) and have a meaningful discussion with everyone else. Don't spout nonsense and expect the URMs on these threads to sit back and listen to it quietly.

 

[archimedesxx]

The point I think he is trying to make is what's the point of going on an anonymous forum and whining about it (seems this occurs every week or so). In this thread there are few real solutions being presented and all I see is a lot of ganging up on URMs and race-baiting through foolishness and anecdotal evidence about URMs getting phone calls from Harvard for scoring a 28 on the MCAT or the tons of rich URM brats sucking their silver spoon while playing their way into JHU. It just does not happen.

If it is such a huge injustice to the world I think more people would be up in arms about it. I usually find that it is more so the people who hear hand me down stories, are bitter about their own credentials (insecurity) or are not knowledgeable about what is really going on that have the most problem with the supposed advantage we URMs receive. There are some people with legitimate qualms about the issue here but they are few and far between. If you really have that much of a problem with it, go to your local medical school, send a mass email to doctors and administrators presenting your arguments. Start the change that you want to see until your voice is heard, don't whine here or put down URMs with your jokes from behind your wall of anonymity and think that that is cool. I don't see any other group talked about so viciously as URMs on this forum of learning and sharing amongst "supposed" like minded individuals that want to erect change in this world through commitment to the service of their fellow man as a doctor. Some of you out there should be ashamed of yourselves. Present real arguments (with facts, statistics) and have a meaningful discussion with everyone else. Don't spout nonsense and expect the URMs on these threads to sit back and listen to it quietly.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

No need for racial slurs. I know the Gypsies don't really get any respect anywhere but would you mind keeping your xenophobia to yourself.

kettlepotblack! the roma, my friend, the roma.

 

[randombetch]

blah blah blah says the typical low-life majority premed on SDN who is an internet gangster but cannot open his mouth in real life. He/She is very disillusioned and instead of going to the courts or doing sometime about the "unfair" advantage given to URMs whines and complains ad nauseum.

Wasn't whining - I was just stating the facts son.

I actually don't give a crap.

 

[randombetch]

You forgot about the Michigan case? There were also some Asian kids a couple of years ago who were not accepted to Princeton and complained about AA. This is a free country so every **** can be sent to the courts. Complaining here ad nauseum isn't going to change ****! Go to adcoms and tell them about the unfairness of AA or bring up a case against AAMC and the schools you feel are practicing AA and take it to the supreme court.

I would, except I don't give a s***.

And that kid's case didn't do anything whatsoever to change our school's (Princeton's) admissions.

 

[Pianoman32]

My final thoughts about arguing about URM status on SDN.....It all comes down to ones views on affirmative action and no one is going to change the views of someone else on affirmative action, just like no one will change the views of someone else on abortion.

I'm against affirmative action because I see it as a copout for the disparities that exist between races, an agonist to increasing racial tensions, and a failure of an MLK color free society. The people who support affirmative action fail to realize that they are getting cut short by the government. Instead of trying to improve primary education, improve our drug awareness programs, improve our pregnancy prevention programs, etc, the government instead implements an affirmative action policy that fails to solve the actual problems that cause the disparities in the first place. These are my views, but why argue about it? No one will change there mind.

Likewise, I am pro-choice (the choice to use a condom or not ***** your self out); however, I am not pro-choice to kill babies. The other side would say that I'm failing to give a women the choice to kill her baby because it is her baby. Just like affirmative action, there is no point in arguing about it because no one will change their mind on the subject.

 

[archimedesxx]

I would, except I don't give a s***.

And that kid's case didn't do anything whatsoever to change our school's (Princeton's) admissions.

I never said it did or sending it to the courts will do anything about it. My point was that it worked in MI and CA so if the OP or any of the whiners on this thread want to seek redress, it will be better to make a case at the courts NOT hide behind a veil of anonymity and spout nonsense!

 

[unimaginative]

kettlepotblack! the roma, my friend, the roma.

Yes, the term Gypsy is used to describe the Roma people and has been for centuries. However, it is not considered by most Roma activists to be a racial slur. Many of the most significant Roma cultural events throughout the world are titled "Gypsy _______".

 

[PinkIvy08]

My final thoughts about arguing about URM status on SDN.....It all comes down to ones views on affirmative action and no one is going to change the views of someone else on affirmative action, just like no one will change the views of someone else on abortion.

I'm against affirmative action because I see it as a copout for the disparities that exist between races, an agonist to increasing racial tensions, and a failure of an MLK color free society. The people who support affirmative action fail to realize that they are getting cut short by the government. Instead of trying to improve primary education, improve our drug awareness programs, improve our pregnancy prevention programs, etc, the government instead implements an affirmative action policy that fails to solve the actual problems that cause the disparities in the first place. These are my views, but why argue about it? No one will change there mind.

Likewise, I am pro-choice (the choice to use a condom or not ***** your self out); however, I am not pro-choice to kill babies. The other side would say that I'm failing to give a women the choice to kill her baby because it is her baby. Just like affirmative action, there is no point in arguing about it because no one will change their mind on the subject.

I hate when people do this, so real quick...

Affirmative Action does NOT address URM admissions. The largest demographic benefited by AA is...wait for it...yes, White females

'tis all (for now)

 

[Pianoman32]

I hate when people do this, so real quick...

Affirmative Action does NOT address URM admissions. The largest demographic benefited by AA is...wait for it...yes, White females

'tis all (for now)

Wait URM isn't a means of AA? Allowing minorities into medical school with much lower scores than the mean scores isn't AA? How is this any different than allowing minorities to get into college with lower SAT scores? How is this any different than allowing minorities to a get a job at a fire department with lower test scores? You obviously didn't learn much with your top ten education if you can't even see that URM status is a form of AA.

'tis all (for now)

 

[archimedesxx]

Wait URM isn't a means of AA? Allowing minorities into medical school with much lower scores than the mean scores isn't AA? How is this any different than allowing minorities to get into college with lower SAT scores? How is this any different than allowing minorities to a get a job at a fire department with lower test scores? You obviously didn't learn much with your top ten education if you can't even see that URM status is a form of AA.

'tis all (for now)

Hey idiot. Why didn't you address her other point that white women benefit the most from AA. Maybe you're not using your brains well? I thought all medical students were smart.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Wait URM isn't a means of AA? Allowing minorities into medical school with much lower scores than the mean scores isn't AA? How is this any different than allowing minorities to get into college with lower SAT scores? How is this any different than allowing minorities to a get a job at a fire department with lower test scores? You obviously didn't learn much with your top ten education if you can't even see that URM status is a form of AA.

'tis all (for now)

URM's face racism from many different angles would you rather be a ORM or an URM? Also URMs did not create AA it was gasp!!!! Also many URMs get in with stats that are close to the mean 3.5 GPA and around a 28MCAT. Also there are many ORMs who get in with these stats.

 

[NickNaylor]

I hate when people do this, so real quick...

Affirmative Action does NOT address URM admissions. The largest demographic benefited by AA is...wait for it...yes, White females

'tis all (for now)

Source or it didn't happen.

 

[Hoody]

I hate when people do this, so real quick...

Affirmative Action does NOT address URM admissions. The largest demographic benefited by AA is...wait for it...yes, White females

'tis all (for now)

Interesting! I think I've heard this before.


....Ivy, do you mind elaborating? You can PM me if you want. Thanks!

 

[Pianoman32]

Hey idiot. Why didn't you address her other point that white women benefit the most from AA. Maybe you're not using your brains well? I thought all medical students were smart.

Well I figured this was common sense seeing that white women, by overall numbers, are the largest minority in the workplace. Idiot, why address something this obvious? On a percentage bases of their population though, minorities still benefit much more so than white women. Idiot, you are confusing overall numbers with percentages

And are medical students all smart? Did you really ask this? This entire thread is about admission committees letting URM's in who are not smart. No offense to the students, but if you get in to medical school with a 25 mcat and a 3.0 gpa, you have not proved the intelligence necessary to enter medical school. Good thing residencies don't discriminate based on ones skin color. I sure would hate to have this student operate on me or a family member of mine.

 

[archimedesxx]

Well I figured this was common sense seeing that white women, by overall numbers, are the largest minority in the workplace. Idiot, why address something this obvious? On a percentage bases of their population though, minorities still benefit much more so than white women. Idiot, you are confusing overall numbers with percentages

And are medical students all smart? Did you really ask this? This entire thread is about admission committees letting URM's in who are not smart. No offense to the students, but if you get in to medical school with a 25 mcat and a 3.0 gpa, you have not proved the intelligence necessary to enter medical school. Good thing residencies don't discriminate based on ones skin color. I sure would hate to have this student operate on me or a family member of mine.

Smh! What medical school do you go to again? You seem to be very ignorant! Residencies do not discrimnate based on one's race. Agreed. But you do know that more than 90% of URMs who enter medical school graduate and enter residency. Right? How do they do that without passing the boards, fool? You seem to suggest that URMs fail out of medical school which makes you quite naive. Besides do you know there are many Whites who enter with the same MCAT and GPA you quoted above who do make it into med school and still pass and graduate right? So why single out URMs?

 

[Pianoman32]

URM's face racism from many different angles would you rather be a ORM or an URM? Also URMs did not create AA it was gasp!!!! Also many URMs get in with stats that are close to the mean 3.5 GPA and around a 28MCAT. Also there are many ORMs who get in with these stats.

It has nothing to do with racism. We can all agree that Blacks have faced the most racism in this country. However, hispanics? Give me a break! Asians have faced much more racism in the past 50 years. And in the past 10 years, muslims have faced much more racism.

URMs do not get in with mean scores. Pick up the MSAR and you will see this.

Who said URM's created aa? It was politicians who didn't want to fix the primary education disparities that exist in inner city and suburbia schools. AA is much cheaper than reforming our education system.

 

[Iso4ane]

I hate when people do this, so real quick...

Affirmative Action does NOT address URM admissions. The largest demographic benefited by AA is...wait for it...yes, White females

'tis all (for now)

Actually some researchers at Princeton show that the group most benefited by AA in UG college admissions are those of African American descent (34.5% [AA] vs 12.4%), followed by those of Hispanic descent (28.1% [AA] vs 13.0%). And contrary to popular thought Caucasians are minimally affected by the presence of AA (<1% difference; 23% [AA] vs 23.5%). However, those of Asian descent on the other hand are hurt by a good amount (18.7% [AA] vs 24.8%). Now the paper is a littrle bit old but from what I know admissions have not changed much over the past 12 years since the paper was written except for the fact that Massechusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, and Washington removed AA from their state schools.


And for those of you who want to see the paper and prove I'm not pulling stuff out of my bum can read the following paper.

http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf


And to the OP, I'm Asian too, and sometimes I feel the same way. Cause in my family at least (A=Average, B=Bad, C=Crap, and D=Death), but I figured out something, If we could convince all the Asians to stop work so freaking hard all the freaking time maybe it could help the rest of the Asians a bit. In fact, if your Asian and don't play the piano of violin you probably already special compared to other Asians.

 

[Pianoman32]

Smh! What medical school do you go to again? You seem to be very ignorant! Residencies do not discrimnate based on one's race. Agreed. But you do know that more than 90% of URMs who enter medical school graduate and enter residency. Right? How do they do that without passing the boards, fool? You seem to suggest that URMs fail out of medical school which makes you quite naive.

Stop reading things in to what I say. A student who does not do as well on there mcat, will likely not do as well on their boards and will likely not land a competitive residency. Therefore, they would not enter a surgical subspec. All I said is that I am glad there aren't these AA policies around that allow students to enter residencies based on there skin color, when to the pt, the most important thing will be this persons intelligence in not f-ing up the rest of there life.

 

[archimedesxx]

Stop reading things in to what I say. A student who does not do as well on there mcat, will likely not do as well on their boards and will likely not land a competitive residency. Therefore, they would not enter a surgical subspec. All I said is that I am glad there aren't these AA policies around that allow students to enter residencies based on there skin color, when to the pt, the most important thing will be this persons intelligence in not f-ing up the rest of there life.

It's good you used "likely" which means that there is a possibility that what you are saying doesn't happen 100% of the time. I personally hate anecdotes but I gave you an example of a guy from Harvard from my hometown who got into Harvard Med with lower stats but was at the top of the class and matched into Plastics at JHU. Read some of my posts above. Also, I'm not reading into things. I'm trying to help you realize the folly of your premise.
My problem with this thread is NOT the fact that some URMs get in with lower stats. My problem is that saying URMs get into medical school with lower stats is idiotic. First, there are many whites and asians who get in with far lower stats. Second, a lot of URMs get in with baller stats. Third, blaming URMs for your failures is silly. What has URM admissions got to do with you not getting your spot in medical school, or your job?

 

[Pianoman32]

It's good you used "likely" which means that there is a possibility that what you are saying doesn't happen 100% of the time. I personally hate anecdotes but I gave you an example of a guy from Harvard from my hometown who got into Harvard Med with lower stats but was at the top of the class and matched into Plastics at JHU. Read some of my posts above. Also, I'm not reading into things. I'm trying to help you realize the folly of your premise.
My problem with this thread is NOT the fact that some URMs get in with lower stats. My problem is that saying URMs get into medical school with lower stats is idiotic. First, there are many whites and asians who get in with far lower stats. Second, a lot of URMs get in with baller stats. Third, blaming URMs for your failures is silly. What has URM admissions got to do with you not getting your spot in medical school, or your job?

Obviously there are white and asian students who get in with lower stats. And obviously there are black and hispanic students who get in with "baller" stats. An introduction to statistics class would easily explain why this occurs. All groups are on a bell curve. It just so happens that the bell curve of the black and hispanic group is shifted about a standard deviation to the left than that of whites and asians.

Secondly, when have I blamed URM's for my failures? I have no failures. The only real thing I advocated in this thread was that if you're going to give special consideration to URM's, then special consideration should also be given to military veterans in the process. Say what you want, it may be a small help being a vet, but I am yet to see a military Vet get the URM boost in their app. If feel they deserve to get this URM boost much more than any URM who has never served in the military. They have been through **** you can't even comprehend. Why don't they get more help in the process?

 

[stevesavi]

It's good you used "likely" which means that there is a possibility that what you are saying doesn't happen 100% of the time. I personally hate anecdotes but I gave you an example of a guy from Harvard from my hometown who got into Harvard Med with lower stats but was at the top of the class and matched into Plastics at JHU. Read some of my posts above. Also, I'm not reading into things. I'm trying to help you realize the folly of your premise.
My problem with this thread is NOT the fact that some URMs get in with lower stats. My problem is that saying URMs get into medical school with lower stats is idiotic. First, there are many whites and asians who get in with far lower stats. Second, a lot of URMs get in with baller stats. Third, blaming URMs for your failures is silly. What has URM admissions got to do with you not getting your spot in medical school, or your job?

I think its pretty clear in this thread that when someone says "URM's ..." it is referring to the average, or general condition. No one is saying plenty of URM's dont kill the MCAT and have bomb gpa's, and no one is saying there arent white kids that go to med school with 27/3.5's. But since thousands of people go to med school every year we aggregate, and there is a disparity between the average matriculants objective stats based on race.

 

[mercy82]

In particular, my rant against how the med school admissions process selectively discriminates against Caucasians and Asians. First, a little bit about myself: I am an Asian male attending Columbia University. My GPA is 3.9+, and I got a 39S on my MCAT. I have 2 years of research, countless hours of volunteer experience, work experience in both medical and non-medical fields, and leadership positions in school clubs and student organizations. My recommendation letters were written by professors who really knew and liked my work, so I presume that they wrote great letters. And I live in South Jersey.

So far, I have gotten into four medical schools: Tufts, UMDNJ-NJMS, NYU, and Temple. Let me first say that I am thankful for receiving these four acceptances, and I am glad that I will be able to pursue my dream of becoming a physician. However, the number of waitlist and rejection decisions that I have received really bothers me. I was waitlisted at Mount Sinai, the University of Chicago, and even Robert Wood Johnson as an in-state NJ resident, which is extremely perplexing. I was rejected without even receiving an interview invite at Cornell and Johns Hopkins, was deferred at Penn, and have not heard back at all from Harvard or Columbia. Granted, I know that these are all top-notch schools, and I would never expect to receive positive news from all of them. However, I find it incomprehensible that I should have received negative news from all of these schools, considering the strength of my application. And then as I peruse MDapplicants, I see people with significantly lower scores and less impressive applications than mine getting acceptances to these schools, and these applicants are almost all URMs. Okay, so I know that scores don't mean everything, and I'm not going to say a kid with a 39 on the MCAT is much better than one with a 35. But when I see kids with a 30 on the MCAT getting accepted to schools I got waitlisted or rejected at, and the only distinguishing feature about them is that they are a URM, do you know how frustrating that is? I don't care how "unique" or "amazing" your life experiences are, but unless they've cured cancer or mapped the human genome, there is no reason why someone with a 30 should be getting accepted over me. There is a significant difference between a 39 and a 30 on the MCAT, and it's a joke that applicants with scores so much lower than mine are getting interviews and acceptances when I'm getting neither. I have seen URM applicants getting interviews at Harvard and Penn and Johns Hopkins with a 30, 31 on the MCAT and 3.5 GPAs. And then there's me, sitting here with a 39 and 3.9+ from Columbia, getting rejected. Me, getting waitlisted at Robert Wood Johnson and Mount Sinai. Really, Robert Wood Johnson??? Are you s****ing me??? It is called the Medical College Admissions Test for a reason; it's not the be-all, end-all, but what is the point of having an admissions test if you are going to disregard it for certain applicants while holding others to higher standards? I saw an African American applicant's MDapps page; with a 30, she got interviews at Harvard, Yale, and Penn, got waitlisted at Johns Hopkins, and was accepted at Robert Wood. As for me, I haven't heard back from Harvard or Yale, got deferred from Penn, got rejected pre-interview from Johns Hopkins, and was waitlisted at Robert Wood. You know what would happen if I got a 30 on the MCAT? I'd be lucky just to get into any med school and would have absolutely no shot of getting into any top school. But if a URM gets a 30, suddenly all of the top schools are falling over themselves to get that student. What the f***?! I feel so frustrated knowing that all of the effort I put into studying for the MCAT, maintaining a good GPA, and participating in all of my activities means nothing in the grand scheme of things, because it just makes me an average Asian applicant, whereas if I were a URM with the same exact application, I'd have my pick of any med school in the country. The American medical school application system is a joke, and I am so fed up with dealing with all of this bs discrimination against Asians. We're basically getting penalized for being smart and successful, while other groups are getting special treatment.

So there, that's my rant against med schools admissions. Am I frustrated? Yes. Am I bitter? Yes. Am I pissed off? Hell yes. I know that the med school application process is somewhat unpredictable and that I can't expect to get into all of the schools I apply to. But seeing URM applicants with significantly less impressive applications getting into the schools I have already gotten rejected or waitlisted at just makes me want to punch something. I can't wait for this whole application process to be done and over with so that I don't have to deal with anymore of this bs.

[/rant]

What are your life experiences? what motivates you to become a physician? How do you come across at your interviews? Do you believe your application is merely a reflection of adding prerequisites as appose to being done out of passion? How well written is your personal essay? What about your answers on your secondary application? Did you prove in any way on your application that good grades dont a doctor make?

I hope you see the reason for these questions.

 

[mercy82]

We tend to forget and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest affirmative action here in America... Legacy.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

We tend to forget and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest affirmative action here in America... Legacy.

that's more pertinent to UG admissions

 

[PinkIvy08]

Everyone, this will be real quick, as I am currently on break from 1 of my 3 jobs.

1) Let's not resort to namely calling (on both sides). I actually thought this was a civil debate for a moment...then this page took a turn for the worse...

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Let's just play nice

It has nothing to do with racism. We can all agree that Blacks have faced the most racism in this country. However, hispanics? Give me a break! Asians have faced much more racism in the past 50 years. And in the past 10 years, muslims have faced much more racism.

URMs do not get in with mean scores. Pick up the MSAR and you will see this.

Who said URM's created aa? It was politicians who didn't want to fix the primary education disparities that exist in inner city and suburbia schools. AA is much cheaper than reforming our education system.

a) Err...maybe we don't live in the same America? Latinos certainly face discrimination and Asians...I'd say maybe 50 years ago - yes, but now, not so much. I don't ever observe overt racism or prejudice against Asians (not saying it doesn't happen). I also think that with the stereotypes (for good and for bad) that they are a smart, hard-working people, they typically don't have that much trouble securing jobs and being trusted in whatever they do. Blacks and Latinos, on the other hand, seem to be second-guessed at every step they make. Just my observations though...

b) (in reference to the score difference) It has been said before, but with HBCUs supplying half the seats to URMs (or at least Blacks) and these schools having significantly lower GPA and MCAT averages, it's fair to say that these schools are pulling the averages for URMs down (hope that didn't come off wrong!). Once again, I'd love to see the average stats for URMs at non-HBCUs...my guess is that it is significantly higher.

Actually some researchers at Princeton show that the group most benefited by AA in UG college admissions are those of African American descent (34.5% [AA] vs 12.4%), followed by those of Hispanic descent (28.1% [AA] vs 13.0%). And contrary to popular thought Caucasians are minimally affected by the presence of AA (<1% difference; 23% [AA] vs 23.5%). However, those of Asian descent on the other hand are hurt by a good amount (18.7% [AA] vs 24.8%). Now the paper is a littrle bit old but from what I know admissions have not changed much over the past 12 years since the paper was written except for the fact that Massechusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, and Washington removed AA from their state schools.

And for those of you who want to see the paper and prove I'm not pulling stuff out of my bum can read the following paper.

http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf


And to the OP, I'm Asian too, and sometimes I feel the same way. Cause in my family at least (A=Average, B=Bad, C=Crap, and D=Death), but I figured out something, If we could convince all the Asians to stop work so freaking hard all the freaking time maybe it could help the rest of the Asians a bit. In fact, if your Asian and don't play the piano of violin you probably already special compared to other Asians.

Maybe after I squeeze in some sleep, I can find time to find statistical support from my claim (which we studied ~ 4 years ago in a psych course). I guarantee I didn't make it up, but as I said, I'm a little too busy at the moment to sit and search. Will get back to you all!

 

[medactar]

Now both URMs and ORMs don't want to bring up that AA is about racism that is still rampant in our country and has tried to cripple blacks in the past. Minorities don't want to bring this up because they don't want to seem whiney and come off as a victim and of course those who have benefited and still benefit from those past racist practices don't want to bring it up for obvious reasons.

The fact is that all minorities (yes, EVEN THE RICH ONES) are adversely affected by racism. It permiates the psyche of almost all Americans. This manifests itself in both overt and aversive acts of racism. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm


The U.S. wronged a group and gave them a handicap and AA is a way to attempt to fix it. I know most people (black, white or other) don't like to think of it this way, but it's the truth and it is valid.

Complaining about AA is like chopping off a leg and the arms of someone, saying sorry but then being upset about assisting the now cripple. Ridic


[now let the racism denial begin]

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

It has nothing to do with racism. We can all agree that Blacks have faced the most racism in this country. However, hispanics? Give me a break! Asians have faced much more racism in the past 50 years. And in the past 10 years, muslims have faced much more racism.

URMs do not get in with mean scores. Pick up the MSAR and you will see this.

Who said URM's created aa? It was politicians who didn't want to fix the primary education disparities that exist in inner city and suburbia schools. AA is much cheaper than reforming our education system.

URMs didn't create AA but they get all the anger towards them. I have the MSAR the three HBCUs have mean MCATs around 25-26 and have a average GPA of 3.5. Sure they aren't the highest but their stats are by no means "bad" or "stupid".

I know Asians have a harder time getting into medical school part of that their is a large asian base in California which have some of the most competitive schools. Asains do get in with 3.5 and 25s granted only one in five get accepted with those stats but how is it the URMs fault they didn't make the policy.

The point of AA is to get more URMs into higher positions so their kids can be able to have a good chance. Jim Crow was only disbanded around 50 years ago. Many URMs were not allowed to attend any medical school in the USA hence why the HBCUs got created.

And fun fact all those crying about how URMs take your place please explain how ORMs with a 24-26 MCAT almost equals the amount of all URM acceptances?

 

[FIREitUP]

Now both URMs and ORMs don't want to bring up that AA is about racism that is still rampant in our country and has tried to cripple blacks in the past. Minorities don't want to bring this up because they don't want to seem whiney and come off as a victim and of course those who have benefited and still benefit from those past racist practices don't want to bring it up for obvious reasons.

The fact is that all minorities (yes, EVEN THE RICH ONES) are adversely affected by racism. It permiates the psyche of almost all Americans. This manifests itself in both overt and aversive acts of racism. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm


The U.S. wronged a group and gave them a handicap and AA is a way to attempt to fix it. I know most people (black, white or other) don't like to think of it this way, but it's the truth and it is valid.

Complaining about AA is like chopping off a leg and the arms of someone, saying sorry but then being upset about assisting the now cripple. Ridic


[now let the racism denial begin]

i dont recall me or my family exploiting any minorities...do I owe them something?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

i dont recall me or my family exploiting any minorities...do I owe them something?

wow way to miss the point there