My Rant Against Med School Admissions

[medactar]

this guy nailed it - there are many many people who come here as poor immigrants (whose parents worked mundane, low skill jobs) who have to deal with as much stuff as URM's have here

coming from a big city I can attest to the fact that really it's not overt racism or any of that other bogus stuff holding back some of these URM's but lack of normal parenting. Many of my carrib or African friends (who have recently immigrated form Africa) are just plain disgusted with the behavior of the majority of the URM's. I wish many of the politically correct, liberal posters in this thread could spend a few months in my neighborhood to see exactly what I"m talking about.

I'm not saying that all URM's are bad parents or anything of that sort but really and this applies to any ethnicity/skin color the way kids are raised has a huge effect. If your parents curse, don't read to you, etc you probably won't grow up wanting to learn.

As someone from the Caribbean who has had to overcome great obstacles, I realize that blacks in the US face a whole different set of issues than black immigrants. They have a history of oppression that is unmatched in it's length and ways in which it has mutated.

To use black immigrants as a way to make light of the particular set of circumstances that African Americans had to face is silly and shows a lack of grasp on historical context.

You say the lack of normal parenting is what is really holding them back. You don't see a correlation between racism/slavery/Jim crow laws in the US and the break down of the African American family? Interesting

The lack of depth and critical thinking in this thread are honestly astounding.

ETA: The bolded is particulary hilarious because it basically proves my point. If a child turns out a certain way, you can attribute much of it to the parent. Go back in time and you can attribute their parent's actions to the parent's parents and so on. When blacks were beaten and killed for trying to learn how to read or told that no matter what they do, they will still be NOTHING, these things are passed down. Apathy is passed on. Really, what's the point anyway if a white felon will be offered a job at a higher rate than a black man with no record? http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/ This is what people think (subconsiously or not)

The US played a very involved part in systematically breaking down a few "races" but lo the devils come home if they try to play a systematic part in building those downtrodden races up.

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[glypha1104]

As someone from the Caribbean who has had to overcome great obstacles, I realize that blacks in the US face a whole different set of issues than black immigrants. They have a history of oppression that is unmatched in it's length and ways in which it has mutated.

To use black immigrants as a way to make light of what the particular set of circumstances that African Americans had to face is silly and show a lack of grasp of the historical reasons blacks in America are in the situation they are in today.

You say the lack of normal parenting is what is really holding them back. You don't see a correlation between racism/slavery/Jim crow laws in the US and the break down of the African American family? Interesting

The lack of depth and critical thinking in this thread is honestly astounding.

 

[medactar]

Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.
Race doesn't exist.



/thread

But RACISM DOES

 

[DannyGlover]

I said that because he/she stated he/she was an URM and he/she also said that he/she had been discriminated against. Also he/she verbally attacked someone by calling them ignorant which is uncalled for.

Not once did I say the individual was african american. You implied this based upon their grammar. Yet I'm racist?

Read over the entire thread. You will see multiple racist comments directed towards asians. No one gives two ****s about these comments. Yet I say something about the individuals grammar, and I'm labeled as a racist?

I truly feel that if all people were required to serve in the military, there would be no racism in this country. People aren't judged by the color or colorless of their skin. It's a very wonderful thing. There literally is no racial tension between whites and blacks.

LOL. Are you serious bro? What military do you serve in? Not only are there racist elements, but also sexist and bigoted (religious--ie, Muslim) elements as well. Keep the wool over your eyes.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

As someone from the Caribbean who has had to overcome great obstacles, I realize that blacks in the US face a whole different set of issues than black immigrants. They have a history of oppression that is unmatched in it's length and ways in which it has mutated.

To use black immigrants as a way to make light of the particular set of circumstances that African Americans had to face is silly and shows a lack of grasp on historical context.

You say the lack of normal parenting is what is really holding them back. You don't see a correlation between racism/slavery/Jim crow laws in the US and the break down of the African American family? Interesting

The lack of depth and critical thinking in this thread are honestly astounding.

ETA: The bolded is particulary hilarious because it basically proves my point. If a child turns out a certain way, you can attribute much of it to the parent. Go back in time and you can attribute their parent's actions to the parent's parents and so on. When blacks were beaten and killed for trying to learn how to read or told that no matter what they do, they will still be NOTHING, these things are passed down. Apathy is passed on. Really, what's the point anyway if a white felon will be offered a job at a higher rate than a black college grad with no record? This is what people think (subconsiously or not)

The US played a very involved part in systematically breaking down a few "races" but lo the devils come home if they try to play a systematic part in building those downtrodden races up.

Well said...

 

[dokein]

As someone from the Caribbean who has had to overcome great obstacles, I realize that blacks in the US face a whole different set of issues than black immigrants. They have a history of oppression that is unmatched in it's length and ways in which it has mutated.

To use black immigrants as a way to make light of the particular set of circumstances that African Americans had to face is silly and shows a lack of grasp on historical context.

You say the lack of normal parenting is what is really holding them back. You don't see a correlation between racism/slavery/Jim crow laws in the US and the break down of the African American family? Interesting

The lack of depth and critical thinking in this thread are honestly astounding.

ETA: The bolded is particulary hilarious because it basically proves my point. If a child turns out a certain way, you can attribute much of it to the parent. Go back in time and you can attribute their parent's actions to the parent's parents and so on. When blacks were beaten and killed for trying to learn how to read or told that no matter what they do, they will still be NOTHING, these things are passed down. Apathy is passed on. Really, what's the point anyway if a white felon will be offered a job at a higher rate than a black man with no record? http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/ This is what people think (subconsiously or not)

The US played a very involved part in systematically breaking down a few "races" but lo the devils come home if they try to play a systematic part in building those downtrodden races up.

Fact: Most black medical students are recent immigrants, not Afro-Americans. African immigrants are the most educated ethnic group in the United States, surpassing Asians.

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within.

What about Hispanics? Did they suffer through Jim Crow policies?

And you're accusing others of not understanding history...

I disagree that the best point to correct past injustices is at the level of medical school admissions, after the student has already gone through 4 years of undergraduate education.

I mean at some point in your life you have to get over it. If you can't demonstrate that you've gotten over it by performing through college (presumably if you get to college you're well aware of the value of education), who's to say that you'll get over it during medical school, or residency, or as an attending? If it affects your performance in college maybe it'll affect your outcomes as a physician.

Outside of the Carribeans and Howard and such, most URMs who get in would have gotten in otherwise. The acceptance rate by categories stratified above a 3.6 and 32 differs by only 10-30%, How is it that 70-90% were demonstratably able to get over it and those that that aren't are given extra leeway?

Secondly medicine is a business too. It provides a service, it has customers, it requires money to float. Yes medicine is humanistic but without a market system medicine in its current form DOES. NOT. EXIST. You cap all doctor salaries at 40k a year and pump the extra money back into black communities for extra education, and that helps momentarily. Guess what, the caliber of your average MD will drop like a stone.

Medicine is about being a physician, but doctors are involved in healthcare, in medical research, in furthering the field and finding new ways to treat people. We need to attract the best minds in order to advance that, which is why a lot of the most competitive schools look for high MCAT scores, great research, showign initiative in leadership in extracurriculars, etc. In order to attract the best, the system has to be merit-based (or such is the notion of capitalism). Yes, right now it's 99% merit-based, but if you start creating an uneven playing field, it's not ideal and people will be turned away.

 

[medactar]

Fact: Most black medical students are recent immigrants, not Afro-Americans. African immigrants are the most educated ethnic group in the United States, surpassing Asians.

I know this.

It goes hand in hand with my point. I'm not sure how anything you said in your post addresses the issues that I brought up... other than "get over it"




Policies put African Americans "under it" so policies are necessary for them to get "over it".

 

[amikeMD]

What about Hispanics? Did they suffer through Jim Crow policies?

Hispanics did suffer massive discrimination during those times, but it just isn't talked about much because their numbers weren't as high as blacks. This is why URM status includes them. Same with Native Americans.

If you are trying to say some hispanics shouldn't be included in the URM category because many of them are recent immigrants, then you could easily say recent black immigrants shouldn't be included into the URM category either.

Overall, this URM argument is stupid. Just do your best and you will probably make it to medical school.

 

[zempa]

As someone from the Caribbean who has had to overcome great obstacles, I realize that blacks in the US face a whole different set of issues than black immigrants. They have a history of oppression that is unmatched in it's length and ways in which it has mutated.

To use black immigrants as a way to make light of the particular set of circumstances that African Americans had to face is silly and shows a lack of grasp on historical context.

You say the lack of normal parenting is what is really holding them back. You don't see a correlation between racism/slavery/Jim crow laws in the US and the break down of the African American family? Interesting

The lack of depth and critical thinking in this thread are honestly astounding.

ETA: The bolded is particulary hilarious because it basically proves my point. If a child turns out a certain way, you can attribute much of it to the parent. Go back in time and you can attribute their parent's actions to the parent's parents and so on. When blacks were beaten and killed for trying to learn how to read or told that no matter what they do, they will still be NOTHING, these things are passed down. Apathy is passed on. Really, what's the point anyway if a white felon will be offered a job at a higher rate than a black man with no record? http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/ This is what people think (subconsiously or not)

The US played a very involved part in systematically breaking down a few "races" but lo the devils come home if they try to play a systematic part in building those downtrodden races up.

look I understand your points and they are valid. You are however ignoring several important issues.

A) As someone pointed out above other groups had to suffer through terrible persecution too (i.e. Jews). As an aside hispanics and latinos also get AA (why?)

B) I think many people tend to forget the spirit of the civil rights movement - these were people who were fighting to rise up, many of these same people were trying to educate themselves etc. - in short there was a strong emphasis on knowledge and empowerment through education. Personally and this is only my opinion obviously this spirit seems to be gone from many of the current generations. I've actually had discussions about this with older generation URM's (many who were growing up in the 40's - 50's) as part of a project for English and it was in fact they that suggested what I stated earlier about education.

C) You ignored my other point about inner city youth. I also forgot to mention that many kids feel that they shouldn't try as hard because of AA. One of my hispanic friends actually said this a few days ago after our P chem final. Something to the effect of well my grades are good enough because I'm hispanic etc. In cases like this AA is then counterproductive and seems to do more bad then good. Really it's human nature, I know for a fact that if I had to have a 50 average to get an A instead of a 90 I obviously wouldn't study as hard - my 60 would be "good enough".

D) Policies like this are very divisive as they group people based on all things - race.

Lastly I have a question: At what point will AA stop? Is there a quantifiable percentage of URM's that must be in certain sectors?

 

[vin5cent0]

Racism? Really? So because URMs are getting into medical school, there is racism involved? In what way? With lower stats? Most of those URMs are getting in with lower stats at HBCU, PR and Caribbean med schools. They are not gaining acceptances everywhere around the country with said stats (If you think so, bring the statistics to back up your assertions). As I said before more ORMs are matriculating than URMs with lower stats because of the sheer number of ORMs gaining acceptances vs URMs. Check SDN for threads on below 30 MCAT scores and below 3.5 GPAs and you will see a good proportion of ORMs in the thread. Go express your concerns to them please. Just because the variable that you can tell that differs between two candidates without knowing their applications is skin color, doesn't mean that that is what determined their admissions. Also, your guarantee that a vast majority of URM applications were in no way hindered education wise is anecdotal at best. Everyone knows that 1 rich Black applicant who is getting over apparently but this is definitely not the norm as most of the wealth in this country is Cauc(Asian) controlled (like 90%). The system is flawed but unless you can speak as an Adcom to what really happens at those meetings then its just heresay.

Uh, really? If a hispanic is picked over a caucasian based off the fact that he's hispanic, THAT is racism. Believe it or not, there can be racism against a white man!

 

[dokein]

Hispanics did suffer massive discrimination during those times, but it just isn't talked about much because their numbers weren't as high as blacks. This is why URM status includes them. Same with Native Americans.

If you are trying to say some hispanics shouldn't be included in the URM category because many of them are recent immigrants, then you could easily say recent black immigrants shouldn't be included into the URM category either.

Overall, this URM argument is stupid. Just do your best and you will probably make it to medical school.

Asians also suffered massive discrimination during those times.

Yes I would say recent black immigrants shouldn't be included into the URM category.

I've already gotten into a top 10 medical school. I believe that racial discrimination, however practical, is ethically and morally wrong.

 

[zempa]

I also want to add that as a response to people saying, "get over it. URM's aren't taking your spots, don't be bitter" - I've come to accept these policies as a way of life in America (since I immigrated here) and don't really think about them as any failures or rejections are only my own fault. At the same time, however, I feel very strongly about these policies as I think that they are unfair.

 

[yearn4ivy]

I also want to add that as a response to people saying, "get over it. URM's aren't taking your spots, don't be bitter" - I've come to accept these policies as a way of life in America (since I immigrated here) and don't really think about them as any failures or rejections are only my own fault. At the same time, however, I feel very strongly about these policies as I think that they are unfair.

Like you mentioned, "get over it. URM's aren't taking your spots, don't be bitter"

 

[dokein]

Like you mentioned, "get over it. URM's aren't taking your spots, don't be bitter"

Ethic and moral beliefs do not only encompass what directly benefits or harms ourselves.

 

[amikeMD]

I also want to add that as a response to people saying, "get over it. URM's aren't taking your spots, don't be bitter" - I've come to accept these policies as a way of life in America (since I immigrated here) and don't really think about them as any failures or rejections are only my own fault. At the same time, however, I feel very strongly about these policies as I think that they are unfair.

I don't mean this in any harsh way, but how can someone go to another country then say a policy set in place to help bring up a past discriminated group is unfair?

It would be similar to me going to Australia and saying that the native Aborigine people there shouldn't have any beneficiary policies even though they were terribly discriminated against.

I think this is where I have some issues in why some people are against affirmative action policies. This is the way that the previous generation choice to deal with a difficult issue of their time. It hasn't even been 50 years since minorities were heavily discriminated against. How exactly can the new generation of people just say, these policies are morally wrong, without taking into account what happened in the past? These things don't happen overnight.

I too don't like race-based policies, but these policies are there for a reason. Anyway, I would say that these polices will be probably expire in a few decades when the progress various institutions are looking for are satisfied.

 

[yearn4ivy]

"Fact: Most black medical students are recent immigrants, not Afro-Americans. African immigrants are the most educated ethnic group in the United States, surpassing Asians.

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within."

Comparing the Jewish experience to the Afr American experience is like comparing brocolli to apples.

For one, some Christain evangelicals think that Jews are God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.
This probably makes them feel like a special group of people and may be the ultimate self-confidence builder.

On the other hand, Afr Americans were enslaved for 400 years and post-slavery, had to fight for every single thing: the right to vote, education, equal access to housing, jobs e.t.c. Slavery was justified because 'black' Africans were considered inferior, barbaric animals that needed to civilized. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be in a country, where the society fought your intergration every step of the way and vehemently rejected, then protested your equality.

By the way, I am African international student.

 

[dokein]

I don't mean this in any harsh way, but how can someone go to another country then say a policy set in place to help bring up a past discriminated group is unfair?

It would be similar to me going to Australia and saying that the native Aborigine people there shouldn't have any beneficiary policies even though they were terribly discriminated against.

When the URM policy doesn't take into consideration whether you're a recently immigrated black or Hispanic (and most admitted URM blacks are recent African immigrants), I think it's fair for recently immigranted non-URMs to have problems with it.

My problems with the URM process would be much, much less if immigrants from any country were excepted.

 

[SirSpicious]

Policies?? there is no Afirmative Action policy in place regarding Medical School Admissions.

carry on...

 

[zempa]

Fact: Most black medical students are recent immigrants, not Afro-Americans. African immigrants are the most educated ethnic group in the United States, surpassing Asians.

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within.

Comparing the Jewish experience to the Afr American experience is like comparing brocolli to apples.

For one, Jews consider themselves God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.
This probably makes them feel like a special group of people and may be the ultimate self-confidence builder.

On the other hand, Afr Americans were enslaved for 400 years and post-slavery, had to fight for every single thing: the right to vote, education, equal access to housing, jobs e.t.c. Slavery was justified because 'black' Africans were considered inferior, barbaric animals that needed to civilized. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be in a country, where the society fought your intergration every step of the way and vehemently rejected, then protested your equality.

By the way, I am African international student.

WTF? is this some anti-semitic rant? Let me guess you also think that they control everything, have big noses, and love money right? Have you ever even heard a Jewish person say that (except maybe the fanatic orthodox ones)? It's because of this type of attitude that Jewish people have been oppressed for so many years, except they don't constantly complain about it and bring it up - instead choosing to focus on making themselves better

 

[yearn4ivy]

To ZEMPA,

I was responding to Dokein contribution, which you can find below in blue; also pay attention to the bolded segments of my contribution:

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within."

"Comparing the Jewish experience to the Afr American experience is like comparing brocolli to apples.

For one, some Christain evangelicals think Jews are God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.
This probably makes them feel like a special group of people and may be the ultimate self-confidence builder.

On the other hand, Afr Americans were enslaved for 400 years and post-slavery, had to fight for every single thing: the right to vote, education, equal access to housing, jobs e.t.c. Slavery was justified because 'black' Africans were considered inferior, barbaric animals that needed to civilized. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be in a country, where the society fought your intergration every step of the way and vehemently rejected, then protested your equality.

By the way, I am African international student. "

Anti-semitic? Enough with the projection.
I was simply saying that the experiences of these two persecuted groups are very different.

Read carefully next time

 

[amikeMD]

When the URM policy doesn't take into consideration whether you're a recently immigrated black or Hispanic (and most admitted URM blacks are recent African immigrants), I think it's fair for recently immigranted non-URMs to have problems with it.

My problems with the URM process would be much, much less if immigrants from any country were excepted.

True, but this is assuming that the recent immigrants weren't affected by discrimination either. It isn't as if after the civil rights bill were put into place things magically changed so that an immigrant who came to the country few year later could say, "Wow things sure are different; America surely has changed." They probably went through similar difficulties, which is why they and their children should still qualify.

If you mean today's immigrants? I would guess today's immigrants would be on visas so they wouldn't be considered a URM.

Actually, maybe affirmative action policies would become similar to the university legacy policy in the future. If a person can prove that their family was discriminated against in the past, then they would be given a points. Just as a person whose parents went to a certain university gets a few points.

 

[zempa]

To ZEMPA,

I was responding to Dokein contribution, which you can find below in blue; also pay attention to the bolded segments of my contribution:

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within."

"Comparing the Jewish experience to the Afr American experience is like comparing brocolli to apples.

For one, Jews consider themselves God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.
This probably makes them feel like a special group of people and may be the ultimate self-confidence builder.

On the other hand, Afr Americans were enslaved for 400 years and post-slavery, had to fight for every single thing: the right to vote, education, equal access to housing, jobs e.t.c. Slavery was justified because 'black' Africans were considered inferior, barbaric animals that needed to civilized. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be in a country, where the society fought your intergration every step of the way and vehemently rejected, then protested your equality.

By the way, I am African international student. "

Anti-semitic? Enough with the projection.
I was simply saying that the experiences of these two persecuted groups are very different.

Read carefully next time

LOL - projection you must be out of your mind - I am Jewish

 

[dokein]

For one, Jews consider themselves God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.
This probably makes them feel like a special group of people and may be the ultimate self-confidence builder.

On the other hand, Afr Americans were enslaved for 400 years and post-slavery, had to fight for every single thing: the right to vote, education, equal access to housing, jobs e.t.c. Slavery was justified because 'black' Africans were considered inferior, barbaric animals that needed to civilized. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be in a country, where the society fought your intergration every step of the way and vehemently rejected, then protested your equality.

By the way, I am African international student.

What about the wars in Afganistan and Iraq? How do you think they feel with their country CURRENTLY being occupied and bombed, and then coming over here and being made fun of and consistently discriminated against at airports? The other day I was walking down the street when I saw an Arabian guy get yelled at by an Afro-American to "get out of my country!"

Slavery has happened in many, many populations and is not unique to Africa. This includes Jewish people, who were enslaved by the Romans. This includes Russians, Europeans, Arabs, etc. This includes indentured servitude and concentration camps which affected Asian and Jewish populations.

You cannot enslave someone and still feel that they are still equal. Human empathy does not work that way. Therefore, every population that has been enslaved has been treated as animals, and fought for equality. While trick-or-treating where I grew up in Oregon, I was refused candy point-blank (while my friend who was white was given extra) because I was Asian. Now I won't argue that my experience, or that Chinese people, went through the same degree of racism as blacks, but I will argue that Jewish people have.

Yes, some cultures for whatever reason still value education more. This includes Asian cultures and Jewish cultures, and African-immigrant cultures. That is why Asians and Jews are not given preference (because the culture is what allowed them to overcome the difference), and why African immigrants should also not be given URM status even if Afro-Americans are.

As for Afro-American culture, that is something that needs to be corrected and worked on at its inception, not after 4 years of undergraduate college on the way to professional school. Presumably that person should have the experiences to know better, and being an adult is about overcoming personal difficulties.

People should be chosen on the basis of their merit, which is evaluated by GPA, MCAT, and ECs, and perhaps financial difficulties.

 

[yearn4ivy]

LOL - projection you must be out of your mind - I am Jewish

You are Jewish? So what? Then it must be paranoia. Calm down.

 

[dokein]

Actually, maybe affirmative action policies would become similar to the university legacy policy in the future. If a person can prove that their family was discriminated against in the past, then they would be given a points. Just as a person whose parents went to a certain university gets a few points.

Just to be clear, I'm strongly against legacy as well.

 

[dokein]

For one, Jews consider themselves God's chosen people: God chose them to show the rest of the world how to live, and God will always love them.

This is the part Zempa was complaining about, and the part that shows your ignorance.

Jewish people don't go home after a tough day, cook up some matzo balls, and say "well I had a tough day but God loves me and not him!" They are affected by their environment just like anyone else.

Furthermore, a lot of Jewish people are only ethnically Jewish and don't believe in God from a religious perspective.

In terms of religion, black communities and Africa have the highest religious percentage in the world, so the same argument could be turned around, that more black people know that God loves them.

 

[amikeMD]

Just to be clear, I'm strongly against legacy as well.

I wasn't saying I wanted the policy to become similar to the legacy policy. I was simply saying when the affirmative action policies are finally gutted, the leftovers will probably be similar to the legacy policies.

Example:

Application to college.

___ Check here if your parents or grandparents attended XXXX university.

___ Check here if your parents or grandparents were discriminated against in the 60s and back preventing them from going to XXXX university.

 

[dokein]

I wasn't saying I wanted the policy to become similar to the legacy policy. I was simply saying when the affirmative action policies are finally gutted, the leftovers will probably be similar to the legacy policies.

Example:

Application to college.

___ Check here if your parents or grandparents attended XXXX university.

___ Check here if your parents or grandparents were discriminated against in the 60s and back preventing them from going to XXXX university.

Yeah, wasn't arguing with you and I agree with your assessment.

 

[yearn4ivy]

What about the wars in Afganistan and Iraq? How do you think they feel with their country CURRENTLY being occupied and bombed, and then coming over here and being made fun of and consistently discriminated against at airports? The other day I was walking down the street when I saw an Arabian guy get yelled at by an Afro-American to "get out of my country!"

Slavery has happened in many, many populations and is not unique to Africa. This includes Jewish people, who were enslaved by the Romans. This includes Russians, Europeans, Arabs, etc. This includes indentured servitude and concentration camps which affected Asian and Jewish populations.

You cannot enslave someone and still feel that they are still equal. Human empathy does not work that way. Therefore, every population that has been enslaved has been treated as animals, and fought for equality. While trick-or-treating where I grew up in Oregon, I was refused candy point-blank (while my friend who was white was given extra) because I was Asian. Now I won't argue that my experience, or that Chinese people, went through the same degree of racism as blacks, but I will argue that Jewish people have.

Yes, some cultures for whatever reason still value education more. This includes Asian cultures and Jewish cultures, and African-immigrant cultures. That is why Asians and Jews are not given preference (because the culture is what allowed them to overcome the difference), and why African immigrants should also not be given URM status even if Afro-Americans are.

As for Afro-American culture, that is something that needs to be corrected and worked on at its inception, not after 4 years of undergraduate college on the way to professional school. Presumably that person should have the experiences to know better, and being an adult is about overcoming personal difficulties.

People should be chosen on the basis of their merit, which is evaluated by GPA, MCAT, and ECs, and perhaps financial difficulties.

Slavery is certainly not unique to Africa, but the Atlantic slavery certainly occured on the largest scale.

I do not think there is anything wrong with Afr American culture, that is mainly a misconception based on stereotypes.
Back to my initial point, the only difference between African and Afr American is that former existed their indigenous societies, while the latter had to endure existence in a society that continues to protest (whether covertly, or overtly) their integration into society.

 

[yearn4ivy]

This is the part Zempa was complaining about, and the part that shows your ignorance.

Jewish people don't go home after a tough day, cook up some matzo balls, and say "well I had a tough day but God loves me and not him!" They are affected by their environment just like anyone else.

Furthermore, a lot of Jewish people are only ethnically Jewish and don't believe in God from a religious perspective.

In terms of religion, black communities and Africa have the highest religious percentage in the world, so the same argument could be turned around, that more black people know that God loves them.

I think I should rephrase that then. I do not know what Jewish people consider themselves to be, but rather I am commenting on Christain evangelical perceptions of the Jewish people.

Yes, there are evangelical Christians that belief that the second coming of Jesus has something to do with the state of Israel and Jewish people

So Dokein, I am certainly not ignorant about Jews/ Judaism (I actually took a religion and culture class and we covered Judaism); that was poor articulation on my part.

 

[Bbon]

Did this thread just go off on a different tangent? Suddenly we've switched from a debate about the fairness of URMs getting a boost to one on affirmative action. You guys arguing know there's a distinction? The whole point of wanting more URMs is, as has been stated several times in this thread already, so that there are a greater number of racially diverse doctors serving a racially diverse patient population. So medical schools could care less if the URM student has the title to 3 ferrari's in his name and an island in the carribean. Of course, coming from a disadvantaged background is also covered on your amcas application. Those are separate issues and shouldn't be confused. Both give you benefits independently.

I find this thread interesting for the few gems I've read, but mostly it's turned into an ugly name-calling back and forth session. Here's what I've come to realize:

Getting into a top ranked medical school is about being unique in some way. Being a URM guarantees nothing, and if you look at any of the top medical classes, you'll see 5 Asians for every 1 African American. So no, you aren't losing your spots to the urms. Of course, it's a lot harder to stand out if you're an Asian with a 35+, 3.8+ then if you're African-American or Latino with those numbers. Whether that's "fair" is another issue. Medical schools are interested in building a diverse class and even if they accepted every Asian with stellar numbers, there would be many left in the dust. It's unfortunate, but your life is probably not going to suffer because of it. The OP himself got into 4 medical schools and he could very well surpass other students at schools from which he never received an interview invite.

One point I thought was interesting was someone saying that much of your intelligence is out of your control and any advantages you receive from that are seemingly just as unfair as having urm status. While the poster seemed to be joking and no one really gave his post much thought, I thought it was a legit point. Adcoms are looking to build a class of doctors that will best serve the interests of the community. You need smart doctors, you need compassionate doctors, and you need ethnically diverse doctors. All of these things are important to some degree and just because you can't control some of them doesn't mean adcoms shouldn't consider them.

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Uh, really? If a hispanic is picked over a caucasian based off the fact that he's hispanic, THAT is racism. Believe it or not, there can be racism against a white man!

So what if a caucasian is picked over an asian applicant? There are Caucasians and Asians who get into medical school with MCAT scores in the high and mid 20s. There are thousands of ORMs that get into medical school with MCAT scores in the 20s as the average is about almost 31. What if a caucasian or asian gets into your top choice with a 31 and 3.5 while you have a 35 and 3.7 but get rejected? Would that be merited or is that racism too? Because that case would happen more often than any URM (with supposed low stats) taking your spot because of the large amount of caucasian and asian matriculants with varying scores at each medical school. I don't hear people cry about people of their races getting into their top choice with below average stats (which does happen bc averages are merely averages) even though that is more likely the case. Where is the cry for injustice there? If the admissions process for medical school was racist I think Glen Beck would be crying for blood and more people would want it to be changed. Ok, some of the policies are not giving a small advantage to everyone but if you give a small advantage to everyone for the necessity of our country's health how would anything change?

It would be foolish to think that ORMs do not experience racism too but which would you think is more prevalent, racism against the majority or a section of the minority that has been stigmatized since their were brought over to America on slave ships as inferior beings? Yes, Jewish people have experience the Holocaust, it was a travesty like many other abominable acts in history (Darfur comes to mind). However, Jewish people are well represented in medicine and their communities are not strong havens of the underserved. It was no more than 90 years ago that African Americans were brutally and savagely attacked by police dogs in the streets of the US and were not allowed into whites only schools. Thats basically two generations (a stretch) away from now. Do you think that America has progressed so far as to fully acknowledge African Americans and some other minorities as equals in two generations? Plus there is a large distrust in the African American community for doctors of other races (people posted links for it on one of these URM bashing threads so you can find it if you wish). I think to some extent it is warranted based on their lack of medical care now and their mistreatment in the past by medical providers (Tuskegee experiments on AAs).

Also, Affirmative Action policies only hold true for undergraduate admissions, not medical school admissions. LizzyM said in one of her posts that URM status may give you a little leeway and a look for an interview but it is up to you to perform to get that coveted acceptance. Adcoms aren't behind a curtain separating people by races and saying "Oh, we have our quota of Asians for today, let's add a few African Americans, reject the rest of the Asian applications from this week." That is ridiculous and illegal. I believe that these policies are necessary to some extent in this society. There are groups of people who historically lack medical care and don't always start on a level playing field. That is why URM status and disadvantaged status are taken into consideration. If you are poor, have endured hardship, are looking to work with the underserved communities and still made it to the point where you can be competitive with applicants of different backgrounds, I think that should deserve a few brownie points.

 

[zempa]

This is the part Zempa was complaining about, and the part that shows your ignorance.

Jewish people don't go home after a tough day, cook up some matzo balls, and say "well I had a tough day but God loves me and not him!" They are affected by their environment just like anyone else.

Furthermore, a lot of Jewish people are only ethnically Jewish and don't believe in God from a religious perspective.

In terms of religion, black communities and Africa have the highest religious percentage in the world, so the same argument could be turned around, that more black people know that God loves them.

thank you for explaining - this is exactly what I meant

 

[gplex86]

Jews have always valued education, especially professional education. It's part of our culture as it developed in Europe. We had our own communities, and for the most part we were left alone. The Holocaust only lasted a few decades, not long enough to wipe out these gains. American Jews had enough influence to argue on our behalf and regroup. Compared to African Americans we got off easy. They lost everything.

 

[yearn4ivy]

This is the part Zempa was complaining about, and the part that shows your ignorance.

Jewish people don't go home after a tough day, cook up some matzo balls, and say "well I had a tough day but God loves me and not him!" They are affected by their environment just like anyone else.

Furthermore, a lot of Jewish people are only ethnically Jewish and don't believe in God from a religious perspective.

In terms of religion, black communities and Africa have the highest religious percentage in the world, so the same argument could be turned around, that more black people know that God loves them.

The bible does not say that God chose Africa; rather the bible says God chose Israel. This way the distinction I was trying to make earlier on....jeez!

Three posts later and I'm still making clarifications...

 

[yearn4ivy]

thank you for explaining - this is exactly what I meant

You can read my reply below. This is exactly what I meant:
I think I should rephrase that then. I do not know what Jewish people consider themselves to be, but rather I am commenting on Christain evangelical perceptions of the Jewish people.

 

[thamsenman]

Boy, I'm not even sure I understand this thread anymore.

The train may very well have come off the tracks.

 

[yearn4ivy]

Jews have always valued education, especially professional education. It's part of our culture as it developed in Europe. We had our own communities, and for the most part we were left alone. The Holocaust only lasted a few decades, not long enough to wipe out these gains. American Jews had enough influence to argue on our behalf and regroup. Compared to African Americans we got off easy. They lost everything.

This is what I was attempting to get at. The differences in the experiences of these two presecuted groups.

 

[ButImLETired]

People who keep bitching about URM status: URMs AREN'T COMPETING AGAINST YOU, NO ONE IS TAKING YOUR SPOTS, WHAT URMs DO IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO YOUR CHANCE OF BEING ADMITTED.

Why oh why is this so hard to grasp?!

It's not about social justice, it's not about giving black people extra help, it's not about any of that. It's about needing more doctors of certain ethnicities because we can't only have Asian doctors- there are patients who aren't Asian out there in the US. There is an absurd disparity in how many Asian doctors there are compared to how many Asians there are in the country, vs Hispanic/AA doctors and Hispanic/AA patients. That's it.

If you're against the concept of helping your patients feel comfortable, well...cool. I wouldn't really mention that in the same breath as "I want to help people" at your interview.

and just to reiterate....YOU'RE NOT COMPETING FOR THE SAME SPOTS. GET OVER IT.

Unsurprisingly, most of these absurd URM-bashing threads appear toward the end of the interview season. Y'all look for an explanation for why you didn't get what you "deserved" even though you're a special little flower. It can't be that you're not as brilliant as you believed. It can't possibly be that you're not as good as everyone else who applied to the schools you like. It can't be that you're not as charming an interviewee as your mommy told you you are. It must be that YOUR spot was snatched by an upstart Hispanic billionaire who rode to his interview on a golden pony and who had a 2.0 and a 14 on the MCAT. Of course.

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

People who keep bitching about URM status: URMs AREN'T COMPETING AGAINST YOU, NO ONE IS TAKING YOUR SPOTS, WHAT URMs DO IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO YOUR CHANCE OF BEING ADMITTED.

Why oh why is this so hard to grasp?!

It's not about social justice, it's not about giving black people extra help, it's not about any of that. It's about needing more doctors of certain ethnicities because we can't only have Asian doctors- there are patients who aren't Asian out there in the US. There is an absurd disparity in how many Asian doctors there are compared to how many Asians there are in the country, vs Hispanic/AA doctors and Hispanic/AA patients. That's it.

If you're against the concept of helping your patients feel comfortable, well...cool. I wouldn't really mention that in the same breath as "I want to help people" at your interview.

and just to reiterate....YOU'RE NOT COMPETING FOR THE SAME SPOTS. GET OVER IT.

Unsurprisingly, most of these absurd URM-bashing threads appear toward the end of the interview season. Y'all look for an explanation for why you didn't get what you "deserved" even though you're a special little flower. It can't be that you're not as brilliant as you believed. It can't possibly be that you're not as good as everyone else who applied to the schools you like. It can't be that you're not as charming an interviewee as your mommy told you you are. It must be that YOUR spot was snatched by an upstart Hispanic billionaire who rode to his interview on a golden pony and who had a 2.0 and a 14 on the MCAT. Of course.

. Well said LET. When is this thread going to close. Nothing is being accomplished here besides more bickering and arguing....

 

[thamsenman]

Unsurprisingly, most of these absurd URM-bashing threads appear toward the end of the interview season. Y'all look for an explanation for why you didn't get what you "deserved" even though you're a special little flower. It can't be that you're not as brilliant as you believed. It can't possibly be that you're not as good as everyone else who applied to the schools you like. It can't be that you're not as charming an interviewee as your mommy told you you are. It must be that YOUR spot was snatched by an upstart Hispanic billionaire who rode to his interview on a golden pony and who had a 2.0 and a 14 on the MCAT. Of course.

I am certainly not competitive for the top schools with or without AA. I don't deserve to get any of them and probably just lucked out in getting interviews. This has nothing to do with me.

But I'm not sure I'd say the same thing about a 3.9/39 from Columbia. We look for explanations for that? Sure. That's a pretty remarkable feat.

My only point is that I don't think people should be competing within their own "types". People are individuals and should not be group-casted, and given special brownie points because they are or they aren't born a certain way. I don't think that's fair.

Boy, you sure like to go for these personal attacks in your angry rants.

 

[ButImLETired]

I am certainly not competitive for the top schools with or without AA. I don't deserve to get any of them and probably just lucked out in getting interviews. This has nothing to do with me.

But I'm not sure I'd say the same thing about a 3.9/39 from Columbia. We look for explanations for that? Sure. That's a pretty remarkable feat.

My only point is that I don't think people should be competing within their own "types". People are individuals and should not be group-casted, and given special brownie points because they are or they aren't born a certain way. I don't think that's fair.

Boy, you sure like to go for these personal attacks in your angry rants.

It wasn't a personal attack. I referred to no one specifically. Thus, not personal.

As for the bolded, it's naive to think you're not type-casted in everything you do. Colleges, unless they're public schools that accept everyone, try to have a class that is diverse in every possible way. This makes for a more conducive learning environment than a school in which everyone loves science, is white, and, say, plays an instrument. You learn nothing from being surrounded by people exactly like you.

Med schools have to do this as well, although in a smaller scale. A class in which everyone is exactly the same is boring, and it doesn't address the needs of a very diverse patient population- diverse not only racially, but socioeconomically, and in every other possible way. A class of 4.0/40 bio majors from the east coast who play the violin and have done 1.5 years of research and have a publication, have shadowed X number of doctors, and have volunteered for X number of hours, again, is boring. No one would want to go to a school like that because people are usually unhappy in those environments. Variety is the spice of life, it teaches you far more about tolerance, teamwork and communication skills (all three absolute requirements for a future physician, by the way) than being surrounded by people like you, and ultimately it makes the school look better.

This is why you essentially compete against your own type of person. There just can't be 100 of the same. I think med schools do a great job of taking people who are all smart and capable but who come from very different backgrounds. In my class, we have different majors, different ethnicities, different countries of origin, different socioeconomic strata, different undergrads, different interests...etc. We have do-gooders and people who want to become plastic surgeons. We have international health buffs and people who have done years of research. That's what makes my experience as great as it is. And more importantly, regardless of who our patient is, someone in my class can identify with him/her, which makes the interaction 100x more effective.

So yeah, complain all you want about URM status, but it has nothing to do with whether you'll get in or not. Same for the OP. He didn't not get in because there was a hispanic kid with a 3.0 and a 26, he didn't get in because there was another asian with a 3.9/39 who was more impressive in other ways or who fit the school better or who was defended more assiduously by the adcom member or who wrote a better personal statement or who took harder classes or whose LORs were better or whose undergrad was harder or whose life story was more compelling...I could go on. And yet, with ALL of these variables being at play, people will immediately say that it's because he wasn't URM, and if he'd been URM he would have gotten in. This is the reason why URMs on the forum get angry.

 

[dokein]

As for the bolded, it's naive to think you're not type-casted in everything you do. Colleges, unless they're public schools that accept everyone, try to have a class that is diverse in every possible way

With the exception of a few people such as the OP, it seems (to me at least) that most people who are arguing against AA believe that diversity should not be measured in terms of race, not that diversity should not be valued at all.

I think everybody is for medical schools admitting a class of diverse applicants--people who have participated in public health, in research, in business. People who demonstrate a strong affinity for working in underpriviledged areas through their extracurriculars activities and people who do not. Etc.

I fully understand that there are several variables going on: in addition to diversity of life experiences and cultural perspective, there is a matter of practical importance in serving those ethnic groups. Ethnicity is often valuable in determining these two categories.

If medical schools want to give an extra boost to someone who addresses these two issues in their primary or secondary essays, commensurate with how much they give an extra "boost" to other people with interesting experiences, then that is something I am willing to accept.

However, I strongly oppose having a checkbox where you're either URM or not.

I realize that LizzyM says that in her experience the checkbox may get you to the interview stage, where you're asked about the issue, but if someone is not willing to dedicate part of their primary or secondary essay to it, imo, it's not fair to grant some people interviews over others due to assumed experiences. Furthermore her experience is only from her school (as far as I know), and each school has their own policy on how much to consider it.

Lastly I do not think AA is morally correct but am willing to accept that medicine is often more what's practical than what's right.

 

[ButImLETired]

With the exception of a few people such as the OP, it seems (to me at least) that most people who are arguing against AA believe that diversity should not be measured in terms of race, not that diversity should not be valued at all.

I think everybody is for medical schools admitting a class of diverse applicants--people who have participated in public health, in research, in business. People who demonstrate a strong affinity for working in underpriviledged areas through their extracurriculars activities and people who do not. Etc.

I fully understand that there are several variables going on: in addition to diversity of life experiences and cultural perspective, there is a matter of practical importance in serving those ethnic groups. Ethnicity is often valuable in determining these two categories.

If medical schools want to give an extra boost to someone who addresses these two issues in their primary or secondary essays, commensurate with how much they give an extra "boost" to other people with interesting experiences, then that is something I am willing to accept.

However, I strongly oppose having a checkbox where you're either URM or not.

I realize that LizzyM says that in her experience the checkbox may get you to the interview stage, where you're asked about the issue, but if someone is not willing to dedicate part of their primary or secondary essay to it, imo, it's not fair to grant some people interviews over others due to assumed experiences. Furthermore her experience is only from her school (as far as I know), and each school has their own policy on how much to consider it.

Lastly I do not think AA is morally correct but am willing to accept that medicine is often more what's practical than what's right.

For what it's worth, there's no URM checkbox. Applications ask your ethnicity in the demographics section, and that's it. You can share that information, not share it, you can lie or tell the truth.


And again, it's not just about what you do, it's who you are. Socioeconomic diversity is the same way. Should we accept a lot of rich people who worked at a soup kitchen in lieu of accepting kids who actually grew up in poor neighborhoods? Should we just accept people who want to work with minorities who might come from a rich white background instead of someone who might "look the part"? There are studies that show that we make judgments based on the color of a person's skin and their facial features. We are more likely to trust those of our own race. This might not be pretty, or PC, or nice to think about, but it's the truth.

I have a friend who's blond, blue eyed and loves working with uninsured Hispanic patients. And she has told me many times that many of them don't trust her on principle. She's white, blond, pretty, and looks like she comes from privilege. Like it or not, the patients she loves to work with feel more comfortable around people who "look like them". These are the people we're trying to address. Considering the fact that we accept a VERY small number of minorities (there is also a very small amount of applicants) despite the "advantage" given by URM status, the fact that those ethnicities are STILL extremely under-represented while others are arguably over-represented, the fact that our med schools still have an extremely high graduation rate (indicating that the caliber of students is high regardless), and the fact that for the most part like competes with like, there is NO REASON to have this URM debate all the time.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Okay, this thread is a train wreck and I want nothing to do with the main topic. However, these are ridiculous statements... and am honestly, offended at the context (being Jewish)... yes, African Americans have had it tough (so have many races through history and that should in no way be downplayed)

However, to insinuate that Jews "got off easy" is ABSURD and offensive... maybe people forget about what the signs use to say in the US "No Blacks No Jews No Dogs" (or did we forget?)

I am IN NO WAY EVEN GOING TO TRY AND MAKE COMPARISONS between African American and Jewish persecution because that is an exercise in futility.... but I am appalled to see students thinking that "Jews had advocates and private communities they were fine" (we had no advocates for most of our previous (and current history).... hence, why Jews have been a scapegoat throughout history

This is what I was attempting to get at. The differences in the experiences of these two presecuted groups.

Originally Posted by gplex86
Jews have always valued education, especially professional education. It's part of our culture as it developed in Europe. We had our own communities, and for the most part we were left alone. The Holocaust only lasted a few decades, not long enough to wipe out these gains. American Jews had enough influence to argue on our behalf and regroup. Compared to African Americans we got off easy. They lost everything.

 

[dokein]

This is why you essentially compete against your own type of person. There just can't be 100 of the same.

Let me see if I can summarize your argument, and make my own.

Let's say, to way oversimplify, there's two categories that colleges look at:

1. Good standard app (high GPA, high MCAT, typical ECs, typical life experiences)
2. Good non-standard app (variable GPA, variable MCAT, unique ECs, unique life experiences)

For every ethnicity, asian or white or URM or martian, there are applicants that fall into group 1, and applicants that fall into group 2. If you're in group 1 you compete against those in group 1, and if you're in group 2 you compete against those in group 2.

Group 2, by its nature, tends to have lower 'stats' than group 1.

For URMs, it is rare to get into medical school. Period. It is even more rare to be a URM in group 1. Thus, the average admitted URM will tend to be in group 2, which means lower stats.

However it is false to say that the average URM in group 2 is less qualified, because they could very well have the same stats as non-URMs in group 2.

Thus, there is no racial discrimination.

---

I somewhat agree with this argument, except that to be an Asian in group 2 you REALLY, REALLY have to show it in your personal statement and interview. In contrast, at least at some schools, this standard is lowered for URMs--checking that box means at least partially assumed to have different life experiences which will affect your outlook as a physician and who you are as a student.

The UCs have recently moved to a holistic interpretation of the undergraduate application, and yet the proportion of Asian and white admitted students are not the same. That's because the stereotype that all Asians have overlording parents and they go to class and study and sleep is not true. It's a stereotype.

Secondly, having a box also leaves it open to interpretation just how much of a 'boost' an applicant gets, rather than making it obvious it's a matter of life experiences. It also--perhaps inadvertently--says that the experience of an African immigrant is a priori more valuable than that of a North Korean refugee. This is not true and should not be treated as such.

I also do not think that it is treated purely as a method of increasing class diversity. The use of URM in medical school applications is, to my knowledge, because URM areas are underserved and URM people better relate to their respective minority's doctors.

This argument is--I'm really tired of typing.

 

[dokein]

For what it's worth, there's no URM checkbox. Applications ask your ethnicity in the demographics section, and that's it. You can share that information, not share it, you can lie or tell the truth.


And again, it's not just about what you do, it's who you are. Socioeconomic diversity is the same way. Should we accept a lot of rich people who worked at a soup kitchen in lieu of accepting kids who actually grew up in poor neighborhoods? Should we just accept people who want to work with minorities who might come from a rich white background instead of someone who might "look the part"? There are studies that show that we make judgments based on the color of a person's skin and their facial features. We are more likely to trust those of our own race. This might not be pretty, or PC, or nice to think about, but it's the truth.

1. Medical schools will always have an extremely high graduation rate because the quality of accepted applicants far exceeds the quality necessary to graduate (in most schools). Thus if URM are less qualified, it wouldn't influence graduation rates by much if at all.

2. Please introduce me to your friend. j/k

3. There is a URM checkbox.

4. I understand that there are many studies showing that black people are more comfortable with black doctors, at least initially or before meeting the doctor (e.g. which doctor would you choose? surveys, etc.) However to me this does not justify AA at the medical school level, because I believe AA is fundamentally racial discrimination.

I do not believe that practicality justifies what is inherently morally wrong.

That is all, I doubt one of us will convince the other.

 

[medactar]

Did this thread just go off on a different tangent? Suddenly we've switched from a debate about the fairness of URMs getting a boost to one on affirmative action. You guys arguing know there's a distinction? The whole point of wanting more URMs is, as has been stated several times in this thread already, so that there are a greater number of racially diverse doctors serving a racially diverse patient population. So medical schools could care less if the URM student has the title to 3 ferrari's in his name and an island in the carribean. Of course, coming from a disadvantaged background is also covered on your amcas application. Those are separate issues and shouldn't be confused. Both give you benefits independently.

I find this thread interesting for the few gems I've read, but mostly it's turned into an ugly name-calling back and forth session. Here's what I've come to realize:

Getting into a top ranked medical school is about being unique in some way. Being a URM guarantees nothing, and if you look at any of the top medical classes, you'll see 5 Asians for every 1 African American. So no, you aren't losing your spots to the urms. Of course, it's a lot harder to stand out if you're an Asian with a 35+, 3.8+ then if you're African-American or Latino with those numbers. Whether that's "fair" is another issue. Medical schools are interested in building a diverse class and even if they accepted every Asian with stellar numbers, there would be many left in the dust. It's unfortunate, but your life is probably not going to suffer because of it. The OP himself got into 4 medical schools and he could very well surpass other students at schools from which he never received an interview invite.

One point I thought was interesting was someone saying that much of your intelligence is out of your control and any advantages you receive from that are seemingly just as unfair as having urm status. While the poster seemed to be joking and no one really gave his post much thought, I thought it was a legit point. Adcoms are looking to build a class of doctors that will best serve the interests of the community. You need smart doctors, you need compassionate doctors, and you need ethnically diverse doctors. All of these things are important to some degree and just because you can't control some of them doesn't mean adcoms shouldn't consider them.

Though I don't agree with all points, I enjoyed reading your post.

It's not about social justice, it's not about giving black people extra help, it's not about any of that. It's about needing more doctors of certain ethnicities because we can't only have Asian doctors- there are patients who aren't Asian out there in the US.

I don't mind learning a thing or two. Please let me know where you got this information. I think that AA is absolutely about social justice! Please point me to info that says otherwise (I like to read )

Problems such as the disparities in the % of physicians of a certain ethnicity compared to the general population would equalize as an effect of social justice.

But since most Americans don't really want true social justice when it comes to ethnicity and would never vote for policies to correct social ills, we are stuck with the second best thing which is AA.

 

[medactar]

4. I understand that there are many studies showing that black people are more comfortable with black doctors, at least initially or before meeting the doctor (e.g. which doctor would you choose? surveys, etc.)

I find it interesting that people always bring up that some black people are more comfortable with black doctors. But they leave out that white doctors have more negative opinions of black patients even when socio-economics, education and health insurance status are controlled.

Physicians are largely altuiristic (in theory) and the fact that these people who for the most part hold OVERTLY egalitarian values are so internally biased is a sad indication of the state of our nation.

 

[ButImLETired]

Though I don't agree with all points, I enjoyed reading your post.


I don't mind learning a thing or two. Please let me know where you got this information. I think that AA is absolutely about social justice! Please point me to info that says otherwise (I like to read )

Problems such as the disparities in the % of physicians of a certain ethnicity compared to the general population would equalize as an effect of social justice.

But since most Americans don't really want true social justice when it comes to ethnicity and would never vote for policies to correct social ills, we are stuck with the second best thing which is AA.

I guess we interpret social justice differently (or I explained it poorly). What I meant to say is that it's not about "owing" a certain race a "favor". At least in medicine, that's not the purpose of the URM thing at all. That's why they're called "underrepresented in medicine". It's because they are quite literally under-represented in medicine. That has nothing to do with "owing" spots or trying to right a wrong a few hundreds of years in the making, though it can certainly be argued that the ultimate effect is to do just that. I guess I just don't see med schools having some kind of social agenda because of which they're trying to do certain minority groups a solid because they have a history of being discriminated against. They're trying to fill a need for physicians that represent the HUGE number of patients out there of certain ethnicities. Those groups are statistically under-represented, and since the purpose of med schools is to fill the need for physicians, that's what they're trying to do. If there was a massive influx of, I don't know, Korean immigrants throughout the US and suddenly very few Korean applicants were around, they too would be recruited and sought after.

As for the checkbox, all I know is that there ABSOLUTELY was not one when I applied. I don't know if the app was different this year. I wrote in my ethnicity. It was interpreted differently by different med schools, and I wasn't viewed as URM in all places. I have trouble imagining how there could be a checkbox now since med schools essentially decide what they think is under-represented, but I guess I didn't apply this year so I have no idea.