My story

[i want out]

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ok, but there must be reasons for that. it's not always the case that person with most experience (a double boarded O4) gets put in charge. suppose that person is a real introvert , can't lead, can't make good decisions at a departmental level. Suppose that O-5 is really good with people, can make good decisions, etc etc.

In any case, that O-5 can't walk into an OR and tell that O-4 surgeon where to make an incision, right??? In other words, that O-4 surgeon has situational rank in that OR, during that surgery, right?

(Of course, I'm aware that the O-5, being the dept head, can make policy decisions that obstructs the O-4's performance).

I am going to have to agree with IgD on this one.
you are making a leap of faith that doesn't fit into the military. You are assuming that reason has any place in the military decision making regarding who is in charge.

Your example about the OR with an O5 non surgeon telling an O4 surgeon what to do is fraught with subtle power issues.
The military has addressed this in a more common military situation.
eg E5 guard standing gate guard notices that O6 is driving erraticly as he pulls up to gate, E5 also notices smell of alcohol and that O6 is slurring speech, and demonstrating many signs of being absolutely sloshed.

E5 has positional authority in that situation to arrest O6 and charge O6 with driving while intoxicated.
If E5 is naive enough to believe that he will survive that arrest without harming his career, then he is an idiot. E5 will also likely feel the heat of several in his chain of command because he is 'not a team player'.
It may take the form of worse duty schedule, less or no more special treatment, lack of tolerance for anything that is not absolutely correct to the letter of military law or tradition.

Back to the OR where O5 is telling O4 that he should be doing surgery this way or that. If O4 pulls positional authority, then he is likely to find that O5 is backstabbing him at every chance, 'volunteering' him for deployments, or difficult assignments etc.

there are at least 2 important lessons to learn in the .mil from this.

1: your ability to reason will play no part in the militarys ultimate decision because there are likely far more variables than you have considered that play into the decision.

2: don't underestimate the ability of anyone, no matter what their position in the rank structure to make your life miserable.


i want out (of IRR)

 

[DrMetal]

E5 has positional authority in that situation to arrest O6 and charge O6 with driving while intoxicated.
If E5 is naive enough to believe that he will survive that arrest without harming his career, then he is an idiot. E5 will also likely feel the heat of several in his chain of command because he is 'not a team player'.
It may take the form of worse duty schedule, less or no more special treatment, lack of tolerance for anything that is not absolutely correct to the letter of military law or tradition.

This is absolutely untrue (I'm not a newbie to the military, have 7 years in, am an O-3 in the line Navy). In fact, I know E-5/E-6 MPs that have been in situations like this. Those that did bust the offending officer were commended, even awarded with time off ('special liberty'). Most of the MPs (at least here on my base) mean business, and they're quick to bust anyone, even an admiral, if they're clearly violating the law. And there's hell to pay if they take any repurcussions out on each other, so they're careful not to. Sometimes, they even overcompensate in the other direction, by awarding the MP, as described above.

Now, I don't know much about the MC, you guys are the experts . . . in other parts of the Navy, I see some 'revenge tactics', like you describe (sending people out on deployments, increased hours, etc). But I've seen it backfire on people too . . . the subordinate raises a greivance, the superior is questioned as to why he's sending the member out on another deployment (after having just come back from one), the superior is then scrutinized heavily, and the superior then gets in trouble. I've seen it happen. So the military is becoming more sensetive about such 'revenge' actions (because they draw so much negative attention).

 

[i want out]

This is absolutely untrue (I'm not a newbie to the military, have 7 years in, am an O-3 in the line Navy). In fact, I know E-5/E-6 MPs that have been in situations like this. Those that did bust the offending officer were commended, even awarded with time off ('special liberty'). Most of the MPs (at least here on my base) mean business, and they're quick to bust anyone, even an admiral, if they're clearly violating the law. And there's hell to pay if they take any repurcussions out on each other, so they're careful not to. Sometimes, they even overcompensate in the other direction, by awarding the MP, as described above.

Now, I don't know much about the MC, you guys are the experts . . . in other parts of the Navy, I see some 'revenge tactics', like you describe (sending people out on deployments, increased hours, etc). But I've seen it backfire on people too . . . the subordinate raises a greivance, the superior is questioned as to why he's sending the member out on another deployment (after having just come back from one), the superior is then scrutinized heavily, and the superior then gets in trouble. I've seen it happen. So the military is becoming more sensetive about such 'revenge' actions (because they draw so much negative attention).

I appreciate your service, and you obviously have more tolerance for the navy than I did, as I got out after my 4 years as soon as possible.

But the situations that I describe are very command dependent, and whether you will be hosing your next fitrep, or getting a com are highly dependent on the command climate.

I have seen SWO's at the O3-O4 level torpedo one another for no other reason than to make themselves look better.

I have also been in a command climate that nailed people to the wall for not being 'team players'

The flip side, is that if you have worked the system to your benefit, you can get away with anything.

I should also add that my time with the Line Navy was only one command and I was told by every single line officer that I worked with, that it was the worst command they had been at for their entire career whether they were in for 8-10 years, or 18+ (and no, I will not identify that command on this board until my time in IRR is done, and I have resigned my commission.)

i want out(of IRR)

 

[IgD]

Thanks, for NOT answering the question. And spare us the "holier than thou" attitude.

I'm sorry for coming across offensive. My comment captures the frustration I had dealing with the "backstabbing" that I Want Out described. Another way to look at it is political/passive aggressive behavior. It could range from being snubbed, playing favorites, being sent condescending emails that were CC'd to others, having your outpatient schedule messed with and making it difficult to take leave. In the more extreme cases it could involve being deployed or being given a subtle adverse fitrep without explanation. I remember once a Navy O6 made a comment to the effect of "I'll show him" in response to an issue that was brought up by another medical officer. Another situation I witnessed was an academy grad surgical specialist who was downgraded on his fitrep from "early promote" to "must promote" when he was in zone from CDR. No one would ever give him a good explanation for the downgrade. Not surprisingly he was passed over for CDR. Wonder who he rubbed the wrong way to get that kind of treatment?

DrMedal, I saw this behavior a lot in Navy Medicine but it was pretty much non-existent in the Marine Corps. I observed the Marines to be very people and mission oriented. I had an interesting discussion about this with a colleague who was a former Navy line officer. He told me the difference is the warfighter / operational mentality that is missing from hospital environment.

 

[DrMetal]

ok, understood, thanks for the input.

A lot of the things you seem to be describing (office politics, getting snubbed, etc) occur in many workplaces . . . so I'm not sure if it's fair to blame milmed for such practices . . but whatever . . . you just have to deal and figure a way to roll with things.

a couple specific things though:

regarding deployments: You can actually get in a lot of trouble for deploying someone, because you like/dislike him or her. The trouble is proving that there was favoritsm . . .which actually isn't that hard to prove in the military, provided witnessess, emails, etc (so say my legal buddies, all you need is circumstantial evidence, and you can pin your boss to the wall).

regarding fitreps/evals: you do have the recourse of filing a 'statement' with your fitrep (did you the surg spec. in your example do so?). 9 times outta 10, when the member does that, the senior rater changes his/her tune and writes up a more favorable fitrep! In any case, if you do write up a 'statement', and you make sure that it gets to PERS in time for board, the board will take that seriously into consideration.

regarding promotions: i thought MDs promote almost automatically, all the up to O-6, and that there's no limit on O-6s in the MC (or DC for that matter), true?

 

[edmadison]

In the Army they quote similar numbers. I believe that the promotion rate to 05 is between 70 and 80% while the promotion to 0-6 is around 60%. This is somewhat misleading, however because all physicians are lumped together, regardless of training. The promotion rates are much high for residency-trained, board-certified physicians. In the current environment with poor retention, it would be almost unthinkable not to promote to O-5 for a BC physicians.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Welcome to the "other side," IgD. Feels good, doesn't it?

 

[IgD]

Welcome to the "other side," IgD. Feels good, doesn't it?

It's nice to tell my story. I think a lot of people including other civilian physicians can't relate to the stuff we've experienced. At the same time, it's really discouraging because military physicians, service members and their families deserve better. I think I could have made a career out of the military but it just didn't work out.

 

[BomberDoc]

When I took HPSP, I thought it would make sense to do an Air Force residency, possibly fellowship, and do my first utilization tour before making the decision whether to stay or go... that would have taken 8-10 years. I knew almost immediately after coming on active duty that nothing could keep me in this corrupt system. Favoritism, reprisal, and outright abuse is rampant in milmed. In my view, the line is much different. I worked as a SME for a line combat unit for my first few years and didn't see much bad stuff. Unfortunately, however, I worked in the medgroup and got to see all of the politics, backstabbing, and leadership vacuum. When I had some experience under my belt and was PCA'd to the medgroup to be the SGP, it was like the gates to hell opened. Fraud, waste, abuse, fraternization, sexual harrassment, discrimination, O-5 and O-6 openly doing no work - bragging about it, never around, not charging leave, you name it. It was blatant. A buddy of mine worked in legal and told me that more complaints came out of the MDG than from the rest of the groups on base combined. Interestingly, however, none of the MDG senior leadership ever got reprimanded, punished, relieved from duty (except for the SQ/CC who tried to commit suicide), and continued their open flaunting of the UCMJ. An O-5 nurse told me once that she was untouchable at that rank and that no complaints would be investigated against O-5 and above. From what I saw, she was right. Disgusting.

 

[crazybrancato]

When I took HPSP, I thought it would make sense to do an Air Force residency, possibly fellowship, and do my first utilization tour before making the decision whether to stay or go... that would have taken 8-10 years. I knew almost immediately after coming on active duty that nothing could keep me in this corrupt system. Favoritism, reprisal, and outright abuse is rampant in milmed. In my view, the line is much different. I worked as a SME for a line combat unit for my first few years and didn't see much bad stuff. Unfortunately, however, I worked in the medgroup and got to see all of the politics, backstabbing, and leadership vacuum. When I had some experience under my belt and was PCA'd to the medgroup to be the SGP, it was like the gates to hell opened. Fraud, waste, abuse, fraternization, sexual harrassment, discrimination, O-5 and O-6 openly doing no work - bragging about it, never around, not charging leave, you name it. It was blatant. A buddy of mine worked in legal and told me that more complaints came out of the MDG than from the rest of the groups on base combined. Interestingly, however, none of the MDG senior leadership ever got reprimanded, punished, relieved from duty (except for the SQ/CC who tried to commit suicide), and continued their open flaunting of the UCMJ. An O-5 nurse told me once that she was untouchable at that rank and that no complaints would be investigated against O-5 and above. From what I saw, she was right. Disgusting.

how could you know all this right away? it takes at least a few years to come to all of the realizations

look, everything you described above happens in the line (to what extent, better or worse than milmed, who knows?! that can be argued either way). that's why we have a JAG corps.

and at every rank, there are those who think they're untouchable. take for instance the butter bars coming out of the academies. "My grandpa was an Admiral/General, so was my dad, that makes me badass!!" it's fun watching them fall on their faces.

this nurse O-5, was she hot?

 

[BomberDoc]

this nurse O-5, was she hot?

I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

 

[IgD]

When I took HPSP, I thought it would make sense to do an Air Force residency, possibly fellowship, and do my first utilization tour before making the decision whether to stay or go... that would have taken 8-10 years. I knew almost immediately after coming on active duty that nothing could keep me in this corrupt system. Favoritism, reprisal, and outright abuse is rampant in milmed. In my view, the line is much different. I worked as a SME for a line combat unit for my first few years and didn't see much bad stuff. Unfortunately, however, I worked in the medgroup and got to see all of the politics, backstabbing, and leadership vacuum. When I had some experience under my belt and was PCA'd to the medgroup to be the SGP, it was like the gates to hell opened. Fraud, waste, abuse, fraternization, sexual harrassment, discrimination, O-5 and O-6 openly doing no work - bragging about it, never around, not charging leave, you name it. It was blatant. A buddy of mine worked in legal and told me that more complaints came out of the MDG than from the rest of the groups on base combined. Interestingly, however, none of the MDG senior leadership ever got reprimanded, punished, relieved from duty (except for the SQ/CC who tried to commit suicide), and continued their open flaunting of the UCMJ. An O-5 nurse told me once that she was untouchable at that rank and that no complaints would be investigated against O-5 and above. From what I saw, she was right. Disgusting.

I saw some weird stuff too. One of my female colleagues told me she had been propositioned twice within a short time after she PCS'd to her new hospital. There always seemed to be a backdrop of drama and interpersonal conflict.

 

[Mirror Form]

Now, I don't know much about the MC, you guys are the experts . . . in other parts of the Navy, I see some 'revenge tactics', like you describe (sending people out on deployments, increased hours, etc). But I've seen it backfire on people too . . . the subordinate raises a greivance, the superior is questioned as to why he's sending the member out on another deployment (after having just come back from one), the superior is then scrutinized heavily, and the superior then gets in trouble. I've seen it happen. So the military is becoming more sensetive about such 'revenge' actions (because they draw so much negative attention).

One thing you need to take into account when comparing O4 docs and E5's is how much more the O4 doctor can get completely screwed over.

That E5 guarding the gate didn't sacrifice ten years of his life to be there. Now imagine you're a physician and you end up pissing off your command, and get transfered to a location where your skills atrophy for four years 😱

Doctors also typically owe much longer commitments. So whereas that E5 will be in a bad location for 2 to 4 years before he can get out, a lot of physicians who did fellowships will owe 6-8. Theres just a lot more to worry about when you have ten years of training at stake.