Myth Buster - Job Location

[BU Pathology]

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Myth Buster - Job location


One of the recurring myths on this board states that jobs are not available in desirable locations. It is always useful to have actual data to frame the discussion, rather than anonymous internet postings. The Association of American Medical Colleges has prepared a workbook to show where physicians practice compared to where they did their training. The specific metric is the percentage of active physicians who are currently practicing in the same state where they did their training. The training is considered both residency and fellowship, in other words if you did a fellowship in the same state where you did your residency you would not be considered as being an active physician in that state.

The data demonstrate that pathology residents and fellows frequently practice where they have done their training. In fact, as a pathologist you are MORE likely to practice in the state where you did your training compared to other specialties such as dermatology or radiology.

Students considering a career in pathology should not be discouraged by unfounded internet rumors. The specific data is found in Figure 10 (attached), and the entire workbook may be found at this location:

https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=160&prv_id=190

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Professor and Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

 

[2121115]

Also noted in that same report are that there are about the same number of pathology first year residents as orthopedic surgery and cardiology fellows. We should be closer to nephrology and PM&R.

 

[exPCM]

Dr. Remick,
That data is old IMO and does not account for the vast increase in pathology residents that has occurred since pathology switched from a 5 year to 4 year residency. I have previously posted the data but if I recall correctly we now produce about 25% more residents per year than back in 2003-2004.

Some pathology residents may be able to get a job in Boston where your program is but I see that some of your highest paid pathologists make 153K-166K per year: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2007/042/794/2007-042794543-04122a4f-9.pdf - SEE PAGE 29

This is lower pay in Boston than a large portion of the Boston police department
and fire department: http://www.bostonherald.com/projects/payroll/boston/total.DESC// Sort by TOTAL DESCENDING on upper right.

So being able to work as pathology faculty for 120K-150K in Boston (If one of your highest paid is at 153K I would not be surprised if other pathology faculty in the Boston area were at 120K or less) is not an indicator of a good job market for a field requiring at least one or two fellowships these days.

The average Primary care doc is now at 186K: http://blog.mgma.com/blog/bid/24509/Key-findings-from-MGMA-s-physician-compensation-survey so the salaries I see in your group are pitiful IMO except for the group of four who appear to be above 250K (pages 26 and 29).

 

[2121115]

As was mentioned in another post the AAMC salary data doesn't reflect many people's experience with academic pathology salaries. It may be "total benefits package" thing where health insurance, etc is totaled up to 170 or whatever its that they say is 50th percentile for associate professors, but it is not take home salary. I agree exPCM.

 

[ReedSternburg]

As was mentioned in another post the AAMC salary data doesn't reflect many people's experience with academic pathology salaries. It may be "total benefits package" thing where health insurance, etc is totaled up to 170 or whatever its that they say is 50th percentile for associate professors, but it is not take home salary. I agree exPCM.

My info is a few years out of date, but several of my fellow residents at one of the Harvard programs stayed on as attendings and started at 150k. I heard similar stories about Tufts.

 

[raider]

So called academic institutions have A PARASITIC RELATIONSHIP with surgical pathologists (especially junior ones).

They use them to sign-out vast number of surgical pathology cases (hence incurring the medicolegal risk) while their BILLING IS FUNNELED OFF TO RESEARCHER TYPE /ADMIN TYPE PATHOLOGISTS (NOT SIGNING OUT CASES AKA PSEUOPATHOLOGISTS) WHO ARE IN CAHOOTS WITH THE HOSP ADMIN MBA TYPES TO KEEP THE SALARIES LOW WHILE SIMULATANEOUSLY INCREASING THE WORKLOAD.

IT IS IN THE GREAT INTEREST OF THESE ADMIN TYPE PSEUDOPATHOLOGISTS TO KEEP ON SAYING FALSE THINGS ABOUT THE JOB MARKET SO THEY CAN KEEP ON FEEDING OF THEIR STEADY SUPPLY OF JUNIOR SLAVES. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME MENTALITY THAT THE "OLD CROOK PARTNER PATHOLOGISTS" HAVE IN PRIVATE PRACTICE.

SAME DISEASE, DIFFERENT PRESENTATION.

PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!

OTHERWISE DIE POOR,STUPID AND EXPLOITED.

YOUR CHOICE!!!

LOW SALARIES, INCREASED WORKLOAD, EXPLOITATION BY HOSPITAL ADMIN, LOW RESPECT, POD LABS , EXPLOITATION BY OTHER MEDICAL SPECIALISTS ETC. ARE NOT THE DISEASE THEY ARE SYMPTOMS OF A DISEASE.

THE DISEASE IS OVERSUPPLY OF PATHOLOGISTS IN A SATURATED MARKET FOR THE VESTED INTERESTS OF A FEW.

YOU HAVE BEEN MADE EXPENDABLE BY THE GLUT AND NOONE LISTENS TO EXPENDABLES; THEY ARE ONLY TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AS IS THE CURRENT SITUATION.

ASK UR SELF ONE SIMPLE QUESTION:WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT DERMATOLOGY THAT THEY COMMAND HIGH SALARIES????? AND YOU WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER:NEGOTIATING POWER DUE TO LIMITED SUPPLY AND HIGH DEMAND.

 

[Thrombus]

Using Dr. Remick's Data:

Orthopedics: Approximately 1.5 times as many jobs as pathology (page 7). Same number of residency spots as pathology. (page 17)

Intuitively: shorter career than pathology.


Does anyone see a problem here?

 

[TX515]

Likewise, is it more difficult to get a job outside of the state you do your residency in compared to other specialties?

 

[Sulfinator]

Likewise, is it more difficult to get a job outside of the state you do your residency in compared to other specialties?

I started another thread to specifically address this topic. That way maybe we can have some other discussion going that isn't titled or dominated by the theme of "bad job market."

 

[lipomas]

Dr. Remick,
That data is old IMO and does not account for the vast increase in pathology residents that has occurred since pathology switched from a 5 year to 4 year residency. I have previously posted the data but if I recall correctly we now produce about 25% more residents per year than back in 2003-2004.
.

Now you're worried about data being too old? 🙄

 

[sohsie]

So called academic institutions have A PARASITIC RELATIONSHIP with surgical pathologists (especially junior ones).

They use them to sign-out vast number of surgical pathology cases (hence incurring the medicolegal risk) while their BILLING IS FUNNELED OFF TO RESEARCHER TYPE /ADMIN TYPE PATHOLOGISTS (NOT SIGNING OUT CASES AKA PSEUOPATHOLOGISTS) WHO ARE IN CAHOOTS WITH THE HOSP ADMIN MBA TYPES TO KEEP THE SALARIES LOW WHILE SIMULATANEOUSLY INCREASING THE WORKLOAD.

IT IS IN THE GREAT INTEREST OF THESE ADMIN TYPE PSEUDOPATHOLOGISTS TO KEEP ON SAYING FALSE THINGS ABOUT THE JOB MARKET SO THEY CAN KEEP ON FEEDING OF THEIR STEADY SUPPLY OF JUNIOR SLAVES. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME MENTALITY THAT THE "OLD CROOK PARTNER PATHOLOGISTS" HAVE IN PRIVATE PRACTICE.

SAME DISEASE, DIFFERENT PRESENTATION.

PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!

OTHERWISE DIE POOR,STUPID AND EXPLOITED.

YOUR CHOICE!!!

LOW SALARIES, INCREASED WORKLOAD, EXPLOITATION BY HOSPITAL ADMIN, LOW RESPECT, POD LABS , EXPLOITATION BY OTHER MEDICAL SPECIALISTS ETC. ARE NOT THE DISEASE THEY ARE SYMPTOMS OF A DISEASE.

THE DISEASE IS OVERSUPPLY OF PATHOLOGISTS IN A SATURATED MARKET FOR THE VESTED INTERESTS OF A FEW.

YOU HAVE BEEN MADE EXPENDABLE BY THE GLUT AND NOONE LISTENS TO EXPENDABLES; THEY ARE ONLY TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AS IS THE CURRENT SITUATION.

ASK UR SELF ONE SIMPLE QUESTION:WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT DERMATOLOGY THAT THEY COMMAND HIGH SALARIES????? AND YOU WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER:NEGOTIATING POWER DUE TO LIMITED SUPPLY AND HIGH DEMAND.

Wow. I didnt think your all-capitals posts could look any more annoying, but you managed to exceed expectations by turning them red. I can't wait to see your next move to make them even more annoying, but I'm just afraid that my eyeballs will burst.

However, I am puzzled by one point you made. While it may seem on the surface that dermatologists command higher salaries than pathologists because of low supply and high demand, we all know that the real reason. Some path residents wear scrubs and listen to prohibited tunes on headphones while working, ruining the job market for everyone else. Pathstudent wrote it himself numerous times, so it must be true. I think they are going to put that fact in the next edition of Robbins, so you are excused for not being aware of that this time.

[/sarcasm off].

 

[Art]

It is important to recognize that there are several dire situations within the world directly related to the oversupply of pathologists. Please read these carefully, this oversupply has consequences far beyond just pathology.

Global warming. In my experience, the oversupply of pathologists has increased the weight of the Earth. As a result of this increased weight, the Earth is falling closer to the sun. As anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of astronomy knows, planets closer to the sun are warmer. It logically follows that too many pathologists are the direct cause of global warming.

No decrease in cancer mortality. There have been newspaper articles about how most cancers have not been cured, despite vast federal funding and President Nixon’s proclaimed war on cancer. With too many pathologists, there is an excess capacity to diagnose cancer. All these pathologists need to have something to do, so they sit around and look for cancer. If we had the same number of pathologists as on December 23, 1971 when the war on cancer was declared, the number of diagnosed cancers would be considerably less.

Surplus internet postings. No one enjoys reading drivel on the internet, yet it abounds. Based on my objective data, a substantial portion of the unintelligent postings on the internet have been made by pathologists. If these pathologists had real work to do, like diagnosing cancer, they would not have time to post things on the internet.

Traffic congestion. Most major cities have horrible traffic and most pathologists want to practice in larger cities. With the oversupply of pathologists they are snarling traffic as they drive around looking for work.

Increase in unemployment. It is absolutely clear that the surplus of pathologists has caused unemployment in the United States to skyrocket, since pathologists account for ALL of the newly unemployed since the economy crashed in 2008. Every single person filing an unemployment claim since October, 2008 has completed a pathology residency. Additionally, more than 80% of the new unemployed did one pathology fellowship, and more than 50% did 2 fellowships. Our economy will never recover until these pathologists quite driving around and actually find jobs.

Ruining healthcare reform. Liberal Democrats do not like the healthcare reform bill, and the vast majority of Republicans hate the bill. The surplus of pathologists caused the healthcare reform bill to be badly written. This is because most pathologists do not write very well since they mostly do synoptic reporting (which don't make good writers). If pathologists weren't spending so much time looking for work and more time working on their writing skills, we would have a better healthcare bill.

Of course these are the obvious ones, literally dozens of other significant social problems are directly related to the oversupply (don’t get me started on halitosis).

Sarcasm off

 

[yaah]

lol. Actually, pathologists could cure cancer by simply diagnosing everything as "atypical, favor reactive" or something like that.

 

[exPCM]

Now you're worried about data being too old? 🙄

HAHA. You are funny.
The fact that the pathology job market sucks is old news and the old data is still valid today - nothing has changed.

However the explosion in the numbers of pathology resident is fairly new.
It was discussed in this thread and is worse now: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=452524
We have had a previously incredible number of 500+ path residents per year now for 5 years in a row: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf see page 15 after being in the high 300's to ~410 prior to that. This is a newer unfavorable development.

 

[raider]

Copied from a pathology blog:

"On the contrary, they have increased the
number of residents per year. For example, if your program has 20 ACGMEfunded residency spots, it probably switched from having 4 residents per year (4 residents × 5 years = 20) to having 5 residents per year (5 residents × 4years = 20). Therefore, your program is graduating one extra resident per year, which ultimately increases the total graduating rate by 20%".WAS THERE A 20% INCREASE IN JOBS!!!!!HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE REASON WHY SOME ACADEMICS KEEP ON PERPETUATING THE "MYTH OF A DECENT JOB MARKET" IS VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND:

1. ACADEMIC JOBS HAVE A LOUSY PAY.

2. ACADEMIC JOBS REQUIRE YOU TO SIGN-OUT MULTIPLE CASES (BECAUSE EVERY ACADEMIC DEPARTMENT HAS SOME LAZY/LOOSER RESEARCHER TYPE/ADMIN TYPE PATHOLOGISTS WHO CANNOT SIGN-OUT BUT ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING THE PAYCHECK FROM YOUR WORK) AND ALSO PUBLISH SOME BS PAPERS.

3. HENCE THEY ARE ALWAYS ON THE LOOK OUT FOR SOME SUCKER WHO THEY CAN EXPLOIT BY OFFERING LOW PAY.

4. THESE SUCKERS AFTER A YEAR OR TWO REALIZE HOW THEY ARE BEING SHAMELESSLY EXPLOITED AND START LOOKING FOR ANY DECENT PAYING PRIVATE PRACTICE JOB .

5. SUCKER ULTIMATELY FINDS SOMETHING BETTER AND LEAVES (AFTER TWO YEARS OR SO OF ABUSE).

6 .ACADEMIC DEPARTMENT NEED MORE SUCKERS AT LOW PAY.

7. BEST SOURCE ARE SUCKER RESIDENTS ALREADY TRAINING IN THE PROGRAM.

8. HENCE BETTER TO HAVE MORE RESIDENTS.

9. DUE TO SURPLUS THEY WONT FIND A JOB ELSEWHERE AND WILL SETTLE FOR THE CRUMMY ACADEMIC JOB.

10. CYCLE CONTINUES.

PS. THE "CROOKED OLD POOR DIAGNOSTICIAN PATHOLOGISTS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE" ALSO HAVE THE SAME THINKING AND ARE VERY HAPPY WITH THESE UNSCRUPULOUS ACADEMICS AS THEY GET TO EXPLOIT THE "SUCKER JUNIOR PATHOLOGIST" ONCE THE ACADEMICS HAVE HAD THEIR FUN/ABUSE.


REALITY: THE JOB MARKET IN PATHOLOGY IS THE WORST OF ANY MEDICAL SPECIALITY (SAVE NUCLEAR MEDICINE) AND " A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN ACADEMICS/PRIVATE PRACTICE/CAP/ASCP" HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING IT THIS WAY (OR MAKING IT WORSE) SO THEY CAN GET RICH BY EXPLIOITING THIS SURPLUS WORKFORCE.

DUE TO THEIR MACHINATIONS YOU HAVE LOST ANY NEGOTIATING POWER WHEN LOOKING FOR A JOB (IF YOU ARE AMONG THE LUCKY SELECT FEW WHO ACTUALLY GET THE JOB INTERVIEW THEY ARE INTERESTED IN).

 

[komradrobot2]

Copied from a pathology blog:

"On the contrary, they have increased the
number of residents per year. For example, if your program has 20 ACGMEfunded residency spots, it probably switched from having 4 residents per year (4 residents × 5 years = 20) to having 5 residents per year (5 residents × 4years = 20). Therefore, your program is graduating one extra resident per year, which ultimately increases the total graduating rate by 20%".WAS THERE A 20% INCREASE IN JOBS!!!!!HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE REASON WHY SOME ACADEMICS KEEP ON PERPETUATING THE "MYTH OF A DECENT JOB MARKET" IS VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND:

1. ACADEMIC JOBS HAVE A LOUSY PAY.

2. ACADEMIC JOBS REQUIRE YOU TO SIGN-OUT MULTIPLE CASES (BECAUSE EVERY ACADEMIC DEPARTMENT HAS SOME LAZY/LOOSER RESEARCHER TYPE/ADMIN TYPE PATHOLOGISTS WHO CANNOT SIGN-OUT BUT ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING THE PAYCHECK FROM YOUR WORK) AND ALSO PUBLISH SOME BS PAPERS.

3. HENCE THEY ARE ALWAYS ON THE LOOK OUT FOR SOME SUCKER WHO THEY CAN EXPLOIT BY OFFERING LOW PAY.

4. THESE SUCKERS AFTER A YEAR OR TWO REALIZE HOW THEY ARE BEING SHAMELESSLY EXPLOITED AND START LOOKING FOR ANY DECENT PAYING PRIVATE PRACTICE JOB .

5. SUCKER ULTIMATELY FINDS SOMETHING BETTER AND LEAVES (AFTER TWO YEARS OR SO OF ABUSE).

6 .ACADEMIC DEPARTMENT NEED MORE SUCKERS AT LOW PAY.

7. BEST SOURCE ARE SUCKER RESIDENTS ALREADY TRAINING IN THE PROGRAM.

8. HENCE BETTER TO HAVE MORE RESIDENTS.

9. DUE TO SURPLUS THEY WONT FIND A JOB ELSEWHERE AND WILL SETTLE FOR THE CRUMMY ACADEMIC JOB.

10. CYCLE CONTINUES.

PS. THE "CROOKED OLD POOR DIAGNOSTICIAN PATHOLOGISTS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE" ALSO HAVE THE SAME THINKING AND ARE VERY HAPPY WITH THESE UNSCRUPULOUS ACADEMICS AS THEY GET TO EXPLOIT THE "SUCKER JUNIOR PATHOLOGIST" ONCE THE ACADEMICS HAVE HAD THEIR FUN/ABUSE.


REALITY: THE JOB MARKET IN PATHOLOGY IS THE WORST OF ANY MEDICAL SPECIALITY (SAVE NUCLEAR MEDICINE) AND " A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN ACADEMICS/PRIVATE PRACTICE/CAP/ASCP" HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING IT THIS WAY (OR MAKING IT WORSE) SO THEY CAN GET RICH BY EXPLIOITING THIS SURPLUS WORKFORCE.

DUE TO THEIR MACHINATIONS YOU HAVE LOST ANY NEGOTIATING POWER WHEN LOOKING FOR A JOB (IF YOU ARE AMONG THE LUCKY SELECT FEW WHO ACTUALLY GET THE JOB INTERVIEW THEY ARE INTERESTED IN).

Sorry that your experience with pathology has been so horrible. Can't say the same for the residents at my program. I wonder where you trained.