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Goofarounditis

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Hey all. Been long time viewer of SDN and I thank all of you for the info I've read, especially the past couple months.
Now that ranking is coming up, I've been having a hard time with this. I feel that within the physiatry world, everyone knows the reputations of each residency program/hospital. However, in other specialties and the general public, this is not the case. I guess an example of a great physiatry program without the public name is UMDNJ/NJMS, and a program that isn't as great in physiatry but everyone knows of is Hopkins (which is a great program, but just not mentioned in the elite ones). I know that for choosing residency, a person should go with what they think is the best fit for them, how they interact with residents/attendings, etc. However, does the home institution (on the diploma and CV) matter when it comes into finding jobs that doesn't have PM&R as the nucleus (like an ortho group) or fellowship (like anesth. pain). I'm very sorry for the length, but my head is going crazy over this and in my searching have only found topics similar to this, but not exactly. Thanks
 

MikeShanahan

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I've been mulling over the same thing and I asked an attending this specific question during an interview to get his opinion and he said that very often the person who is in a position to hire you does have an idea of which programs are the big ones in physiatry. And he said if your work is dependent on referrals from other physicians, there will be plenty of other factors more important to attracting work than where you graduated from. Coming from a program with good public recognition might help attract the patient off the street looking for a physiatrist though (plus it's nice for getting respect from in-laws at Thanksgiving - just kidding). Anyway, I am putting a little more weight on reputation within physiatry.
 

mehul_25

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the name of your home institution is very important depending on your career goals. If you are planning on staying in PM&R (SCI, TBI, MSK) big names in PM&R will help your career. If you want to apply for anesthesia pain a big name institution will help.
 
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arik79

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nothing in this world, especially pain management and PMR are that black and white. you aren't dead if you don't go to a name institution and want pain and you aren't in(if you want pmr subspecialties) just b/c you do. as in life there are many variables. just as a nice example i went to albany medical college, decent school nothing special, with college kids who graduated duke and harvard, meanwhile i went to suny albany(#1 party school 1997). don't be fooled by big names, some of the worst pmr interviews i went on 2 years ago were big name institutions, some of the best: kessler, jfk, temple, aren't such big names.
arik mizrachi pgy2 umdnj-kessler.
 

mehul_25

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my comments were obviously generalizations and should probably be clarified. there are always expceptions to generalizations as there are in this situation. my point was that in pm&r, particularly if you have academic aspirations or want the best private practice job, coming from a big name Pm&R program will help. They have large alumni networks and many people in academic positions particularly comapred to mid-level programs. As far as pain is concerned, my residency program is a case study in this scenario. I completed my residency at GTUH/NRH, on its best day an average program, yet all the graduates from last years program are in accredited fellowships this year. Certainly when it coming to going into pain, espcially in anesthesia programs coming from Mayo, U of M, Harvard has more impact then Kessler/JFK/Temple.

I agree with arik79 that you shouldnt be fooled by big names and that should not be your only criteria for selecting a training program, but failing to recognize name recognition as a factor in future success is short-sighted. The fact that he commented on attending medical school with those from Duke and Harvard just adds to my argument.

Anyway, I do believe there are many good small programs in PM&R, some that are hidden gems and others that are good fits for certain personalities. Training at one of those programs does not preclude an individual from tremendous future success, often it just makes the path a bit harder.
 
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my comments were obviously generalizations and should probably be clarified. there are always expceptions to generalizations as there are in this situation. my point was that in pm&r, particularly if you have academic aspirations or want the best private practice job, coming from a big name Pm&R program will help. They have large alumni networks and many people in academic positions particularly comapred to mid-level programs. As far as pain is concerned, my residency program is a case study in this scenario. I completed my residency at GTUH/NRH, on its best day an average program, yet all the graduates from last years program are in accredited fellowships this year. Certainly when it coming to going into pain, espcially in anesthesia programs coming from Mayo, U of M, Harvard has more impact then Kessler/JFK/Temple.

I agree with arik79 that you shouldnt be fooled by big names and that should not be your only criteria for selecting a training program, but failing to recognize name recognition as a factor in future success is short-sighted. The fact that he commented on attending medical school with those from Duke and Harvard just adds to my argument.

Anyway, I do believe there are many good small programs in PM&R, some that are hidden gems and others that are good fits for certain personalities. Training at one of those programs does not preclude an individual from tremendous future success, often it just makes the path a bit harder.


I think that is is "spot on." Generally, if your goal is to work in multi-specialty surgery groups (ortho, neurosurg, spine) they generally only know the institutional reputation of the program, not the departmental reputation specifically.

If you want to move, shake, and dance a jig in academic physiatry then departmental reputation and "blood-lines" matter. The field is still small enough that at most you can find anyone in 3 degrees of separation or less! Try it.
 

Disciple

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However, does the home institution (on the diploma and CV) matter when it comes into finding jobs that doesn't have PM&R as the nucleus (like an ortho group) or fellowship (like anesth. pain). I'm very sorry for the length, but my head is going crazy over this and in my searching have only found topics similar to this, but not exactly. Thanks

As was stated above and intuitively speaking, Anesthesia programs want to see an institution that has a strong gas reputation, same for Ortho, Neurosurg, etc.

That's only part of it, however. Groups that will hire you that are not Physiatry groups will be interested in very specific skill sets. For the most part, they're not looking for "general Physiatrist". So, you definitely want to make sure you have acquired those skills, especially if you're planning on getting a reasonable partnership tract out of the group. The ideal situation would be to attend a PM&R residency that will train you in everything you want to be trained in while still providing the overall strong institutional reputation.

Easier said than done.
 

Goofarounditis

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Thanks for all the info. I guess my personal dilemma is where to put Kessler and Mayo in my ranking. I loved both programs in terms of residents, attendings, being well-rounded, and reputation. I actually did a month at Kessler just cause its close to NY and I have family in NJ. I know that I'll get a great education at both places, but I don't want to have the possibility of short changing myself in the future if it comes to a non-academic job (I actually don't know what I want to do after residency). I mean, in physiatry everyone knows both places, but generally everyone's heard of Mayo. I guess that is one negative of Kessler, with the location being the negative of Rochester.
 

Disciple

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If by chance, you know specifically some of the things you really want to learn, that might help.

From what I hear (I didn't go to Mayo so I can't verify), Mayo has great EMG training (mandatory 6 months) and introductory exposure to musculoskeletal ultrasound.

I would ask drusso the specifics about Mayo.
 

Goofarounditis

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If by chance, you know specifically some of the things you really want to learn, that might help.

From what I hear (I didn't go to Mayo so I can't verify), Mayo has great EMG training (mandatory 6 months) and introductory exposure to musculoskeletal ultrasound.

I would ask drusso the specifics about Mayo.
See, thats the thing. Right now I'm interested in everything, or at least the electives I've done, which include inpatient SCI, outpatient MSK, and even a little peds. I also enjoy doing procedures, but that was from my medicine/surgery rotations. Thats why I want a solid overall education and want every opportunity for the future.
 

Disciple

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I think I wrote this in another post. If you don't exactly know what you want to do yet, the best program for you may not be the one that has the best, most reputable training in A, B, C or any combination thereof, but the one that has the least deficiencies (most well rounded), most open minded/forward thinking/practical chairman/PD and best overall institutional reputation.
 

caedmon

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So most people know Mayo as a great place for training in oupatient/MSK/sports/EMG etc, and I would agree. There are several dedicated outpatient months that you may not get at other institutions, ie hand, arthritis, and sports to name a few. On top of that, in your continunity clinics, and other outpatient general and musculoskeletal rotations, a large proportion of referrals are MSK related, so you see it again and again. There are opportunities for procedures as well but you're not doing tons. EMG training is second to none. It is done in a six month block with two months of lectures/hands on training and 4 months of you doing EMG's- the lab is AMAZING.

On the other hand, brain and SCI training are great as well. Although the quantity of patients may not be as high (inpatient wise) as other programs, the quality of training is excellent. Mayo is a model system in TBI and has a renowned outpatient TBI program. And, although the Mayo rotation schedule seems fairly rigid, if one is interested in obtaining more training in TBI or SCI this can definitely be obtained. As far as electives go, it is known that Mayo has one month or so of electives, but we have months built in for outpatient requirements that could likely be altered depending on one's interest. For example, we can rotate to both Jacksonville and Scottsdale clinics for outpatient PM&R or pain. These are popular rotations, but are not necissarily required. We also have a month of pain built in that is not required either. So if somebody wants to spend time in the TBI clinic instead of pain or wants to get more exposure to SCI in clinic it is definitely obtainable.

Mayo was also just approved for a peds fellowship
 
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