Naturopath quacks now dabbling in plastic surgery

[coffeebythelake]

Plastic surgery societies call on Arizona lawmakers to stop naturopaths from performing surgeries

After the 12News I-Team exposed the practice of some naturopaths performing surgeries, the American Society of Plastic Surgeons sent a letter to lawmakers.

www.12news.com

The Arizona Naturopathic Medical Association responded to the plastic surgery community's letter with a letter of their own. In their letter, they argue, “Naturopathic physicians are exactly that – physicians.”

The Naturopathic Physicians Medical Board has had the opportunity to take action against at least two naturopaths who have performed liposuction surgeries but declined to discipline them, effectively saying the practice is allowed.

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[HighPriest]

This shouldn’t be surprising. It should be aggravating and appalling. Write your state medical board now because this is going to get worse, and when the complications start rolling in, the blame will get distributed equally, they won’t just target the Naturopaths. These are snake oil salesmen who believe in their product.

 

[Wordead]

I mean there's OBGYNs and Oral surgeons and whatever doing body plastics fillers and whatever else. Not sure there's a difference. None should be allowed to do some weekend course and start offering services.

 

[HighPriest]

I mean there's OBGYNs and Oral surgeons and whatever doing body plastics fillers and whatever else. Not sure there's a difference. None should be allowed to do some weekend course and start offering services.

The difference is that at least they’ve had some actual clinical medical experience. Even the oral surgeons do a medicine clinical rotation.

I don’t agree with oral surgeons doing boob jobs. I think neither should be doing something they didn’t receive training to do, but there’s something to be said for having at least dabbled in real medicine. You can get a naturopathic degree entirely online last I checked.

If they put their money where their mouth is, shouldn’t they be working on people’s chakras to eliminate body fat? Why do something so barbaric and unnatural like liposuction? I think maybe they’re tipping your hand a little….

 

[coffeebythelake]

I mean there's OBGYNs and Oral surgeons and whatever doing body plastics fillers and whatever else. Not sure there's a difference. None should be allowed to do some weekend course and start offering services.

And you think it is OK for obgyns and oral surgeons to do this? That's shocking. As for the naturopathic quacks plying their surgical skills, I wonder what they do for the anesthesia? Herbs, spices and meditation?

 

[Wordead]

And you think it is OK for obgyns and oral surgeons to do this? That's shocking. As for the naturopathic quacks plying their surgical skills, I wonder what they do for the anesthesia? Herbs, spices and meditation?

No I don't. Not sure why that would be the takeaway. I think you should have some real fellowship training to do real plastic surgery. I can kind of see it for botox, fillers and that medispa BS but not for anything more than that.

 

[Wordead]

The difference is that at least they’ve had some actual clinical medical experience. Even the oral surgeons do a medicine clinical rotation.

I don’t agree with oral surgeons doing boob jobs. I think neither should be doing something they didn’t receive training to do, but there’s something to be said for having at least dabbled in real medicine. You can get a naturopathic degree entirely online last I checked.

If they put their money where their mouth is, shouldn’t they be working on people’s chakras to eliminate body fat? Why do something so barbaric and unnatural like liposuction? I think maybe they’re tipping your hand a little….

Come on now I think we've both worked with the oral surgeons enough to know that their "clinical medical experience" is not exactly robust. Yes, better than the naturopaths but it's not by much. And I don't feel the clinical experience of the OBGYNs really lends itself to boob jobs tummy tucks facelifts etc.

 

[HighPriest]

Come on now I think we've both worked with the oral surgeons enough to know that their "clinical medical experience" is not exactly robust. Yes, better than the naturopaths but it's not by much. And I don't feel the clinical experience of the OBGYNs really lends itself to boob jobs tummy tucks facelifts etc.

It doesn’t. But of those three choices two have actual training in actual medical fields.

Put another way: if I said you could have one of three people do your appendectomy: a dermatologist, a radiologist, or a third grade art teacher, which one would you put last? At least the other two were at some point taught why the procedure is done and what parts plug in to what parts. Even if they don’t recall, they’ve heard it. I think the mistake here is assuming that someone who went to dental school is almost as far from medical knowledge as a naturopath. I’d say they’re far closer than one.

I mean, $#it at least at some point in their training someone taught an oral surgeon or OBGYN how to operate. At the very least, someone said “here’s how you stop bleeding.”
What do you think the chances are they did that in Naturopathic school? Beyond explaining that healing touch will slow bleeding at the exact rate of coagulation?

Naturopaths are the medical embodiment of the anti-intellectualism you see everywhere else with worryingly increasing frequency - anything you want to believe in is fact and you don’t have to prove it to anyone. At least most of the dentists I know know what a statistical analysis is. Even if they don’t use them. And even if they shouldn’t be doing boob jobs. I agree on that. I just think a naturopath is way worse.

 

[Wordead]

It doesn’t. But of those three choices two have actual training in actual medical fields.

Put another way: if I said you could have one of three people do your appendectomy: a dermatologist, a radiologist, or a third grade art teacher, which one would you put last? At least the other two were at some point taught why the procedure is done and what parts plug in to what parts. Even if they don’t recall, they’ve heard it. I think the mistake here is assuming that someone who went to dental school is almost as far from medical knowledge as a naturopath. I’d say they’re far closer than one.

I mean, $#it at least at some point in their training someone taught an oral surgeon or OBGYN how to operate. At the very least, someone said “here’s how you stop bleeding.”
What do you think the chances are they did that in Naturopathic school? Beyond explaining that healing touch will slow bleeding at the exact rate of coagulation?

Naturopaths are the medical embodiment of the anti-intellectualism you see everywhere else with worryingly increasing frequency - anything you want to believe in is fact and you don’t have to prove it to anyone. At least most of the dentists I know know what a statistical analysis is. Even if they don’t use them. And even if they shouldn’t be doing boob jobs. I agree on that. I just think a naturopath is way worse.

I mean I see your point but I really hate the race to the bottom.

Out of curiosity, would you go derm or radiology for your appendectomy? I mean the dermatologist was theoretically top of their class and maybe has some involvement with Mohs so might have some hand skills but probably has forgotten every organ system outside of skin. The radiologist might not be able to see with the OR lights since they have evolutionarily adapted to the dark and likely has no surgical skills, but reading a million CT abdomens means they probably know where to go.

 

[HighPriest]

I mean I see your point but I really hate the race to the bottom.

Out of curiosity, would you go derm or radiology for your appendectomy? I mean the dermatologist was theoretically top of their class and maybe has some involvement with Mohs so might have some hand skills but probably has forgotten every organ system outside of skin. The radiologist might not be able to see with the OR lights since they have evolutionarily adapted to the dark and likely has no surgical skills, but reading a million CT abdomens means they probably know where to go.

It’s a tough call. Maybe the radiologist gets PTSD from seeing real organs and passes out during the procedure. Like a kid who thinks war is like call of duty and then he gets deployed. The dermatologist at best knows how to hold a scalpel, but has no idea how to stop anything beyond cutaneous bleeding. Maybe I’d let the art teacher give it a whack just for fun.

I would definitely let the OMFS or GyN try before anyone mentioned above if those were my only choices.

 

[PandaBaer]

Point of clarification, when mentioning Oral Surgeon, is that referring to a DDS/DMD with additional training (fellowship?) or OMFS? Or are they the same?
I thought the 2 were very different and, in my limited experience, OMFS do some heavy recon of the face, i.e. split face call with plastics/ENT at some shops?

 

[HighPriest]

Point of clarification, when mentioning Oral Surgeon, is that referring to a DDS/DMD with additional training (fellowship?) or OMFS? Or are they the same?
I thought the 2 were very different and, in my limited experience, OMFS do some heavy recon of the face, i.e. split face call with plastics/ENT at some shops?

OMFS/Oral Surgeon (same thing) can be DDS or MD/DDS. They can do (mostly bony) facial trauma out of training, though many stop that immediately. But that’s not the same as doing a breast augmentation and should not be construed as being capable of doing so. I can take care of a crushed face. I would never tell a patient that good to install some silicon in their chest.

I would even go so far as to say it’s been long enough since I routinely fixed jaw fractures that I’m probably not all that great at it, despite having been taught how and having practiced doing it for a number of years. Had I never been trained at all? Probably I’d be far worse at it.

How DOES one do a naturopathic lipsuction anyway? With a reed? Mouth pipetting?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

OMFS/Oral Surgeon (same thing) can be DDS or MD/DDS. They can do (mostly bony) facial trauma out of training, though many stop that immediately. But that’s not the same as doing a breast augmentation and should not be construed as being capable of doing so. I can take care of a crushed face. I would never tell a patient that good to install some silicon in their chest.

I would even go so far as to say it’s been long enough since I routinely fixed jaw fractures that I’m probably not all that great at it, despite having been taught how and having practiced doing it for a number of years. Had I never been trained at all? Probably I’d be far worse at it.

How DOES one do a naturopathic lipsuction anyway? With a reed? Mouth pipetting?

It probably involves coconut oil at some point.

 

[Apollyon]

Point of clarification, when mentioning Oral Surgeon, is that referring to a DDS/DMD with additional training (fellowship?) or OMFS? Or are they the same?
I thought the 2 were very different and, in my limited experience, OMFS do some heavy recon of the face, i.e. split face call with plastics/ENT at some shops?

In my first job out of residency (EM), I recall a guy shot in the face. This was on a Sunday. Facial call was covered by a DMD. I called him, and he said he didn't do "that" (retained bullet in the face after being shot in the ear). I was somewhat quizzical about that, but, as it was ~15 years ago, I don't recall my solution to the issue.

 

[HighPriest]

In my first job out of residency (EM), I recall a guy shot in the face. This was on a Sunday. Facial call was covered by a DMD. I called him, and he said he didn't do "that" (retained bullet in the face after being shot in the ear). I was somewhat quizzical about that, but, as it was ~15 years ago, I don't recall my solution to the

Was it in the sinus? I ask because a lot of oral surgeons have this weird thing where they really don’t like going in to a sinus. It’s a strange little black box for them. They’ll break the sinus walls, advance the floor of the sinus, put screws into it, but if they have to go inside, they get queasy. I don’t know why. I assume it is because where so paranoid about getting into the mucosa while doing sinus lifts that it just colors their approach in everything, but I can’t say for sure.
Also, he may have tuned out once you said the bullet hit the temporal bone.

 

[Apollyon]

Was it in the sinus? I ask because a lot of oral surgeons have this weird thing where they really don’t like going in to a sinus. It’s a strange little black box for them. They’ll break the sinus walls, advance the floor of the sinus, put screws into it, but if they have to go inside, they get queasy. I don’t know why. I assume it is because where so paranoid about getting into the mucosa while doing sinus lifts that it just colors their approach in everything, but I can’t say for sure.
Also, he may have tuned out once you said the bullet hit the temporal bone.

Dude didn't say why, just that it wasn't him (despite being on OMFS call). Funny is, I still remember the on call guy's name - Derek. The bullet was in the sinus, but, superficial - it may have gone in the ear, and ended up subcutaneous. That makes sense, though.

I guess the moral of the story is: don't do drug deals on Saturday night, unless you want to be shot in the head and in the ED on Sunday morning.

 

[HighPriest]

Dude didn't say why, just that it wasn't him (despite being on OMFS call). Funny is, I still remember the on call guy's name - Derek. The bullet was in the sinus, but, superficial - it may have gone in the ear, and ended up subcutaneous. That makes sense, though.

I guess the moral of the story is: don't do drug deals on Saturday night, unless you want to be shot in the head and in the ED on Sunday morning.

Yeah, Sat is a wild night. Get it all out of the way M-F and take Sat off.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Dude didn't say why, just that it wasn't him (despite being on OMFS call). Funny is, I still remember the on call guy's name - Derek. The bullet was in the sinus, but, superficial - it may have gone in the ear, and ended up subcutaneous. That makes sense, though.

I guess the moral of the story is: don't do drug deals on Saturday night, unless you want to be shot in the head and in the ED on Sunday morning.

I think the actual moral is to stick them in the MRI to remove metal in the face.

 

[Apollyon]

I think the actual moral is to stick them in the MRI to remove metal in the face.

But lead isn't ferromagnetic! If it was steel jacketed, it wouldn't have just bounced around his face!

 

[aaaaa]

Come on now I think we've both worked with the oral surgeons enough to know that their "clinical medical experience" is not exactly robust. Yes, better than the naturopaths but it's not by much. And I don't feel the clinical experience of the OBGYNs really lends itself to boob jobs tummy tucks facelifts etc.

Dang, went from naturopaths shouldn’t do lipo to bash oral surgeons somehow. I know of some OMS doing full body cosmetic surgery and don’t agree with it but state MEDICAL societies allow them and anyone with an MD (including derm, obgyn, ent) to do this under their medical licenses. They all did full body cosmetic surgery fellowships after residency so I guess they’re trained to do those procedures. I agree it seems fishy but no different than ent or derm doing the same thing.

Oms being afraid of the sinus is silly. Every single oms has done a lefort 1 osteotomy and sliced right through the sinus and down fractured the maxilla. They aren’t afraid of the sinus, they might just being referring the patient to ent because they don’t want to deal with it or think you might be able to do a better job endoscopically. But you’re right, we don’t know anything about medicine, just a bunch of tooth mechanics

 

[HighPriest]

Dang, went from naturopaths shouldn’t do lipo to bash oral surgeons somehow. I know of some OMS doing full body cosmetic surgery and don’t agree with it but state MEDICAL societies allow them and anyone with an MD (including derm, obgyn, ent) to do this under their medical licenses. They all did full body cosmetic surgery fellowships after residency so I guess they’re trained to do those procedures. I agree it seems fishy but no different than ent or derm doing the same thing.

Oms being afraid of the sinus is silly. Every single oms has done a lefort 1 osteotomy and sliced right through the sinus and down fractured the maxilla. They aren’t afraid of the sinus, they might just being referring the patient to ent because they don’t want to deal with it or think you might be able to do a better job endoscopically. But you’re right, we don’t know anything about medicine, just a bunch of tooth mechanics

No one (at least not me) bashing OMFS. Unless they’re doing boob jobs, and then yeah they shouldn’t be. And if an ENT guy who didn’t do a PRS fellowship is doing boob jobs, then they should also be ashamed. I’ve never come across that, but anything is definitely possible. Medical societies allow you to do anything, but they do rely on your rational mind and sense of humility to stick to what you’re trained to do. It’s allowed because so far no one has found it necessary to spell out what you can or can’t do (although hospital credentialing committees do that, you can just circumvent it by owning a surgery center). So far it’s only a relatively small cadre of ballsy charlatans who take advantage of this, but they’re out there. Some of them are oral surgeons. Some of them are probably ENT guys, but both are a problem. You could start offering all the services a naturopath offers, too, but most people done because they just have too much pride. the medical board allows it, but common sense prevents it. Save for some “aesthetic centers,” which are only vaguely medical practices at best. Surely we all understand that there’s a difference between what you -can- do and what you -should- do.

I know a ton of Oral Surgeons who won’t go in to a sinus, and some others yet who really freak out when they do. They call me about it. I agree with you, they shouldn’t. It happens all of the time. If you do maxillary advancements, it happens every time. But yet I have definitely come across guys who won’t get near anything in the sinus on many occasions. no doubt that isn’t all oral surgeons. A lot of them just haven’t done much facial trauma or advancement surgery in a long time. Some still do sinus lifts, but I can’t tell you how often I get a referral from an oral surgeon because he “breached the mucosa” doing a lift and he wants me to check it out. It’s cool. I do it. But, you know, who cares? It’s going to heal fine.

while I find it weird, I’ve never been critical of that. I don’t mind going in the sinus, so that’s all good. If the guy in question didn’t -want- do to the case he should just say so. If he -doesn’t- do those cases, there must be a reason. Honestly getting a bullet out of a sinus endoscopically might be easier way harder depending upon the location. Who knows. All I said was if it was in the sinus he may not have felt comfortable going after it. Maybe that’s because he thought endoscopic was a better option. He apparently didn’t share that when he refused outright to see the patient.

 

[greatnt249]

Dang, went from naturopaths shouldn’t do lipo to bash oral surgeons somehow. I know of some OMS doing full body cosmetic surgery and don’t agree with it but state MEDICAL societies allow them and anyone with an MD (including derm, obgyn, ent) to do this under their medical licenses. They all did full body cosmetic surgery fellowships after residency so I guess they’re trained to do those procedures. I agree it seems fishy but no different than ent or derm doing the same thing.

Oms being afraid of the sinus is silly. Every single oms has done a lefort 1 osteotomy and sliced right through the sinus and down fractured the maxilla. They aren’t afraid of the sinus, they might just being referring the patient to ent because they don’t want to deal with it or think you might be able to do a better job endoscopically. But you’re right, we don’t know anything about medicine, just a bunch of tooth mechanics

Being legally allowed to do something with your medical license is a far cry from it being the responsible or right thing to do.

 

[aaaaa]

Being legally allowed to do something with your medical license is a far cry from it being the responsible or right thing to do.

I completely agree. We are on the same page, my point is why specifically the bashing of oral surgeons when there are ent, derm, obgyn doing the same thing?

 

[maxxor]

Saw this at the top of SDN today

You searched for cosmetic surgery - SDN

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[FindersFee5]

No one (at least not me) bashing OMFS. Unless they’re doing boob jobs, and then yeah they shouldn’t be. And if an ENT guy who didn’t do a PRS fellowship is doing boob jobs, then they should also be ashamed. I’ve never come across that, but anything is definitely possible. Medical societies allow you to do anything, but they do rely on your rational mind and sense of humility to stick to what you’re trained to do. It’s allowed because so far no one has found it necessary to spell out what you can or can’t do (although hospital credentialing committees do that, you can just circumvent it by owning a surgery center). So far it’s only a relatively small cadre of ballsy charlatans who take advantage of this, but they’re out there. Some of them are oral surgeons. Some of them are probably ENT guys, but both are a problem. You could start offering all the services a naturopath offers, too, but most people done because they just have too much pride. the medical board allows it, but common sense prevents it. Save for some “aesthetic centers,” which are only vaguely medical practices at best. Surely we all understand that there’s a difference between what you -can- do and what you -should- do.

I know a ton of Oral Surgeons who won’t go in to a sinus, and some others yet who really freak out when they do. They call me about it. I agree with you, they shouldn’t. It happens all of the time. If you do maxillary advancements, it happens every time. But yet I have definitely come across guys who won’t get near anything in the sinus on many occasions. no doubt that isn’t all oral surgeons. A lot of them just haven’t done much facial trauma or advancement surgery in a long time. Some still do sinus lifts, but I can’t tell you how often I get a referral from an oral surgeon because he “breached the mucosa” doing a lift and he wants me to check it out. It’s cool. I do it. But, you know, who cares? It’s going to heal fine.

while I find it weird, I’ve never been critical of that. I don’t mind going in the sinus, so that’s all good. If the guy in question didn’t -want- do to the case he should just say so. If he -doesn’t- do those cases, there must be a reason. Honestly getting a bullet out of a sinus endoscopically might be easier way harder depending upon the location. Who knows. All I said was if it was in the sinus he may not have felt comfortable going after it. Maybe that’s because he thought endoscopic was a better option. He apparently didn’t share that when he refused outright to see the patient.

To be honest, I'm a plastic surgery residents and at the private hospitals we rotate at, the attendings (who do cover facial trauma call, and some of these hospitals are level 1 trauma centers, although not super busy) would definitely not be comfortable endoscopically going into a sinus.

We just don't do that much endoscopic ****.

 

[MediCane2006]

Saw this at the top of SDN today

You searched for cosmetic surgery - SDN

www.studentdoctor.net

Oh boy.

She’s learning just enough to be dangerous.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I shouldn't be doing appendectomies, but as a surgeon and a doctor if the hospital I work at is willing to accredit me then I could. There is nothing natural about surgery. It is fundamentally contrary to naturopathy's scope. In fact, one could argue that surgery is the apex of so-called non-holistic medicine. I remember visiting the naturopathy school in Tempe. It literally was a renovated elementary school. You could still see the sand box and holes where the jungle gym was previously. This was over a decade ago, a quick google search suggests that they've upgraded since then.

 

[HighPriest]

Thanks naturobot.