Naturopathic doctor?

[Adapt]

I just read somewhere that there is such a thing as a Naturopathic doctor (ND). Supposedly they have a holistic approach as well and have a similar education to MDs. Most enter into primary care. Also, I read in the allopathic forum that they have just been given full rights to practice medicine in CA and AZ just as MDs and DOs.

Has anyone ever heard of this?

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[burlypie]

yeah, I know a couple of people who went that way. Try googling Bastyr Univeristy in Seattle, I know that's one of the epreeminent naturopathic institutions and thy should have some good info.

Personally though...I find it interesting, but I'd be more willing to practive integrative medicine as an MD, making the appropriate complimentary care referrals.

 

[Street Philosopher]

it's called an oxymoron.

 

[drusso]

Originally posted by Slickness
I just read somewhere that there is such a thing as a Naturopathic doctor (ND). Supposedly they have a holistic approach as well and have a similar education to MDs. Most enter into primary care. Also, I read in the allopathic forum that they have just been given full rights to practice medicine in CA and AZ just as MDs and DOs.

Has anyone ever heard of this?

ND's cannot practice medicine and surgery the way that DO's and MD's do. They also cannot specialize. You cannot be a naturopathic neurosurgeon.

 

[jbing]

Originally posted by drusso
You cannot be a naturopathic neurosurgeon.

 

[Shinken]

Slickness, do an internet search on naturopathic medicine.

I have no idea why McGyver is scared of naturopathic doctors taking over and displacing MD's and DO's. I don't think he really understands the roles of different health care providers, in particular the place that NP's and PA's have in the total system of health care.

His fear of naturopathic doctors makes as much sense as saying that acupuncturists have independent practice rights without MD or DO supervision, so MD's and DO's are in trouble and will eventually be replaced.

In a nutshell, naturopathic physicians are only able to get licenses in a few states (about 4 or 5 if my memory serves), their training involves acupuncture, herbalism, massage therapy, homeopathy and other "natural" remedies. They don't perform surgery (only minor stuff like suturing lacerations) or prescribe drugs (unless they're "natural" herbal-type drugs). They're not a threat. They're just one more option that people have when choosing a health care provider.

 

[DrWuStar]

slickness,

naturopathic medicine is really cool! i was really interested in going that route, and went as far as to apply. two factors changed my mind:

1. most MDs have no respect for NDs (like the DO stigma only much worse). they do not consider them scientists, although that is really just bull****. i want to be a part of the medical research community as well as a practicing doc. the reaction i got from several MDs i know and respect when i told them i was applying to ND school made me realize that my entire career would be an uphill battle if i tried to do any "mainstream" research work as an ND.

2. Naturopathic med school is 4 years, they are all expensive, and they offer much less in terms of financial aid. an ND degree also offers much less in terms of salary after graduation. i can't spend more moeny to make less. if i had family money or something like that, i might have done it. but i am not wealthy and have to make really responsible decisions about my money.

there are 3 accredited naturopathic med schools:

Bastyr (Seattle)
National College of Naturopathic Medicine (Portland)
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine (Tempe, AZ)

the University of Bridgeport, in CT, is pending accredition. i believe there is also an ND school in toronto.

if you want to know any more, about the specific schools or whatever, feel free to PM me.

 

[Adapt]

Interesting. So why in that thread in the allopathic forum was MacGyver saying that NDs have gained full practice rights just like MDs and DOs in CA and AZ. I had never heard of an ND before now.

 

[Shinken]

I had never heard of an ND before now

Really? The way I heard about ND's is because after I took the MCAT I was bombarded with unsolicited brochures from podiatry and naturopathy schools. Naturopathy sounds interesting, but I think they're very limited in what conditions they can treat simply by virtue of not using non-natural drugs or surgery. Naturopathic physicians seem to be a combination of almost all alternative medicine practices in one convenient package.

According to Alternative Medicine, The Definitive Guide (1994 version), naturopathic physicians can only practice their brand of medicine in seven US states (Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Hawaii, Montana, Oregon and Washington) and in five Canadian provinces. They receive training in clinical nutrition, herbal medicine, homeopathy, acupuncture, hydrotherapy, physical medicine, and minor surgery (sutures, skin biopsies, etc.). Sounds interesting but limited.

Things I really don't like about ND's is that sometimes they have dangerous practices such as a completely natural approach to child birth (usually in people's homes) which I find somewhat irresponsible if something goes wrong, and ND's don't believe in vaccination (which is outrageous).

 

[logos]

They're not a threat.

Maybe not to real doctors..but certainly to patients...i'm sure their "natural" "treatments" occasionally "cure" people (even if the only thing that is cured is in the patients head). But, the danger lies in the fact that a patient with a genuine medical problem may be recieving "treatment" from a naturopath thus delaying real treatment by a physician. In this sense naturopaths are very dangerous....just as are chiropractors...an event like this occured to a friend of my fathers awhile back...ended up dieing because they didnt find the tumor until very late.


I think the major issue with naturopathy is that its basis is not objective. It's based on the idea that "natural" things are better than "artificial" things. I can come up with no logical reason that this should be the case...although it is something that people are often willing to assume. A better view would be to recognize that there are likely chemical compounds that are produced by organisms in the environment that can be used as drugs and seek to isolate (and probably improve) these substances.

I dunno...this is just something that drives me nuts...if two things are precisely the same....how is one more natural than another and why does that make it better? Where does one draw the line between natural and artificial...it just dosent matter...if there is some active compound in some natural product...why not learn to either extract it...leaving the unnecessary portion....or better yet...to synthesize it..

 

[gjrbryant]

The problem with ND's is that 0% of what they bill is paid by insurance companies. (There are no CPT codes for N.P's)
Services are C.O.D.! Unless you live in an area where the public has extra cash laying around you are not going to be collecting anything. This may be ok if you are going to open your own practice but no one is going to hire you if your collections won't give them a return on investment. As far as opening your own practice, plan on living on credit for a while, M.D's don't refer to N.D's. Your talking about cold hard pavement pounding for patients. To be honest a P.A. is 10X a better field. A P.A. can be certified in everything a N.D. can do and they can bill office visits to insurance. It's cheaper for a practice to hire a P.A. than another M.D. and the profit margin is higher for the P.A.. So, for those of you who are looking for an easier route think P.A.

 

[woolie]

I agree with above posters that if you want to go another route, go PA. More money, more respect and incredible flexibility and ability to relocate, etc.

That said, an old high school friend went to the school in Seattle and she really loved it. Last I heard, she was finishing up her residency and treating patients just like anyone else. But, she was kind of a real hippie chick to begin with and she LOVED the herbal stuff. Also, maybe in Seattle there are more people with lots of loo$e ca$h lying around. I dunno ...

 

[CH3CH2OH]

As much as NDs might be a threat to patients, it seems to me that they are becoming increasingly popular... i read some health-related discussion boards (healthboards etc.). you wouldn't believe how many people are looking for the "natural" approach with herbs and whatnot. the thing that i fight frightenning though is that many of them turn to "alternative" methods after seeing thier MDs who were often unable, or simply unwilling to solve their problem (telling them that it's either all in their heads - which may be true, but still requires treatment/counseling, or claiming that there's nothing they can do and the patient should just learn to live w/ it). granted, we are not talking about conditions that are life-threatenning (at least not in the short term), but they still require treatment.
it's amazing how many people have had very negative experience with MDs, and that's usually why the "natural approach"...
so, if NDs are really a threat to the patients (which i'm sure sometimes they are) this could partially be solved by improving the Dr. - patient relationships...

anyway, just wanted to throw this out where and see what do you guys think...

 

[Shinken]

this could partially be solved by improving the Dr. - patient relationships...

Exactly. A big reason people seek out "alternative" practitioners is because they've had no success getting an MD (or DO) to listen to them and actually "treat" them.

 

[logos]

this could partially be solved by improving the Dr. - patient relationships...

I agree...i'm sure that there are instances that patients go to herbalists when they get fed up with their physician...and all any quack really has to do is seem concerned about their patient to make the patient believe he is getting good care. The degredation of the Dr. - patient relationship can be blamed for a lot the recent problems in medicine

 

[idq1i]

-"Hey Doc, i have this infection on my hand"
-"Hmm, yes indeed. The evil spirits have invaded you, disrupting your balance with nature and your geomagnetospiritual energy field. Since amoxicillin is the evil creation of man, drink some of this herb potion while I rub the wound with organically grown magic healing grass.

If you are still around tomorrow, I will stick you with many pins. The earth's magnetic force will act through them, and that will chase the germs away"

--My view of the quackery that is naturopathy, homeopathy, complementary/alternative medicine. Got snakeoil?

 

[Super Rob]

You cannot be a naturopathic neurosurgeon. - drusso

My impression is that most naturopaths would not be interested in performing surgical procedures.

(Naturopaths) are not a threat. They're just one more option that people have when choosing a health care provider. - Shinken

If more of their schools become accredited and health management organizations decide to pay them, they will steal business away from primary care doctors. Just look at the current trends in consumer spending toward "complementary and alternative" health care providers. So, in a sense, they are a threat.

Of course, clinical psychologists and other professionals fighting for and being granted rights to prescribe medicine presents a much greater threat to the integrity of our health care system. While naturopaths could steal some of the business, we can rest assured that they will not be practicing pill/scalpel medicine on patients without adequate training.

Naturopathy sounds interesting, but I think they're very limited in what conditions they can treat simply by virtue of not using non-natural drugs or surgery. - Shinken

Some educated obese people, depressed people, anxious people, diabetic people, people with heart disease, people with chronic conditions, and a whole host of others who are sick of drugs and affraid of surgery will investigate what naturopathy has to offer.

This will not make cardiologists, emergency room physicians, and surgeons any less valuable, but I fear what the ramifications will be for primary care doctors.

ND's don't believe in vaccination (which is outrageous). - Shinken

I would become very unpopular with this board and with the profession if I were to suggest there were anything wrong with vaccination. Since I am far from being a physician and my science background is limited, my opinion on vaccination doesn't carry much weight. However, I am rather concerned about the safety, effectiveness, and ethicality of vaccinations. I will need to get to the bottom of this in medical school (fingers crossed) but the bottom line is I have respect for both sides of the argument, for and against vaccination.

But, the danger lies in the fact that a patient with a genuine medical problem may be recieving "treatment" from a naturopath thus delaying real treatment by a physician. - logos

If "genuine" entials an arm hanging off by a thread or a heart attack, then I would suggest that our patient visit the nearest hospital for a strong dose of allopathic medicine.

But syndrome X, mood disorders, insomnia, and chronic digestive disorders (including heartburn) certainly qualify as genuine, at least while you are experiencing them. If the naturopath can suggest dietary changes that cure the patient of her heartburn, then perhaps it is a good thing that "real treatment" (the latest pill therapy & "lose some weight") was delayed. Believe me, I really wish primary care doctors could take things like diet into consideration and suggest effective alternatives to the pharmaceutical phlavor of the week (and make enough money to survive), and maybe in the future they will. But for now, we have to admit that our medicine has its short-comings, and a lot of that can be blamed on how health care is "managed" and payed for. The challenge of our generation will be to assess and find a way to get paid to deliver what is best for the patient. We cannot hate an "alternative" practitioner for providing a service that is helpful for a patient. We may even learn from him.

I think the major issue with naturopathy is that its basis is not objective. It's based on the idea that "natural" things are better than "artificial" things. - logos

I agree with you that it is dangerous for scientists to base a modality on assumption and that we should strive toward objectivity in evaluating all treatments.

There is strong evidence to suggest that it is for the most part wiser to put things that are natural into your body than it is to put things that are synthetic. There are some great synthetic chemicals that save and improve the quality of lives minute by minute. That being said, there are droves of healthy individuals jeopardizing their healths with poisons: taking too many over the counter medications without checking with their physician or choosing a diet high in refined grain products (not to be confused with the whole-GRAIN products that nobody purchases or likes).

I have taken medicine before and I will take it again. I dream of using it to help people. It's just good to know that there are some viable alternatives to medicine for some medical concerns.

A P.A. can be certified in everything a N.D. can do and they can bill office visits to insurance. - gjrbryant

Very interesting for anyone contemplating an "alternative" profession. I will have to relay this information to a good friend, but I wonder how a PA's training compares to that of an ND? Most PAs accept and resemble mainstream medical doctors whereas NDs seem to distance themselves a little from MDs. Still interesting from a money perspective.

CH3CH2OH, bravo! I think we share a similar perspective. It is interesting though, that you equate NDs with herbalism. Though many use herbs and express a keen interest in herbs from the get-go, there are NDs who equate "herbing" a patient with "drugging" a patient and tend to focus more on the nutrition aspects of natural medicine.

All any quack really has to do is seem concerned about their patient to make the patient believe he is getting good care. - logos

This is a huge concern! I'm not calling naturopaths quacks, but I am affraid that if the patient-doctor relationship cannot be improved given its circum$tances, then the true quacks will come out of the woodwork to grab at disillusioned patients. They'll charge less, HMOs will pay them, and American health care will become a three ringed circus!

My view of the quackery that is naturopathy, homeopathy, complementary/alternative medicine. Got snakeoil? - idq1i

When is the last time a homeopath has killed someone?

This is a great discussion. I am interested in what some NDs do and wonder how applicable their discipline is to the future of mainstream medicine.

wow, sorry about the length- Rob

 

[usmaple]

Originally posted by Slickness
Interesting. So why in that thread in the allopathic forum was MacGyver saying that NDs have gained full practice rights just like MDs and DOs in CA and AZ. I had never heard of an ND before now.

I have no idea what thread you're talking about, but are you sure he didn't say NP's (nurse practitioners)? NP's and PA's are getting more and more practice rights, but ND's are still proudly mired in quackery.

 

[DrWuStar]

hmmm...

i think it's important to keep in mind that there are many people who call themselves naturopaths or naturual healers who are "quacks" and don't have enough training to act as primary health care givers. so i understand where this idea that naturopathy is hocus-pocus bull****.

on the other hand, the ND degree is legit. requires 4 years of training including the same basic science curriculum covered by allopathic and osteopathic med schools. the accredited schools are also leaders in research into how these naturopathic therapies work, thereby proving to mainstream medical community the value and effectiveness of these therapies.

when you say there is no evidence that these are effective therapies and that they are based on the assumption that it is better to put natural things in the body than artificial things, you are really showing that you do not know much about the modality and are just buying into the biases and stereotypes of the mainstream medical community. i guess if you mean biochemical evidence of how the treatments are actually working, you have a point, but if you mean evidence of effectiveness, in many cases, these treatments are backed by hundreds of years of continued use by healers. there is a reason they have been used for so long - they work! the underlying assumption is not necessarily that natural is better, but that there are effective methods of healing that have been around for a really long time, and they are worth taking advantage of. if your goal is to heal people, why would you rule out an entire tool box? these treatments are not quackery, and there is a growing body of evidence and knowledge on how they work to back up the hundreds of years of evidence that they do work.

the priniciple of naturopathy i find the most appealing is "treat the disease, not the symptoms." this is a prinicple really lacking in allopathic medicine, where heartburn is treated with antacids, chronic rashes are supressed with steroids, and chronic yeast infections are treated with ongoing use of fungicides, rather than anyone trying to determine the root of the imbalance that is causing those symptoms.

just my $.02, but i think naturopathic medicine is really valuable to the medical field in general. naturopathic treatments are not the best choice for every ailment, but in some cases, they definitely are! the allopathic community would be smart to take a few lessons from the evidence-based naturopathic community (not the "natural healers", but the actual NDs).

i know i will get flamed for this, so go ahead and fire away...

 

[DrWuStar]

also, for anyone who is interested in naturopathic medicine, the accredited schools offer 2 ND year programs for MDs. i think the additional training in naturopathic therapies would be a great asset to the kind of medicine i want to practice. i am keeping this in mind for later in my career, time and money permitting. then i will know EVERYTHING😉

 

[chameleonknight]

Naturopathic is a JOKE, and it is dangerous.

Guess what their new favorite thing to treat is? CANCER. These uneducated quacks think they are oncologists now.

Some members of my family are really into this garbage; I had a second cousin die of ovarian cancer after she tried to go the "natural" route. True, there's no guarantee that an allopath would've saved her, but at least science would've been on her side.

I went to see a naturopath ONCE and let me tell you, the stuff they do would scare the living hell out of you. I watched a ND place several bottles of pills on a "patients" body, proceed to touch each bottle while performing a strenght test on the patient's arm (I swear to God this is 100% true) She said that the patient's body was "Calling" for calcium and phosphorous. I couldnt believe it.

Is this 1000 A.D.? Should I get out my cauldron next and prepare some dragon eggs for a poultice?

These people should all be arrested for practicing medicine without a license or murder or preferably both. Please don't waste any time with this dangerous nonsense. NDs try to pretend they are similar to MDs or DOs but its just not true.

On an interesting side note...I met my first Amish family in the ND waiting room

 

[Mistress S]

I think this thread is really interesting, and I share some opinions with people on both sides of the debate. Living in Portland, I am very familiar with ND's--I have met many aspiring ones in my pre-med classes, and I have known many people who go to them instead of regular practitioners. My school offers a 1 credit "intro to premed" class, which was interesting in that they had all kinds of medical pracitioners--MD, DO, and ND--come give presentations and answer questions. I found the ND presentation very interesting. On the one hand, I think their holistic approach is right on (as far as treating the whole person), but on the other hand, what they teach is essentially a hodgepodge of "alternative" medical practices (homeopathy, herbalism, acupuncture, etc.) that, at one time or another, were all popular with the mainstream, but for a variety of reasons, including in many cases lack of scientific credibility, failed to make it into the now predominant allopathic curriculum. Around the turn of the century, allopathic physicians were considered the quacks on the fringe, while homeopathy was hugely popular and respected. I think there is value in their appraoch and in some of their treatments, but there are many other problems with the profession itself.

It was very apparent to me that the presenters, who were all students or graduates of the local ND school, were struggling with a desire to have the benefits (respect, income) of traditional MD's while maintaining their "outsider" status and insisting they were happy with that. ND's are very limited, they can only legally practice in 7 states and the competition in those states among them is therefore huge, as there are way more graduates of these programs each year than there are clients with the cash ready to pay them for their services. Insurance companies are slowly starting to come around and pay for some of their services, but the irony of this is that if they become fully covered by HMO's some day the way MD's are, it's going to be damn near impossible for them to maintain their current healthcare philosophies and still get paid. Another thing that struck me was the lack of standards in the school--no MCAT, no GPA requirements to get in. Basically, anyone with the money can go, and staying in requires minimal effort. There's no residency to worry about, so it's not like how you perform in the program really matters in the furture. I would be concerned about this if I were going to see an ND, as the lack of standardized training and student qualifications would mean that the quality of practitioners probably varies a great deal.

I think several posters have made good points in that many people are driven to see ND's because they're not getting something they need from MD's. Of course, this is not entirely the MD's fault--it is a lot easier to provide personalized care and attention when you don't have any insurance beaurocracy to worry about and are collecting your $80 cash per hour upfront. It is true that perception of care depends a great deal on whether the patient feels that he/she was listened to and cared for, not just on the effectiveness of the treatment. We should learn from that and try to care for our whole patient, not just the symptoms they are exhibiting, as someone said earlier. I also think it is good to remain open-minded, as many of your future patients may also see ND's or utilize their treatments, and it is important to be respectful and not dismissive if you don't want to drive people further away. After all, allopathic medicine doesn't have it all figured out yet, and there is room in my mind for alternatives to the mainstream. For me, I think the best way to go is to incorporate as much as possible the holistic approach to patient care of natural medicine with the scientific credibility of allopathic training, and keep my mind open to the possiblities offered by ways of thinking that differ from my own.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by usmaple
I have no idea what thread you're talking about, but are you sure he didn't say NP's (nurse practitioners)? NP's and PA's are getting more and more practice rights, but ND's are still proudly mired in quackery.

No this is what he said. I don't know if it's true or not.

Originally posted by MacGyver
Lets back away from PAs for a second and look at another threat: the naturopathic (ND) doctor.

Arizona and California recently passed laws giving NDs full practice rights as physicians.

1) They can prescribe any drug they want to, with no oversight

2) They dont have to complete residencies

3) They are not supervised by MD/DOs

4) They can open up their own hospitals/clinics with no involvement with MDs/DOs.

 

[Tezzie]

Even if NDs can prescribe any drug they want to ... doesn't that go against their philosophy?

 

[TexasRose]

I have to throw in a story here because I think it highlights one of the dangers of unregulated alternative medicine. Before I do, though, my sister-in-law has been successfully treating my niece's ear infections with naturopathic remedies for a couple of years. They often consulted one before heading to a pediatrician.

My neice was having some medical problems and her Pedi and hosp docs were unable, at the time, to pinpoint the cause. They suspected a nasty viral infection. So... very worried about her 4 yr old daughter, my sister-in-law took her to a self-proclamed naturopath who had helped a friend of a friend.

This man took a blood sample and told my her that my niece had "sticky blood" (rouleau?) and that she needed to follow some strict dietary guidelines. (ie- no diary, no wheat..) He also suggested she might have a wheat allergy, causing all her probs. In addition, he claimed he SAW a viral infection on the surface of her red blood cells. oh yeah, and he charged her hundreds of dollars for that brilliant insight.

Fast forward a couple of weeks, she gets sick again and goes to the Denver hospital, she has Leukemia!!! ( she was too early in the disease process for it to be detected 3 months earlier in the hosp.)

Had my sister-in-law believed that idiot, how sick would my niece have gotten before he admitted he had no earthly idea what was going on???

I have nothing against naturopaths, but I have a lot against that quack!😡 Buyer beware...

 

[Jasminegab]

It's funny how naturopathic medicine has come unto the SDN message board lately, but what's even more funny is reading the many post from uneducated people making statments which they know nothing about.

For example: " There are only 4 states that license Naturopathic Physicians." Now this one is really funny because last I read and know about, the number is now up to 12 and pending 2 additional states.

Another example worth mentioning: "Naturpathy is not covered under health insurance." Once again, another statement made out of ignorance. But, what point is it to educate, after all, aren't ND's "Quacks?"

Did we not go through the same issues with DO's years ago? What is Ostepathy? What is a Doctor of Ostepath? Aren't we the only country that acknowledges DO's? I mean aren't we the only country that allow DO's the freedom and prescriptive rights of a MD without a MD being present? Why do we Americans think DO's are equal to MD, yet ND's are "Quacks" compared to DO's and MD's?

Someone please remind me what DO's do? What is thier philosophy of medical treatment? O...I forgot, Osteopathy shares the same philosophy as Allopathic Medicine therefore Ostepathy is much more scientific evidence based than Naturopathy, after all don't we have neurosurgeons who are Ostepaths? And we sure don't have anymore room for any more "Qaucks" to join the healthcare team because then we jepordize our potential salaries of at least $100,000 a year to pay off our Med School Loans. Dang those Naturopaths
🙄

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by Jasminegab
Someone please remind me what DO's do? What is thier philosophy of medical treatment? O...I forgot, Osteopathy shares the same philosophy as Allopathic Medicine therefore Ostepathy is much more scientific evidence based than Naturopathy,

DOs prescribe the same things that MDs do. In practice, there is no real difference between MDs and DOs. However, NDs are on the extreme in alternative medicine by not prescribing conventional medicine and believing in herbs and things of that nature.

As a result, NDs are different from MDs and DOs. Your argument is flawed.

 

[Shinken]

DO's = prescribe all drugs, believe in vaccinations (a big one!), perform surgery, specialize in anything they want, participate freely in any residency opportunity (AOA and ACGME), can practice in many foreign countries and all 50 US states, are the legal and professional equivalent of MD's.

ND's = can only practice in a few states, don't prescribe drugs, don't believe in vaccinations (what?!?!?!?!), cannot specialize, cannot participate in any residency opportunity (AOA or ACGME), cannot practice in any foreign country except some places in Canada, are not the legal or professional equivalent of MD's.

Those are the differences. Please do not compare osteopathic medicine with naturopathy. I don't feel threatened by ND's any more than I feel threatened by herbalists or homeopaths. It's a free country, and if people want to pay for those "therapies" it's their prerogative. But don't compare the true medical professions with alternative practices.

Did we not go through the same issues with DO's years ago? What is Ostepathy? What is a Doctor of Ostepath? Aren't we the only country that acknowledges DO's? I mean aren't we the only country that allow DO's the freedom and prescriptive rights of a MD without a MD being present? Why do we Americans think DO's are equal to MD, yet ND's are "Quacks" compared to DO's and MD's?

No, we're not the only country that acknowledges DO's. No, we're not the only country that allows DO's freedom and prescriptive rights of an MD without an MD being present. DO's are equal to MD's. DO's can participate in any training that MD's qualify for, can work in the same hospitals in the same specialties, get paid the same, have the same billing codes as MD's and can belong to the same medical societies, be certified by the same boards, etc. etc. For all intensive purposes, a DO is the same as an MD. Same courses, same books, same curriculums, same rotations many times in the same hospitals.

When osteopathic medicine was created, *ALL* medical therapies were goofy. The osteopaths believed all diseases could be cured by manipulating the musculoskeletal system. Homeopaths believed water had a brain that could "remember" what was dissolved in it (a drop in 1000 gallons), allopaths believed the best way to cure people was with arsenic and mercury and to bleed several pints out of the patient, etc. etc. Allopathic medicine got with the program, became scientific and now look at it. Osteopathic medicine did the same and got with the program. Now osteopathic and allopathic medicine are at the top of the medical food chain. Homeopathy, acupuncture, herbalism, magnetic healing, et. al. never got with the program and remain goofy today. Those modalities are all part of Naturopathy. You figure it out.

By the way, were you vaccinated as a child against pertussis, tetanus, hepatitis, measles, etc.? Be glad you weren't seen by an ND. You could be dead today.

 

[Jasminegab]

Originally posted by Shinken
DO's = prescribe all drugs, believe in vaccinations (a big one!), perform surgery, specialize in anything they want, participate freely in any residency opportunity (AOA and ACGME), can practice in many foreign countries and all 50 US states, are the legal and professional equivalent of MD's.

ND's = can only practice in a few states, don't prescribe drugs, don't believe in vaccinations (what?!?!?!?!), cannot specialize, cannot participate in any residency opportunity (AOA or ACGME), cannot practice in any foreign country, are not the legal or professional equivalent of MD's.

Those are the differences. Please do not compare osteopathic medicine with naturopathy. It's like comparing allopathic medicine and magnetic healing. I don't feel threatened by ND's any more than I feel threatened by herbalists or homeopaths. It's a free country, and if people want to pay for those "therapies" it's their prerogative. But don't compare the true medical professions (MD, DO, PA, NP) with alternative practices. Like someone said, "there's no alternative to real medicine."

Let me play educator for those who failed to take any medical history course or who slept in the back of the classroom while the professor gave lectures.

What is Osteopathy?
Osteopathic medicine is a complete system of medical care. The philosophy is to treat the whole person, not just the symptoms. It emphasizes the interrelationships of structure and function, and the appreciation of the body's ability to heal itself. Did you read that last part? The Body's ability to heal itself? Allopathic medicine says this is a bunch of crap. Allopathic medicine says that only with the aid of drugs and surgery can the body heal itself.

Hmmmmm...If you ask me...this sounds very simular to the teaching of naturopathic physicians.

What is Naturopathy?
Naturopathic Medicine is a distinctively natural approach to health and healing that recognizes the integrity of the whole person. Naturopathic Medicine is heir to the vitalistic tradition of medicine in the Western world, emphasizing the treatment of disease through the stimulation, enhancement, and support of the inherent healing capacity of the person.

Did you see that part which said it's heir is in the Western World? More on this on your 11 o'clock news.

Rather than tear your response to shreds, I'll say again as in my previous post, Get educated about the history of Medicine (all forms of medicine not just Allopathic Medicine) before you start to post misguided words that show your ignorance in terms of Alternative Healthcare Systems.

What ignorance am I referring too? Or, perhaps the only ignoranct person on this forum is me? Well let's examine what you posted and half the other ignorant pre-med's have posted concerning Althernative Medicine.

1.) Osteopathy has been around for over a 125yrs much longer than Allopathic medicine. So has naturopathic medicine. In fact, Allopathic medicine is a relatively new science compared with the other forms of treatment of illness and health. DO's fought for years just to be recognized once the AMA took over healthcare in America some 50 or so years ago, when it was possible for anyone to become a doctor, yes you read that correct anyone just by mail order or working alongside of a MD, and Allopathic medicine was thought of as the Quack field of medicine-prescribing drugs or proforming surgery to cure illness was never though of until the allopathic time period. Lastly, Since the AMA had no power on foriegn soil, they could not force Osteopathy nor Naturopathy nor other Alternative Medicial feilds to disban. However, the AMA convinced american government that healthcare needed to be structured and controlled here in American and the powers were given to the AMA only in America. This lead to the closing of many medical school including Naturopathy, Osteopathy, and even some fluke Allopathic medical schools. This resulted in a shortage of space open in the few remaining medical schools approved by the AMA. Thus medical school became what we know it to be today, extremly competive, doggy dog world where people comit crimes and will bribe thier way into medicial school. On the other hand, Naturopathy, Osteopathy and other forms of Alternative medical fields thrived outside of America and have only just recently started to show back up here in the US-including Osteopathy-after a demand from the public who are becoming more and more distainful with medical treatment that focuses only the treating the systoms rather than the cause.

Someone help me on this...What are the current Stats on how many people die each year from allopathic medical treatment? Somewhere in the vicinity of 100,000 people a year? Whatever the numbers, It's way higher than any other form of healing art being used today and you say that naturopathy is a "Quack?"

2.)You are gravely miseducated when you say that naturopaths are not licensed in any forigen country. Where do you think naturopathy oringinated from? Sure wasn't America. In the majority of other countries, only licensed naturopaths can practice or be called Naturopathic Medical Doctors. Do your research. Europe is one place. India another place. China another place. Japan another place. I'm sure there our other countries which I have not listed.

Well class enough for today...Homework is research the history of medicine on the internet and present a fact finding response. Do not turn in work that has not been proven as a fact. State your sources.

 

[Shinken]

OK, I'm done here.

I'm perfectly aware of the history of medicine. By the way, osteopathic medicine did NOT exist before allopathic medicine. Osteopathic medicine was created by an allopathic physician (an MD) called Andrew Still (middle name Taylor). That won't be on tonight's news because it's old news. Apparently not to some, though.

I'm not interested in arguing back and forth because my experience tells me we won't go anywhere. If you think you can serve your patients well with a degree in naturopathic medicine, so be it. I just believe that ND's are just plain WRONG. Vitalism is nonsense. Homeopathy is so ridiculous I'm not even going to spend time talking about it. Not vaccinating children should be grounds for prosecution in this day and age (a form of child abuse?).

I don't care about medical history because that's just it: history. Allopathy and osteopathy are worlds apart from what they were 100 years ago. Unfortunately, naturopathy is still operating as it did 100 years ago.

Arguing about these things with people like you is pointless. Your logic is flawed, your ideas are just plain wrong but you won't listen. What do you do when someone believes that a drop of arsenic can be dissolved in 1000 gallons of water and the water will retain the "memory" of the arsenic? You can try to use logic, chemistry, science and just plain common sense but if someone like an ND believes in that, there's not much you can do. It's like science against religion. One is based on observable fact, the other in "faith". Good luck with your medical career, and wish me luck in mine.

 

[drlexygoat]

I think that naturopathic medicine has its place as a supplement to more traditional medicinal therapies. There's not one person who could convince me that a ND could heal broken bones or protect against illnesses like rubella with holisitic methods.

However, I think ND medicine certainly has its benefits for some ailments, especially in the realm of preventative care.

I think it's exciting to see that more MD adn DO schools are offering coursework in natural remedies. The students don't nec. need to practice it, but they do need to be aware of these treatments, especially since so many can be "prescribed" and followed by a patient without a doctor's note or Rx.

 

[wow]

Jasminegab-

I noticed that you are a "dual major MD/NMD" (your signature line).. Does this mean you are studying naturopathic medicine too?

Also, where is St. Luke's?

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by wow
Also, where is St. Luke's?

St. Luke's is in Belize. Maybe in Belize naturopathy is thriving.

 

[dan0909]

belize is where its at

 

[TexasRose]

Jasminegab, do you promote the use of wheat free diets to treat childhood leukemia??? 🙄

You haven't educated anyone with your attitude. You've cemented some people's feelings that ND's are quacks with your reactionary preaching. If you want to promote naturopathy's place in medicine you're going to need to work on your approach.

Theresa

 

[Jasminegab]

Originally posted by Slickness
St. Luke's is in Belize. Maybe in Belize naturopathy is thriving.

There is a St. Luke University School of Medicine in Belize but no St. luke School of Medicine in Belize. The names are simular but the schools are different.

SLUSM is a carribean medical school. Program is only 4yrs and only offers MD degree.

SLSOM is a international medical school in Africa. Programs range from MSc in Nursing, a 6 1/2 yr High School to MD program, RN-MSN Program and a 4yr MD program. St.Luke school of medicine is not considered an offshore medical school but an international medical school.

I will be attending the med school in Africa...actually my first three and half years will be spent in Pune, India as I dual major in MD/NMD (India has a strong population for Integrative Medicine-Naturopathy and Allopathy). My last 2 yrs will be spent here in the US for rotations and clinicals.

Anyone who wants info on St.Luke School of Medicine, it's location, majors offered, please P.M me. I will be happy to discuss information with you as much as I can although my info will be limited since I will not arrive to the campus until Fall 2004.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by Jasminegab
There is a St. Luke University School of Medicine in Belize but no St. luke School of Medicine in Belize. The names are simular but the schools are different.

Oh ok. My bad.

 

[Clemson Doc]

Several poor (and dangerous) assumptions are being made here about naturopathy and its effectiveness. Namely, the assumption that it can't possibly be valid if allopathic medicine doesn't embrace it. Unwarranted arrogance aside, that assumption is laughable.

As someone else mentioned, "alternative" therapies have been around for thousands of years. Some people act like the treatments were just invented in the early '90's. There are very credible scientific tests that have confirmed the effectiveness of many of these treatments. Just because you haven't heard of those studies doesn't mean they don't exist.

The fact that naturopathy is not licensed has led to some misconceptions. First, the scope of practice for naturopaths is not as defined as for allopathic medical doctors. All naturopaths do not believe in accupuncture, just like all naturopaths are not hippie, Birkenstock-wearing, weird people (anyone who buys that stereotype is obviously quite uninformed about the profession). Lock ten M.D.'s in a room to discuss treatment of a health concern, and they are all very likely to agree. Lock ten N.D.'s in a room to discuss treatment of a health concern, and you're likely to get a wide variety of answers and some intense arguments on your hands. Regardless, naturopaths as a whole are making real strides to treat people's illnesses that weren't (gasp!) treated effectively by allopathic medicine.

Finally, the notion that all naturopaths are "anti-allopathic medicine" is laughable. I know naturopaths who realize that allopathic medicine has its place, just like naturopathy has its place (a truly integrative philosophy). The move toward giving students exposure to alternative therapies in some medical schools is a very progressive and needed move...not simply because the public is interested in it, but because the less closed-minded doctors-to-be can actually consider learning more about those therapies and using them with their patients.

After all, doctoring is about doing what's best for the patient. Like it or not, the "get this prescription filled and see me in 6 weeks" strategy isn't optimal. When I'm out of medical school, I hope to take the best of both worlds in order to help my patients. Anything less, and my patients aren't getting their money's worth.

 

[DrMom]

Please make your points without ridiculing another poster like this.

 

[tofurious]

How can you guys take one of the above posts seriously when among all the weak arguments for how osteopathic medicine is greater than allopathic medicine, he uses the term "doggy dog" to describe medical school competition???

I't s Dog EAT Dog, my friend. Snoopy would be proud of you though.

And Snoopy would find it funny that the DOs on this board say "NO, WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS NATUROPATHS.", and the ND proponents are saying "BUT WE ARE GOING THROUGH WHAT DOS WENT THROUGH!"

With my MD and PhD, I am confident and comfortable to recommend leafy greens, vitamins, aspirin, and relaxation technique to anyone (with the exception of leafy greens for folks on Coumadin). Balanced nutrition and preventive care only make good sense, and don't need their own brand of medicine. Would I let my patients get acupuncture? Sure, as long as they take their antibiotics. Would I let them see a chiropractor? Sure, as long they stay below the neck. These are COMPLIMENTARY therapies - not meant to replace STANDARD OF CARE.

And I find the concept of an osteopathic neurosurgeon funny. Doesn't that go against the CORE of osteopathic philosophy?

 

[Jasminegab]

Originally posted by Tbonez
<quote><b>Quote by Jasminegab (silly twerp)</b>
<i>Let me play educator for those who failed to take any medical history course or who slept in the back of the classroom while the professor gave lectures.

What is Osteopathy?
Osteopathic medicine is a complete system of medical care. The philosophy is to treat the whole person, not just the symptoms. It emphasizes the interrelationships of structure and function, and the appreciation of the body's ability to heal itself. Did you read that last part? The Body's ability to heal itself? <b>Allopathic medicine says this is a bunch of crap. Allopathic medicine says that only with the aid of drugs and surgery can the body heal itself.</b></i>
</quote>

Huh, HAHAHAHA! Are you crazy? You think Allopathic medicine thinks the bodies ability to heal itself is a bunch of crap? HAHAHA! Holy SHI*! Are you just dumb or what? Do you even know what immunology is? Here let me help you. Did you ever hear of inflammation? Perhaps the words "natural killer cells"? Do the terms B lymphocyte, cytokines, or chemotaxis ring a bell?
HMM! Oh, yeah. All of these things help the body HEAL itself!!! Golly, (slapping self in forehead) I know!!! Are you even a premed? I think you're on the wrong post little girl. Try the fantasyland post, where people don't need vaccinations, and where people can freeze time and critical changes occuring in their bodies while they visit a naturopath to get their phlegm thickened, or their "black blood" lightened.
Come on, seriously. Think before you post. Of course MD's recognize the bodies ability to heal itself. To compare MD's and DO's to some ND is silly. You only make yourself look stupid.

I will not feed into this. It's apparent from your last post your intellectual level. OOGA OOGA BOOGA BOOGA??? What's this supposed to mean, that no good physicians come from Africa? Are you one of those suppremist groups that feel only european is superior? Also, What the heck does immulogy have do to with my quotes? My Quotes where made from a reputable source, they are not my opinion. They were used to show the simularity of both Osteopathy and Naturopathy. You totally missed the point and went on to try an beliitle me.

FYI: I didn't know that anyone without a pre-medical background could get into medical school including taking the MCAT. If so, let me know because I would feel that my last 12yrs of education was a waste including the fact that I'm a registered medical assistant with 5yrs of surgery, hospital and clinical training.

God, and this is the person that someone will call Doctor someday? You should be ashamed of yourself for even making a statemet like this!

Anywho, I said what I had to say. I believe in Allopathic medicine and I believe in Naturopathic medicine. I believe that they can work hand in hand. In fact I know they can work hand in hand. Allopathic medicine does not have the answer to every illness out there nor does Naturopathy. If it did, there would be no one dying from HIV/AIDS and there would be a cure for a simple STD like Herpes and the common cold virus would not exist?

Before you try to riddicle someone next time. Show a little intelligence rather than ignorance.

 

[Clemson Doc]

I believe in Allopathic medicine and I believe in Naturopathic medicine. I believe that they can work hand in hand. In fact I know they can work hand in hand.

And you, Jasminegab, are going to be an awesome physician. Best of luck to you!

 

[Jasminegab]

Originally posted by Tbonez
I would like to personally apologize to all of you. The previous posts under my user name were NOT made by me, but in fact by another nameless indivdual on my computer. which was left logged in, as I often like to peruse the posts. Seems I need to lock my door or logoff when I'm not online. I have since deleted the offensive posts, and have had some words.
Again, my most sincere apologies to Jasmine and others.

No problem....apology accepted

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by drusso
ND's cannot practice medicine and surgery the way that DO's and MD's do. They also cannot specialize. You cannot be a naturopathic neurosurgeon.

True, but in California and Arizona, a naturopathic doctor can do EVERYTHING that a family practice or internal med doc can do.

They have full prescription rights with no supervision. They are even allowed to script schedule II narcotics in those states.

Other states are following suit.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by Shinken
They don't perform surgery (only minor stuff like suturing lacerations) or prescribe drugs (unless they're "natural" herbal-type drugs). They're not a threat. They're just one more option that people have when choosing a health care provider.

They cant do surgeries, but they CAN AND DO write prescriptions for natural medicines as well as the full pharmacopeia available to MDs and DOs.

Arizona and California gave them full and equal practice rights as that of an internal med doc or family physician. They can do ANYTHING an FP can do.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by Slickness
Interesting. So why in that thread in the allopathic forum was MacGyver saying that NDs have gained full practice rights just like MDs and DOs in CA and AZ. I had never heard of an ND before now.

BECAUSE ITS TRUE!

Go look up the recent bill put into law by California governor Gray Davis.

Arizona has had full practice scope for NDs for a couple of years I believe.

When I say full practice rights, I'm talking about the field of internal medicine and family practice. NDs are not allowed to do brain surgery, but they can write scripts for any drug just like a family physician would.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by gjrbryant
The problem with ND's is that 0% of what they bill is paid by insurance companies. (There are no CPT codes for N.P's)
Services are C.O.D.! Unless you live in an area where the public has extra cash laying around you are not going to be collecting anything. This may be ok if you are going to open your own practice but no one is going to hire you if your collections won't give them a return on investment. As far as opening your own practice, plan on living on credit for a while, M.D's don't refer to N.D's. Your talking about cold hard pavement pounding for patients. To be honest a P.A. is 10X a better field. A P.A. can be certified in everything a N.D. can do and they can bill office visits to insurance. It's cheaper for a practice to hire a P.A. than another M.D. and the profit margin is higher for the P.A.. So, for those of you who are looking for an easier route think P.A.

I wouldnt relax just yet. You bet your ass that when these NDs start getting patients, insurance companies WILL start reimbursing them.

Think about it. Why pay a family practice MD/DO $80 to do something when an ND will do the exact same thing and be perfectly happy being reimbursed $50?

After all, NDs dont have to go through residency so they only need 4 years of training post college and they can prescribe any drug they want to.

 

[MacGyver]

Also, I wouldnt relax on the NDs specializing issue also.

Its true that right now, the ND degree is not recognized as the necessary prereq for ACGME accredited residencies.

HOWEVER, the ND lobbying organizations are actively fighting this, and trying to get the ACGME and the ACOGME to recognize NDs as an alternative to MD/DO prerequisite degrees.

Remember, in California and Arizona, if you are a family practice or internal med MD/DO, then your job duties can be 100% taken over by an ND.

Its true that NDs CURRENTLY cant specialize into stuff like neurosurgery or radiology, but if you think its always going to stay that way, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[MacGyver]

Some of you guys seem to think that NDs would never prescribe western medicines, even if they had the power to (which they do in 2 states).

Trust me, the huge $$ available from insurance companies will encourage them to change their mind.

Think about it. You can hunt and search for a rich community and do your homeopathic thing, or you can settle anywhere you want to and get reimbursed by insurance companies if you start prescribing western medicines. Thats a HUGE motivation for NDs to use both homeopathy stuff AND western medicine.

 

[moo]

I think jasmine has confused Osteopathy with Osteopathic medicine. Osteopathic medicine grew out of allopathic medicine in the late 1800s, while osteopathy is something similar to chiropractic.