I recently came across this new PA (Physician Assistant) program in Bridgeport Ct that claims to have an emphasis on what they call "integrated medicine". This school has Naturopaths teaching the PA students medicine classes such as patho. They also plan to teach PA students chiropractic and acupuncture in addition to naturopathic CAM. What do you guys think about this? Would you hire a PA from this program?
Naturopathic Physicians teaching PA's?
- Thread starter alllife
- Start date
D
deleted87716
"Integrative" (correct spelling) medicine basically means mixing sense with nonsense. "Give the people what they want," and all that rubbish.
There are only two kinds of "medicine." That which has been scientifically demonstrated to be safe and effective, and that which hasn't.
Completely agree! This is what I found;
the program[UB] is unique because it also
will expose students to integrative medical care through
interaction with acupuncture, chiropractic, and
naturopathic practicesall of which are part of UBs
Health Sciences Divisionwhile placing an emphasis
on global health, said Dr. Dan Cervonka, who will
serve as director of the Institute.
I was asked to write a LOR for someone that wanted to apply to this program. I had heard that the University itself was in bad shape since the Moonies (aka Unitarian church), bought It, so I looked into things a bit deeper and found the above information. SKETCHY.........
D
deleted6669
it's not as bad as you made it sound. I checked out their website.
it's 5 units out of 128 total for the program in "integrative medicine".
every program has blow off classes(even in med school). this is theirs.
the rest of the program looks pretty standard and all the rotations are standard pa school fare(surgery, em, psych, IM, etc).
it's 5 units out of 128 total for the program in "integrative medicine".
every program has blow off classes(even in med school). this is theirs.
the rest of the program looks pretty standard and all the rotations are standard pa school fare(surgery, em, psych, IM, etc).
Last edited by a moderator:
The problem I have with it is in the whole picture. The chiropractic, acupuncture and naturopathic stuff AND medicine classes being taught by these guys, just seems kinda sketchy to me.
I wouldnt want one of these grads in my practice and as far a I know there is no such thing as ND-PA's or DC-PA's
D
deleted6669
this is a regular pa program with 3 special interest classes in integrative medicine. I don't know anyone involved and have no relationship to the program but in its defense it's not that different than what some med schools do...
this took me about 2 seconds to find..it lists similar courses at > 50 us medical schools....guess I can't hire anyone who went to any of these either.....
http://www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu/MD_Courses.html
this took me about 2 seconds to find..it lists similar courses at > 50 us medical schools....guess I can't hire anyone who went to any of these either.....
http://www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu/MD_Courses.html
D
deleted87716
And you know this because...you've attended med school? So, what are the "blow off" courses in med school?
D
deleted6669
see link in post #6 above.
D
deleted87716
Be specific.
FYI, I had no "S(CAM)" courses in med school.
Nonetheless, if it were legitimate, why would it be a "blow off" course? I don't think anyone would be too keen on paying tuition for bull****.
D
deleted6669
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Ed...-Based-Non-Clinical-Selectives.aspx#bioethics
check out required nonclinical selectives(bioethics section) see BH501....
my point is that every single program out there has "filler classes" which may have some value to some people but you don't really need them in your practice.
are you telling me that there isn't a single 1 unit class from your medschool that you thought was frivolous at the time and that you now know in retrospect that you could have done without?
we had 1 and only 1; "biopsychosocial issues in health care". important stuff, but you would have to have been born on the moon not to know the material before class started. did you know that folks with disabilities have barriers to accessing healthcare? or that veterans might? or members of immigrant cultures that don't speak english? you don't say...rocket science....
looking at the link in post 6 it appears that medeical schools in 35 states + puerto rico have cam courses as parts of their curriculum. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that this 1 pa program that I know next to nothing about should not be diregarded because it does what many medical school programs now do as well.
check out required nonclinical selectives(bioethics section) see BH501....
my point is that every single program out there has "filler classes" which may have some value to some people but you don't really need them in your practice.
are you telling me that there isn't a single 1 unit class from your medschool that you thought was frivolous at the time and that you now know in retrospect that you could have done without?
we had 1 and only 1; "biopsychosocial issues in health care". important stuff, but you would have to have been born on the moon not to know the material before class started. did you know that folks with disabilities have barriers to accessing healthcare? or that veterans might? or members of immigrant cultures that don't speak english? you don't say...rocket science....
looking at the link in post 6 it appears that medeical schools in 35 states + puerto rico have cam courses as parts of their curriculum. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that this 1 pa program that I know next to nothing about should not be diregarded because it does what many medical school programs now do as well.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
deleted87716
Seriously, dude... It's 11 freakin' o'clock, and some of us have to work tomorrow. You pointed me to an umpteen-page course curricula of ELECTIVES at ONE school. If you can't flat-out state your point, we're done here.
One point to be taken is that real medical classes like patho, in real medical school like Columbia are not taught by ND's DC's and acupuncturists. They are taught by real doctors like MD's and PhD's. And most PA schools utilize the talents of PA's, MD's and PhD's for science and medicine classes. And so to use your example, No, if the grads from Columbia were educated by ND's and DC's you should not hire them.
D
deleted87716
D
deleted6669
as far as I can tell from their website the cam practitioners only teach in 3 classes in integrative medicine. all the listed faculty at the program are pa's or md's.
D
deleted6669
those are selectives as in you have to take one....
look at the link in my post 6.
multiple medschool programs with cam courses right there.
ucla and ucsf for starters.
or read this about the increasing trend of cam taught in us med schools.:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33574830/ns/health-alternative_medicine/
D
deleted87716
So, you're suggesting that students at these schools are required to take (S)CAM courses? I doubt that.
All of the courses mentioned in that article are electives, and are more about "CAM awareness" than how to use CAM in practice.
Last edited by a moderator:
Only some of the main administrative faculty are listed on the website, not the didactic professors and instructors for the science and medicine classes. The admin people (the ones pushing papers all day) are the PA's and there is one MD who acts as the medical director of the program. The program actually uses the existing ND. DC and acupuncture faculty from the other CAM programs in the university! I guess it saves money but what the heck are they churning out?? I predict it wont last long.
D
deleted6669
I predict no one will care as long as grads pass the standard natl exams just like no one cares if someone took a cam course in medschool. those courses are in addition to standard coursework, not in place of anything important.
what, did you apply and not get in? why your beef? there are lots of different focus programs for anything...colorado does peds, cornell does surgery, bridgeport does cam/global medicine. if you don't like it, don't go there....there are 154 pa programs to choose from, maybe pick another....
Last edited by a moderator:
D
deleted6669
at least when I went to pa school the vast majority of students were attending as a second medical career. they had already been nurses, rt's, medics, etc for years before. you can't work in healthcare for any length of time and not know the stuff taught in this and similar courses and FWIW em folks probably know about "barriers to healthcare" better than anyone. we see everyone, anytime, turn no one away, and are left holding the bag when the local medical community says they have "met their medicaid pt requirement for the month and won't be accepting new pts". great. I'll see you back here in the er every day for the next 2 weeks until we get your xyz issue under control....
Ok, Ill tell you "why my beef". These kids are going to be out there treating patients (not my patients, thats for sure!) and they need to know the difference between real medicine and S(CAM) medicine. How are they going to know if their being taught by S(CAM) instructors? Im sick and tired of all these "PA" schools popping up all over the place as cash cows for a few years because its the "new in career" and universities can bang out quick big bucks and they are churning out crap! This program takes it to a whole new level by targeting people who couldnt otherwise get into a real reputable PA schools and looking at a nitch and hook to get applicants. Its flat out irresponsible and makes a mockery of medicine in general and the PA profession. I see you are a PA, I would think you would want more for your profession then S(CAM) fly-by-night programs like this.
We get it, you are good with Bull **** programs like this representing YOUR profession. Move on..
D
deleted6669
as long as they can pass the boards they know enough "real medicine" to do as well as grads from any other program.
I'm not saying this is a great program, I just don't understand your beef based on 5 flaky units out of an otherwise solid 128 unit curriculum. would I go there? probably not. but if someone wanted to I wouldn't discourage them, at least not at this point. it's a new program. those 3 courses might become 1 course or disappear entirely within a yr or 2.
my former program is very different than when I attended. program curriculum at any school is constantly under review and subject to change yr to yr.
if their first few classes do poorly on the boards and it becomes known in clinical circles that their program is flaky then I will join you in steering folks away( and if you review my posts here you will see that there are programs that I tell folks to steer clear of).. until then I'm willing to keep an open mind about it.
as you might guess from my signature and avatar I have no problem with them adding a global health emphasis. nothing flaky about tropical and underserved medicine. I'm spending quite a bit of my own money above and beyond my cme pursuing a tropical/global medicine certification typically only undertaken by physicians( DTM&H, CTropMed).
I'm not saying this is a great program, I just don't understand your beef based on 5 flaky units out of an otherwise solid 128 unit curriculum. would I go there? probably not. but if someone wanted to I wouldn't discourage them, at least not at this point. it's a new program. those 3 courses might become 1 course or disappear entirely within a yr or 2.
my former program is very different than when I attended. program curriculum at any school is constantly under review and subject to change yr to yr.
if their first few classes do poorly on the boards and it becomes known in clinical circles that their program is flaky then I will join you in steering folks away( and if you review my posts here you will see that there are programs that I tell folks to steer clear of).. until then I'm willing to keep an open mind about it.
as you might guess from my signature and avatar I have no problem with them adding a global health emphasis. nothing flaky about tropical and underserved medicine. I'm spending quite a bit of my own money above and beyond my cme pursuing a tropical/global medicine certification typically only undertaken by physicians( DTM&H, CTropMed).
- Joined
- May 2, 2003
- Messages
- 67
- Reaction score
- 0
wow, there are some really close minded people here. Alternative medicine has its place in healthcare, and used properly it works very well. It never ceases to amaze me on how people that don't have a clue about a subject seem to think they should have an opinion on it.
I as a PA have unfortunately seen too many people in their 50's and above, bedbound because of failed back surgeries. Maybe....just maybe... they could have ended up being rehabilitated going conservatively to an alternative medicine doctor first instead to a "real" doctor (ortho or neurosurgeon) as a first option.
I as a PA have unfortunately seen too many people in their 50's and above, bedbound because of failed back surgeries. Maybe....just maybe... they could have ended up being rehabilitated going conservatively to an alternative medicine doctor first instead to a "real" doctor (ortho or neurosurgeon) as a first option.
D
deleted6669
https://nf.aafp.org/FellowshipDirectory/Search/SearchDetails/2f84fb3b-24f2-4f06-8da8-0dc2c4400d1b
apparently some folks think this stuff is worth looking at....there are several other approved fellowships in accupuncture, etc for boarded fp docs as well....this is just the first one on the list
apparently some folks think this stuff is worth looking at....there are several other approved fellowships in accupuncture, etc for boarded fp docs as well....this is just the first one on the list
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2009
- Messages
- 606
- Reaction score
- 0
Is this not common practice with the exception of the "alternative" medicine doctor involvement? Most of the medical literature that I've seen does not really support surgery as a particularly effective primary intervention for pain. Neurological issues perhaps, but not pain when compared to conservative treatment.
If this be the case, why even worry about said "alternative" doctor? Your primary physician can develop a plan and send you off to physiotherapy without having to go through another doctor. Generally, I've seen surgery considered after these conservative therapies have failed. Many of the guidelines that I've seen also suggest a trial of conservative treatment and perhaps the involvement of a pain physician. I see no need for these alternative providers.
In fact, this is what happened when I herniated a few discs in my lumbar spine. My doc told me I'd hurt for the rest of my life, but could have a good chance at managing the pain conservatively. He showed me some stretches and off I went to a little PT. Currently, doing quite well. Never once was told to have surgery and I was even told that surgery would be a last resort. Nor did I ask for or was I given any narcotics. OTC ibuprofen and good old PT was all. Why have an alternative doctor manage my occasional doses of ibuprofen and PT appointments? Anecdotal as my story may be, I do think this back business can often be effectively managed by physicians using the best available EBM.
D
deleted87716
The problem with being too open-minded is that your brains might fall out.
Denigrating science-based medicine by implying that we never employ any sort of conservative therapy doesn't help you, either.
Further reading: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=12208#more-12208
Last edited by a moderator:
D
deleted87716
The popularity of an idea is not a reliable indicator of whether or not it's true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,640
- Reaction score
- 423
Seems like you have some issues dude. How do you feel about D.O.'s doing OMM? How do you feel about us getting taught some of the ortho by pods(foot only if I remeber correctly)?
I don't foresee how CAM therapy can totally be disregarded, and I think that the AAPA/NCCPA will monitor these courses closely to make sure that the educational standards of a PA are met overall and the cirriculum is worthless. Also IF they are inferior PA's than the PANCE/PANRE will eliminate them. So your points are moot.
PS-Also how do you feel about Carribbean med. grads as well?
I am not attacking you but it seems like you are attacking others and I wonder if you are someone who is against anything but the mainstream(which is not always a bad thing IMHO but disagree with you on this stance).
PS-If your wondering I am a PA-C/OMS.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 0
Totally anecdotal story to follow... The most talented physician I ever knew was a neurologist who incorporated TCM into his practice. He obtained his medical education at Duke, and went to China to learn TCM and acupuncture from genuine experts. He studied with them another 4 years after medical school and his neurology residency. He later got a PhD in botany. Half the staff thought he was crazy, but everyone agreed he was brilliant. Very talented, nice, down to earth guy. He is now the head of neurology in a very prestigious University system. If I needed a neurologist, I'd seek out his opinion, but if I needed neurosurgery, I don't think I'd opt for some acupuncture in chinatown instead, lol.
D
deleted87716
I think the point is missed here. Its not so much that the kids are taking a few CAM classes, its more that they are being taught traditional actual science and medicine classes by the CAM instructors. Im all for pinching pennies if possible but not at the expense of patients and in the long run thats whats going on. Im sure your OM professors for physio, patho, micro and cardio were not pods, ND's, and DC's. I have no problem with Caribbean schools or DO schools or PA schools for that matter. Just this one seem way too sketchy. This kind of thing would never fly in med school. And really, if all that matters is that people can pass a test then why have on-line PA schools been shot down over and over again? Its about practicing medicine; real, actual medicine with real living sick and injured patients that have expectations that they are being cared for by someone who can do more than just pass a test.
D
deleted6669
prove to me with a citation from their site that ND's are teaching anything besides cam courses. if you can I will send an email to their program director and bitch about it, I promise.
Its not advertised on their website. Its info from the information session they just had this past month. The person I know that wanted to apply there knows a few people in the class right now and I guess its a common complaint with all the students, so he asked about it during the info session and it was confirmed. So please do go ahead and call, write and complain; I sure am. All other issues aside, this is my main beef. Just seems like because the university already has these CAM programs, the new PA program is either lacking for staff or just pinching pennies by using existing CAM professors for science and medicine classes. Either way, its NOT COOL and if PA schools are supposed to taught in the "medical model" this is subpar and needs to stop! Again, this would never fly in med school. If this kind of thing is unregulated and OK with accreditation bodies I have just lost tons of respect for PA education.
D
deleted6669
if in fact they have cam practitioners teaching basic medical sciences, pharm, etc that is a problem.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
Thanks for the laugh, I needed it after a 30-patient long day.
While of course a ND teaching a PA or MD or DO science class is likely inappropriate, I do have to say that one of the very best MDs I know is both a MD and a ND. His goal was to give the very best treatment possible, and it's my opinion that he reaches that goal on a regular basis. Incidentally, has anyone here read that new article in the Journal of International Immunopharmacology on Curcumin and MS?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W7N-5100NHD-2&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2011&_alid=1732080198&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_zone=rslt_list_item&_cdi=6631&_sort=r&_st=13&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=132&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3b565482e32dd8a5cfa442b641cb2280&searchtype=a
Amazing stuff, truly awesome. And do some research into parsley and cancer. Tomatoes and cancer. Yes, that's right, not everything from Biomed companies supersedes Mother Earth.
D
deleted87716
The "appeal to nature" is another logical fallacy employed by alt med folks to demonize science-based medicine. "Natural" has nothing to do with efficacy or safety. Most of our drugs are derived from natural sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
http://www.webmd.com/news/20070316/most-new-drugs-tapped-from-nature
D
deleted87716
Exactly. The people who tend to complain about courses like that are those who need them the most.
However, we were talking about (S)CAM courses, not stuff like bioethics.
Further reading on that subject may be found here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=11983
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
The blah-blah doesn't change the benefits of turmeric, parsley, and tomatoes. I've known of the benefits from turmeric on Alzheimer's (make sure the supplements have piperine extract in it, most do now, as it's been found to increase bioavailability by up to 2000%) ever since writing a paper on new developments in Alzheimer's therapy in undergrad, and found the recent article I linked to in my post above after putting two and two together considering inflammation in MS (someone else obviously did as well). Don't lose sight of the ultimate goal, either way ...
D
deleted87716
That's not exactly hard science.
If any of that stuff showed real promise for the treatment of Alzheimer's or MS, you wouldn't have to scrounge around with Google trying to find out about it. It would become mainstream therapy.
There are no "natural cures THEY don't want you to know about."
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 0
I don't believe in "natural cures they don't want you to know about," but I do believe that some non big-pharma interventions are likely beneficial for some conditions, and I'm glad there are apparently bright people investigating them.
I have had a mad crush on Andrew Weil for 15+ years. He was preaching about the evils of trans-fatty acids 10 years before anyone else. I think he has a lot of good ideas. to my knowledge, he never tells people to avoid allopathic medicine, but he certainly believes in complimenting it with alternative interventions.
I have had a mad crush on Andrew Weil for 15+ years. He was preaching about the evils of trans-fatty acids 10 years before anyone else. I think he has a lot of good ideas. to my knowledge, he never tells people to avoid allopathic medicine, but he certainly believes in complimenting it with alternative interventions.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
ScienceDirect is 'scrounging'? We have the choice to either be a leader or a follower, not to mention complacent (or simply lazy). As for your beef with my undergrad, take it up with the University of California who gave me an A+ on that paper.
By the way, turmeric already IS "mainstream therapy" in parts of India with high rates of curry consumption ... and less than 1% incidence of Alzheimer's.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2009
- Messages
- 606
- Reaction score
- 0
Correlation? Pirates and global warming anybody?
D
deleted6669
duh, you have to motor faster to avoid the pirates, producing more green house emissions.
QED pirates cause global warming....
D
deleted87716
There are lots of other possibilities.
http://www.searo.who.int/en/Section1174/Section1199/Section1567/Section1823_8066.htm
D
deleted87716
He also has some really weird ideas.
http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=Andrew+Weil+
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
Very interesting. Now.
Potential therapeutic effects of curcumin, the anti-inflammatory agent, against neurodegenerative, cardiovascular, pulmonary, metabolic, autoimmune and neoplastic diseases
Neuroinflammation in Alzheimer's disease: different molecular targets and potential therapeutic agents including curcumin
Curcuminoids enhance memory in an amyloid-infused rat model of Alzheimer's disease
Bioconjugates of curcumin display improved protection against glutathione depletion mediated oxidative stress in a dopaminergic neuronal cell line: Implications for Parkinsons disease
Immunomodulatory and therapeutic activity of curcumin
Potential therapeutic effects of curcumin: Relationship to microtubule-associated proteins 2 in Aβ142 insult
Curcumin attenuates aluminium-induced functional neurotoxicity in rats
And there's plenty more, have fun ...
D
deleted87716
Again...none of those studies demonstrates therapeutic benefit in humans.
Someday, perhaps they will. Until then, however, any beneficial effects are theoretical and unproven. That's why they use the word "potential" so much.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
Gee, I wonder if proven dissolution of beta-amyloid plaques might actually have the "potential" to deliver any "beneficial effects" to humans. Hmmm, who can I call and ask? Because I really just can't seem to figure that one out on my own.
Further (and I'm tiring of this 'discussion'), you should probably read articles past their titles, before you start spouting the words "theoretical and unproven".
D
deleted87716
No problem here.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 1
Well that's good.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 8
There was a post on the PA boards by someone actually in the Bridgeport program that was complaining about that very thing. I'd try to search for it but the boards are down atm. It was an ND teaching pathophys IIRC.
Similar threads
