Navy Physicians: Length-of-Contract

[resilient1]

Greetings,

I wanted to know what the minimum lengths-of-contracts are for Navy physicians given my unique plan both with and without outstanding student loans.

I plan to go to medical school in Canada, then enter the Navy as a resident in Emergency Medicine with the plan of being an Undersea Medical Officer.

Thanks in advance!

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[i want out]

8 years is minimum contract.

Ratio of active to reserve time is up for negotiatin but 8 years is minimum.

 

[resilient1]

8 years is minimum contract.

Ratio of active to reserve time is up for negotiatin but 8 years is minimum.

Thanks! Another question, when the recruiters say USUHS has a commitment of 7 years, HPSP has a commitment of 4 years, and FAP has a commitment of all years of residency plus one more year, do they mean that this is only the commitment time for Active Duty and there will be Reserve Duty time beyond these years mentioned?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Are you a U.S. citizen? Are you planning to apply to the FAP program? That would seem to be the only program that would commission you before completing your residency. An alternative would be to apply after completing residency. You would not be eligible to enter under the HPSP program even if you were a U.S. citizen unless you were attending a medical school in the USA or Puerto Rico. Canada is out.

Assuming your citizenship is not at issue and you are physically qualified and not otherwise excluded form receiving a commission, entering the service with a commission might require your doing at least an internship and becoming licensed in a U.S. state or territory. Application to a military residency is possible, but Emergency Medicine is typically both popular and competitive, and you would very likely have to do at least two years' service as a general medical officer before having a realistic chance at being chosen for a spot in a military EM residency. You might be able to apply for a GMO undersea medicine assignment which requires further physical qualifications and a training course, do a tour as a GMO/UMO and then apply for EM residency during tour operational tour. Many junior medical officers do just that.your operational tour adds points to your application score and increases your chances at becoming selected. Expecting to be selected for residency on entrance to the service is unrealistic.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The 8 years is the minimum combined years of obligation. Some of those will necessarily be active duty years, 7 for USUHS (plus an internship, 1 year minimum), 3-4 years for HPSP, etc; those years are concurrent with the minimum 8 year obligation. So if you are commissioned, do a one year internship and then four years as a GMO on active duty then exit active duty to do a civilian residency, you still owe three years of inactive reserve duty, at a minimum. You could spend those in an active reserve status as an alternative, or you could remain on active duty in a military residency (or not if you wanted) and complete the 8 year obligation that way. The 8 years are continuous, not broken. Any extra obligations accrued, for example, by residency is repaid when you are eligible to repay, after completing the residency. If the eight year repayment term is completed as a resident, then the only remaining obligation is whatever is accrued obligation for the residency training.

 

[notdeadyet]

OP- you might also pick the brain of the current Navy folks to understand that going the UMO route, your odds are less than 50/50 of getting a dive job. Think sub, tenders, and clinics.

 

[resilient1]

Are you a U.S. citizen? Are you planning to apply to the FAP program? That would seem to be the only program that would commission you before completing your residency. An alternative would be to apply after completing residency. You would not be eligible to enter under the HPSP program even if you were a U.S. citizen unless you were attending a medical school in the USA or Puerto Rico. Canada is out.

Assuming your citizenship is not at issue and you are physically qualified and not otherwise excluded form receiving a commission, entering the service with a commission might require your doing at least an internship and becoming licensed in a U.S. state or territory. Application to a military residency is possible, but Emergency Medicine is typically both popular and competitive, and you would very likely have to do at least two years' service as a general medical officer before having a realistic chance at being chosen for a spot in a military EM residency. You might be able to apply for a GMO undersea medicine assignment which requires further physical qualifications and a training course, do a tour as a GMO/UMO and then apply for EM residency during tour operational tour. Many junior medical officers do just that.your operational tour adds points to your application score and increases your chances at becoming selected. Expecting to be selected for residency on entrance to the service is unrealistic.

The 8 years is the minimum combined years of obligation. Some of those will necessarily be active duty years, 7 for USUHS (plus an internship, 1 year minimum), 3-4 years for HPSP, etc; those years are concurrent with the minimum 8 year obligation. So if you are commissioned, do a one year internship and then four years as a GMO on active duty then exit active duty to do a civilian residency, you still owe three years of inactive reserve duty, at a minimum. You could spend those in an active reserve status as an alternative, or you could remain on active duty in a military residency (or not if you wanted) and complete the 8 year obligation that way. The 8 years are continuous, not broken. Any extra obligations accrued, for example, by residency is repaid when you are eligible to repay, after completing the residency. If the eight year repayment term is completed as a resident, then the only remaining obligation is whatever is accrued obligation for the residency training.

Thanks for the info! Yes I am a U.S. citizen and yes, I am looking at FAP. The option to apply after completing my residency also sounds interesting. I am looking at joining the military not necessarily for financial reasons (although it definitely would be nice to pay off student loans if I generate them) but mainly for the challenge and leadership experience.

 

[resilient1]

OP- you might also pick the brain of the current Navy folks to understand that going the UMO route, your odds are less than 50/50 of getting a dive job. Think sub, tenders, and clinics.

Thanks for the reality check! I want to go the UMO route to challenge myself in a unique way. If I do indeed join the Navy, my goal is to be embedded with a SEAL, Navy EOD, or Force Recon Marine team. Nevertheless, I keep my options open and am always learning more about it every day.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Thanks for the reality check! I want to go the UMO route to challenge myself in a unique way. If I do indeed join the Navy, my goal is to be embedded with a SEAL, Navy EOD, or Force Recon Marine team. Nevertheless, I keep my options open and am always learning more about it every day.

[bolds mine]

I am sure some UMOs get those duty assignments, but probably not as an embedded, kickin-in-doors team member. That is not what they would typically require of you for your expertise. You could travel to forward staging areas, as did a classmate of mine who I crossed paths with when I was in a forward operating base with my ASW squadron, but those billets are outnumbered by jobs on sub tenders seeing mainly topside crew sick call and doing dive physicals, monitoring all the usual preventitive med and Personnel Reliability Program stuff, and standing decompression chamber watches.

 

[resilient1]

[bolds mine]

I am sure some UMOs get those duty assignments, but probably not as an embedded, kickin-in-doors team member. That is not what they would typically require of you for your expertise. You could travel to forward staging areas, as did a classmate of mine who I crossed paths with when I was in a forward operating base with my ASW squadron, but those billets are outnumbered by jobs on sub tenders seeing mainly topside crew sick call and doing dive physicals, monitoring all the usual preventitive med and Personnel Reliability Program stuff, and standing decompression chamber watches.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Perrotfish]

Thanks! Another question, when the recruiters say USUHS has a commitment of 7 years, HPSP has a commitment of 4 years, and FAP has a commitment of all years of residency plus one more year, do they mean that this is only the commitment time for Active Duty and there will be Reserve Duty time beyond these years mentioned?

They mean those number of years of active time plus (8 - those number of years) reserve time. To be clear, when they say 'reserve time', they mean the innactive ready reserves. Its a 'reserve' where you do not drill, you are not paid, you do not advance in rank or toward retirement, and in fact your only responsibility is to let them know where you live and what phone number you can be reached at.

Before 2001 no one would even have mentioned this to you. The IRR was basically a doomsday clause: the idea was that if the Chinese landed 10 million troops on the west coast tomorrow morning the military would have a name and number for every recent active duty service member so they could get them into the fight while they drafted everyone else. It was a rare case of real, cost effective forward thinking on the military's part, and they even coupled it with real restraint: they never actually used it. Then George W. Bush, the (insert your own descriptor) that he was, decided that he could use the IRR like the regular, drilling reserves and call small numbers of them out of civilian life when he couldn't get enough Americans to sign up voluntarility and didn't want to anger the public with a draft.

Its not a common scenario. It was barely used when they used it. They're not using it any more. They have never called up a physician through IRR. Its not even clear that the military has any legal standing TO call up the IRR since IRR military members don't fall under the jurisdiction of miltary law, which is why 50% of people who are called up don't show up and none of them have been prosecuted. But its there. Its on your contract. And now there's a precedent. So its worth at least knowing about.

 

[resilient1]

They mean those number of years of active time plus (8 - those number of years) reserve time. To be clear, when they say 'reserve time', they mean the innactive ready reserves. Its a 'reserve' where you do not drill, you are not paid, you do not advance in rank or toward retirement, and in fact your only responsibility is to let them know where you live and what phone number you can be reached at.

Before 2001 no one would even have mentioned this to you. The IRR was basically a doomsday clause: the idea was that if the Chinese landed 10 million troops on the west coast tomorrow morning the military would have a name and number for every recent active duty service member so they could get them into the fight while they drafted everyone else. It was a rare case of real, cost effective forward thinking on the military's part, and they even coupled it with real restraint: they never actually used it. Then George W. Bush, the (insert your own descriptor) that he was, decided that he could use the IRR like the regular, drilling reserves and call small numbers of them out of civilian life when he couldn't get enough Americans to sign up voluntarility and didn't want to anger the public with a draft.

Its not a common scenario. It was barely used when they used it. They're not using it any more. They have never called up a physician through IRR. Its not even clear that the military has any legal standing TO call up the IRR since IRR military members don't fall under the jurisdiction of miltary law, which is why 50% of people who are called up don't show up and none of them have been prosecuted. But its there. Its on your contract. And now there's a precedent. So its worth at least knowing about.

Wow. Thank you for this information.

 

[MTGas2B]

They mean those number of years of active time plus (8 - those number of years) reserve time. To be clear, when they say 'reserve time', they mean the innactive ready reserves. Its a 'reserve' where you do not drill, you are not paid, you do not advance in rank or toward retirement, and in fact your only responsibility is to let them know where you live and what phone number you can be reached at.

Before 2001 no one would even have mentioned this to you. The IRR was basically a doomsday clause: the idea was that if the Chinese landed 10 million troops on the west coast tomorrow morning the military would have a name and number for every recent active duty service member so they could get them into the fight while they drafted everyone else. It was a rare case of real, cost effective forward thinking on the military's part, and they even coupled it with real restraint: they never actually used it. Then George W. Bush, the (insert your own descriptor) that he was, decided that he could use the IRR like the regular, drilling reserves and call small numbers of them out of civilian life when he couldn't get enough Americans to sign up voluntarility and didn't want to anger the public with a draft.

Its not a common scenario. It was barely used when they used it. They're not using it any more. They have never called up a physician through IRR. Its not even clear that the military has any legal standing TO call up the IRR since IRR military members don't fall under the jurisdiction of miltary law, which is why 50% of people who are called up don't show up and none of them have been prosecuted. But its there. Its on your contract. And now there's a precedent. So its worth at least knowing about.

There are really two havles to Navy IRR. Part 1 is the big pool of recently discharged people, the names on a list, just as described.

Part 2 is actually people to are still doing reserve stuff and earning points and years towards retirement. They don't get paid though. The scenerio where I have seen this is the selective reserve memeber with a couple years to go towards retirement. They can transfer to the IRR from the selective reserves and continue to earn points with NKO courses. As long as they get enough points each year those years in IRR are credited towards reserve retirement. There are even some options to drill, although I don't know if this option exists for Medical Corps. The potential for being called to active duty is just like guys finishing off their 8 years as names on a list

Also, officers can be promoted while on IRR. They are reviewed on the reserve board. I was selected for O-4 while on IRR. Technically while I was on NADDS after HPSP I was in the IRR. And the years move you along the pay scale and time in rank, even if you aren't earning points. I didn't really know anything about IRR at the time. In hind site, if I knew then what I knew now I would have looked into what I could have done to try and get enough points in my five years in NADDS to make those years count towards a reseve retirement, then after I complete my current active duty time I'd have more years on the books (active plus reserve) towards a reseve retirement, if I decide to stay in the reserves after I get out.

All this applies to Navy. I have no idea how it works with Army and Air Force

http://www.public.navy.mil/BUPERS-NPC/CAREER/RESERVEPERSONNELMGMT/IRR/Pages/GuidetotheIRR.aspx

 

[resilient1]

There are really two havles to Navy IRR. Part 1 is the big pool of recently discharged people, the names on a list, just as described.

Part 2 is actually people to are still doing reserve stuff and earning points and years towards retirement. They don't get paid though. The scenerio where I have seen this is the selective reserve memeber with a couple years to go towards retirement. They can transfer to the IRR from the selective reserves and continue to earn points with NKO courses. As long as they get enough points each year those years in IRR are credited towards reserve retirement. There are even some options to drill, although I don't know if this option exists for Medical Corps. The potential for being called to active duty is just like guys finishing off their 8 years as names on a list

Also, officers can be promoted while on IRR. They are reviewed on the reserve board. I was selected for O-4 while on IRR. Technically while I was on NADDS after HPSP I was in the IRR. And the years move you along the pay scale and time in rank, even if you aren't earning points. I didn't really know anything about IRR at the time. In hind site, if I knew then what I knew now I would have looked into what I could have done to try and get enough points in my five years in NADDS to make those years count towards a reseve retirement, then after I complete my current active duty time I'd have more years on the books (active plus reserve) towards a reseve retirement, if I decide to stay in the reserves after I get out.

All this applies to Navy. I have no idea how it works with Army and Air Force

http://www.public.navy.mil/BUPERS-NPC/CAREER/RESERVEPERSONNELMGMT/IRR/Pages/GuidetotheIRR.aspx

Thanks for the input! Just wondering, does anyone know how the Army and Air Force does its Length-of-Contracts?