ND, Naturopathy, NMDs...

[kate8822]

I whole-heartedly and respectfully understand many here do not believe in anything not relating to "True" Medical School, involving MCATS and a federally funded and accredited University/Institution of Learning.

However, Intergrative Medicine is growing, it's science is being proven every day, and Maryland just passed laws allowing NDs to practice in their state.

Perhaps there is a better student doctor website for NDs and the Natural paths alike? I understand many might feel I don't belong here or I am in the wrong part of teh Internetz. I did a bit of searching around and reading... (Hey, wasn't my bedtime 4 hours ago?)....

Anyways, just wanted any and all feedback and info about this website and what they offer as far as a category for ND. I still need a 4 year "Pre-med" degree to even apply to one of the 8 Naturopathic Medical Schools here in the U.S. And still, only 1 in 3 students are usually accepted on the same basis of GPA, Applications, Etc, Etc, Etc. So I'm just looking for support, one medically passionate student to another...

I guess my post topic is super broad. Just reaching out a tentacle to say hello, going to see what I reel in.

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[IslandStyle808]

It's like a tug of war here on SDN about naturopathic medicine. There is a large amount here that don't believe in it and there is a few that do. Here is an interesting read about the topic (concerns my home state and how they deal with naturopathic physicians).


Twenty day's in primary care practice, or "naturopathic residency"

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/twenty-days-in-primary-care-practice-or-naturopathic-residency/


Some do have the prescribing capacity that primary care physicians have in some states, but less in others. I used to be on the stance against naturopathic medicine a while back. However, now my stance is uncertain after a few responses from very knowledgable SDN members. I still have much to know about their abilities to serve as healers and so again I am taking the "uncertain" stance as of right now.

 

[IslandStyle808]

At this point SDN strong point is getting into either an MD or DO school. It won't be able to provide the knowledge to get into ND school. If you ask me this question, I will tell you to go to MD or DO school over ND school.

There will be sarcastic remarks made on this thread so be prepared. I don't want you to get a bad impression on SDN because a good chunk of people want to help others on here. Best of luck to you!

 

[kraskadva]

I'm one that doesn't believe in naturopathy per se, but it doesn't bother me as much as some. I have an aunt that's a ND, so I know a bit about the what goes into the training and practice, though probably not enough to answer questions for you about the application process. I would be surprised if you found anybody here that really understands that process in depth.
However, if you've got questions about the pre-med student stuff (how to study, etc.) we could probably scratch up a bunch of comments pretty quickly. We're all down with the undergrad science class stuff
Good luck!

 

[Being]

What do you call "alternative medicine" that works?

Medicine.

Show me da science/evidence and I will believe. I'm sure that (just as with modern medicine) some of it works and some of it is BS.

 

[kate8822]

Thank you guys for the kind words and the time you took to reply even if you don't agree/believe in the type of practice.
I am starting my journey for the undergrad stuff first and foremost. ND is simply the end result decision as of now... And I definitely don't want to sit here on my soapbox and toot a horn to argue for the sake of defense, it's not worth my time or yours. But to try to be short and sweet from where I am coming from:

-Some of it works, some of it is total BS, Bull-hockey, snake oil sales crap. I hate that part about it. Just as I'm sure there are parts about western medicine and the current health care system that many of you do not like.
-There are good doctors in all fields, specialties, and types of practices, including Natural Medicine.

I'm not looking for answers as to "How to get into ND school," but more so the "Pre-med studying stuff" as mentioned above. I was just curious and figured I'd toss that pole in the water, regardless of bites.

Thank you though. Really Thank you.

*EDIT* Gah. I do want to point out, my large passion is going to be INTEGRATING the two in my hoped future career. I want to BE that person helping to show "Da science". But I feel being an ND with a decent education VS. being an MD with a "natural" preference or background will be the better approach. There are plenty of good MD's that may not understand but don't disagree whole-heartedly with Naturopathy, but I don't think there are any ND's out there that can swim with you big fish.

 

[dctodo]

Thank you guys for the kind words and the time you took to reply even if you don't agree/believe in the type of practice.
I am starting my journey for the undergrad stuff first and foremost. ND is simply the end result decision as of now... And I definitely don't want to sit here on my soapbox and toot a horn to argue for the sake of defense, it's not worth my time or yours. But to try to be short and sweet from where I am coming from:

-Some of it works, some of it is total BS, Bull-hockey, snake oil sales crap. I hate that part about it. Just as I'm sure there are parts about western medicine and the current health care system that many of you do not like.
-There are good doctors in all fields, specialties, and types of practices, including Natural Medicine.

I'm not looking for answers as to "How to get into ND school," but more so the "Pre-med studying stuff" as mentioned above. I was just curious and figured I'd toss that pole in the water, regardless of bites.

Thank you though. Really Thank you.

*EDIT* Gah. I do want to point out, my large passion is going to be INTEGRATING the two in my hoped future career. I want to BE that person helping to show "Da science". But I feel being an ND with a decent education VS. being an MD with a "natural" preference or background will be the better approach. There are plenty of good MD's that may not understand but don't disagree whole-heartedly with Naturopathy, but I don't think there are any ND's out there that can swim with you big fish.

Do not forget to look into job availability/salary after graduation to see if it's worth going into debt for an ND degree. Maybe you could do something along with lines of PA/NP and a master's of nutrition degree.

 

[theseeker4]

Thank you guys for the kind words and the time you took to reply even if you don't agree/believe in the type of practice.
I am starting my journey for the undergrad stuff first and foremost. ND is simply the end result decision as of now... And I definitely don't want to sit here on my soapbox and toot a horn to argue for the sake of defense, it's not worth my time or yours. But to try to be short and sweet from where I am coming from:

-Some of it works, some of it is total BS, Bull-hockey, snake oil sales crap. I hate that part about it. Just as I'm sure there are parts about western medicine and the current health care system that many of you do not like.
-There are good doctors in all fields, specialties, and types of practices, including Natural Medicine.

I'm not looking for answers as to "How to get into ND school," but more so the "Pre-med studying stuff" as mentioned above. I was just curious and figured I'd toss that pole in the water, regardless of bites.

Thank you though. Really Thank you.

*EDIT* Gah. I do want to point out, my large passion is going to be INTEGRATING the two in my hoped future career. I want to BE that person helping to show "Da science". But I feel being an ND with a decent education VS. being an MD with a "natural" preference or background will be the better approach. There are plenty of good MD's that may not understand but don't disagree whole-heartedly with Naturopathy, but I don't think there are any ND's out there that can swim with you big fish.

For your last part, if you seriously want to be the person helping to demonstrate where the real science in naturopathy is, you would have more success as an MD or a PhD than as an ND. Simply put, you will have more people pay attention to what you are trying to demonstrate if you are doing your research from within the mainstream than you would from outside the mainstream.

ETA: Leaving DO out was unintentional, should read MD, DO or PhD.

 

[QofQuimica]

For your last part, if you seriously want to be the person helping to demonstrate where the real science in naturopathy is, you would have more success as an MD or a PhD than as an ND. Simply put, you will have more people pay attention to what you are trying to demonstrate if you are doing your research from within the mainstream than you would from outside the mainstream.

Agree.

OP, integrative medicine is all the rage in the conventional medicine world these days, and I have to roll my eyes whenever someone says they don't want to go to med school because they want to practice integrative medicine. (As if what I do on a daily basis does not take into account people's social situations, psychological issues, and spiritual beliefs; believe me, there have been plenty of times when I have WISHED I could simply reduce patients and their problems to just a single organ or something!) If you are serious about becoming an integrative physician, then I recommend you attend an MD or DO school. There's no accrediting body for ND degrees, and no universal standards for ND education. So if you're going to shell out that kind of cash and time to get a clinical degree, you might as well get a degree that meets the accepted standard for physicians. And lord help me, use all the natural remedies you want, but please don't be an anti-vaxxer. I diagnosed a patient with pertussis today. Sigh.

 

[kthxbai]

The way I see it, ND stands for "Not a Doctor." You can be anything and anyone you want with an MD/DO degrees, especially a healthcare professional emphasizing the integrative approach.

 

[IL Pre Med]

Oh, so you want to be a witch doctor?

 

[Doctor Bob]

 

[IslandStyle808]

^ Saw those comments coming from a mile away....

 

[AspiringERMD]

Agree.

OP, integrative medicine is all the rage in the conventional medicine world these days, and I have to roll my eyes whenever someone says they don't want to go to med school because they want to practice integrative medicine. (As if what I do on a daily basis does not take into account people's social situations, psychological issues, and spiritual beliefs; believe me, there have been plenty of times when I have WISHED I could simply reduce patients and their problems to just a single organ or something!) If you are serious about becoming an integrative physician, then I recommend you attend an MD or DO school. There's no accrediting body for ND degrees, and no universal standards for ND education. So if you're going to shell out that kind of cash and time to get a clinical degree, you might as well get a degree that meets the accepted standard for physicians. And lord help me, use all the natural remedies you want, but please don't be an anti-vaxxer. I diagnosed a patient with pertussis today. Sigh.

This is basically exactly what I was going to say.

OP, I admittedly have strong feelings on integrative medicine, but consider this... an MD/DO could conceivably incorporate treatments utilized by a naturopath. But the reverse is very, very frequently untrue.

It's fine if you like certain aspects of naturopathy, but I would emphatically suggest that you integrate those subsets into your practice under an accredited medical degree.

And whatever you choose, please never forget that evidence, peer-review, meta-analysis, and the scientific method are the best ways we as humans know of to determine what's true, what's false, what works, and what doesn't, no matter how much we occasionally want something else to be the case. As long as you have great respect for evidence, I think you can make a very positive difference.

 

[Rocketdog]

Here's what I see happening across the various disciplines: MD, DO, PA, NP, ND...basically boils down to how hard you are willing to work/your beliefs on treating patients. Even in today's modern thinking Physicians with Osteopathic medical degrees are sometimes regarded as "less than real Doctors"..even though they are e LICENSED Physicians.

If you are prepared to get perfect A's and do everything required to meet MD admission criteria then you can entertain this option.
If you received "less than perfect" grades/MCAT score but still did well, you can entertain DO options.
If you don't care about being supervised or being called Doctor, but want to practice medicine then PA/NP might be your thing.
If your medical treatment model includes alternative treatments, herbs, nutrition counseling, vitamins, homeopathy, then ND could be your calling.
If you would like to crack bones or look at eyes and HAVE to called 'Dr" optometry or chiropractic might be your thing.
If mental disorders are your interest, and you just are hell bent on the title, then psychology might be in your future.
If research is your cup of tea, then a PhD is in order. (This one is a LONG haul)
So it really depends on the personal views of the aspiring clinician. It has less to do with pleasing everyone ELSE and everything about YOUR career.

The War continues in MD/DO fight much less than the MD/DO/ND fight. I find it ironic and somewhat comical that the Osteopathic "world" were in the SAME trenches not long ago. I've also read somewhere there are thoughts of eliminating DO/MD titles and simply referring to licensed Doctors as Physicians.

With so many options on treating patients career wise, there is enough information to make a decision. Yes the ND profession will have the same fight the DOs did back in the day when they were referred to as "less than real Doctors"....... the end result of eventual equality will be many factors, but some of them include: Training becoming the same, licensing, residency and more importantly: universal standards. It's why we use the metric system. Cells are cells in the US or any other country in the world. Change comes with sacrifice.

Since MDs and DOs have "joined forces" if you wish...why doesn't someone come up with ONE universal medical school model that incorporates universally accepted medical standards. We have universal precautions in clinical settings. We could have the US Department of Medical Education that applies to all medical schools in the US, not an ASSOCIATION, but an actual Federal Government department that oversees medical education and licensing. One US license for all states. Do patients in New York bleed a different color in Arizona? Drug companies don't JUST deliver one kind of antibiotic to one state than the other.

OHHHH...WAIT....that's right, people in the US simply love to argue. Some aren't interested in ACTUALLY finding a workable solution to these things, raher, they are more interested in THEIR views being superior to another.

It USED to be about the patient. Blurring the lines even further, we can't even decide on what to call ourselves...."NO, I'M the Doctor"....."NO, I'm the provider"....."NO, I'm the medical clinician" ...the poor patient. After the patient leaves his/her "Doctors" office, they to to the pharmacy where the Pharmacist is wearing "Dr" on his/her name tag. The confusion continues.

Tonight I hope the Chef doesn't have a "Dr. of Culinary Arts" degree and decide what is better for me at my favorite restaurant. That's okay, I'm sure the "Dr" of sanitation will do the dishes.

 

[oldstock]

This is basically exactly what I was going to say.

OP, I admittedly have strong feelings on integrative medicine, but consider this... an MD/DO could conceivably incorporate treatments utilized by a naturopath. But the reverse is very, very frequently untrue.

It's fine if you like certain aspects of naturopathy, but I would emphatically suggest that you integrate those subsets into your practice under an accredited medical degree.

And whatever you choose, please never forget that evidence, peer-review, meta-analysis, and the scientific method are the best ways we as humans know of to determine what's true, what's false, what works, and what doesn't, no matter how much we occasionally want something else to be the case. As long as you have great respect for evidence, I think you can make a very positive difference.

why do people decide to go this ND route instead of the MD/DO ??

the real but simple answer : they want the easy way out (but want all the things associated with being a medical doctor), i.e. do not want to take the MCAT and go through a very competitive admission process. They are going to say whatever to defend their reasons for choosing this ND thing, but this is the truth and everyone knows it.

Personally, I'd rather go to the Caribbean for med school than going this ND. Can't believe we allow things like chiropractor and this ND thingy in the US in the 21st century (sigh)

 

[Rocketdog]

why do people decide to go this ND route instead of the MD/DO ??......probably the same reason people love to rack up credit cards then rely on some "credit repair" company to bail them out of having a 510 credit score for not paying their CC bills.

Bottom line: if you are willing to do the (hard) work and learn the hard sciences (and everything else required for admission) you CAN be a medical doctor. Everyone else gets the "privilege" of explaining themselves as "just as good"

Obviously this doesn't apply to people who CHOOSE other routes who were otherwise academically qualified. Those students COULD have also chosen to obtain a PhD and conduct research or whatever else they choose.

The simple truth is: The less academically qualified are more limited. SO...if you don't want to be limited be academically qualified.

 

[oldstock]

Here's what I see happening across the various disciplines: MD, DO, PA, NP, ND...basically boils down to how hard you are willing to work/your beliefs on treating patients. Even in today's modern thinking Physicians with Osteopathic medical degrees are sometimes regarded as "less than real Doctors"..even though they are e LICENSED Physicians.

If you are prepared to get perfect A's and do everything required to meet MD admission criteria then you can entertain this option.
If you received "less than perfect" grades/MCAT score but still did well, you can entertain DO options.
If you don't care about being supervised or being called Doctor, but want to practice medicine then PA/NP might be your thing.
If your medical treatment model includes alternative treatments, herbs, nutrition counseling, vitamins, homeopathy, then ND could be your calling.
If you would like to crack bones or look at eyes and HAVE to called 'Dr" optometry or chiropractic might be your thing.
If mental disorders are your interest, and you just are hell bent on the title, then psychology might be in your future.
If research is your cup of tea, then a PhD is in order. (This one is a LONG haul)
So it really depends on the personal views of the aspiring clinician. It has less to do with pleasing everyone ELSE and everything about YOUR career.

The War continues in MD/DO fight much less than the MD/DO/ND fight. I find it ironic and somewhat comical that the Osteopathic "world" were in the SAME trenches not long ago. I've also read somewhere there are thoughts of eliminating DO/MD titles and simply referring to licensed Doctors as Physicians.

With so many options on treating patients career wise, there is enough information to make a decision. Yes the ND profession will have the same fight the DOs did back in the day when they were referred to as "less than real Doctors"....... the end result of eventual equality will be many factors, but some of them include: Training becoming the same, licensing, residency and more importantly: universal standards. It's why we use the metric system. Cells are cells in the US or any other country in the world. Change comes with sacrifice.

Since MDs and DOs have "joined forces" if you wish...why doesn't someone come up with ONE universal medical school model that incorporates universally accepted medical standards. We have universal precautions in clinical settings. We could have the US Department of Medical Education that applies to all medical schools in the US, not an ASSOCIATION, but an actual Federal Government department that oversees medical education and licensing. One US license for all states. Do patients in New York bleed a different color in Arizona? Drug companies don't JUST deliver one kind of antibiotic to one state than the other.

OHHHH...WAIT....that's right, people in the US simply love to argue. Some aren't interested in ACTUALLY finding a workable solution to these things, raher, they are more interested in THEIR views being superior to another.

It USED to be about the patient. Blurring the lines even further, we can't even decide on what to call ourselves...."NO, I'M the Doctor"....."NO, I'm the provider"....."NO, I'm the medical clinician" ...the poor patient. After the patient leaves his/her "Doctors" office, they to to the pharmacy where the Pharmacist is wearing "Dr" on his/her name tag. The confusion continues.

Tonight I hope the Chef doesn't have a "Dr. of Culinary Arts" degree and decide what is better for me at my favorite restaurant. That's okay, I'm sure the "Dr" of sanitation will do the dishes.

you've mentioned and compared ND vs MD/DO with MD vs DO things. I am sorry to say you got that wrong buddy

why DO is looked down upon ??

the main reason is that Osteopathic Medicine is still touting their signature OMM/OMT, a medical practice that is without any support of scientific evidence. In that regard, Osteopathy medicine is, in fact, inferior to Allopathic medicine.

If you do not believe me, go to the Osteopathic forum here on SDN and ask the med students and DOs there to see what they are saying about OMM/OMT and MD vs DO. They all know OMM/OMT is a bunch of bull****. (Same thing with chiropractice and ND thing, they all know themselves that those things are just BS, but yet they want to be called "doctors").

DOs gradually become more recognized as equivalent to MDs not because they "won" the fight with MDs, but because DO physicians are, in real practice, giving up OMM/OMT though the AOA still wants to keep selling OMM/OMT as the main reason for their schools to exist. But everyone knows the real reason for any student to apply to DO schools, i.e. they can't get in MD schools with their stats, not b/c of wanting or believing in OMM/OMT. There is no other reason for DO schools to exist despite what they are telling you

"In modern medicine, any distinction between the M.D. and the D.O. professions has eroded steadily; diminishing numbers of D.O. graduates enter primary care fields,[9] fewer use OMM, and increasing numbers of osteopathic graduates choose to train in non-osteopathic residency programs.[10][11][12] Further, holistic patient care models are increasingly being taught at M.D. schools.

Discussions about the future of modern medicine frequently debate the utility of maintaining separate, distinct pathways for educating physicians in the United States.[12][13]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States

There should be only 1 type of medicine, that is scientific evidence-based medicine !!

 

[Rocketdog]

MD is a Physician
DO is a Physician

Case closed.

 

[oldstock]

MD is a Physician
DO is a Physician

Case closed.

ND is not a physician in your opinion ?? lol

if you were saying things that are all true, then I would have nothing to say about. (But google to read more about what the rest of the world views or think of DO or ND or Chiroprators (DC) vs MD. Hint: requirements for licensing to practice as a physician/medical doctor in a/any country in the world )

 

[Rocketdog]

This is what I know about the three:
MD = Physicians allowed to practice medicine in any specialty they choose after 4 years of med school and residency
DO = Physicians allowed to practice medicine in any specialty they choose after 4 years of med school and residency
ND= Physicians allowed to practice medicine using alternative, less invasive treatments after 4 years of medical school that is different MD from or DO schools.
I know they cannot become surgeons. I think they can specialize in SOME areas, not others.

I think NDs are Physicians, however they have a more limited scope of practice. An MD or DO can become a surgeon whereas an ND Physician cannot. The profession is state-specific as to writing prescriptions. They can perform limited surgeries, just not major procedures like open heart for instance. In Arizona ND Physicians have full prescription writing capabilities, however in California they can prescribe hormones but not other drugs.

So.....

MD and DO can become any kind of Doctor they wish with no restrictions: Surgeons, Neurologists, Plastic Surgeons, OBGYN, Pediatrician...etc
ND has more restrictions.

That's all I know.

 

[oldstock]

This is what I know about the three:
MD = Physicians allowed to practice medicine in any specialty they choose after 4 years of med school and residency
DO = Physicians allowed to practice medicine in any specialty they choose after 4 years of med school and residency
ND= Physicians allowed to practice medicine using alternative, less invasive treatments after 4 years of medical school that is different MD from or DO schools.
I know they cannot become surgeons. I think they can specialize in SOME areas, not others.

I think NDs are Physicians, however they have a more limited scope of practice. An MD or DO can become a surgeon whereas an ND Physician cannot. The profession is state-specific as to writing prescriptions. They can perform limited surgeries, just not major procedures like open heart for instance. In Arizona ND Physicians have full prescription writing capabilities, however in California they can prescribe hormones but not other drugs.

So.....

MD and DO can become any kind of Doctor they wish with no restrictions: Surgeons, Neurologists, Plastic Surgeons, OBGYN, Pediatrician...etc
ND has more restrictions.

That's all I know.

well, I also know that the US is one of a very few countries in the world that allows so many kinds of "quack doctors" such as ND, DC, (or even DO to practice OMM/OMT). Or allows many states to legalize and sell marihuana in the open to the public.

I bet when you are super sick (e.g. cancer or whatever God-forbids) , you or any ND, DC, or DO or any person that still has at least 1/2 of their brain want to go to see a ND or DC or be treated with OMM/OMT ???? lol

 

[jl lin]

well, I also know that the US is one of a very few countries in the world that allows so many kinds of "quack doctors" such as ND, DC, (or even DO to practice OMM/OMT). Or allows many states to legalize and sell marihuana in the open to the public.

I bet when you are super sick (e.g. cancer or whatever God-forbids) , you or any ND, DC, or DO or any person that still has at least 1/2 of their brain want to go to see a ND or DC or be treated with OMM/OMT ???? lol

Actually, there is a place for each of them. It's about knowing the scope of practice. Yes there is science in naturopathy and integrative medicine, mostly coming forth from Europe, since FDA approved studies are expensive and there is less profitability in studying natural agents--essentially food-stuffs--as medicine--although the insight into that is growing much in Western culture. No, you don't go to a licensed naturopath if you sustain trauma in a car accident--you may need to been seen in a trauma center by a trauma surgeon or a physician educated and trained in an area relevant to your needs at the time. Naturopathy is about wellness. When it adds to western advances in medicine and is truly integrative, it's promising and health-promoting. When it gets in the way of hard medical science, then it may become a problem. It's not an either/or thing necessarily. People need to educate themselves, with open minds, all the way around, and then use good sense. If I am suffering from an evolving MI, I am not going to make an appointment with a naturopath for heaven's sake. If I have come full course in remission from a chronic illness, such as SLE, and I want to become stronger and build up my immune system, while sharing the wellness program with my rheumatologists, I may well benefit from a wise, experienced naturopath that is up on many aspects of healthcare and wellness. Many of these folks were espousing the benefits Vitamin D and Omega 3 within reason way before many allopaths or osteopaths. Either/or thinking is death to balanced understanding.

 

[kate8822]

So sorry that I've been away. I promise I was not hiding. The semester started is all, and I've had a fun time with my new Chemistry Professor.
Rocketdog. THANK YOU THANK YOU and THANK YOU. I think you hit the nail on the head.

And that, ladies and gentleman, IS why I am choosing the ND route. Not because I am lazy. Not because I fear the MCAT. Not because I want a different approach.
I am applying to the toughest ND school in the country. 1 in 3 students are accepted. GPA is HUGE, as well as specific prereq's. I will still need the 4-year "premed" degree that you all have when you will be applying to Medical School. I may be off by a year perhaps with Clinicals, but that will also be because my clinicals will be during my 4 year medical school program.

And yes, this is all in my opinion. You don't have to like it, and I can't say I have to nor will I like your opinions (well all of them anyways.)
ND will be something I will be choosing to fight for in my career to ensure it becomes more widely accepted. Maryland just passed ND licensing this past year, and each state that current does NOT allow ND licensing has the potential to be changed. I believe ND (NOT JUST a "Naturopath") is something that is still quite in it's infancy when it comes to the current healthcare system.

Let's also get one thing straight, for I simply to have to stand and defend myself somewhat. I personally do not believe in:
-Anti-Vaccination BS. I believe in Medicine. Western Medicine also.
-Reiki and Reflexology and all that jazz is fun and nice, but I would never say it could cure Cancer or something more serious.
-Evidence-based Medicine is real. I want to HELP with that later in my career when being applied to CAMs.
-90% of our pharmaceuticals are or once were herb-derived. That means some "medicine man" or "quack" back in some long ago day decided to see if a plant would cause help or harm, some witch doctor in the jungle somewhere..... You catch my drift.

I could go on and on, but I'll cut that short for the fact that I still have to shower and head to work and class today.

What I did want to get across now that this thread has evolved, is that I as a "medical student" here in studentdoctor.net will be here to stay, because I'm in the trenches of "premed" along with all of you. Some of you may respect that, some may scoff. I don't care.

But really, thank you very much to several of you that took your time either way to reply to my thread in a thoughtful and respectful manner. I appreciate any and all that gave any input...

I believe the UK and Canada are miles ahead of us with this integrative approach. But I prefer to be here, in this kick ass country, helping where I can so that patients can feel like patients again. And just that : Helping Patients. I can't say there isn't a person here on this board that DOESN'T want to do that, or we wouldn't be here, right?

 

[Mad Jack]

Every time I see a thread about this sort of stuff, all I can do is think about this video:

 

[IL Pre Med]

1 in 3 students are accepted.

Lol I wish 1 in 3 students were accepted at even one school I applied to, it's more like 4 in 100 for us MDers

 

[Being]

Every time I see a thread about this sort of stuff, all I can do is think about this video:

Oh my God... How have I not seen this before!? Thank you for posting!

 

[oldstock]

Lol I wish 1 in 3 students were accepted at even one school I applied to, it's more like 4 in 100 for us MDers

lol

why would people decide to "fight" to practice as a ND (and in doing so, severely restrict/limit themselves) vs. MD (which should give you a unlimited medical practice license if you so choose to practice "natural"/"alternative"medicine) all the while believing in vaccine and evidence-based (scientific/peer reviewed ??) medicine ?? What could a ND do but a MD could not do ??

DUH.... lol

 

[type12]

Every time I see a thread about this sort of stuff, all I can do is think about this video:

Wow, how do you find this stuff? That guy's a natural.

 

[IL Pre Med]

90% of our pharmaceuticals are or once were herb-derived. That means some "medicine man" or "quack" back in some long ago day decided to see if a plant would cause help or harm, some witch doctor in the jungle somewhere..... You catch my drift.

This is false, source: two years of a PharmD education. Vitamins and supplements that are Rx and super concentrated (ergocaliferol, azo cranberry, etc.) are derived from food/plant sources, but most prescriptions are synthetic or bacterial/fungal derivatives. Colchicine comes to mind thats plant based, penicillins and other antibiotics fall into the latter category along with hormonal supplements, parkinsons meds (sinemet, stalevo), HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors (lipitor), diuretics and other blood pressure meds, the list goes on and on. Try again OP.

 

[oldstock]

This is false, source: two years of a PharmD education. Vitamins and supplements that are Rx and super concentrated (ergocaliferol, azo cranberry, etc.) are derived from food/plant sources, but most prescriptions are synthetic or bacterial/fungal derivatives. Colchicine comes to mind thats plant based, penicillins and other antibiotics fall into the latter category along with hormonal supplements, parkinsons meds (sinemet, stalevo), HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors (lipitor), diuretics and other blood pressure meds, the list goes on and on. Try again OP.

bet the OP did not know that... well said !!

but the OP is applying to the toughest ND school in the country.... imagine how it is at the "easiest" ND school..... lol

So sorry that I've been away. I promise I was not hiding. The semester started is all, and I've had a fun time with my new Chemistry Professor.
Rocketdog. THANK YOU THANK YOU and THANK YOU. I think you hit the nail on the head.

And that, ladies and gentleman, IS why I am choosing the ND route. Not because I am lazy. Not because I fear the MCAT. Not because I want a different approach.
I am applying to the toughest ND school in the country. 1 in 3 students are accepted. GPA is HUGE, as well as specific prereq's. I will still need the 4-year "premed" degree that you all have when you will be applying to Medical School. I may be off by a year perhaps with Clinicals, but that will also be because my clinicals will be during my 4 year medical school program.

And yes, this is all in my opinion. You don't have to like it, and I can't say I have to nor will I like your opinions (well all of them anyways.)
ND will be something I will be choosing to fight for in my career to ensure it becomes more widely accepted. Maryland just passed ND licensing this past year, and each state that current does NOT allow ND licensing has the potential to be changed. I believe ND (NOT JUST a "Naturopath") is something that is still quite in it's infancy when it comes to the current healthcare system.

Let's also get one thing straight, for I simply to have to stand and defend myself somewhat. I personally do not believe in:
-Anti-Vaccination BS. I believe in Medicine. Western Medicine also.
-Reiki and Reflexology and all that jazz is fun and nice, but I would never say it could cure Cancer or something more serious.
-Evidence-based Medicine is real. I want to HELP with that later in my career when being applied to CAMs.
-90% of our pharmaceuticals are or once were herb-derived. That means some "medicine man" or "quack" back in some long ago day decided to see if a plant would cause help or harm, some witch doctor in the jungle somewhere..... You catch my drift.

I could go on and on, but I'll cut that short for the fact that I still have to shower and head to work and class today.

What I did want to get across now that this thread has evolved, is that I as a "medical student" here in studentdoctor.net will be here to stay, because I'm in the trenches of "premed" along with all of you. Some of you may respect that, some may scoff. I don't care.

But really, thank you very much to several of you that took your time either way to reply to my thread in a thoughtful and respectful manner. I appreciate any and all that gave any input...

I believe the UK and Canada are miles ahead of us with this integrative approach. But I prefer to be here, in this kick ass country, helping where I can so that patients can feel like patients again. And just that : Helping Patients. I can't say there isn't a person here on this board that DOESN'T want to do that, or we wouldn't be here, right?

 

[AspiringERMD]

Every time I see a thread about this sort of stuff, all I can do is think about this video:

I actually have the entire poem memorized verbatim. Love Tim Michin!

 

[Mad Jack]

I actually have the entire poem memorized verbatim. Love Tim Michin!

He's probably has more wit than any man the world has yet seen. He's a comedic genius.

 

[AspiringERMD]

He's probably has more wit than any man the world has yet seen. He's a comedic genius.

Agreed. The first time I ever heard of him was actually when I was seeing him live. I loved him right then and there!

 

[DesertPT]

I am applying to the toughest ND school in the country. 1 in 3 students are accepted.

Stumbled on this thread lurking outside of my home forum. While I don't believe ND's are a necessary part of the healthcare system, I respect your decision to go that route and wish you the best.

I will say though, be careful about trying to claim you are getting into a tough school if there is a 33% acceptance rate. I am going to PT school, which I'm sure most pre-meds on this forum consider pretty unimpressive compared to med school, and the school I want to go (which is about the 85th percentile in rankings, for what that's worth) has about a 6-7% acceptance rate. The most competitive PT schools in the country are <5%, comparable to plenty of MD programs. So needless to say, you are not selling anybody on the validity of your profession by going on about a 33% acceptance rate.

I have to agree with the posters who have mentioned the cost to employment potential ratio. I would seriously consider how much debt an ND program is going to put you in and what your chances of solid, consistent employment with a decent salary are after school. I know many chiros struggle to pay the bills some months if they don't market hard enough or have not established a good client base. I could see that happening to an ND too, as it's not like you can just apply for a job at a hospital or a practice somewhere. Do yourself a big favor and consider if spending a large portion of your time being a salesman and a pseudo-businessman is something that interests you.

What are the employment and salary prospects of an ND like anyway? I've never seen any numbers.

 

[QofQuimica]

He's probably has more wit than any man the world has yet seen. He's a comedic genius.

That was definitely genius.

For the record, I've come up with my own alternative physical exam technique, which I have taken to calling anti-reiki. Not because it is against reiki, but because it is the inverse of reiki. In a nutshell, I have discovered that I am able to reliably produce abdominal pain in certain patients by adjusting their energy fields without ever actually touching them. These are usually people who have received 20 different opiate prescriptions from 20 different doctors in the past six months, all filled at 20 different drugstores around the area. Often, they have also lived at half a dozen different addresses and have had half a dozen negative abdominal CT scans during that same time period. The funny thing is, most of my colleagues don't even know what reiki is. But once I explain the concept, and then note that my having anti-reiki'ed the patient caused increased pain, everyone instantly understands what I'm talking about.

I'd write a paper and publish on this discovery of mine, except someone might actually believe it's real.

 

[jl lin]

I am open to integrative medicine and to sound wellness practices. At the same time, OP, I wonder if obtaining a PhD in nutrition wouldn't open up more doors for you.

 

[DesertPT]

Every time I see a thread about this sort of stuff, all I can do is think about this video:

Best summation of homeopathy ever written: "Take physics and bin it! Water has memory, and whilst it's memory for a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite, it somehow forgets all the poo its had in it!"

Instant classic...