need advice in how to change biggest mistake of life

[medmistake]

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I have tried to adjust to military life and med school but all i find is an unbearable sadness.

My commitment if I stay and pass (though that's looking doubtful) requires a long time of active service, the end of which is after both my parents and a number of my relatives will likely be deceased. I can't do that - they are all I have.

has anyone heard of military med students (hpsp and usuhs as I don't want to say which I am) somehow switching their active duty commitment to reserve duty in exchange for a longer period of reserve duty?

I knew there is repayment if i leave med school - does anyone know if that service repayment can be deferred while I pursue nursing at a civilian institution?

I know this may sound like a copout but i have put months and months and every effort into trying and this arrangement is doing me or the military any good.

thank you.

 

[militarymd]

You signed a contract. You need to honor it. It is that simple.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I have tried to adjust to military life and med school but all i find is an unbearable sadness.

I believe you. Sometimes the only cure for sadness is to get through it. As an ROTC and USUHS grad, it took me 15 years to get through it.

My commitment if I stay and pass (though that's looking doubtful) requires a long time of active service, the end of which is after both my parents and a number of my relatives will likely be deceased. I can't do that - they are all I have.

Frankly, you should have thought of this before raising your right hand.

has anyone heard of military med students (hpsp and usuhs as I don't want to say which I am) somehow switching their active duty commitment to reserve duty in exchange for a longer period of reserve duty?

Not gonna happen. Never heard of it. They need bodies desperately on active duty. If you went into the reserves, you'd be called up and deployed downrange on your first day of reserve service, so what's the diff? You think the reserves is still about 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year? Think again. The active components of all of the services are stretched to the breaking point. The Reserves and National Guard are being tasked just as much, if not more, than the active components. This is reason number 45 why I resigned my commission as a LtCol and did *not* join the reserves to make up the 5 more years I needed before retirement...else I'd be typing this missive to you from Balad right now.

I knew there is repayment if i leave med school - does anyone know if that service repayment can be deferred while I pursue nursing at a civilian institution?

They will not make it easy for you, under any circumstances.

I know this may sound like a copout but i have put months and months and every effort into trying and this arrangement is doing me or the military any good.

Read my website. Read my posts here. I am not a recruiter...I am, if anything, the anti-recruiter. But it is a far different situation if one is a college student looking into USU/HSPS, vs. one who has raised his/her right hand, signed on the dotted line, and committed oneself to a military ADSC. The most honorable thing is for you to suck it up, do your time in as efficient a manner as possible (GMO/Flight Surgery > residency, which would only prolong your pain), and GTFO when you have fulfilled the obligation you signed on for.

Four years for HPSP will pass by in no time. Seven years for USU will cause more rectal bleeding, but should still be doable. IF you went to a service academy or ROTC + USU + military residency, well...I am living proof that even this decade and a half of commitment can be survived with honor.

"Aus der Kriegsschule des Lebens. Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker." --Friedrich Nietzsche, Götzen-Dämmerung

"From the War School of Life: What does not kill me, makes me stronger."

--
R

 

[Apollyon]

"Aus der Kriegsschule des Lebens. Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker." --Friedrich Nietzsche, Götzen-Dämmerung

"From the War School of Life: What does not kill me, makes me stronger."

--
R

"Was mich nicht stärker bildet, tötet mich."

"What does not make me stronger, kills me."

 

[IgD]

Hang in there and don't give up. Medical school and the military is a big adjustment. Eventually you'll hit your stride. (Even when you leave after your commitment ends!) Try to capitalize on the few perks the military has to offer. Tell us more about your situation and we will try to help.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Hang in there and don't give up. Medical school and the military is a big adjustment. Eventually you'll hit your stride. (Even when you leave after your commitment ends!) Try to capitalize on the few perks the military has to offer. Tell us more about your situation and we will try to help.

(Ahem)

Attention SDN Denizens...

A Public Service Announcement:

Hell has frozen over.

Flying pigs have been spotted buzzing the Pentagon in formation.

I agree with IgD's post.

That is the end of this Public Service Announcement.

You many now rehinge your jaw into its socket, and carry on with the remainder of your business.

--
R

 

[DiveMD]

In a few words: Pay back and get out...

 

[7by11thenout]

There is a thing called "palace chase" where you convert active time to more reserve time. THey are doing it right now for everyone EXCEPT DOCTORS>>> a few of my friends have tried.


Also, you wouldnt want that anyway becasue you will just be called to active duty anyway to deploy and backfill as we invade IRAN and Korea


If you are still a student you can still quit. I had a few med school classmates at USUHS quit even later in training, they spent a year doing admin stuff at the school then were released. You can re apply to another med school. But you have to explain why you quit another school which can make getting accepted difficult

 

[DD214_DOC]

There is a thing called "palace chase" where you convert active time to more reserve time. THey are doing it right now for everyone EXCEPT DOCTORS>>> a few of my friends have tried.


Also, you wouldnt want that anyway becasue you will just be called to active duty anyway to deploy and backfill as we invade IRAN and Korea


If you are still a student you can still quit. I had a few med school classmates at USUHS quit even later in training, they spent a year doing admin stuff at the school then were released. You can re apply to another med school. But you have to explain why you quit another school which can make getting accepted difficult

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP doesn't want to finish med school period. I don't think he's trying to drop out to get out of his military commitment and reapply to finish without one -- he doesnt' want to do med school but feels stuck in it because he accepted HPSP.

I don't really think there's a way out.

 

[dpill]

I have tried to adjust to military life and med school but all i find is an unbearable sadness.

My commitment if I stay and pass (though that's looking doubtful) requires a long time of active service, the end of which is after both my parents and a number of my relatives will likely be deceased. I can't do that - they are all I have.

has anyone heard of military med students (hpsp and usuhs as I don't want to say which I am) somehow switching their active duty commitment to reserve duty in exchange for a longer period of reserve duty?

I knew there is repayment if i leave med school - does anyone know if that service repayment can be deferred while I pursue nursing at a civilian institution?

I know this may sound like a copout but i have put months and months and every effort into trying and this arrangement is doing me or the military any good.

thank you.

The military can't force you to finish medical school (if you are seriously thinking about quitting). You are right, you will likely have to pay back what they have spent on you (plus interest, whatever that entails) if you quit or get kicked out. I doubt they will defer what you owe for med school to later join the service as a nurse. Take a close look at your contract- not sure how the finances work if you are at USHUS (if you have to pay money back). Good luck!

 

[7by11thenout]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP doesn't want to finish med school period. I don't think he's trying to drop out to get out of his military commitment and reapply to finish without one -- he doesnt' want to do med school but feels stuck in it because he accepted HPSP.

I don't really think there's a way out.

I had a classmate quit med school during 3rd year at USUHS. If it is that you dont want to do medicine you can quit.... THe military will keep you in some capacity to "get their money out of you" for some time. My classmate hung around the school for 1 year doing admin clerical work for the school then left to the civilian world.

Quitting med school is easier than abandoning your military committment after you finish med school.


OP- Get a lawyer and discuss this with them. IT can be done.

 

[former military]

if you drop out of medicine.. the military can own you for a period of time in some para medical health field....

Most all of us had points in both med school and residency where you don't think you can make it through to the end... while academics are easy for some and most struggle to different extents and different times... the grind of day after day is felt by all.... you can get through it...

many students and doctors alike are clinically depressed and those who aren't likely have their asses dragging at different points. If you have invested enough to get to medical school you owe it to yourself to speak with someone with a little insight into these issues... for example... a family practitioner, psychiatrist, psychologist or your med school dean. These people can put you on a medication, set you up for counseling, or just give you a reality check...and pep talk...

most students have just been in school... never worked a real- rest of my life day after day job... those people are grinding too.... the nurses and receptionists, accountants, and bankers all get down, feel the pressure, etc. So... remember, even if you drop out you may just delay or switch problems.

don't underestimate the ability of professionals to help put your problems in perspective and point you in the right direction... end of sensitivity statement
peace

 

[Croooz]

From what I've seen, those who quit medical school (HPSP) owe the military nothing. Not sure what's in writing but 4 people I know who quit medical school in the last 5 years have walked away without any debt. These were Navy, so it might be different. As well, with the changing of the guard there might be a different policy. So don't take my observations as anything more. Basically don't base your future on this post. Check your contract and find a lawyer.

 

[dpill]

Again, we digress 🙄 Anyone have more information/ advice for the OP?

 

[Homunculus]

Again, we digress 🙄 Anyone have more information/ advice for the OP?

noncontributory posts zapped.

--your friendly neighborhood cleaning caveman

 

[militarymd]

noncontributory posts zapped.

--your friendly neighborhood cleaning caveman

Like I've said before...you ARE pro-military medicine.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

noncontributory posts zapped.

--your friendly neighborhood cleaning caveman

Um, exsqueeze me?

I missed the noncontributory posts.

Norman, please coordinate.

Thanks.

--
R

 

[Homunculus]

Like I've said before...you ARE pro-military medicine.

😛

here's the cliff's notes for those who didn't see them

haujun: corpse, you are a bitter old fart like the rest of them

galo: go back to your hole you ignoramous

so i deleted one pro, one con. therefore i remain unbiased. and no, they did not contribute squat to the thread 😛

--your friendly neighborhood deleting caveman

 

[MedicalCorpse]

😛

here's the cliff's notes for those who didn't see them

haujun: corpse, you are a bitter old fart like the rest of them

galo: go back to your hole you ignoramous

so i deleted one pro, one con. therefore i remain unbiased. and no, they did not contribute squat to the thread 😛

--your friendly neighborhood deleting caveman

Very well, sir.

I bow to your equanimity.

--
R

 

[almostfamous]

From what I've seen, those who quit medical school (HPSP) owe the military nothing. Not sure what's in writing but 4 people I know who quit medical school in the last 5 years have walked away without any debt. These were Navy, so it might be different. As well, with the changing of the guard there might be a different policy. So don't take my observations as anything more. Basically don't base your future on this post. Check your contract and find a lawyer.

What about a medical condition? Finish medical school but not be qualified for Active Duty... Anyone seen that?

 

[militarymd]

😛

here's the cliff's notes for those who didn't see them

haujun: corpse, you are a bitter old fart like the rest of them

galo: go back to your hole you ignoramous

so i deleted one pro, one con. therefore i remain unbiased. and no, they did not contribute squat to the thread 😛

--your friendly neighborhood deleting caveman

I stand corrected.

 

[Croooz]

What about a medical condition? Finish medical school but not be qualified for Active Duty... Anyone seen that?

I haven't. I called my buddy who works with the Navy's HPSP and he's never seen it. You get a physical before and you are disqualified before the military ever spends a dollar. Now, I'm sure it's possible however very unlikely....unless you develop some disqualifying condition during med school....not sure how that could happen. 🙄

In the end, it's all scheming and not being a man/woman of your word. You signed on the dotted line. There isn't a lemon law clause so you deal with the cards you dealt yourself. I know recruiters lie and HPSP students paint a pretty picture but in the end you made a choice and now have to reap the whirlwind.

It ain't that bad....because now you don't have a choice. IMO HPSP, without prior service, is a horrible choice to make but once you make, then it's a done deal. Man up and do your best.

 

[7by11thenout]

What about a medical condition? Finish medical school but not be qualified for Active Duty... Anyone seen that?

Saw a classmate finish medical school and get Medical boarded either in residency year 1 or 2 for bipolar disorder - BUT it was REAL bipolar disorder - not faking it - that person really flipped... You can get medically disqualified however it will carry credentialling problems with it because what you are saying is

" Dr X is not qualified to do his/her job in the military" which translates to:

DR x is not qualified to be a doctor in the military so why should they be qualified to be a doctor anywhere else?"

 

[NavyFP]

What about a medical condition? Finish medical school but not be qualified for Active Duty... Anyone seen that?

If you can practice in the real world, you can practice in the military.

 

[dpill]

If you can practice in the real world, you can practice in the military.

A Navy HPSP guy at my school was kicked out of the program last year after he reported he had asthma. He didn't want to leave the program. The rules change after you go on active duty (anything is waiverable), but I think "it depends" is still the general rule while you are in training.

 

[Rydney]

You signed a contract. You need to honor it. It is that simple.

I am neither pro nor anti military. I have my opinions, some see military service and being a doctor in the military as a postive, and some of my opinions see it as a negative. I have posted all of two or three times on this site, so for those who don't me, I am here to get information about whether military medicine is for me or not. Now, all that said, I wanted to throw my two cents in here. For the life of my neutral, hopefully open, unbiased mind, I cannot understand the hard line of "honoring" a contract that was signed with an entity that everyone, even the pro-military types, admit has, does, and will continue to lie to recruits. "Honor" is a two way street, much like love in my opinion, and cannot exist as a one way street. If more people balked at the lack of "honor" shown them by the military, maybe the plethora of problems spoken about on this site would start going away, as the military would be forced to be "honorable" or cease to exist.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

For the life of my neutral, hopefully open, unbiased mind, I cannot understand the hard line of "honoring" a contract that was signed with an entity that everyone, even the pro-military types, admit has, does, and will continue to lie to recruits. "Honor" is a two way street, much like love in my opinion, and cannot exist as a one way street. If more people balked at the lack of "honor" shown them by the military, maybe the plethora of problems spoken about on this site would start going away, as the military would be forced to be "honorable" or cease to exist.

Grasshopper:

You have learned.

There is nothing more I can teach you.

May you find what you seek.

--
R

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Grasshopper:

You have learned.

There is nothing more I can teach you.

May you find what you seek.

--
R

This is the issue of full and fair disclosure, and indirectly, of bad faith. Do the military services, by the manner of their recruiting and the advertising they sponsor deliberately misrepresent the opportunities and quality of the employment they secure by the contracts for medical student education they offer? I think the answer is yes. The military does not in my opinion fully disclose the nature and the professional limitations of the employment they offer as a requirement of fulfillment of the educational contracts they give.

 

[Croooz]

I am neither pro nor anti military. I have my opinions, some see military service and being a doctor in the military as a postive, and some of my opinions see it as a negative. I have posted all of two or three times on this site, so for those who don't me, I am here to get information about whether military medicine is for me or not. Now, all that said, I wanted to throw my two cents in here. For the life of my neutral, hopefully open, unbiased mind, I cannot understand the hard line of "honoring" a contract that was signed with an entity that everyone, even the pro-military types, admit has, does, and will continue to lie to recruits. "Honor" is a two way street, much like love in my opinion, and cannot exist as a one way street. If more people balked at the lack of "honor" shown them by the military, maybe the plethora of problems spoken about on this site would start going away, as the military would be forced to be "honorable" or cease to exist.

Catch 22: Only those who join can balk but then it's too late because you signed on. Unless you are able to get all your conversations and voicemails recorded and keep any other communications you are out of luck. Which 22 year old is thinking about keeping all the "negotiation" conversations with their recruiter.

If you begin like this chances are you aren't going to join. If you begin like this and do join then you are in for an uphill battle. Perhaps if you and then others went ahead and did all these recordings and then balked then there might be a chance of change...until then remember it's honor, courage, and commitment.....at least on paper.

 

[NavyDMO]

Do your time and get out! If you are HPSP....I have heard of possibly getting out but I am not sure about that. Just be smart, example....a DMO or FS class will keep you in the US an extra year if you stash. So ask a ton of questions and never accept the first answer.

 

[Rydney]

Catch 22: Only those who join can balk but then it's too late because you signed on. Unless you are able to get all your conversations and voicemails recorded and keep any other communications you are out of luck. Which 22 year old is thinking about keeping all the "negotiation" conversations with their recruiter.

If you begin like this chances are you aren't going to join. If you begin like this and do join then you are in for an uphill battle. Perhaps if you and then others went ahead and did all these recordings and then balked then there might be a chance of change...until then remember it's honor, courage, and commitment.....at least on paper.

I can only imagine how funny anyone in the military would find it if someone presented a recording of a recruiter, or any other military official, and used it as a justification to be treated differently than anyone else, or used it as a legal recourse to quit the military. I wasn't speaking from a legal reference when I spoke of "balking." I was refering to the culture of deceit that appears (I do not have first hand information) to pervade the military. All the laws in the world can't change culture, even when the laws do not reflect the culture, which I believe in this case they do. Finally, for me it will not be a matter of "until then" or "on paper" when it comes to h,c, & c. I am in the throws of deciding if serving in the military is honorable enough in and of itself to me as an individual to overcome the dishonor of the military system. A decision that has to be made going in, on a personal level, but I have no ill feelings toward someone who makes a decision to join, and then realizes the system is too dishonorable to stay in.

 

[Croooz]

Rydney,
I think you'll be disappointed if honor is what you're looking for. There are alot of honorable men and women in uniform. Unfortunately there is a system set up from the jump to reward the "whatever it takes" group. Case in point, during Navy bootcamp we are inspected, barracks and personnel. So the company (~80) guys would use 2 crappers, 2 urinals, and 2 showers. The others were cleaned to perfection and then wrapped in plastic garbage bags and the bags only removed during inspections. Those most "skilled" in folding clothes were the primary ones to do the folding. Everyone who had their own "specialty" did that and nothing else. None of this was necessarily against the rules but if asked we were to say that we had free use of the barrack facilities and each person did the same as everyone else...no better, no worse.

Lesson learned:
Do whatever it takes without breaking the law. If you bend a rule but nobody's hurt then you're okay. Cheat but don't get caught.

Now with the Marines this attitude came in handy, at least in garrison. So in order to get things done you have to bend the rules. Grunts improvise, adapt, and overcome and if you want to get anything accomplished then so must you.

My point is honor is a tricky thing. What will be your standard of honor? Which rules will you uphold as the honorable ones? What is more honorable; to stick to the rules, which some administrator made up which makes it impossible for you to get your Marine treated now before he goes out to the field, or to get your Marine treated? Those with no concept of honor, courage, or commitment are the idiots who makeup ******ed rules and procedures. You can work within the system to bend it on its back or let the system bend you backwards.

Not sure if I'm making much sense but I caution you about joining if honor is what you're after. I can say that you will find alot more honor in the military than outside the military but the dishonor you find in the military will floor you.

Don't base your decision on me. I think you'll be fine but forewarned is forearmed and all that.