Need advice on academic misconduct

[Dumbpremed]

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I know this is dumb but here goes. During my junior year, we had a group project for my spanish final. We were working on the outline and my partner copied something from the internet and used it. To be fair, he didn't know the outline was graded and he thought it was to just give the teacher an idea of what information we are going to use. I actually thought the same thing too so I didn't blame him too much for it. However, our teacher reported us and I don't blame him for it. We had to talk to the student misconduct guy, I forgot his official title. In the meeting, he told me that this matter will not go on the transcript. The only thing that they did was kept the outline and say it would be destroyed after I graduated. I actually talked the office couple days ago and they said that my academic misconduct is going to be expunged. My question is, will I have to answer this on the application and how it would affect me? Thanks for helping guys.

 

[deleted492904]

Considering that the record is expunged, school won't know about it right? I would say that you don't have to disclose it. Isn't that the case with misdemeanor and stuff? I'm not really sure on this, hope others can help you. Best of luck.

 

[coffeesnob]

I know this is dumb but here goes. During my junior year, we had a group project for my spanish final. We were working on the outline and my partner copied something from the internet and used it. To be fair, he didn't know the outline was graded and he thought it was to just give the teacher an idea of what information we are going to use. I actually thought the same thing too so I didn't blame him too much for it. However, our teacher reported us and I don't blame him for it. We had to talk to the student misconduct guy, I forgot his official title. In the meeting, he told me that this matter will not go on the transcript. The only thing that they did was kept the outline and say it would be destroyed after I graduated. I actually talked the office couple days ago and they said that my academic misconduct is going to be expunged. My question is, will I have to answer this on the application and how it would affect me? Thanks for helping guys.

From AMCAS, verbatim with personal emphasis (boldfaced):

Institutional Action

Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the Medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials.

You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record.

Applicants who become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application must inform their designated medical schools that an action has occurred.

If you answer Yes, you may use the provided space beneath the question to explain; this space is 1325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length. You will receive an error message if you exceed the allotted space.

Failure to provide accurate information in answering this question or, if applicable, in completing the form provided by the school, will result in an investigation.

 

[deleted492904]

From AMCAS, verbatim with personal emphasis (boldfaced):

If he chooses to not disclose it, would med schools even know?

 

[coffeesnob]

If he chooses to not disclose it, would med schools even know?

I think you know the answer already. It's a question of personal integrity. It is a matter of your personal conscience.

 

[deleted492904]

I think you know the answer already. It's a question of personal integrity. It is a matter of your personal conscience.

🙁 I actually don't know the answer to it. Yes, they would know because that's how I feel, haha. But no, because it's not on his/her transcript and the record is expunged. But I think if they do an investigation the schools would find out because being expunged doesn't mean it never happened.

 

[Dumbpremed]

I think you know the answer already. It's a question of personal integrity. It is a matter of your personal conscience.

To be honest, I really don't want to disclose it if I can because it's a really big red flag on my app and I'm not the best applicant out there. I know that I am at fault and what happened shouldn't have happened even if I didn't intend to cheat. I think it really comes down to us not citing the source but like I said, we didn't know it was going to be graded. Hopefully more people can pitch in on this matter and thank you guys for the help.

 

[Dumbpremed]

🙁 I actually don't know the answer to it. Yes, they would know because that's how I feel, haha. But no, because it's not on his/her transcript and the record is expunged. But I think if they do an investigation the schools would find out because being expunged doesn't mean it never happened.

What really got to me is the fact that the representative told me that no one would know about it.

 

[Daodejing]

Here's how I see it...you can either do the right thing or wait till LizzyM tells you to do the right thing.

 

[Dumbpremed]

I actually really want to hear what she says about this, even though I know what she is going to say.

 

[deleted492904]

🙁 I actually don't know the answer to it. Yes, they would know because that's how I feel, haha. But no, because it's not on his/her transcript and the record is expunged. But I think if they do an investigation the schools would find out because being expunged doesn't mean it never happened.

I think you know the answer already. It's a question of personal integrity. It is a matter of your personal conscience.

I think your last 2 sentences are going to give OP the wrong idea, but then again I kind of feel sorry for him if he got rejected because of it.

 

[coffeesnob]

I think your last 2 sentences are going to give OP the wrong idea, but then again I kind of feel sorry for him if he got rejected because of it.

I would be very surprised if the OP got rejected solely based on this incident. Even his school decided that it was a minor offense and will be expunged. A single, relatively minor violation will not prevent the OP from being considered for admission. Medical schools are looking for honesty and maturity here; these two qualities are important for the profession we are committing ourselves to. You can explain what happened. Just be honest and mature.

Adcom will assess the situation in the larger context of the overall application. We all learn from our mistakes. What is more telling of a person is how we handle our mess-ups.

Do what will help you sleep better at night for the rest of your career...during application cycle, interviews, four years of medical school, residency and future practice....

 

[911 Turbo]

Lol, don't report it if you don't have to man

 

[music2doc]

I know this is dumb but here goes. During my junior year, we had a group project for my spanish final. We were working on the outline and my partner copied something from the internet and used it. To be fair, he didn't know the outline was graded and he thought it was to just give the teacher an idea of what information we are going to use. I actually thought the same thing too so I didn't blame him too much for it. However, our teacher reported us and I don't blame him for it. We had to talk to the student misconduct guy, I forgot his official title. In the meeting, he told me that this matter will not go on the transcript. The only thing that they did was kept the outline and say it would be destroyed after I graduated. I actually talked the office couple days ago and they said that my academic misconduct is going to be expunged. My question is, will I have to answer this on the application and how it would affect me? Thanks for helping guys.

As I read this, there was no IA. The school essentially chose NOT to "charge" you as it were. No IA = no need to report it. Just be careful in the future.

 

[deleted492904]

Lol, don't report it if you don't have to man

I think he would have to report it because on the app it says to report even if it's deleted. But I think what OP wants us to tell him is whether the schools will find out if he didn't report it or not.

 

[Dumbpremed]

As I read this, there was no IA. The school essentially chose NOT to "charge" you as it were. No IA = no need to report it. Just be careful in the future.

What is an IA? Also thanks, for the help. TBH what I learned from this is tremendous and I've explained this in the meeting. I think what I told him played a pretty big role in his decision. I will definitely be very careful in future. Thanks again.

 

[music2doc]

I think he would have to report it because on the app it says to report even if it's deleted. But I think what OP wants us to tell him is whether the schools will find out if he didn't report it or not.

Again, you are all making the assumption this is actually an IA. The school specifically chose NOT to do anything. An IA indicates the school "did" something -- wrote up a report that was never challenged (and/or was upheld), performed an investigation that indicated fault, held a hearing ending in a guilty verdict, etc. None of those things appear to have happened. The OP was simply accused and had to speak with an ombudsmen or similar person who basically warned him and told him not to do it again. At least at the school where I taught, that was what happened when we decided to let you off the hook. An actual IA would have resulted in an F with possible suspension/expulsion (or probation at minimum).

 

[music2doc]

What is an IA? Also thanks, for the help. TBH what I learned from this is tremendous and I've explained this in the meeting. I think what I told him played a pretty big role in his decision. I will definitely be very careful in future. Thanks again.

Institutional Action

Contact your school and ask if this was an IA. If they said it was -- EVEN if it was expunged -- you MUST report it. However, if this is nothing more than a warning, there is no need to report it.

 

[LizzyM]

I actually really want to hear what she says about this, even though I know what she is going to say.

Based on AAMC instructions quoted above, it does appear that you are obligated to report this infraction. The fact that you must report something that could hurt you and that no one would otherwise know about is a test of your integrity. Are you an honest person?

You might describe it something like this:

During my junior year, I was a team member of a Spanish class group project . My partner copied something from the internet and used it as part of an outline. We didn't know the outline was graded and we thought it was to just give the instructor an idea of what information we were going to use. Our instructor reported us for academic misconduct. The outline was kept on file and will be destroyed after I graduate. According to the academic integrity office, this academic misconduct is going to be expunged from my record.

So, then the question for the committee to determine is, "would we want this person in our academic community?" YMMV but I wouldn't consider this to be misconduct so serious that you would be unwelcome in a medical school.

 

[loltopsy]

Based on AAMC instructions quoted above, it does appear that you are obligated to report this infraction. The fact that you must report something that could hurt you and that no one would otherwise know about is a test of your integrity. Are you an honest person?

You might describe it something like this:



So, then the question for the committee to determine is, "would we want this person in our academic community?" YMMV but I wouldn't consider this to be misconduct so serious that you would be unwelcome in a medical school.

Borderline stats applicant + IA might change your mind, but I can't say for sure. Regardless, I have a feeling this wasn't an IA, and OP just assumed it was.

 

[Dumbpremed]

Based on AAMC instructions quoted above, it does appear that you are obligated to report this infraction. The fact that you must report something that could hurt you and that no one would otherwise know about is a test of your integrity. Are you an honest person?

You might describe it something like this:



So, then the question for the committee to determine is, "would we want this person in our academic community?" YMMV but I wouldn't consider this to be misconduct so serious that you would be unwelcome in a medical school.

Thanks LizzyM. If I may ask, what do you look for in an explanation for my situation. Do you expect a long essay explaining what happened and saying that I learn from this. Or a simple explanation like what you have is good enough? Also thanks to everyone else in this thread.

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks LizzyM. If I may ask, what do you look for in an explanation for my situation. Do you expect a long essay explaining what happened and saying that I learn from this. Or a simple explanation like what you have is good enough? Also thanks to everyone else in this thread.

You aren't given much space to explain and I think that given the circumstances, the stuff I edited from your explanation would be sufficient.

 

[LizzyM]

Borderline stats applicant + IA might change your mind, but I can't say for sure. Regardless, I have a feeling this wasn't an IA, and OP just assumed it was.

Borderline stats have nothing to do with a decision as to whether an IA (or criminal record) is so bad that the person is unworthy to be a member of our academic community.

Of course, someone can pass the IA review and then found to have a gpa too low to be considered a good fit with our academic setting but that is independent of the IA.

 

[deleted492904]

Borderline stats have nothing to do with a decision as to whether an IA (or criminal record) is so bad that the person is unworthy to be a member of our academic community.

Of course, someone can pass the IA review and then found to have a gpa too low to be considered a good fit with our academic setting but that is independent of the IA.

Sorry for my ignorance, but does that mean that the schools have different process for them where some one would take a look at the criminal record and pass/fail the applicant and then send it to the adcoms that will look at the GPAs and MCAT scores? thanks.

 

[trs88]

Of course, someone can pass the IA review and then found to have a gpa too low to be considered a good fit with our academic setting but that is independent of the IA.

I might have my heart on my sleeve but I think that is a little sad. After the application cycle had ended and the applicant called/e-mailed asking for advice on how to improve - am I okay to assume that your response would be to improve their gpa with post-bachelor classes or improve their mcat score?

 

[aspiring20]

Institutional Action

Contact your school and ask if this was an IA. If they said it was -- EVEN if it was expunged -- you MUST report it. However, if this is nothing more than a warning, there is no need to report it.

that depends. some schools view warnings as an IAs, others don't.

but i agree that the OP should make sure that this counts as an IA. if it does, he should report it. if it isn't, then he can ignore it with a clean conscience.

 

[LizzyM]

I might have my heart on my sleeve but I think that is a little sad. After the application cycle had ended and the applicant called/e-mailed asking for advice on how to improve - am I okay to assume that your response would be to improve their gpa with post-bachelor classes or improve their mcat score?

What?? You think it is "a little sad" that people are denied admission to a medical school because their stats are too low for that specific school compared to the thousands of other applicants to that school? And yes, if the applicant with a 3.4/28 called and asked how to improve, in all likelihood the recommendation will be to retake the MCAT, take additional coursework and apply more broadly.

 

[trs88]

Not the part where they were rejected did I think was sad. The fact that they were invited for an interview and then rejected made me a little sad. I thought a little bit of the point of the interview was that the Adcom had looked at the grades and still deemed the applicant worth looking over. As in, the grades wouldn't reject the person after the interview - lack of maturity or communication skills during the interview would have the applicant rejected. It seems like a waste of the applicants time and possibly money to have them brought out and then rejected on knowledge known before the interview was even sent out.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Not the part where they were rejected did I think was sad. The fact that they were invited for an interview and then rejected made me a little sad. I thought a little bit of the point of the interview was that the Adcom had looked at the grades and still deemed the applicant worth looking over. As in, the grades wouldn't reject the person after the interview - lack of maturity or communication skills during the interview would have the applicant rejected. It seems like a waste of the applicants time and possibly money to have them brought out and then rejected on knowledge known before the interview was even sent out.

Welcome to the medical school application process. Gpa and MCAT count for most of your application, even post interview.

 

[LizzyM]

Not the part where they were rejected did I think was sad. The fact that they were invited for an interview and then rejected made me a little sad. I thought a little bit of the point of the interview was that the Adcom had looked at the grades and still deemed the applicant worth looking over. As in, the grades wouldn't reject the person after the interview - lack of maturity or communication skills during the interview would have the applicant rejected. It seems like a waste of the applicants time and possibly money to have them brought out and then rejected on knowledge known before the interview was even sent out.

Whoa! Where did you see "invited for an interview"?

Of course, someone can pass the IA review and then found to have a gpa too low to be considered a good fit with our academic setting but that is independent of the IA.

IA means institutional action. You pass the review of institutional action and then have a review of the rest of the application to determine if an interview invitation will be issued. There is no point in devoting any additional effort to an application review for possible interview invitation if the applicant has a IA that is a deal breaker such as being the leader of a 120 student cheating ring.

 

[Guero]

Not the part where they were rejected did I think was sad. The fact that they were invited for an interview and then rejected made me a little sad. I thought a little bit of the point of the interview was that the Adcom had looked at the grades and still deemed the applicant worth looking over. As in, the grades wouldn't reject the person after the interview - lack of maturity or communication skills during the interview would have the applicant rejected. It seems like a waste of the applicants time and possibly money to have them brought out and then rejected on knowledge known before the interview was even sent out.

Whoa! Where did you see "invited for an interview"?



IA means institutional action. You pass the review of institutional action and then have a review of the rest of the application to determine if an interview invitation will be issued. There is no point in devoting any additional effort to an application review for possible interview invitation if the applicant has a IA that is a deal breaker such as being the leader of a 120 student cheating ring.

Maybe s/he's relativizing this discussion to personal experience or to the experience of a friend?

FWIW, during my first cycle, I had two IIs: One resulted in a WL that never came to fruition. The other resulted in a rejection for which I received a letter explicitly relating the rejection to pre-interview info (MCAT). I felt slighted. But in retrospect, perhaps they were giving me a chance to provide some intangible aspect not previously mentioned elsewhere in my application to compensate? Who knows. I made it very clear in my application that extenuating circumstances contributed to the low score, to no avail. Then, after reapplying with an improved MCAT as my only substantive change, they admitted me at the first committee meeting following my interview.

/rant

 

[scene]

Don't disclose it unless you want to say good bye to any medical school. Plagiarism is plagiarism and ADCOMs will look down on you. Given the number of applicants, would they rather admit a plagiarizer or a clean slate?

 

[LizzyM]

Don't disclose it unless you want to say good bye to any medical school. Plagiarism is plagiarism and ADCOMs will look down on you. Given the number of applicants, would they rather admit a plagiarizer or a clean slate?

Do you believe that adcoms inhabit a world where there are no second chances and no opportunity for forgiveness of technical errors?

Do you believe that failing to disclose something that should be disclosed is justified under the circumstances? Can you justify almost anything if it works to your favor?

What would you do as an adcom if you discovered that someone failed to disclose a minor infraction that should have been disclosed?

 

[Dumbpremed]

Ok guys, here's what I found out today. The misconduct is a institutional action. This goes back to what aspiring20 said, where it depends on the school. My school views any student misconduct matter as a institutional action.

 

[Dumbpremed]

Do you believe that adcoms inhabit a world where there are no second chances and no opportunity for forgiveness of technical errors?

Do you believe that failing to disclose something that should be disclosed is justified under the circumstances? Can you justify almost anything if it works to your favor?

What would you do as an adcom if you discovered that someone failed to disclose a minor infraction that should have been disclosed?

LizzyM thanks for all the help, but one thing I'm confused about. My school actually said that it will never give away my information without my permission. How will the school find out?

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM thanks for all the help, but one thing I'm confused about. My school actually said that it will never give away my information without my permission. How will the school find out?

Without your permission. But if you request a letter of recommendation or a committee letter and you waive your right to the contents of the letter (which you have a right to see under federal law, ), it could be discosed in that way without your knowledge.

Honesty is the best policy. This IA will not, in all likelihood, be something that keeps you out of med school. Lying about it would keep you out.

 

[DokterMom]

Not disclosing something you're supposed to that they never find out about is not good, but looks neutral.

Proactively disclosing an honest mistake, especially when the school indicated they wouldn't disclose it, is the right thing to do and shows good character and high ethics.

Failing to disclose something that's in a gray area that they somehow do find out about shows the reverse.

 

[deleted492904]

OP, are there other things that are hindering your app?

 

[Lollygag]

I just think it's noteworthy to point out to OP, in case you don't know, that LizzyM is an adcom from a top 20 school (meaning a school that probably has first hand pick of the best applicants) and if she could be saying that medical schools can give you a second chance and that this incident wouldn't kill your chances... Then that definitely means something 😉

And TBH, this incident really doesn't seem that serious, I think the incidents that may significantly hurt you is if you have a DUI, drug possession or were in jail but even then, it seems like theres always a way to overcome. Demonstrating maturity through extracurriculars can go a long way.

 

[Dumbpremed]

I just think it's noteworthy to point out to OP, in case you don't know, that LizzyM is an adcom from a top 20 school (meaning a school that probably has first hand pick of the best applicants) and if she could be saying that medical schools can give you a second chance and that this incident wouldn't kill your chances... Then that definitely means something 😉

And TBH, this incident really doesn't seem that serious, I think the incidents that may significantly hurt you is if you have a DUI, drug possession or were in jail but even then, it seems like theres always a way to overcome. Demonstrating maturity through extracurriculars can go a long way.

OP, are there other things that are hindering your app?

Yes, I actually have a misdemeanor on my record from a few years ago. I think that will hinder my app too. Even though I've talked to a lawyer who said that he has friends who did worse things and got into med schools.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Just keep in mind that this guy is now a practicing physician:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...logruto-physics-teacher-taravella-high-school

 

[Lollygag]

Just keep in mind that this guy is now a practicing physician:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...logruto-physics-teacher-taravella-high-school

"It was triggered by a heavy course load at Taravella High School and the boy`s fear that a poor grade on a physics quiz would kill his dream of attending Harvard Medical School."



I wonder if he went to Harvard lol

 

[Dumbpremed]

Just keep in mind that this guy is now a practicing physician:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...logruto-physics-teacher-taravella-high-school

In my own opinion, what is bothering me is not the fact that I have small things in my app. Its just that I think these things add up. Sure, the misdemeanor was from almost 5 years ago and yea I know better now because I am more mature. But the things on my app just look really bad for me. I hope everyone understands why I am kind of sad about these things. Most important, thank you guys for the support.

 

[Lollygag]

In my own opinion, what is bothering me is not the fact that I have small things in my app. Its just that I think these things add up. Sure, the misdemeanor was from almost 5 years ago and yea I know better now because I am more mature. But the things on my app just look really bad for me. I hope everyone understands why I am kind of sad about these things. Most important, thank you guys for the support.

Well yea I think the majority of people have one or maybe several things on their application that don't look awesome but focus on the good things about your application. If you honestly can't look at your entire application and find anything good about it or anything that you are passionate about, then maybe you could consider taking a year off just to boost all of your activities.

 

[BLACKMD]

Check yes, and explain yourself in an interview or PS the same way you have explained yourself here. I've used an online outline as well :/ Had no clue it was that serious.

 

[music2doc]

Well yea I think the majority of people have one or maybe several things on their application that don't look awesome but focus on the good things about your application. If you honestly can't look at your entire application and find anything good about it or anything that you are passionate about, then maybe you could consider taking a year off just to boost all of your activities.

I know you are trying to be encouraging here, but I highly doubt "most people [who matriculate] have something on their application that doesn't look awesome." Most applicants who get to the interview stage (<10% at any given school) have relatively similar, pristine looking apps from what I hear. The difficulty is never determining who is acceptable. The difficult part is always determining who they will turn down. There is also a lot of political stuff that goes on and if one member really feels something about you is disqualifying, s/he may vote in a way to offset the votes of more sympathetic adcom members. Having a few pock marks can and does hurt people. That said, OP has to work with what he has. Make sure your numbers are solid, ECs are solid, and go from there. It is what it is.

 

[passionformed]

From AMCAS, verbatim with personal emphasis (boldfaced):

I think the safest thing to do is just report it. Take LizzyM's advice, she always she knows what she's talking about. Your chances will be minimally affected.

 

[Lollygag]

I know you are trying to be encouraging here, but I highly doubt "most people [who matriculate] have something on their application that doesn't look awesome." Most applicants who get to the interview stage (<10% at any given school) have relatively similar, pristine looking apps from what I hear. The difficulty is never determining who is acceptable. The difficult part is always determining who they will turn down. There is also a lot of political stuff that goes on and if one member really feels something about you is disqualifying, s/he may vote in a way to offset the votes of more sympathetic adcom members. Having a few pock marks can and does hurt people. That said, OP has to work with what he has. Make sure your numbers are solid, ECs are solid, and go from there. It is what it is.

When I say "something that doesn't look awesome" I don't necessarily mean something that looks bad, I mean it the same way it's stated as its something that just doesn't look awesome.

That could mean a WD from a semester, a boring personal statement, an LOR that is average, a downward trend, C's, they didn't have as much clinical experience, they never volunteered or maybe their just extremely cookie cutter.. Several people get into medical school with these things. What you are saying sounds like every applicant is perfect in all aspects and that's obviously not the case. Everybody has strong points and areas where they aren't as strong in so I'm hoping the OP will focus on the strengths in their app and not the weaknesses as much. If they have other strengths (most importantly in GPA and MCAT) then it's worth a shot of applying. If they feel the weaknesses outweigh the strengths then I would suggest taking a gap year.

Sure a WD or C in a pre-req isn't nearly as serious as an IA, I'm just saying it's not the end of the world and OP should focus on the parts of their application that they actually can control.