Need advice. Would you do this?

[aformerstudent]

Forgive me, I have to leave some parting goodbyes to my most gracious supporters...

Actually what you did was take some weak jabs of your own and then claimed you wouldn't respond anymore. I simply called you out on it.

Well from what I can see, you posted twice to my thread and just left two rather insulting remarks and then bounced without even leaving any useful advice relating to my original question. Not only does that demonstrate a lack of class and professionalism on your end as an MD but you obviously harbor some type of hate and/or bias and you appear to have a lot of aggression as I can infer from the language you are using. These are not good things to have in your position and quite frankly not very lady-like to boot. As an MD, why you felt the need to respond to my post, is quite puzzling since you are far removed from my situation and are in no position to offer any relevant advice. Maybe a slow day in the clinic?

Is that a promise????

As to how you are an adcom, is really beyond me. You are biased, rude, obnoxious, and very angry. If I were your boss and I read some of your unwarranted cheap shots, I would drag you out the door by the scruff of your neck.

Go to nursing school and get your NP. That's the best hope you've got of working in health care. As the match gets tighter, apps like yours are finding their way into the trash before they're even seen.

This is where arrogance comes into play. The SDN gang mentality wants to automatically put others down even though the other persons situation has no bearing on their own. Would I be the first person who switched Caribbean schools and then succeeded? Maybe that's an area that you are not well informed about. MD is an MD once you're in the system so try and wrap your heads around that. I guess it just feels good to tell someone to "give up." Probably gives you guys boners. What advice do you give your comrades who fail the boards, are incompetent, or worse, kill a patient? If it differs from your behavior here, then you all are hypocrites.

Now, let this thread just die off and keep your jabs to yourself and realize your intimidation is falling on deaf ears. We now know where we all stand on an issue like this. I'm moving ahead and I will succeed and I'm in the best position to succeed by starting over. You guys seem to underestimate me for some reason. I always have an ace somewhere up my sleeve and rest assured, my app will look error-free when a PD takes a look at it one day. Eat it.

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[Mad Jack]

Forgive me, I have to leave some parting goodbyes to my most gracious supporters...



Well from what I can see, you posted twice to my thread and just left two rather insulting remarks and then bounced without even leaving any useful advice relating to my original question. Not only does that demonstrate a lack of class and professionalism on your end as an MD but you obviously harbor some type of hate and/or bias and you appear to have a lot of aggression as I can infer from the language you are using. These are not good things to have in your position and quite frankly not very lady-like to boot. As an MD, why you felt the need to respond to my post, is quite puzzling since you are far removed from my situation and are in no position to offer any relevant advice. Maybe a slow day in the clinic?



As to how you are an adcom, is really beyond me. You are biased, rude, obnoxious, and very angry. If I were your boss and I read some of your unwarranted cheap shots, I would drag you out the door by the scruff of your neck.



This is where arrogance comes into play. The SDN gang mentality wants to automatically put others down even though the other persons situation has no bearing on their own. Would I be the first person who switched Caribbean schools and then succeeded? Maybe that's an area that you are not well informed about. MD is an MD once you're in the system so try and wrap your heads around that. I guess it just feels good to tell someone to "give up." Probably gives you guys boners. What advice do you give your comrades who fail the boards, are incompetent, or worse, kill a patient? If it differs from your behavior here, then you all are hypocrites.

Now, let this thread just die off and keep your jabs to yourself and realize your intimidation is falling on deaf ears. We now know where we all stand on an issue like this. I'm moving ahead and I will succeed and I'm in the best position to succeed by starting over. You guys seem to underestimate me for some reason. I always have an ace somewhere up my sleeve and rest assured, my app will look error-free when a PD takes a look at it one day. Eat it.

So, you're going to lie on your CV? That's something that will get you thrown out of residency and banned from the match.

 

[dpmd]

Well from what I can see, you posted twice to my thread and just left two rather insulting remarks and then bounced without even leaving any useful advice relating to my original question. Not only does that demonstrate a lack of class and professionalism on your end as an MD but you obviously harbor some type of hate and/or bias and you appear to have a lot of aggression as I can infer from the language you are using. These are not good things to have in your position and quite frankly not very lady-like to boot. As an MD, why you felt the need to respond to my post, is quite puzzling since you are far removed from my situation and are in no position to offer any relevant advice. Maybe a slow day in the clinic?

You simply failed to see it as advice (to accept the blunt truth you have been given that having to leave one Caribbean school and hoping to get into another by repeating all the classes you already took is a path that has a high likelihood of failing). You then attacked everyone for speaking the truth claiming everyone was being rude, insulting, and unprofessional. Coming from most people that kind of stuff just sounds whiny. Coming from someone who has dialed up the rude and insulting behavior it is comically hypocritical. Not sure how you feel a physician who has participated in the residency interview and selection process is not in a position to offer relevant advice. Your application will never be error free simply because going to a Caribbean school is still considered a red flag in residency application. If your plan to repeat everything lands you at sgu you will still have the red flag of a Caribbean school which will be compounded by the fact it will be your second attempt at med school. You seem to be under the impression you are being warned off it just to be mean and intimidate you which is crazy. Just think of it this way, don't you wish someone had been blunt enough with you to talk you out of a path likely to end in failure before you went to your original school?

 

[Jamie561]

u guys are all being way too hard on him ok anything can happen with an ounce of conviction and hard work he is already half way there they say that attitude is more than half the journey


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[aformerstudent]

You simply failed to see it as advice (to accept the blunt truth you have been given that having to leave one Caribbean school and hoping to get into another by repeating all the classes you already took is a path that has a high likelihood of failing). You then attacked everyone for speaking the truth claiming everyone was being rude, insulting, and unprofessional. Coming from most people that kind of stuff just sounds whiny. Coming from someone who has dialed up the rude and insulting behavior it is comically hypocritical. Not sure how you feel a physician who has participated in the residency interview and selection process is not in a position to offer relevant advice. Your application will never be error free simply because going to a Caribbean school is still considered a red flag in residency application. If your plan to repeat everything lands you at sgu you will still have the red flag of a Caribbean school which will be compounded by the fact it will be your second attempt at med school. You seem to be under the impression you are being warned off it just to be mean and intimidate you which is crazy. Just think of it this way, don't you wish someone had been blunt enough with you to talk you out of a path likely to end in failure before you went to your original school?

A couple things...

1. My understanding is there are 500 or so IM programs in this country. If you are implying that an SGU student with even decent step scores could not match into one of those programs. Well I don't buy that. You might see an IMG as not desirable but there is at least some program in an IMG friendly state that is looking for IMG's to fill their spots. You might not want to work in an inner-city hospital, but some of us will take that opportunity.

2. No, you are incorrect. Why do you assume, it would be difficult to get into another Caribbean school. If you improve your stats, you get another shot. It would be hard to get into another Caribbean school if you are transferring or if you failed STEP1 and were trying to transfer. If you are restarting, it's pretty much a clean slate. Going from three terms of medical school back to undergrad? At that point, how do you fail undergrad courses which cover a fraction of what was covered in medical school with first-order questions? Am I missing something there?

3. The red flags that I would be most concerned with are taking longer than four years to finish, failing a board exam, and entering the match for the second or third time. If anything, a program would look at my determination and be like "this dude has balls the size of grapefruits to do what he did, and he is obviously dedicated to this profession...we want him on our team." I mean seriously, statistics aside, you don't want a wimp on your team or someone who can't handle when things go south. I mean if you and I were working together on a coding patient, are you going to stop and ask me how I got my MD or are we going to just work and save that patient? That's just being realistic. Twenty years down the road, nobody is going to ask me even if I went to SGU.

4. Why are you guys hell bent on failure? I thought I had said, I took a shortcut that led to nowhere and now I want to do it right so I am starting from the beginning. Did you miss the part where I said I took three NBME subject exams and "passed?" And now I am going back to undergrad to make myself look better for a Caribbean school, SGU, that can actually produce results? What part of that scenario gave you guys the right to assume I was stupid or something? Stupid to go to a lesser school, ok you got me there. But that's the past and this is now.

 

[dpmd]

A couple things...

1. My understanding is there are 500 or so IM programs in this country. If you are implying that an SGU student with even decent step scores could not match into one of those programs. Well I don't buy that. You might see an IMG as not desirable but there is at least some program in an IMG friendly state that is looking for IMG's to fill their spots. You might not want to work in an inner-city hospital, but some of us will take that opportunity.

2. No, you are incorrect. Why do you assume, it would be difficult to get into another Caribbean school. If you improve your stats, you get another shot. It would be hard to get into another Caribbean school if you are transferring or if you failed STEP1 and were trying to transfer. If you are restarting, it's pretty much a clean slate. Going from three terms of medical school back to undergrad? At that point, how do you fail undergrad courses which cover a fraction of what was covered in medical school with first-order questions? Am I missing something there?

3. The red flags that I would be most concerned with are taking longer than four years to finish, failing a board exam, and entering the match for the second or third time. If anything, a program would look at my determination and be like "this dude has balls the size of grapefruits to do what he did, and he is obviously dedicated to this profession...we want him on our team." I mean seriously, statistics aside, you don't want a wimp on your team or someone who can't handle when things go south. I mean if you and I were working together on a coding patient, are you going to stop and ask me how I got my MD or are we going to just work and save that patient? That's just being realistic. Twenty years down the road, nobody is going to ask me even if I went to SGU.

4. Why are you guys hell bent on failure? I thought I had said, I took a shortcut that led to nowhere and now I want to do it right so I am starting from the beginning. Did you miss the part where I said I took three NBME subject exams and "passed?" And now I am going back to undergrad to make myself look better for a Caribbean school, SGU, that can actually produce results? What part of that scenario gave you guys the right to assume I was stupid or something? Stupid to go to a lesser school, ok you got me there. But that's the past and this is now.

You still aren't getting it. According to the 2016 press release of the USIMG students that submitted a rank list, about half matched into their preferred specialty. So I am willing to assume you will successfully repeat your undergrad courses, and I am willing to assume sgu will be happy to take your money. What I am not willing to assume is that you will have a high chance of being in the group that:
A. Finishes the program
B. Obtains interviews for residency
C. Actually matches

Has nothing to do with personal feelings about you or thinking you are stupid. It has to do with the realities of there being more residency applicants than available spots so programs can be as selective as they want to be.

 

[aformerstudent]

You still aren't getting it. According to the 2016 press release of the USIMG students that submitted a rank list, about half matched into their preferred specialty. So I am willing to assume you will successfully repeat your undergrad courses, and I am willing to assume sgu will be happy to take your money. What I am not willing to assume is that you will have a high chance of being in the group that:
A. Finishes the program
B. Obtains interviews for residency
C. Actually matches

Has nothing to do with personal feelings about you or thinking you are stupid. It has to do with the realities of there being more residency applicants than available spots so programs can be as selective as they want to be.

No, I get it but maybe we are looking at this through two different lenses. I don't know what kind of hospital you are affiliated with but at small community hospitals, they can be as selective as they want but they will not attract high-achieving AMG's. They can even screen out all IMG's and FMG's and those programs would have unfilled slots because no AMG is going to pick some community-based IM program as their first choice. Now as an IMG who WANTS primary care at a community hospital program and wants to become a hospitalist, that program, regardless of what they say, will be looking at those IMG apps. I'll even go as far as saying they will take people with scores below what the averages state. So stats are one thing but reality is not always reflective of said stats. If I'm wrong, you can correct me on that but I have worked at several hospitals like the ones I am describing above and I have not seen more than two AMG's in either the IM or FM programs in the same year for at least 15 years. That comes down to being realistic as an IMG as to where to apply and what strategy to use. Now filtering that scenario even more, who do you think stands a better shot in a program like that, an SGU grad or some FMG who can't speak English properly with no US clinical experience or worse yet, someone from a third-tier Caribbean school?

I'll go back to what I had said earlier, medicine is not really about genius. I had a sub 3.0 science GPA when I applied and I still passed gross anatomy in ten weeks with a B. It's about refinement. You have to understand the game and then start playing by the rules. If I thought it was about genius, don't you think I would have found another career by now? This is medicine, we're not going to the moon.

 

[dpmd]

No, I get it but maybe we are looking at this through two different lenses. I don't know what kind of hospital you are affiliated with but at small community hospitals, they can be as selective as they want but they will not attract high-achieving AMG's. They can even screen out all IMG's and FMG's and those programs would have unfilled slots because no AMG is going to pick some community-based IM program as their first choice. Now as an IMG who WANTS primary care at a community hospital program and wants to become a hospitalist, that program, regardless of what they say, will be looking at those IMG apps. I'll even go as far as saying they will take people with scores below what the averages state. So stats are one thing but reality is not always reflective of said stats. If I'm wrong, you can correct me on that but I have worked at several hospitals like the ones I am describing above and I have not seen more than two AMG's in either the IM or FM programs in the same year for at least 15 years. That comes down to being realistic as an IMG as to where to apply and what strategy to use. Now filtering that scenario even more, who do you think stands a better shot in a program like that, an SGU grad or some FMG who can't speak English properly with no US clinical experience or worse yet, someone from a third-tier Caribbean school?

I'll go back to what I had said earlier, medicine is not really about genius. I had a sub 3.0 science GPA when I applied and I still passed gross anatomy in ten weeks with a B. It's about refinement. You have to understand the game and then start playing by the rules. If I thought it was about genius, don't you think I would have found another career by now? This is medicine, we're not going to the moon.

Community program in a town not considered highly desirable where we had Caribbean students rotating with us so I have the benefit of knowing the struggles those students went through to get in as well as seeing how the applicants to our program were viewed. Sure you may be more desirable that the fmg who doesn't speak English well, but do you really think someone who had to repeat med school is going to be more desirable than the fmg who speaks English well and has us clinical experience along with their prior publications and training in their country? I am not even certain you would be more desirable than the lower tier Caribbean grad who finished in the shortest possible time with excellent scores and evals the whole time.

 

[Goro]

OK, I'm beginning to smell one of these...but in the Streampaw class:

So I'll make it easy:
:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[aformerstudent]

Community program in a town not considered highly desirable where we had Caribbean students rotating with us so I have the benefit of knowing the struggles those students went through to get in as well as seeing how the applicants to our program were viewed. Sure you may be more desirable that the fmg who doesn't speak English well, but do you really think someone who had to repeat med school is going to be more desirable than the fmg who speaks English well and has us clinical experience along with their prior publications and training in their country? I am not even certain you would be more desirable than the lower tier Caribbean grad who finished in the shortest possible time with excellent scores and evals the whole time.

Ok, but I want to be clear that I am no longer advocating for just Caribbean students. I have seen the inner workings of a lower-tiered school and I have seen and heard enough that I would never look at them as options. If SGU ever became unattainable, I would tell someone to quit this path. Having said that, yeah, I think all Caribbean students face struggles but you do have an advantage coming from SGU or maybe even Ross if you are competitive.

But how do we know we are up against the finest of FMG's as you described? At the hospital I was at, some of those FMG's had that "why am I here and what am I doing with my life" look on their face every time a code was called. I'm being serious too and don't tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. Not knocking on FMG's as I have seen brilliant FMG's from Europe, The Middle East, and India but even those brilliant FMG's have standards and look elsewhere too.

Again, after attending a lower-tiered school, the resources just aren't there. I'm sorry but when you are completing rotations at different hospitals all over the country and that too at, IMO, the worst possible hospitals, I don't know how you can go up against an SGU student who was able to complete all of their cores in one geographical location at a hospital that actually had a solid clinical program. Some people were at my school for cost and in the long-run, I don't believe it even pays off even if you somehow make it through. SGU is more expensive, more selective, and even harder to make it out of but your odds go up drastically if you can make it through their program. Do you honestly believe every single student is coming in with the intensity that I am? I'm going to beat those guys and I'm going to go get my spot at the top because I know this path better than most.

I'm trying to be realistic but we can't just assume worst case scenarios here.

 

[aformerstudent]

OK, I'm beginning to smell one of these...but in the Streampaw class:

So I'll make it easy:

Why do you still have a job?

 

[Dr.SFla]

You're looking for advice? you're getting advice....perhaps not the kind that you were seeking.

You want to become a medical doctor? Great! However, there are certain milemarkers of which you must meet. First, you have to change your thinking. You set out on a mission to obtain approval and advice from complete strangers online because you are not certain of yourself and think that you, yourself, are not capable of achieving what you think you want. (Very meta- I know) Second, change your feelings. It seems that you may be in a place where you are not happy with your life...which is understandable however, this is not the time to be mistreating yourself. How do you start changing your feelings? By successfully changing your thinking. Once you start to see yourself through a different lens, you will be able to see your path a little clearer, in turn you will feel better about yourself, your paths and life in general. Third, change your behavior. It is evident what caused you to be in the situation that you are right now. You're behavior on this forum demonstrates that you are not ready to have someone else's life in your hands. A doctor is a life long learner and achiever. Your lack of respect for the field is evident in your unwillingness to even look up a simple term that someone talks about, insulting the field and disrespecting individuals who have successfully entered the field-that very same field you so heartedly wish to enter.

I don't know you and maybe no one on this forum knows you. However, what we do know is what YOU are putting out there. You want to be someone you've never been, then do something about it. Change your thinking, change your feeling, change your behavior. It's an interesting pyramid of levels that must be met before achieving success. One that I could compare to someone else's 1943 pyramid but why would I, you're not interested in that.

Best of luck!

We plant seeds in hope that someday a flower will bloom.

 

[Shotapp]

Forgive me, I have to leave some parting goodbyes to my most gracious supporters...



Well from what I can see, you posted twice to my thread and just left two rather insulting remarks and then bounced without even leaving any useful advice relating to my original question. Not only does that demonstrate a lack of class and professionalism on your end as an MD but you obviously harbor some type of hate and/or bias and you appear to have a lot of aggression as I can infer from the language you are using. These are not good things to have in your position and quite frankly not very lady-like to boot. As an MD, why you felt the need to respond to my post, is quite puzzling since you are far removed from my situation and are in no position to offer any relevant advice. Maybe a slow day in the clinic?



As to how you are an adcom, is really beyond me. You are biased, rude, obnoxious, and very angry. If I were your boss and I read some of your unwarranted cheap shots, I would drag you out the door by the scruff of your neck.



This is where arrogance comes into play. The SDN gang mentality wants to automatically put others down even though the other persons situation has no bearing on their own. Would I be the first person who switched Caribbean schools and then succeeded? Maybe that's an area that you are not well informed about. MD is an MD once you're in the system so try and wrap your heads around that. I guess it just feels good to tell someone to "give up." Probably gives you guys boners. What advice do you give your comrades who fail the boards, are incompetent, or worse, kill a patient? If it differs from your behavior here, then you all are hypocrites.

Now, let this thread just die off and keep your jabs to yourself and realize your intimidation is falling on deaf ears. We now know where we all stand on an issue like this. I'm moving ahead and I will succeed and I'm in the best position to succeed by starting over. You guys seem to underestimate me for some reason. I always have an ace somewhere up my sleeve and rest assured, my app will look error-free when a PD takes a look at it one day. Eat it.

Your posts are quite entertaining. Keep them coming.

 

[aformerstudent]

You're looking for advice? you're getting advice....perhaps not the kind that you were seeking.

You want to become a medical doctor? Great! However, there are certain milemarkers of which you must meet. First, you have to change your thinking. You set out on a mission to obtain approval and advice from complete strangers online because you are not certain of yourself and think that you, yourself, are not capable of achieving what you think you want. (Very meta- I know) Second, change your feelings. It seems that you may be in a place where you are not happy with your life...which is understandable however, this is not the time to be mistreating yourself. How do you start changing your feelings? By successfully changing your thinking. Once you start to see yourself through a different lens, you will be able to see your path a little clearer, in turn you will feel better about yourself, your paths and life in general. Third, change your behavior. It is evident what caused you to be in the situation that you are right now. You're behavior on this forum demonstrates that you are not ready to have someone else's life in your hands. A doctor is a life long learner and achiever. Your lack of respect for the field is evident in your unwillingness to even look up a simple term that someone talks about, insulting the field and disrespecting individuals who have successfully entered the field-that very same field you so heartedly wish to enter.

I don't know you and maybe no one on this forum knows you. However, what we do know is what YOU are putting out there. You want to be someone you've never been, then do something about it. Change your thinking, change your feeling, change your behavior. It's an interesting pyramid of levels that must be met before achieving success. One that I could compare to someone else's 1943 pyramid but why would I, you're not interested in that.

Best of luck!

We plant seeds in hope that someday a flower will bloom.

Ok, fair enough. Let's talk turkey here then. The goal is to become a medical doctor. We all know it's tough to get in, and tough to get out depending on what route you take. I took a path I regret and now I am not in a good spot; right now at least. So I came here to figure out the reality of moving forward as you don't walk away from something unless you have to. So what do I get when I come here...mind you very humbly at that? "your career is over" "stupid" "*******" "hope you fail" "become a nurse" and so forth. That's where this thread went downhill because well, nobody wants to hear that and on top of that I know, at least some of you, know that I know what I'm talking about so where that level of negativity came from is beyond my understanding.

So that's where I am right now. Regarding anything related to the clinical side of medical training, I'm not focused on that yet. So it's not fair to say I'm "not ready to have someone else's life in [your] hands." If you make it to that part of training, then you make that assessment at that point. There are no patients at this stage. The point right now is school and basic sciences and I'm headed back to school to fix that part of it. This includes retaking all the pre-reqs, and one-semester of additional coursework and then taking the MCAT to essentially validate that work. No shortcuts there and not something the average person would do so give me some credit. What is this about changing my thinking and my attitude? Didn't I do that? If I didn't, I would be asking for shortcuts to find the quickest possible backdoor back into some Caribbean program that would take me regardless of the past work. I even posted my experience encouraging students not to apply to a low-tiered Caribbean program based on my experience.

The answers I was looking for in this thread were along the lines..."never seen it done" "seen it done" "it's rare" "it'll take a lot of work" or something objective like that which would allow me to calculate the next plan. A few honest people offered advice along those lines but the majority just saw this thread as an opportunity to go on the offensive and hit below the belt.

And lets get something straight, I can see the Caribbean bias here but don't fall into the trap of judging someone based on what route they took to getting the MD. I'm guilty of that believe it or not but not anymore because I've lived a little and met a lot of people and every person is different. When I said I wasn't stubborn or unreasonable I was referring to the fact that if I did not feel like I would make a good doctor or that I wasn't doing this for the right reason, then I would not be on this path. So lets not judge why each of us chose this path because we don't know. I might be a Carib guy but I have some experiences and exposure that the average student can't even talk about. So I know where I'm headed and what to expect and I obviously feel confident I can do it.

Personally, I disagree with the path to medical school. It directly rewards a select few and indirectly screws over plenty of well-qualified people who would otherwise make excellent physicians. But as I stated, it's a numbers game and some of you were lucky to realize that from a young age or you may even have had the positive reinforcement to steer you on that path. Some of us didn't go down that path and we are forced to learn by making some mistakes. So welcome to my world.

Well regarding "planting seeds," that would be nice...if that was your intention. What some of you are doing is more like the equivalent of laying asphalt on said seeds.

I don't know what else more there is to say. My plan is very realistic and the only barrier to this would be if something drastically changes with the whole IMG outlook in the coming years. When I was researching all of this back in 2010, I read reports that there would be no IMG matches by 2017. Well, that has proven to be false. So I guess I can only do my part and see where it goes.

 

[Goro]

:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[deleted831695]

And lets get something straight, I can see the Caribbean bias here but don't fall into the trap of judging someone based on what route they took to getting the MD.

That's not the issue. If you succeed in matching, nobody will (or should) care.

The problem is whether you'll succeed at SGU and be able to match. That's what everyone is cautioning.

 

[throw_away5122]

Everyone already recommend you not to continue. I feel really bad for your, but I will have to recommend you the same. In case you are very stubborn and insist to keep trying, I would recommend to apply to post-bac program at D.O. school that guarantee admission if you do well. TUCOM master program come in to mind. They take in about 80 students and if you are the top 35 performer, you are guaranteed admission. It still suck, but this master program is only 1 year, and you know for sure if you can make it or not in 1 year. Admissions Requirements - Touro University, California

 

[aformerstudent]

Everyone already recommend you not to continue. I feel really bad for your, but I will have to recommend you the same. In case you are very stubborn and insist to keep trying, I would recommend to apply to post-bac program at D.O. school that guarantee admission if you do well. TUCOM master program come in to mind. They take in about 80 students and if you are the top 35 performer, you are guaranteed admission. It still suck, but this master program is only 1 year, and you know for sure if you can make it or not in 1 year. Admissions Requirements - Touro University, California

Yeah, they have given advice but it's all based on personal bias.

Unless someone can statistically prove that every person in my position or better yet at least more than half of students in my position will "fail" the second time around, then we can have a discussion.

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah, they have given advice but it's all based on personal bias.

The personal bias that is most relevant to your situation is the preference PD's have for AMG's as well as those who have completed their medical education in the expected number of years. Programs filter for year of graduation as well.

 

[aformerstudent]

The personal bias that is most relevant to your situation is the preference PD's have for AMG's as well as those who have completed their medical education in the expected number of years. Programs filter for year of graduation as well.

We know that. But with all do respect, as I had mentioned previously, there are programs in this country that can court an AMG all they want but will still have their program filled with IMG's and FMG's "who can't speak English properly." It's one of those "think outside the box" scenarios where a lot of people are basing decisions on the overall big picture without looking at programs that most students would probably not consider.

Are you suggesting that a 300-bed community hospital in an IMG-friendly state is actively pursuing AMG's? Are AMG's even applying to those programs?

 

[gyngyn]

We know that. But with all do respect, as I had mentioned previously, there are programs in this country that can court an AMG all they want but will still have their program filled with IMG's and FMG's "who can't speak English properly." It's one of those "think outside the box" scenarios where a lot of people are basing decisions on the overall big picture without looking at programs that most students would probably not consider.

Are you suggesting that a 300-bed community hospital in an IMG-friendly state is actively pursuing AMG's? Are AMG's even applying to those programs?

The Match is the very last point in the journey.
Multiple precedent filters are much more likely to catch you.
Programs also choose not to fill rather than match a high risk candidate..

 

[aformerstudent]

That is the very last point in the journey.
Multiple precedent filters are much more likely to catch you.
Programs also choose not to fill rather than match a high risk candidate..

We're splitting hairs now.

 

[gyngyn]

We're splitting hairs now.

There are a whole head full of "hairs" standing between you and an ERAS application. Those are the ones that are the bigger challenge to your success.

 

[aformerstudent]

There are a whole head full of "hairs" standing between you and an ERAS application. Those are the ones that are the bigger challenge to your success.

Again, with all do respect...I believe you are seriously mistaken.

I've seen Caribbean students match with sub 200 STEP scores. It might not be at your program but it's happening.

As far as ERAS, I have nothing on my record that would prevent me form moving forward and attempting a Caribbean medical school again. Again, you must "think outside the box."

 

[gyngyn]

Again, with all do respect...I believe you are seriously mistaken.

I've seen Caribbean students match with sub 200 STEP scores. It might not be at your program but it's happening.

As far as ERAS, I have nothing on my record that would prevent me form moving forward and attempting a Caribbean medical school again. Again, you must "think outside the box."

Sorry, I thought you were asking for my opinion.

 

[aformerstudent]

Sorry, I thought you were asking for my opinion.

I was, but you answered again with a bias towards your school or similar schools/programs. Why can't you just say "well, it can happen, I'm not familiar with those programs."

As a physician, I would think you would have to think beyond the book at some point. I don't know why that wouldn't apply to a medical student.

 

[Goro]

Sorry, I thought you were asking for my opinion.

You tried colleague valiantly , but, really, OP wants to hear what he wants to hear. In 4-5 years, when he's driving for Uber or staking T-shirts at Walmart, maybe he'll sing a different tune. Or maybe not.

The below is an easier path:


:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[gyngyn]

I was, but you answered again with a bias towards your school or similar schools/programs. Why can't you just say "well, it can happen, I'm not familiar with those programs."

As a physician, I would think you would have to think beyond the book at some point. I don't know why that wouldn't apply to a medical student.

I can see how someone might reasonably assume this. As it happens, much of my career has been devoted to training residents in what I will agree is a very selective program. Another significant portion has been devoted to advising medical students toward a successful Match. Given the wide range of strengths and aspirations that students bring to the process, I have become familiar with an equally broad range of residency programs. Many of them would not be described as selective at all.

 

[bears1992]

Anyway @LizzyM or @gonnif could weigh in on this? Apparently the 2 medical school adcoms in this thread are not enough for OP.

 

[aformerstudent]

I can see how someone might reasonably assume this. As it happens, much of my career has been devoted to training residents in what I will agree is a very selective program. Another significant portion has been devoted to advising medical students toward a successful Match. Given the wide range of strengths and aspirations that students bring to the process, I have had to become familiar with an equally broad range of residency programs. Many of them would not be described as selective at all.

You seem like a genuine person and I can tell that you mean well. I pointed a lot of stuff out in my previous posts but some people just resort to attacking me for some reason. One of those things was that medicine is not a one-size-fits-all career. I guarantee those residents you are training will see things that the residents at the smaller IMG-friendly community program won't even read about. But does that mean one doctor is better than the other? I personally don't think so. As you get older, you begin to see that one person is not going to change the world or change medicine for that matter. If you're coming from that small community program and working within that community, then if you do that well, you can theoretically be as successful as the doctor who went to the much larger program and is doing much "bigger" things. And that all comes back to the Caribbean. Maybe the Caribbean is a good route for someone who would be very satisfied coming out of that smaller program. I think my critics are failing to see that. Now getting out off the island is another topic of discussion but I'd argue that, if you want it bad enough, you'll make it happen.

 

[gyngyn]

You seem like a genuine person and I can tell that you mean well. I pointed a lot of stuff out in my previous posts but some people just resort to attacking me for some reason. One of those things was that medicine is not a one-size-fits-all career. I guarantee those residents you are training will see things that the residents at the smaller IMG-friendly community program won't even read about. But does that mean one doctor is better than the other? I personally don't think so. As you get older, you begin to see that one person is not going to change the world or change medicine for that matter. If you're coming from that small community program and working within that community, then if you do that well, you can theoretically be as successful as the doctor who went to the much larger program and is doing much "bigger" things. And that all comes back to the Caribbean. Maybe the Caribbean is a good route for someone who would be very satisfied coming out of that smaller program. I think my critics are failing to see that. Now getting out off the island is another topic of discussion but I'd argue that, if you want it bad enough, you'll make it happen.

I was under the impression that you were asking whether your plan was likely to result in a US residency.
Again, my error.

 

[aformerstudent]

I was under the impression that you were asking whether your plan was likely to result in a US residency.
Again, my error.

It was, but how would you have the answer to that? You can only speak for your "territory" so to speak. They don't call them IMG-friendly states for nothing.

 

[gyngyn]

It was

My observation is that PD's are even more risk averse than US medical school admissions deans.
The number of risk factors tolerated varies by specialty and the selectivity of the program (in that you are correct). Weak students have to apply to weak programs, in fact to the very programs you are describing. That is how I have become familiar with "IMG friendly" states and programs. "Weakness" is an acquired condition for many previously strong students.
You may not be aware that even very weak programs would rather not fill than take a high risk applicant.
Your narrative already includes a significant number of such risk factors.
Most medical students start with a "clean slate." Your slate has already accrued several "dings" even before you start your next try at medical school. Your decision to continue (or not) should be informed by this.

 

[aformerstudent]

My observation is that PD's are even more risk averse than US medical school admissions deans.
The number of risk factors tolerated varies by specialty and the selectivity of the program (in that you are correct).
You may not be aware that even very weak programs would rather not fill than take a high risk applicant.
Your narrative already includes a significant number of such risk factors.
Most medical students start with a "clean slate." Your slate has already accrued several "dings" even before you start your next try at medical school. Your decision to continue (or not) should be informed by this.

Not arguing that. But isn't that where third and fourth year strategy comes into play? If I get that PD to notice me, I have a better chance that they will see more than what's on the paper. I mean it's kinda like dating don't you think?

But I agree that programs want to pick those that they know will do well in their program and succeed but by that time we would already have a lot more information than we do right now with respect to board scores, clerkship grades, letters, and overall impressions.

The hospital that I have worked at has filled all eight spots in IM for at least 15 years. Some looked really good to me and others probably never wanted to become doctors in the first place.

Are they risk factors or are they stutter-steps?

I agree, I don't have a clean slate but I'm a little wiser going forward. I mean I'm here on SDN having a mature conversation with an adcom member. If I finished the program in four years with the stats I need, I'd be in a better position than someone who started with a clean slate but got dinged later on through the process.

 

[gyngyn]

Are they risk factors or are they stutter-steps?

I agree, I don't have a clean slate but I'm a little wiser going forward. I mean I'm here on SDN having a mature conversation with an adcom member. If I finished the program in four years with the stats I need, I'd be in a better position than someone who started with a clean slate but got dinged later on through the process.

They are risk factors if you are a PD.
They count up the points (or have a filter do it) and there is no further evaluation.
No one can predict the future. Maybe things will get better for IMG's.
Maybe you will find a program that will overlook the dings.
I am telling you that I have seen US AMG's with fewer dings than you not match, even when they targeted "IMG friendly programs."

 

[aformerstudent]

They are risk factors if you are a PD.
They count up the points (or have a filter do it) and there is no further evaluation.

Fair enough.

But I was told that if you want it, not to give up on it. Perhaps my story is not the ideal one but I don't believe I'm out of the race.

 

[gyngyn]

Fair enough.

But I was told that if you want it, not to give up on it. Perhaps my story is not the ideal one but I don't believe I'm out of the race.

You get to decide at this point.
Others will decide it later.

 

[aformerstudent]

You get to decide at this point.
Others will decide it later.

Touche. I suppose the next six years are going to be very busy then.

 

[aformerstudent]

 

[aformerstudent]

@aformerstudent Rule 1: Take a Breath

I dont know enough of the specifics of your

1) actual academic record
2) MCAT
3) history in total as a non trad
4) as to their current internal state

to offer a real opinion. I will say that rather than fighting here and defending a desire, you need to work with someone to explore the possibilities. While I have certainly worked with nontrads who were written off by everyone, I probably have helped as many people get off this path and to something else in life as I do medicine. Whatever anger, turmoil, and etc that has been felt by the OP, thrashing here in SDN wont answer the real question of where can you succeed and what can you succeed in.

Hello,

I can send you more of the specifics privately if you wish to discuss this situation.

 

[LizzyM]

You seem like a genuine person and I can tell that you mean well. I pointed a lot of stuff out in my previous posts but some people just resort to attacking me for some reason. One of those things was that medicine is not a one-size-fits-all career. I guarantee those residents you are training will see things that the residents at the smaller IMG-friendly community program won't even read about. But does that mean one doctor is better than the other? I personally don't think so. As you get older, you begin to see that one person is not going to change the world or change medicine for that matter. If you're coming from that small community program and working within that community, then if you do that well, you can theoretically be as successful as the doctor who went to the much larger program and is doing much "bigger" things. And that all comes back to the Caribbean. Maybe the Caribbean is a good route for someone who would be very satisfied coming out of that smaller program. I think my critics are failing to see that. Now getting out off the island is another topic of discussion but I'd argue that, if you want it bad enough, you'll make it happen.

You have a lot of optimism. Even given your experience, you remain optimistic. Perhaps you have a future as an oncologist. We'll never know if you don't try. Most of us do not believe that you have even a modest likelihood of success where success is defined as US licensure as a physician, but you won't know if you don't try. Take it one step of a time but know that the deck is stacked against you given your past history.

 

[throw_away5122]

My observation is that PD's are even more risk averse than US medical school admissions deans.
The number of risk factors tolerated varies by specialty and the selectivity of the program (in that you are correct). Weak students have to apply to weak programs, in fact to the very programs you are describing. That is how I have become familiar with "IMG friendly" states and programs. "Weakness" is an acquired condition for many previously strong students.
You may not be aware that even very weak programs would rather not fill than take a high risk applicant.
Your narrative already includes a significant number of such risk factors.
Most medical students start with a "clean slate." Your slate has already accrued several "dings" even before you start your next try at medical school. Your decision to continue (or not) should be informed by this.

you are so patient with OP. Wish my own school administrators has this kind of patient when dealing with me though.

 

[aformerstudent]

 

[Lawpy]

 

[Dawn1218]

Yeah, I get it, all, that med speak and med school stuff is just geek stuff. Continue to disregard. Hope you don't flunk out this time.

This woman is amazing; a perfect blend of intelligence and sass. Crayola227, you're awesome.




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