Need Based Financial Aid

[A Nony Mouse]

Well at least the image of someone trying to get in and out of an elevator with a half body cast and two sacks of groceries is pretty amusing...

But you're missing the point here... If your family has the money to help out extended family, they have the money to help you out.

I find it amusing you think you know more about my family than I do. Good night.

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[MedPR]

I find it amusing you think you know more about my family than I do. Good night.

You told us all we need to know. Your parents support other people and therefore will not support you if something should happen. You said all those things. We are just telling you that there's a difference between your situation (your parents prioritizing other family members) and the situation of others who don't have money to prioritize after the mortgage/utilities are paid.

 

[galaxyx]

New solution: Get into Harvard. School waves EFC for all families making under $120,000 AND undergraduate debt load is considered. Problem solved. Good Luck.

 

[A Nony Mouse]

You told us all we need to know. Your parents support other people and therefore will not support you if something should happen. You said all those things. We are just telling you that there's a difference between your situation (your parents prioritizing other family members) and the situation of others who don't have money to prioritize after the mortgage/utilities are paid.

Except the "other people" is still my family. I guess my parents could choose to let my Aunt, Uncle, and 2 cousins lose their townhouse but that is their priority.

My apologies for somehow derailing this thread.

 

[MedPR]

Except the "other people" is still my family. I guess my parents could choose to let my Aunt, Uncle, and 2 cousins lose there townhouse but that is their priority.

My apologies for somehow derailing this thread.

Your parents are doing a very nice thing by helping out your aunt/uncle/cousins financially. However, they are doing it by choice with disposable income. Not choosing to allocate disposable income to helping your kids is not the same as not having disposable income to help your kids with. That's all I'm saying.

 

[yellowfish]

I'm just wondering what the chance is that I'll receive need-based financial aid. I've gotten into some schools that I really like but they're privates and some of the most expensive schools in country. I haven't gotten into any state (public) schools. My parents are in the ~$150k (maybe a little over) income bracket, but I still have a sibling in college. They live in an area with a high cost of living and have many expenses including a mortgage and they will not able to support me at all in med school. The budget for the schools I've been accepted to exceeds $70k/year. I want to do primary care (esp FM), but I feel like I'll be in debt for the rest of my life!

To go back on topic, I just want to say that at some schools, OP, you have a very good chance of getting a significant amount of need-based grants in addition to need-based loans. 150k isn't a huge family income, and additionally you have a sibling in college, which will effectively half your expected family contribution. I know of friends who are in a similar situation as you and have had half or more of their tuition covered by need-based grants.

 

[SOMBound13]

Btw, this sentence is particularly interesting. You're essentially saying that since your $150k+ HH income can't comfortably afford to pay for medical school that you deserve need-based aid. So for the first time in your life mommy and daddy can't comfortably afford to give you what you want. I guess that means you are needy now.

If he hadn't used the word "comfortably," his point would still be valid. A family earning about $150k can't afford to pay $70k for medical school in most cases.

More importantly, they likely can't/won't pay anything since many parents have a "we'll help you with undergrad only" philosophy because there are other children or their retirement to consider. So, actually, such a student is as needy as the person whose family earns less.

 

[galaxyx]

If he hadn't used the word "comfortably," his point would still be valid. A family earning about $150k can't afford to pay $70k for medical school in most cases.

More importantly, they likely can't/won't pay anything since many parents have a "we'll help you with undergrad only" philosophy because there are other children or their retirement to consider. So, actually, such a student is as needy as the person whose family earns less.

 

[darkjedi]

More importantly, they likely can't/won't pay anything since many parents have a "we'll help you with undergrad only"
philosophy because there are other children or their retirement to consider.


So, actually, such a student is as needy as the person whose family earns less.

seriously? I don't even know where to begin

the amount of entitlement, of the people who's parents earn 100k+ saying they deserve financial aid as much as the person who's parents income are approaching the poverty line, is astonishing

Need-based aid is a gift to those who desperately need it

 

[Yorick]

MedPR

Ah, I mistook your post. I was arguing against living privileged with such an income which is what I thought you meant but i obviously read it hastily. Yes, I completely agree that is a privileged income.

 

[Yorick]

If he hadn't used the word "comfortably," his point would still be valid. A family earning about $150k can't afford to pay $70k for medical school in most cases.

More importantly, they likely can't/won't pay anything since many parents have a "we'll help you with undergrad only" philosophy because there are other children or their retirement to consider. So, actually, such a student is as needy as the person whose family earns less.

What I mean by " comfortably" is not taking on huge loans and being in debt for years to come after.

 

[SOMBound13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOMBound13
If you have 10 med students whose parents are earning between $40k-200k and none of the parents are contributing towards med school, then it could be argued that they all either need the same aid or that they all can afford the same loans. Once they're all earning doctors' salaries, why should the new doctors with $150k parents have HUGE loans, while those with $50k parents have little or no loans?

I'm sorry, but I have a very difficult time believing that reasoning. I don't see how you can justify giving equal amounts of money to a family earning 150k who is used to living in a two story 3 bedroom house in an area with good school districts over a family earning 40k who lives in single bedroom apartment an underserved neighborhood and troubled schools.

I'm not saying that is every family who earns 150k or every family who earns 40k, but cases such as these will inevitably happen. The degree to which a family earning 150k a year is 'unable' to contribute to their child's education is vastly different than a family earning 40k a year being 'unable' to contribute to their child's education.

As other posters have mentioned, those who have been raised in a middle to upper class family, while may feel like they are living life modestly, do not truly understand what it means to be from a lower-income family.

First of all, when giving aid to a medical student, the college isn't "giving money to the family." These students are usually 21+ and most parents don't really expect to be supporting them anymore. Our culture doesn't expect 21+ year olds to still be supported by parents - especially once thru undergrad.

I agree that a $150k family likely has the abiity to provide some level of support, likely more than a low income family can. The point, however, is that many provide very litte, so the "richer" student is essentially in the same boat as the "poorer" student. The small amount that the "richer" parents might provide wouldn't justify "no aid" to this student while providing huge aid to the "poorer student". After all, all the future doctors have the potential for high earnings later.

It's understandable that the thinking that affluent parents should pay for undergrad exists for undergrad, but that thinking needs to stop for med school unless the parents are truly affluent (say, earning $300k+).


The question of whether we understand what it means to be lower income or not is not relevant. We can assume that it is a difficult life. That doesn't change the fact that we're talking about future doctors. Every graduate has the potential for high earnings. Should some students from the same med school have to graduate with huge debt, while others have little, just because the school gifts the lower income student free money?

Can you imagine two former med school classmates in practice together. One has the uncomfortable burden to pay back $300k in med school debt while the other has little or none simply because the second one came from a low income family, while the other one came from a family that earns $140k and got little to no help? This is crazy since they both are earning a good income, but one is getting to enjoy it, while the other is not.

Again, this isn't the same situation as undergrad. That is different. It's unreasonable to expect families with incomes in the $100k-200k range to be contributing much (or lessening the debt need) of med students. These are the people that have just gone thru funding undergrad, and may still be doing so for younger children.


I think the difference is that at some point as we age, the income of your parents becomes irrelevant.
We don't tell an adult who is unemployed that they can't collect welfare or food stamps or whatever simply because they have affluent parents. At some age point, parent income is irrelevant. The exception for med school aid would be for the wealthy.

 

[SOMBound13]

the amount of entitlement, of the people who's parents earn 100k+ saying they deserve financial aid as much as the person who's parents income are approaching the poverty line, is astonishing

Actually, I don't think either deserves a whole bunch of free aid. This isn't undergrad. Both types have the potential of earning a lot of money as physicians, and both types have the same access for loans. I'm just saying that if free money is being given away, it can be argued that one student shouldn't be deemed as "doomed to big debt" simply because his parents earn $100k-200k.

 

[cwrig14]

There's a reason the majority of medical students come from families in the top fifth of the income bracket.
The 40k student (generally) endures financial struggles the 150k student couldn't fathom because he's never been exposed. Overcoming these obstacles, to me, is justifiable enough to deserve more need based aid.
OP, every situation is unique and we don't have an adequate understanding of your situation to draw any conclusions. Unfortunately for you, we live in a world of statistics and reason, neither of which favor your argument.

 

[SOMBound13]

$150k is top 5% and priveleged. You have more than 95% of the country

His PARENTS have more than 95% of the country. You're blurring boundaries.

You're assuming that 21+ year old med students have substantial (or any) access to their parents' money if the parents are earning $100k-200k. In most cases, these students have none.

I know that when I'm in med school, I won't have any access to my parents' money. They have other children to support and get thru undergrad, and that's where their obligation (logically) lies.

 

[MedPR]

His PARENTS have more than 95% of the country. You're blurring boundaries.

You're assuming that 21+ year old med students have substantial (or any) access to their parents' money if the parents are earning $100k-200k. In most cases, these students have none.

I know that when I'm in med school, I won't have any access to my parents' money. They have other children to support and get thru undergrad, and that's where their obligation (logically) lies.

Fair enough, but there's no way for the govt (or any loan-granting org) to know how much money parents are or are not giving to the student. Students from wealthy families have a resource that students from poor families don't. Whether or not they can access it is another issue altogether.

 

[SOMBound13]

His PARENTS have more than 95% of the country. You're blurring boundaries.

You're assuming that 21+ year old med students have substantial (or any) access to their parents' money if the parents are earning $100k-200k. In most cases, these students have none.

I know that when I'm in med school, I won't have any access to my parents' money. They have other children to support and get thru undergrad, and that's where their obligation (logically) lies.

Fair enough, but there's no way for the govt (or any loan-granting org) to know how much money parents are or are not giving to the student. Students from wealthy families have a resource that students from poor families don't. Whether or not they can access it is another issue altogether.

Why are you talking about "govt" or any loan granting orgn? The discussion is about free aid, not loans.

Anyway, there's no way to know whether anyone (rich or poor) has access to another source of money. A poor student could have affluent grandparents who are willing to help out. That's really not that unusual. A number of single parent mothers have parents who are relatively affluent.

The point is that because of the ages of med students, it's just not reasonable to expect parents who earn less than say $200k to contribute anything. At some point, parents who earn less than $200k expect their adult children to be self-supporting.

 

[MedPR]

Why are you talking about "govt" or any loan granting orgn? The discussion is about free aid, not loans.

Anyway, there's no way to know whether anyone (rich or poor) has access to another source of money. A poor student could have affluent grandparents who are willing to help out. That's really not that unusual. A number of single parent mothers have parents who are relatively affluent.

The point is that because of the ages of med students, it's just not reasonable to expect parents who earn less than say $200k to contribute anything. At some point, parents who earn less than $200k expect their adult children to be self-supporting.

Good point, idk why. I think we've gotten so far from the original question that I've confused myself.

People with parents making $150k most likely will not qualify for need based aid. There are lots of people with less parental income who should come first imo.

 

[IlDestriero]

The university can still elect to give you merit based aid, and they may have specific scholarships that you qualify for.
I had a military scholarship, and still got additional grant money from the school. It covered the difference between the scholarship amount and their cost of attendance estimate, including reimbursing me for the tax that was taken out of my stipend.
I didn't qualify for any need based aid.
There's always hope.

 

[NickNaylor]

Red text, gotcha.

Blue text...so, if I choose the "skip" (or whatever) option for parent's information, I can get need-based financial aid from the government, but X School of Medicine will not give me money? I thought the latter was merit based?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think this is a good question.

MedPR covered it, but as a general rule, yes, you will be disqualified for most institutional aid if you don't report your parents' income. There are exceptions to this (as with everything) and each school has its own policies so there is no universal answer about not reporting parent information. It is to your benefit to report it, though, so unless there's absolutely no way for you to get the info you should include it in your FAFSA. If you're unable to get it (for whatever reason), then you will need to get in touch with individual schools to see how to proceed. Some schools have no tolerance for not having this info. Keep in mind that this is generally for NEED-BASED aid, though it wouldn't surprise me for a school to require it even if you're receiving only merit aid.

As for the aid, there are many schools that offer need-based aid. These programs are typically very low interest (or in some cases no interest) loans and even grants. Each school offers different things though, so again this is something you would want to ask individual schools about.

 

[SOMBound13]

Originally Posted by EarthtoneJon
Red text, gotcha.

Blue text...so, if I choose the "skip" (or whatever) option for parent's information, I can get need-based financial aid from the government, but X School of Medicine will not give me money? I thought the latter was merit based?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think this is a good question.

"need based aid" from the gov't is only loans. No grants. So, you're not getting anything.

 

[SOMBound13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOMBound13
If he hadn't used the word "comfortably," his point would still be valid. A family earning about $150k can't afford to pay $70k for medical school in most cases.

More importantly, they likely can't/won't pay anything since many parents have a "we'll help you with undergrad only" philosophy because there are other children or their retirement to consider. So, actually, such a student is as needy as the person whose family earns less.

What I mean by " comfortably" is not taking on huge loans and being in debt for years to come after.

I wasn't responding to your post. I was responding to MedPR's post that used that word.

Unless parents with that income somehow managed to have a big college savings acct leftover after paying for undergrad (not likely), then the parents earning $100k-200k won't be funding much/anything for med school. That's why most med students have big loans. The med schools know this.

There's virtually no way (comfortably or uncomfortably) that a family earning $150k can pay large sums towards med school, and more likely, they're not paying any sums. The undergrad formula assumes that such a family paid for college using college savings, some current income, and some loans. The assumption is that undergrad was NOT paid for out of current income, because that would be unaffordable. Then comes med school....That family has already "done its job" for undergrad. It has emptied the college savings acct and it has Plus loans that they're paying off. Furthermore, they may have younger children that they're putting through college . The expectation of paying for med school is not reasonable considering how undegrad funding works.

 

[cwrig14]

I wasn't responding to your post. I was responding to MedPR's post that used that word.

Unless parents with that income somehow managed to have a big college savings acct leftover after paying for undergrad (not likely), then the parents earning $100k-200k won't be funding much/anything for med school. That's why most med students have big loans. The med schools know this.

There's virtually no way (comfortably or uncomfortably) that a family earning $150k can pay large sums towards med school, and more likely, they're not paying any sums. The undergrad formula assumes that such a family paid for college using college savings, some current income, and some loans. The assumption is that undergrad was NOT paid for out of current income, because that would be unaffordable. Then comes med school....That family has already "done its job" for undergrad. It has emptied the college savings acct and it has Plus loans that they're paying off. Furthermore, they may have younger children that they're putting through college . The expectation of paying for med school is not reasonable considering how undegrad funding works.

At least that family was able to "do its job" and help its child through undergrad. Families in the 40k income bracket are afforded no such opportunity.
And again, the everyday challenges the 40k student has to overcome are (GENERALLY) greater than that of the 150k student. Not the case for all, but holds true for the majority.

 

[AnthonyBourdain]

You forget that even if a medical student does not get assistance from heir parents most will likely inherit something when their parents pass away. Whether it be a house or life insurance. We all know of people who used money from a relative passing away to pay off student loans or a mortgage. They will have extra income coming beyond their earnings at some point in their lives.

On the other hand, the low income student who also did not receive help paying for medical school will likely be supporting their parents to some extent after graduation and will be left with little to no inheritance. There is no question, they will be paying the entire amount of their loans off through earnings.

Even if your parents don't help you out at all, the odds are you are probably going to get something somewhere down the line. There are financial benefits to having wealthy parents that we don't think about at this point in our lives.

 

[yellowfish]

You forget that even if a medical student does not get assistance from heir parents most will likely inherit something when their parents pass away. Whether it be a house or life insurance. We all know of people who used money from a relative passing away to pay off student loans or a mortgage. They will have extra income coming beyond their earnings at some point in their lives.

On the other hand, the low income student who also did not receive help paying for medical school will likely be supporting their parents to some extent after graduation and will be left with little to no inheritance. There is no question, they will be paying the entire amount of their loans off through earnings.

Even if your parents don't help you out at all, the odds are you are probably going to get something somewhere down the line. There are financial benefits to having wealthy parents that we don't think about at this point in our lives.

This is a good point to make as well.

In the end, institutions have a finite amount of money to distribute to students. Is there a better way to distribute the grants than using financial information of the student and the financial information of the student's parents? I don't think so. They have to allocate the money somehow, and the most equitable way, even if it isn't so equitable, is to give the money to less affluent families first. Yes, middle-income families do get shafted by the system and students in these families may very well end up graduating with more debt than students in the lower income bracket. If schools end up allocating more money to financial grants, then middle-income families will be the next ones in line to receive this funding.

 

[AxiomaticTruth]

At least that family was able to "do its job" and help its child through undergrad. Families in the 40k income bracket are afforded no such opportunity.
And again, the everyday challenges the 40k student has to overcome are (GENERALLY) greater than that of the 150k student. Not the case for all, but holds true for the majority.

Problem with that though is how many 40k students get completely free rides through undergrad, or at least heavily discounted rates, as compared to 150k students? The 150k student does not receive any financial aid outside of a few very small subsidized loans. With 3 children going through undergrad at roughly the same time, that's 20k * 3 per year for 4 years for the local state school. 60k per year is practically med school rates. The 40k student with two siblings probably gets all free rides through UG, and now people are arguing for a free ride through medical school even though both 40k and 150k students don't really have access to money.

It's the classic problem of being middle class: too rich for any substantial assistance; too poor to avoid crippling loans.

Plus it's the PARENTS making that money; why is it fair for the 150k student to take out loans while the 50k student to be granted a free ride, when both of them are broke ass students? Sure the 50k student might have a slightly worse laptop or live in a slightly worse neighborhood during medical school, but it's not like the 150k student is sleeping on a bed made up of 100k worth of dollar bills.

 

[galaxyx]

There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

 

[SOMBound13]

Even if your parents don't help you out at all, the odds are you are probably going to get something somewhere down the line. There are financial benefits to having wealthy parents that we don't think about at this point in our lives.

Enough with the black or white thinking. This is not a WEALTHY vs POOR discussion. I think everyone understands that the children of WEALTHY parents shouldn't get need based aid.

There's a whole bunch of students that fall into the area that is between poor and wealthy. Parents who are earning between $100k - 200k are NOT wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore, many of those families may not have been earning that much for very long.

Oh, and many children of low income families inherit as well. Many of this country's low-income own their homes. My great uncle was a custodian his whole life. He never even earned $10 per hour. When he retired, his top rate was about $7 an hour.. Only had an 8th grade education. He owned his own home. When he passed, the home was sold for $600k. If he had had any kids (he didn't) his chldren who had been raised in a low income home would have inherited a chunk.

 

[sazerac]

There's a whole bunch of students that fall into the area that is between poor and wealthy. Parents who are earning between $100k - 200k are NOT wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

In 2010, per capita income for the state of Alabama was $22,984.

While I think grants for medical school tuition are a dubious use of resources (students have a 98.5% chance of earning $100k - $200k or more within a decade), grants do exist. Some of the grants are based on financial need, and some of those "need-based" grants go to students who would have graduated without student loans anyway.

That's just life.

 

[MedPR]

Parents who are earning between $100k - 200k are NOT wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

Lol you're funny. Let me guess. Your parents make about that (or more) but don't buy Ferraris therefore they are not wealthy.


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[cwrig14]

There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

This.

 

[cwrig14]

Parents who are earning between $100k - 200k are NOT wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[darkjedi]

There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

thank you

 

[MedPR]

There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

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[SOMBound13]

I wasn't responding to your post. I was responding to MedPR's post that used that word.

Unless parents with that income somehow managed to have a big college savings acct leftover after paying for undergrad (not likely), then the parents earning $100k-200k won't be funding much/anything for med school. That's why most med students have big loans. The med schools know this.

There's virtually no way (comfortably or uncomfortably) that a family earning $150k can pay large sums towards med school, and more likely, they're not paying any sums. The undergrad formula assumes that such a family paid for college using college savings, some current income, and some loans. The assumption is that undergrad was NOT paid for out of current income, because that would be unaffordable. Then comes med school....That family has already "done its job" for undergrad. It has emptied the college savings acct and it has Plus loans that they're paying off. Furthermore, they may have younger children that they're putting through college . The expectation of paying for med school is not reasonable considering how undegrad funding works.

At least that family was able to "do its job" and help its child through undergrad. Families in the 40k income bracket are afforded no such opportunity.
And again, the everyday challenges the 40k student has to overcome are (GENERALLY) greater than that of the 150k student. Not the case for all, but holds true for the majority.

Actually, a low-income student who has what it takes to be eventually med school bound likely has the stats to get plenty of aid. So, yes, in many cases, his family is afforded the opportunity.

Look at Calif. If you're low income and going to a UC, then you get Blue and Gold promise (which covers AT LEAST tuition), Cal Grant, a Pell Grant, maybe SEOG, other aid, etc. The family isn't expected to really pay anything. I've seen enough O EFC aid pkgs to UCs to know this.

In NY, the SUNYs' cost is so low that a low income student can cover costs with Pell, TAP, and the other aid the school gives.

The low income students who seem to face the biggest financial challenges college-wise, are usually the ones who don't have the stats to get into the better schools or don't live in states with "state aid" to supplement fed aid.

 

[SOMBound13]

There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

EFC only splits that way at FAFSA only schools. At CSS schools the split isn't like that. If you have 2 in college, the split is 60/60 because there is an expectation that with more in college a family SHOULD pay more.

Then again, at FAFSA-only schools, EFC can be meaningless once you're beyond Pell. So, YES, a family with a split EFC with 3 in college couild end up spending 3 times $24k.

Most schools do not have much aid to give. Most can't meet need. If you have 3 children attending your state school which costs $25k each and your EFC for each child is $10k, then it's very likely that you're not going to get ONE DOLLAR of grant money. You might get some merit money if they have high stats. But, if all 3 of your kids have mid-range stats, then likely each aid pkg will only include a $5500 Stafford loan. So, that split made no difference really.


And, no, EFC is not based on "disposable income." It's based on AGI.

 

[Praefectus]

Lol wealth is a relative term. If you're making $250k AGI and you're spending $230k a year, you're only saving 8% of your income. If you bring in 80k and you're saving the same amount, that's a 25% savings rate.

Not to sound cocky, but my parents generate enough income and are frugal enough to save/invest 80-85% each year after tax management.

 

[darkjedi]

EFC only splits that way at FAFSA only schools. At CSS schools the split isn't like that. If you have 2 in college, the split is 60/60 because there is an expectation that with more in college a family SHOULD pay more.

Then again, at FAFSA-only schools, EFC can be meaningless once you're beyond Pell. So, YES, a family with a split EFC with 3 in college couild end up spending 3 times $24k.

Most schools do not have much aid to give. Most can't meet need. If you have 3 children attending your state school which costs $25k each and your EFC for each child is $10k, then it's very likely that you're not going to get ONE DOLLAR of grant money. You might get some merit money if they have high stats. But, if all 3 of your kids have mid-range stats, then likely each aid pkg will only include a $5500 Stafford loan. So, that split made no difference really.


And, no, EFC is not based on "disposable income." It's based on AGI.

Most medical schools don't use FAFSA or CSS for internal need-based financial aid calculations, but rather their own metrics.

 

[galaxyx]

E


And, no, EFC is not based on "disposable income." It's based on AGI.

Actually, its based on "Adjusted Available Income", which is a percentage AGI minus a bunch of allowances for costs of living including taxes paid, saving for retirement, etc. So, it is a percentage of income beyond what is required to live, which I simplified as disposable, because, if its not a necessity, it's disposable. Just because someone is paying $4000/month on a mortgage, doesn't make that expense a necessity.

 

[SOMBound13]

Originally Posted by galaxyx
There seems to be a complete misconception here about how need based financial aid actually works. Each family is expected to contribute a percentage of their DISPOSABLE income towards their children's education. This amount of contribution doesn't go up or down based on how many students are in school. I used 100,000 as an example before, so that family would be expected to contribute $24,000 towards tution. If they have one child in school, that's 24,000 towards that one. If two children in school, it's 12,000 towards each child. If 3 children, 8,000 towards each. It is in no case 24,000 towards each child. Now, schools have a lot of options of how they disburse any need beyond the 24,000, whether it be loans, or grants, or whatever and largely depends on the resources of the school.
And, $40,000 a year income does have some family contribution though its around $2000.
Need based aid isn't about a philosophical discussion on whether adults over 21 should or should not get assistance from their families, it's about whether the family has the resources to help the student or not. Anyone saying that someone making $150K a year has the same "disposable" income of someone making $40K a year is completely dilusional. After tax that's about $120K and 36K, so the family after taxes still earns 80K more in a year..

EFC only splits that way at FAFSA only schools. At CSS schools the split isn't like that. If you have 2 in college, the split is 60/60 because there is an expectation that with more in college a family SHOULD pay more.

Then again, at FAFSA-only schools, EFC can be meaningless once you're beyond Pell. So, YES, a family with a split EFC with 3 in college couild end up spending 3 times $24k.

Most schools do not have much aid to give. Most can't meet need. If you have 3 children attending your state school which costs $25k each and your EFC for each child is $10k, then it's very likely that you're not going to get ONE DOLLAR of grant money. You might get some merit money if they have high stats. But, if all 3 of your kids have mid-range stats, then likely each aid pkg will only include a $5500 Stafford loan. So, that split made no difference really.


.

Most medical schools don't use FAFSA or CSS for internal need-based financial aid calculations, but rather their own metrics.

for this part of the discussion, we weren't talking about med schools. We were talking about how EFC splits with multiples in undergrad.

 

[SOMBound13]

Originally Posted by SOMBound13
There's a whole bunch of students that fall into the area that is between poor and wealthy. Parents who are earning between $100k - 200k are NOT wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

In 2010, per capita income for the state of Alabama was $22,984.

While I think grants for medical school tuition are a dubious use of resources (students have a 98.5% chance of earning $100k - $200k or more within a decade), grants do exist. Some of the grants are based on financial need, and some of those "need-based" grants go to students who would have graduated without student loans anyway.

That's just life.

Should I back at you? Do you know what "per capital" means? It means income "per person". So, a family of 5 earning $115k would fit right in that per capita income stat.

Families with $100k-200k incomes are not wealthy. They are certainly comfortable, but they are not wealthy. And, again, those earning that much with school-aged children typically have not been earning that much all along. After years and years of raises and promotions and maybe "mom" returns to work full time after part-time work (or no work) while the children were young, their income has finally hit those amounts..

That said, I fully agree with your last point about grants being given to students who will soon be making 6 figure incomes. But, I think the effort should be made to reduce all med school debt.

 

[MedPR]

Should I back at you? Do you know what "per capital" means? It means income "per person". So, a family of 5 earning $115k would fit right in that per capita income stat.

Families with $100k-200k incomes are not wealthy. They are certainly comfortable, but they are not wealthy. And, again, those earning that much with school-aged children typically have not been earning that much all along. After years and years of raises and promotions and maybe "mom" returns to work full time after part-time work (or no work) while the children were young, their income has finally hit those amounts..

Since this will turn into a debate about when comfortable becomes wealthy we should all just agree to disagree.

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[SOMBound13]

Since this will turn into a debate about when comfortable becomes wealthy we should all just agree to disagree.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

While the definition of "wealthy" might not be firm, it shouldn't be hard to agree with the concept that wealth has a lot to do with net worth. Income alone can't define it unless you're talking about incomes that are much higher than $200k.

Some areas in various states have very high costs of living. There's no escaping that issue because that's where those peoples' jobs are located. If they lived in cheaper regions/towns, the high salary jobs wouldn't be available. These families may be earning $150k per year, but with taxes (state, federal, property, etc) and unavoidable high housing, transportation, and other costs, their incomes don't leave them with a lot of discretionary income.

 

[MedPR]

While the definition of "wealthy" might not be firm, it shouldn't be hard to agree with the concept that wealth has a lot to do with net worth. Income alone can't define it unless you're talking about incomes that are much higher than $200k.

Some areas in various states have very high costs of living. There's no escaping that issue because that's where those peoples' jobs are located. If they lived in cheaper regions/towns, the high salary jobs wouldn't be available. These families may be earning $150k per year, but with taxes (state, federal, property, etc) and unavoidable high housing, transportation, and other costs, their incomes don't leave them with a lot of discretionary income.

Like I said. Agree to disagree.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[BigBear123]

Some areas in various states have very high costs of living. There's no escaping that issue because that's where those peoples' jobs are located. If they lived in cheaper regions/towns, the high salary jobs wouldn't be available. These families may be earning $150k per year, but with taxes (state, federal, property, etc) and unavoidable high housing, transportation, and other costs, their incomes don't leave them with a lot of discretionary income.

Yeah, this describes my situation exactly. My parents' industry is dominant in this area, but not really elsewhere. Our house is among the cheapest in the market here and it's pretty minimal. If we lived somewhere like TX I know that would not be the case. I'm just crossing my fingers now that one of the schools that accepted me will pity me with some grant money.