Need clarification on CaRMS policy...

[HerbalPlz]

So this is what I found on the CaRMS website for Ontario http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml#ontario:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR USMGs - Please Note: As of February 2010, USMGs must complete the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examinations Parts 1 and 2 (MCCQE 1 & 2) order to qualify for an Independent Practice certificate in Ontario. USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 ARE considered acceptable alternatives to the MCCQE 1 & 2 for purposes of applying for residency training in Ontario but will mean that the candidate cannot obtain an Independent Practice certificate from the CPSO directly after residency and RCPSC/CFPC certification. Rather, they will be required to apply for a restricted certificate of registration to practice medicine in Ontario, practice with a mentor/supervisor for at least one year, and successfully complete an assessment before obtaining an Independent Practice certificate. The CPSO policy on Acceptable Qualifying Exams can be reviewed at http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1640

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So my understanding is that you need to do USMLE Step 3 to be considered for Ontario residencies? I thought Step 3 was done after graduating from med school, during 1st year residency?

And all that stuff about 1 year with mentor/supervisor...do the residency years count for this 1 year requirement? Or do you finish your residency, and then get supervised again?

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[Giemsa]

So this is what I found on the CaRMS website for Ontario http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml#ontario:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR USMGs - Please Note: As of February 2010, USMGs must complete the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examinations Parts 1 and 2 (MCCQE 1 & 2) order to qualify for an Independent Practice certificate in Ontario. USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 ARE considered acceptable alternatives to the MCCQE 1 & 2 for purposes of applying for residency training in Ontario but will mean that the candidate cannot obtain an Independent Practice certificate from the CPSO directly after residency and RCPSC/CFPC certification. Rather, they will be required to apply for a restricted certificate of registration to practice medicine in Ontario, practice with a mentor/supervisor for at least one year, and successfully complete an assessment before obtaining an Independent Practice certificate. The CPSO policy on Acceptable Qualifying Exams can be reviewed at http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1640

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So my understanding is that you need to do USMLE Step 3 to be considered for Ontario residencies? I thought Step 3 was done after graduating from med school, during 1st year residency?

And all that stuff about 1 year with mentor/supervisor...do the residency years count for this 1 year requirement? Or do you finish your residency, and then get supervised again?

If you want to apply for residency in Canada, plan to do the MCCQE Part I and Part II. Otherwise, you will NOT be eligible for full independent licensure in Ontario (and generally speaking, not eligible at all anywhere else).

You can try and squeak through with a restricted license, but be aware that:

a) Ontario can change the rules at any time between now and your applying for a job and shut you out

b) Ontario doesn't HAVE to give you a restricted license (it's entirely at their discretion to make this exception) whereas if a fully qualified applicant walked through the door it would be very hard to refuse to license them (because they're fully qualified)

c) there is, as you point out, a period of supervision (?12 to 18 months) with some sort of evaluation at the end that you must pass after being conditionally licensed . . . no, residency does not count

d) you must have Step III to make this work

My understanding is that you can do MCCQE Part I during the early part of your residency, so that you are ready to do Part II with your co-residents early in your second year. Call the residency program that you're interested in to double check you don't need the Part I upfront, and can do it during R1. Really, it's dumb to graduate from a Canadian residency program and end up with a restricted, conditional license.

 

[HerbalPlz]

Thanks Giemsa, in general...when do most Canadians end up taking MCCQE Part 1?

Is it feasible to study/write Part 1 at the same time as Step 1? Will I be going through med school thinking, "I hate studying for Step 1...and then I'll have to study for MCCQE Part 1 too, this sucks" or will it be along the lines of "I hate studying for Step 1...thankfully Part 1 is very similar and I don't have to study too much more," ?

It seems kind of weird to do Step 1 during/end of MS2, and then do MCCQE Part 1 three years later during R1. I agree it is quite stupid, but I am fond of Canada...and with all the **** that's happening with the US health care system...ugh, rather avoid it and just come back to cozy Canada.

Thanks, and from reading CaRMS...it seems like it's only in Ontario where they have this restricted, conditional license. At least according to the CaRMS site, all other provinces seem like they'll take USMLE no problem and do not specify that they need to be done in before residency or anything. Last question...the MCCQE is just pass/fail yes? Even for US med school grads, the actual doesn't matter as much as Step 1 marks, if I'm understanding correctly?

 

[Giemsa]

Thanks Giemsa, in general...when do most Canadians end up taking MCCQE Part 1?

I was a CMG (a while ago) . . . we took it in ?April of our fourth year.

Is it feasible to study/write Part 1 at the same time as Step 1? Will I be going through med school thinking, "I hate studying for Step 1...and then I'll have to study for MCCQE Part 1 too, this sucks" or will it be along the lines of "I hate studying for Step 1...thankfully Part 1 is very similar and I don't have to study too much more," ?

Have to let someone else answer that . . . I never took the Steps.

At least according to the CaRMS site, all other provinces seem like they'll take USMLE no problem and do not specify that they need to be done in before residency or anything.

You've got it backwards. Ontario is the only province that makes an exception; the other provinces don't mention it because they officially don't accept the USMLEs for licensure. In general, your Canadian residency program expects you to do the MCCQEs during residency . . . and you'd be crazy not to.

Last question...the MCCQE is just pass/fail yes?

You get a score, but as long as you "pass" no one cares. For all intents and purposes, it's pass / fail. You have to remember, for CMGs we don't have our MCCQE Part I score until AFTER we've matched. So as long as you pass . . . it's all good.

Landing a residency spot in Canada (as a CMG) is all about:
1) doing electives
2) blowing them away at your elective
3) having great LOR

Stuff like test scores, class placement and research only come into play if you're after something uber-competitive (plastics, ophtho, ENT, etc.)

Finally, make very sure that you apply in the US, too. In 2011, the likelihood of matching in a Canadian residency program as a US grad was ~63%*; the match rate for US seniors into an American residency program was 94%.

*This is the optimistic number. It doesn't include the applicants who didn't submit rank order lists for a variety of reasons (took US pre-matches, didn't get any interviews in Canada, etc. etc.)

 

[HerbalPlz]

Thanks for posts Giemsa, I've already bookmarked this to check again in 3-4 years when it comes time to apply

You've got it backwards. Ontario is the only province that makes an exception; the other provinces don't mention it because they officially don't accept the USMLEs for licensure. In general, your Canadian residency program expects you to do the MCCQEs during residency . . . and you'd be crazy not to.

Oh yes, I understand this. I think I worded what I meant to ask wrong...
In terms of applying to residency programs, it seems like Ontario is the only one that says you have to have USMLE 1,2,3 or MCCQE 1,2 to just apply for residency. If I get into a Canadian residency, I fully plan on having both MCCQE 1 and 2 by the time I finish the residency, BUT as you said, MCCQE 1 is done by end of 4th year, and I assume MCCQE 2 is done during Residency. I have no problem with this, but then in terms of applying to Residency in Ontario, this 1 line bugs me:

"USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 ARE considered acceptable alternatives to the MCCQE 1 & 2 for purposes of applying for residency training in Ontario."

What relevance is MCCQE 2 in terms of applying for residency in Ontario? If most CMGs do MCCQE 2 during residency, how does it make sense to have MCCQE 2 done by the time you are applying for residency?

Also, I do plan on applying to US residency programs...but it will be a backup and I have no choice. The CaRMS match date is earlier than the US NRMP match date and, as I'm sure you already know, if an applicant gets matched in CaRMS, they're taken off the US list. So no matter what, if I choose to apply to Canada and I have a good chance of getting matched, then Canada will be my primary goal with US as a fallback.

Thanks again! Much appreciated. I know you and many others have probably answered these questions before, so I apologize for pestering. But if it helps at all, I can make a compilation of all the questions I asked here and asked to med school and all their answers.

 

[Giemsa]

In terms of applying to residency programs, it seems like Ontario is the only one that says you have to have USMLE 1,2,3 or MCCQE 1,2 to just apply for residency.

I think the way they've phrased this is confusing. I can't believe that they expect applicants trained in the US to have USMLEs 1-3 or MCCQEs 1&2 prior to starting residency.

Definitely give the program you're interested in a call to confirm, but I think what they're saying is that "hey, we [the residency program] won't make you take the MCCQEs during residency if you've got your USMLEs 1-3 but beware! the College of Physicians and Surgeons won't give you unrestricted licensure without them".

They're trying to help you by warning you that just your USMLEs aren't going to cut it down the road . . . you need the MCCQEs. But it reads confusing.

Of course, information has a best-before date . . . in 3-4 years, all of this may have changed.

 

[HerbalPlz]

I think the way they've phrased this is confusing. I can't believe that they expect applicants trained in the US to have USMLEs 1-3 or MCCQEs 1&2 prior to starting residency.

Definitely give the program you're interested in a call to confirm, but I think what they're saying is that "hey, we [the residency program] won't make you take the MCCQEs during residency if you've got your USMLEs 1-3 but beware! the College of Physicians and Surgeons won't give you unrestricted licensure without them".

They're trying to help you by warning you that just your USMLEs aren't going to cut it down the road . . . you need the MCCQEs. But it reads confusing.

Of course, information has a best-before date . . . in 3-4 years, all of this may have changed.

Yep I thought the way they phrased it was slightly confusing as well.

Now all that's left to find out is how feasible it would be to do Step 1+2 and MCCQE 1 all before starting residency.

Thanks for your help Giemsa, and like you said, I'll probably call and find out all this once I'm in med school and the policies are current.

Do you know where to find news about policy changes like this? Or do you just check the CaRMS once a year or so?

 

[Giemsa]

Do you know where to find news about policy changes like this? Or do you just check the CaRMS once a year or so?

Check Carms in the fall for the latest up to date info.

 

[HerbalPlz]

Check Carms in the fall for the latest up to date info.

Great, thanks a lot!

 

[jnuts]

US MD medical grads apply to CaRMS in the same stream as Canadian graduates in their final year of medical school. If you've done any post-graduate training in the US or Canada you cannot apply for first round spots; but I'm assuming from your psots that's not your case.

If you're applying in your final year of medical school Canadian programs do not expect you to have any standardized test results. Canadians do not write their MCC QE1 until after they've been admitted to a residency program so that score is not used to make admissions decisions. If you've taken the USMLE 1 or 2 you can add that score to your Canadian application but it's not required and programs may or may not look at it. Neither MCC exam is required to begin (or finish for that matter) residency.

The MCC exams are only for licensing and have nothing to do with either the specialty board (the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada) or the family practice board (the College of Family Physicians of Canada). In fact you can get a specialty certificate in Canada without writing the MCC exams--except the EE if you're a graduate of a school outside the US or Canada. For example, fellows don't write the MCC exams. But you cannot be registered to practice independantly by the provincial medical board (e.g the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario) without taking the MCC exams.

It makes no sense to study for Step 1 and the QE1 at the same time as the QE1 material is equivallent to the Step 2. There is no Canadian exam which focuses on the pre-clinical basic sciences like the Step 1. The QE2 is roughly equivallent to the Step 3.

All of the muck about not needing to take the MCC exams if you've done the USMLEs is really for senior doctors practicing in the States who want to return to Canada without taking the exams as part of the repatriation program. Its really not applicable to prospective residents.

Here's the bottom line: if you're a US medical graduate in final year applying to CaRMS and ERAS you do not need to take any Canadian exams. If you're any other type of IMG in final med you must write the EE.
If you end up in a Canadian residency you can write the QE1 in the fall of R-1. Writing late has NO impact on your residency. If you really want to, you can write the QE1 in the Spring of final med with all the Canadians but you may need to look into registering in Jan. or Feb. before the match even happens.

Great, thanks a lot!

 

[HerbalPlz]

Excellent post jnuts, great advice there. When you say "If you've done any post-graduate training in the US or Canada you cannot apply for first round spots" I assume you mean any post-medical school training right? Not like Post-Bacc. stuff?

That MCC clarification really helps a lot, thanks. Here's to hoping in 3-5 years, the policies you wrote don't change!

 

[drctother]

Excellent post jnuts, great advice there. When you say "If you've done any post-graduate training in the US or Canada you cannot apply for first round spots" I assume you mean any post-medical school training right? Not like Post-Bacc. stuff?

That MCC clarification really helps a lot, thanks. Here's to hoping in 3-5 years, the policies you wrote don't change!

Hey random question... what school are you at? Im also a Canadian in the US too for med school. There is 7 Canadians in my first year class lol (although several are dual citizen). Also what year of your program you in?

I am in the same boat. I want to return to Canada for residency and avoid getting stuck in the US Health Care system, which as Im sure you are well aware of, is a disaster. I counting down the days until I can do elective rotations back in Canada.

Do you know anything about ROTATIONS in Canada as a US medical student?! I was wondering how hard they are to obtain VS say if you were a Caribbean student

 

[HerbalPlz]

Hey random question... what school are you at? Im also a Canadian in the US too for med school. There is 7 Canadians in my first year class lol (although several are dual citizen). Also what year of your program you in?

I am in the same boat. I want to return to Canada for residency and avoid getting stuck in the US Health Care system, which as Im sure you are well aware of, is a disaster. I counting down the days until I can do elective rotations back in Canada.

Do you know anything about ROTATIONS in Canada as a US medical student?! I was wondering how hard they are to obtain VS say if you were a Caribbean student

I graduated from undergrad just this past June. I'm not a dual citizen unfortunately...really sucks I'm considered an international applicant at every med school

I've read up a lot on obtaining rotations. It doesn't seem hard to get rotations, you just need to apply EARLY. Like if a 4th year student was starting his rotation in September, they should be applying in February or earlier? I don't know, I may have my dates wrong...I just know, the moment you can apply for away rotations, you should. This is true for almost everything, though.

I haven't come across anyone saying if away rotations are harder for Canadians in US med schools to land. Maybe someone else reading this can chime in?

 

[Optoed]

what is the regulatory organization for fellowships? Is it CaRMs also? I have some questions about doing residency in the states and then possibly fellowship in Canada.

 

[jnuts]

yes, I meant medical post-graduate training.

 

[Blitz2006]

so here's my question (sorry if I'm thread jacking)

As an IMG, I am now a final year medical student applying to CaRMs. I'm done with EE, and I'm submitting my application next week.

Lets say I happen to match in March, 2012.

Do I have to have QE1 done before I start residency in July, 2012, like the rest of Canadians? Or can I do QE1 during R-1 or R-2?

Just wondering if I should register this week for May 2012 QE1...

I also heard that for Manitoba, it helps your application for CaRMs if they see that IMG as registered for QE1...true?

Thx!

 

[drctother]

so here's my question (sorry if I'm thread jacking)

As an IMG, I am now a final year medical student applying to CaRMs. I'm done with EE, and I'm submitting my application next week.

Lets say I happen to match in March, 2012.

Do I have to have QE1 done before I start residency in July, 2012, like the rest of Canadians? Or can I do QE1 during R-1 or R-2?

Just wondering if I should register this week for May 2012 QE1...

I also heard that for Manitoba, it helps your application for CaRMs if they see that IMG as registered for QE1...true?

Thx!

Are you planning to do electives in Canada?/ Did you already do some? Im just curious

You fine sir/madam need to let us know how it works out, as I will be in your shoes in 3 years (although i am a US-MG, not an IMG). Also, are you a Caribbean grad?

 

[jnuts]

You don't need to have passed the QE1 to get your training license from the CPSO, therefore you can start residency without it. I have no idea about if that's true outside of Ontario.