Need help for premed path for unusual HS background

[catdaddy777]

I am the dad of a HS student who is planning to go premed. We are in process of trying to determine the best route for him based on his somewhat unusual HS background. This is all new to me so any advice would be appreciated.

He is currently a HS Junior at an Early College High School This is a public HS that requires interviews, applications etc. His 9th and 10th grade classes were all Honors plus 6 AP classes. His 11th and 12th grade classes his is enrolled full time in regular college classes at a Liberal Arts College in our city.

For example this semester he is taking regular college Multi Variable Calc, Chem I, psychology, computer programming. Next semester will be English, Chem II, spanish, etc.

Current UW GPA is 3.97 (this includes 4.0 in his classes this semester which is almost a certainty)

He will graduate HS with 2 years of college classes plus his AP classes and would like to apply as much of this as possible toward premed and apply to med school as soon as possible (not my preference but his).

What possible college premed programs might look favorably on this situation and allow him to use the college credits he is taking while in HS?

Any suggestions on other options we are not considering?
Thanks.

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[link2swim06]

A few things I can think of....

IMHO it is best to retake science classes in unless got actually college credit (not AP credit). I say this for two reasons, some med schools do not except AP credit and also he will need a good GPA (retaking courses he already knows should help yield that GPA).

Second if he is in rush to get into med school (which I don't advice, it is nice to have the whole college experience) he can apply to a B.S. / MD pathways. Basically it reduces the total years of study by 1-2 years. I am a college senior going to med school next year and I can say I am so glad I got all 4 years of college.

If he is searching for a college I would suggest him going somewhere that he will like, is low cost (after scholarships), and he can get good grades at.

Hope that helps.

 

[MilkmanAl]

If he's dead set on getting into med school ASAP, the combined programs would be the best way to go. I personally feel that those programs are an unwise choice since, really, no high schooler is going to be able to say with certainty that he wants to practice medicine. If he's going to fast-track things, though, he might as well do it the smart way that lets him dispense with most of the BS that med school application requires.

If I were you, I'd encourage him to read what I and others have posted about getting into and through med school as quickly as possible. It might not change his mind, but at least he'll have the other side of the argument from a lot of different sources not called "dad."

edit: Oops, forgot to actually answer the questions.

What possible college premed programs might look favorably on this situation and allow him to use the college credits he is taking while in HS?

I would imagine that just about every school will accept his college courses as transfer credit towards a degree. Most colleges accept AP credit in some fashion. I'm way out of the college application ballgame, but I have to imagine that taking a bunch of advanced courses and excelling in them is a good thing universally. When your son applies to med school, he will need to submit transcripts from the college(s) he has taken courses at and his undergrad school.

Any suggestions on other options we are not considering?

The BS/MD programs discussed above are probably his best bets. Failing that, I second link2swim's comment:

If he is searching for a college I would suggest him going somewhere that he will like, is low cost (after scholarships), and he can get good grades at.

Undergrad prestige is a very small part of med school candidacy. It does matter a little bit but not nearly as much as grades do. Combining low cost with ease of classes is the ideal situation.

 

[2010houston]

This is actually a great situation - it will probably end up giving your son a lot of options!

I will disagree a bit with the previous poster - I think whether or not you retake AP classes depends on the individual. I had about 1 year of college credit from mine, and did not retake any. If he's getting a great education in HS and has good teachers, a rigorous AP class should be equivalent to a college class. And he'll probably end up taking upper level science courses in college, either in the first two years or later, that med schools will take in addition to the AP credit. I didn't have any problems with this during my applications.

So what do most people from this HS do for college - do they transfer in directly as juniors, or end up taking 3 years to graduate once they transfer? Do they go to colleges all over? I would guess that, given the ever-stricter course requirements at each undergrad school, he'd probably still have to do three years. And this is a good thing - it will give him enough time to build up the required extracurricular activities, volunteering, and research that are an essential part of a med school application. Regardless, he should try to go to the best college that he gets into and enjoys and can afford

Good luck with everything!

 

[catdaddy777]

One thing to note that makes his situation a bit different is that all of his Junior and Senior year classes are not AP, they are regular college classes from a liberal arts college. So his Calc 3, Chemistry, Physics, etc are all college classes. He is considering taking Organic next year but hasnt decided yet. I point all this out because I'm not sure how this impacts how med schools may look at this.

This is actually a great situation - it will probably end up giving your son a lot of options!

I will disagree a bit with the previous poster - I think whether or not you retake AP classes depends on the individual. I had about 1 year of college credit from mine, and did not retake any. If he's getting a great education in HS and has good teachers, a rigorous AP class should be equivalent to a college class. And he'll probably end up taking upper level science courses in college, either in the first two years or later, that med schools will take in addition to the AP credit. I didn't have any problems with this during my applications.

So what do most people from this HS do for college - do they transfer in directly as juniors, or end up taking 3 years to graduate once they transfer? Do they go to colleges all over? I would guess that, given the ever-stricter course requirements at each undergrad school, he'd probably still have to do three years. And this is a good thing - it will give him enough time to build up the required extracurricular activities, volunteering, and research that are an essential part of a med school application. Regardless, he should try to go to the best college that he gets into and enjoys and can afford

Good luck with everything!

 

[2010houston]

One thing to note that makes his situation a bit different is that all of his Junior and Senior year classes are not AP, they are regular college classes from a liberal arts college. So his Calc 3, Chemistry, Physics, etc are all college classes. He is considering taking Organic next year but hasnt decided yet. I point all this out because I'm not sure how this impacts how med schools may look at this.

Right. So the main issues would be -
1) Will his undergrad institution accept all this credit? I'm assuming he's not planning to continue at the same LAC he's getting the credit from now, which would make this a moot point obviously. But in transferring credit, you often lose some. This would be a good thing to talk to school alumni and/or the HS counselor about.
2) Would the med schools accept it? Yes, assuming this is an accredited LAC that the credits are coming from; this shouldn't be an issue at all - he has college course transcripts from a college; they will be accepted and applied to his cGPA.

 

[link2swim06]

Right. So the main issues would be -
1) Will his undergrad institution accept all this credit? I'm assuming he's not planning to continue at the same LAC he's getting the credit from now, which would make this a moot point obviously. But in transferring credit, you often lose some. This would be a good thing to talk to school alumni and/or the HS counselor about.
2) Would the med schools accept it? Yes, assuming this is an accredited LAC that the credits are coming from; this shouldn't be an issue at all - he has college course transcripts from a college; they will be accepted and applied to his cGPA.

My point was I seen some med school want actual graded college credit rather than just AP credit. Of course if he is a science major the upper level classes would likely count towards this requirement but he is a non-science major JUST having AP credit will cause problems IMHO.

Also many colleges offer honors versions of courses, I took honors gen chem after having AP credit, it was still hard considering nearly everyone else in the room had AP credit too.

 

[sgtbrushes]

Sir, first let me tell you that your son sounds brilliant. Something that I don't think has been covered is MCAT/ MCAT preparation. I'm not sure exactly what courses he has taken in high school, but if he wants to get into med school ASAP, he will need to complete 2 semsesters each of:

English
Biology w/ lab
Chemistry w/ lab
Organic Chemistry w/ lab
Physics w/ lab

After he has taken this, he will need to study for and take the MCAT. (While it is possible to take the MCAT before completing these courses, it is inefficient). If he is done with 2 years' worth of college when he is 18, he could be on track to matriculate to med school when he is 20.

Not that you asked for it, but there is a book, On Call: A Doctor's Days and Nights in Residency. It is written by Dr. Emily Transue, who graduated college at 20 and med school at 24. Past that, there isn't a whole lot of relevance for your situation, but it's a pretty good read, and something to keep on the burner for 6 years or so from now if you want to know what your son is going through during residency.

 

[SocialistMD]

One thing to note that makes his situation a bit different is that all of his Junior and Senior year classes are not AP, they are regular college classes from a liberal arts college. So his Calc 3, Chemistry, Physics, etc are all college classes. He is considering taking Organic next year but hasnt decided yet. I point all this out because I'm not sure how this impacts how med schools may look at this.

This sounds a lot like the TAMS program in Texas. The nice thing for your son is that most of those kids can write their ticket to any college in the country. He will start nearly 2 years ahead of everyone else at baseline. He needs to find a college that accepts his course credits; after that, he can pretty much choose based on how much he likes the campus and how much money they throw his way.

Regarding the combined BS/MD programs, he is already on that time frame (6 years). I don't know how receptive they will be to taking him (or that, if they do, they will take any of his previous credits), as a bulk of their incentive in offering the program is that you have to pay them for 6 years of education. If he comes in with 2 years of education, that cuts out basically the entire undergrad portion, lessening the likelihood that they'd be interested.

In the end, have him go where he wants and where they will pay him to come. Even if he rushes through undergrad, he is likely to pick up an enormous debt while in medical school. There is no reason to waste the financial benefits someone in his shoes has available to him at this point in the game. He'll appreciate it later (trust me ).

 

[schrizto]

blah.

I'm confused by your username and user title, SocialistMD. Do you prefer The Jungle or Atlas Shrugged?

 

[Mopp22]

no high schooler is going to be able to say with certainty that he wants to practice medicine.

I disagree.

 

[SocialistMD]

I'm confused by your username and user title, SocialistMD. Do you prefer The Jungle or Atlas Shrugged?

It doesn't have to make sense (much as your avatar is a furby, which I doubt really represents you). I enjoyed the latter more, but they both have their merits, should one choose the right aspects of each.

 

[sumstorm]

I am a non trad now, but did a similar program in HS. Well, a bit different, I lived on a college campus and attended college courses as part of a 'residential public consortium high school.'

Here will be the challenge: Anything he is earning college credit in now will be part of his application, regardless of what he does next, assuming he will have a transcript from the lib arts school. So, he will likely be a year or so ahead of the average pre-med student. This is great in some ways, and problematic in others.

First question to ask colleges that he is interested in is if he will be considered a transfer student. That could affect his ability to graduate early. I don't think a combo program would be ideal; those are set up to get the pre-reqs in the first two years and shuttled students into a med program. He would essentially have to retake any of those early pre-reqs he is getting credit in now. I might be wrong on that, but that was how it was when I was going from HS to college.

There are some other components to his application that rushing through college won't help; knowledge/exposure to the field, leadership among his peers at the collegiate level, volunteer/community service activities as a young adult. Since he is so far ahead, I would encourage him to take the time to explore his future in medicine through externship programs, take on a part time job to help with costs, etc.

While it is very nice to know what one wants to do, it is also very nice to explore. I was granted a Watson fellowship my Sr. year of college; the same year i had med school acceptance. I took the fellowship because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity; but because it put me returning to the US too late to start school the following year, I couldn't defer (one year limit.) I never went to med school, and now, a decade later, I am where I belong, in vet med. If I hadn't explored a lot of interests in college, applied for unusual and unique programs, and took a different path, I would probably be a pretty unhappy doctor right now. I have a lot of friends who have completed their residencies and love their work....but when I hear them talk about it, I realize I never loved the treatment part of human medicine....I love the exploration of disease and medicine, which requires specializing in human medicine, but I am able to do in vet med every day, even as a student. There isn't a guide book on most of the exotics medicine I am learning... so this is perfect for me.

Anyways, I hope your son finds the process interesting and exciting. I just wanted to share from someone with a similar life experience.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think that's an extremely useful perspective you've shared. Even if you think you're dead set on medicine, it's worth stopping to smell the roses. Explore other avenues. You never know what you might discover about yourself and your interests along the way.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

If your in new york for example....Bard College Early High school is a school that does the exact same thing you described. The students graduate with an Associates. Now ofcourse, if your child is trying to go to Harvard post high school graduation ....those 60 or so credits accumulated in the last 2 years obviously wont ALL be counted.

On the other hand, as in new york, if your child was to go to a CUNY school...since he already has that 60 credits...all of it would count, and theoretically would be able to graduate from college in another 2 years. Therefore...yes its possible for your child to apply to medical school as early as 20 years old i guess.....

Now is this looked favoriable? who knows, and if it were me, i really wouldnt care. Your child is advanced, went to a school that had an advanced program...if hes done hes done. Hes ready to apply exactly when hes ready to apply nothing more to it. Just because the ordinary student applies at the age of 21 or 22 when they graduate 4 years in college...doesnt mean your child has to wait that amount of time especially when he is ahead.

I havent read what everyone else is talking about on the thread, just sharing my opinions and information that i know.

 

[catdaddy777]

Thanks to all who have responded. This is really helpful information.

This week, through the college he attends, we went to an informational meeting presented by an admissions officer of our state's Medical School.
We were able to talk to her one on one as she was familiar with the HS my son is in.
She also gave us some good information and advice. She said that applying to med school at 20 years old is harder to get accepted but not impossible. She encouraged him to take his time and explore any hands' on medical experiences he could find.
I'd like for him to take his time in college but at this point he seems set on moving forward as quickly as he can. Now he wants to take college Organic Chemistry next year as a HS Senior. I guess as long as he continues to make A's I am not going to stop him.
Thanks again and any other advice you can offer is welcome.

 

[becca10]

I am now in college. ( just started) I do volunteer work but that's defenitely not enough. I can't shadow a physician because I am at a comunity college and am not connected. My grades sucks. And I have no idea on how to syudy for the mcat. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!

 

[Gigantron]

Personally, your son should apply to BS/MD programs. I'm sure there is a description of these combined programs here in this thread somewhere. Now, I don't want to start an argument or anything like that, but I can say for certain that *even though I'm in highschool*, I want to practice medicine. Howard's 6 year BS/MD is my top choice, and I can say that I really do want to be a doctor because of my shadowing experience alone. People have obviously disagreed with the path that I have chosen, saying that I need to "discover myself" and "enjoy the 'college' experience". Unfortunately, anyone who has ever told me this was either a drug addict, an alcoholic, or a combination of both, so whenever somebody wants to give me college advice, I usually take it with a grain of salt. Personally, I think it's pretty dumb to distract myself from what is important just so I can get the chance to have a WiLd CoLlEgE PaRtAy Z0mg.

The average human lifespan is about 25,000 days. As far as I'm concerned, I have another 24k to worry about going to a wild college "partay".

In all, let your son do what he thinks is right. Whether or not this is applying to BS/MD programs, or going the regular route. Either way, he will be a doctor.

 

[psipsina]

Personally, your son should apply to BS/MD programs. I'm sure there is a description of these combined programs here in this thread somewhere. Now, I don't want to start an argument or anything like that, but I can say for certain that *even though I'm in highschool*, I want to practice medicine. Howard's 6 year BS/MD is my top choice, and I can say that I really do want to be a doctor because of my shadowing experience alone. People have obviously disagreed with the path that I have chosen, saying that I need to "discover myself" and "enjoy the 'college' experience". Unfortunately, anyone who has ever told me this was either a drug addict, an alcoholic, or a combination of both, so whenever somebody wants to give me college advice, I usually take it with a grain of salt. Personally, I think it's pretty dumb to distract myself from what is important just so I can get the chance to have a WiLd CoLlEgE PaRtAy Z0mg.

The average human lifespan is about 25,000 days. As far as I'm concerned, I have another 24k to worry about going to a wild college "partay".

In all, let your son do what he thinks is right. Whether or not this is applying to BS/MD programs, or going the regular route. Either way, he will be a doctor.

College doesn't have to be an expensive party. As someone who is a 3rd year in medschool there is a definite maturity gap between kids who even did 4 years of UG and went straight to medschool and the kids who took a few years to explore in between. I'd imagine there would be an even larger maturity gap for someone who didn't even take the 4 years of UG to explore themselves and spend time simply learning about the world outside of medicine. I knew in highschool that I wanted to be a physician, but I think it was important to solidify that certainty with personal exploration in college. You will never again have the opportunity to take philosophy, art, language, history, polysci, religion, literature etc courses and while they may or may not make you change your mind about medicine they will most definitely help you explore yourself which I think is super important no matter how brilliant and gifted and sure of medicine you might be. In addition the extra years of social skills building is also very very important as I've found that the majority of my 3rd year grades (which are weighted the heaviest) are based on my ability to join a group, fit in, read underlying unstated expecations and generally be likeable. Just taking the time to grow and learn is important. Doing well in medschool isn't all about premed prereqs and credits (in fact I'd say its really not about that at all).

 

[Gigantron]

College doesn't have to be an expensive party.

But it usually is.

You will never again have the opportunity to take philosophy, art, language, history, polysci, religion, literature etc courses and while they may or may not make you change your mind about medicine they will most definitely help you explore yourself which I think is super important no matter how brilliant and gifted and sure of medicine you might be.

-I've played the piano for 14 years. Is this not an art? I speak fluent spanish, and I'm taking history at the college level in my highschool. Religion...give me a break. I don't want to offend, but I'm not so "hip" with wanting to take a bible studies class when I want a scientific education. Literature...again, I'm taking English at the college level in highschool. I don't need the same crap in real college. I'd rather go to a 6 year BS/MD program and do nothing but science for the first 2 years and 2 summers. Yes, some people actually want hard and meaningful work, even through the summer. Why should I torture myself by taking liberal arts classes I already took in highschool?

In addition the extra years of social skills building is also very very important as I've found that the majority of my 3rd year grades (which are weighted the heaviest) are based on my ability to join a group, fit in, read underlying unstated expecations and generally be likeable.

-Hopefully by the time most people are in their third year of college, I'll be in my first year of medical school. I've overdid it with highschool extra circulars, and I've been told that they even rival that of college pre-meds. As for being social, it really isn't a problem. I may not have moved to over 4 different cities in the span of 7 years, but if it's one thing, is that I can still talk to my highschool buddies and future college ones through a magical social networking site called Facebook! I don't usually have a problem with establishing meaningful student-teacher relationships with professors.

Just taking the time to grow and learn is important. Doing well in medschool isn't all about premed prereqs and credits (in fact I'd say its really not about that at all).

I agree that doing well in medschool isn't about college pre-meds and credits, but it is about doing well with the actual classes once you're in medschool. I'm sure that because of you're an MS-III in medschool that doing well in all of your pre-clinical science classes was pretty important in order to even stay in, no?

However for me it's different, I'm essentially applying to medschool right out of highschool...so I need all of the exposure that I can get right now. And yes, I can say for certain that this is what I want to do. I'm reminded every time I step into the O.R. and watch a, usually bloody, surgery.

 

[psipsina]

But it usually is.

It wasn't for 90% of the people I went to school with.

-I've played the piano for 14 years. Is this not an art? I speak fluent spanish, and I'm taking history at the college level in my highschool. Religion...give me a break. I don't want to offend, but I'm not so "hip" with wanting to take a bible studies class when I want a scientific education. Literature...again, I'm taking English at the college level in highschool. I don't need the same crap in real college. I'd rather go to a 6 year BS/MD program and do nothing but science for the first 2 years and 2 summers. Yes, some people actually want hard and meaningful work, even through the summer. Why should I torture myself by taking liberal arts classes I already took in highschool?

I did ballet for 15 years, played the violin and painted, took latin and french before undgrad. While these were great experiences they didn't substitute for the experiences I had in college. And by religion I didn't mean sunday school bible class, I meant comparative religion, as in exposure to things that we don't usually get exposed to outside of the ivory towers of college in our society. I'm a stone cold scientist but I appreciate the value in understanding varying religious beliefs and in investigating the origin of religiosity itself. Liberal arts can be very meaningful if you open yourself up to the experience, and it can be hard work too. In addition to all my crazy liberal arts I took graduate level neuroscience coursework and did some awesome stem cell research so its not like I spent all this time painting butterflies in art class.

I agree that doing well in medschool isn't about college pre-meds and credits, but it is about doing well with the actual classes once you're in medschool. I'm sure that because of you're an MS-III in medschool that doing well in all of your pre-clinical science classes was pretty important in order to even stay in, no?

The thing is that kids who didn't even major in the sciences can kick butt in the preclinical coursework. What you do in undergrad isn't preparing you for those two years. Its about figuring yourself out and about learning more about the world you inhabit, which you clearly need when undergraduate religion course = bible class in your mind. Yes passing preclin is important but virtually anyone who gets in is capable of passing, and honoring isn't really as important as you might think. I've found that for 3rd year maturity and people skills are HUGE and those grades are weighted far more heavily. I'm not saying that you won't have these things if you do a 6 year program, but I think that for most applicants 2 extra years to ripen in the undergraduate system would do them a world of good.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Agreed with psipsina on all counts, basically. A bit of young vs. "old" seems to go on in this forum pretty frequently, and it would be good to consider that the "old" often polarize to the same side of an issue for good reason.

 

[sumstorm]

Sorry Gigantron, but you don't know what you are talking about. For the OP's son, doing a 2/4 program may actually SLOW him down. He will have quite a few of the pre-reqs out of the way. He could potentially graduate with his BS in the time you will complete the first two years. If you don't understand the premise you are discussing, it is difficult to find the advice you are suggesting as reasonable, especially when you cast random disparing remarks about college education. Sorry, but unlike you, I worked full time through college. Oh, wait, I guess all that work (as a welder, a CNA, a security guard at a manufacturing palnt) was partying... I just didn't realize it.

I am not saying that the OP's son doens't know for certain what he wants to do....I am saying, as you have displayed with your partying commentary and your failure to realize the applicant will already be far ahead of where you are going into college, that there is frequently a lack of maturity and perspective in students who rush through school and lack real world experience outside of academia (as in employment, paying their own way, doing activities completly for the sake of trying those activities without conideration of future applications, parental approval or school access.)