Need honest advice (brutal ok): 32 yo attorney, 2.43 UGPA, 4.0 science prereqs (so far)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
A

annachry

New Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Ok, first post here. And so nervous about what I'll hear. I feel like a pretty ultimate non-trad, who will end up standing out in lots of not great ways. I'd really like some honest feedback and maybe strategies for applying to med school.

I'm American, but did my entire four year undergrad degree in a foreign country. The curve was brutal. My 2.43 put me (just barely) in the top half of the class, but WES just returned my credential evaluation and I'm stuck with it. No grade bump or curve adjustment. (Getting that document precipitated this post. I'd really hoped for some retroactive grade inflation.)

That said, I'm a good test-taker and have a unique story. I rocked the LSAT and went to law school at one of HYS, where I got great grades and have worked in a "top 3" corporate law firm in NYC for the last six years. The thing is, I really, really, really want to be a doctor. It's about all I can think about. I wish I'd listened to myself six years ago when I thought doing my prereqs + med school would take too long and I'd be too old 🙂

For the past year, I've been taking the odd class here and there- statistics, calc, chem 1 and 2, and psych. So far I have a 4.0 (though physics might about kill me. And of course orgo is an unknown) I can max the verbal and behavioral sections on the new mcat, and I'm hopeful that I'll do well in bio too, once I finish the rest of the prereqs. Physics really is kind of a block for me, so I might not do awesome. But I think I could probably work really hard and get average, making a strong score over all. Have done relevant volunteering, but not a lot of hospital hours. So, will have to amp that up.

But would I have a chance with my UGPA? I think I have compelling reasons for wanting to be a doctor. It obviously is a huge sacrifice for me, since I'm giving up a salary that I'm not even sure I could make as a medical professional. But you know, it's what I should have done to begin with. I'm just worried I won't be able to.

Strategies? Also is it a problem that I did not join a formal post bac and have done my pre-reqs at like three different schools so far? (Still working, so it's basically whatever CUNY schedule best fits, with the non-lab courses being reputable online finds.)
Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
Medical schools understand that there are differences in grading at foreign universities. They're going to want to know why you went to one, though. IF that GPA is a good GPA, you'll have an opportunity to explain why that's so. Remember, you're not talking to dummies, and they've seen it all.

You LSAT grades and subsequent law career couldn't be more irrelevant. You should know that right off the bat.

If you really want to be a doctor, the loss of income is no sacrifice at all. Think about that for a while. Using myself as an example, I gave up at least 800k in salary and putting myself potentially in 300K of loan debt (aside from the two anchor-around-my-neck houses I don't want) in order to make med school happen. I couldn't care less about the money, so long as I can retire decently in the dilapidated beach shack on the desolate island of my choosing.

From what I've gathered from reading these boards over the last few months, med schools don't seem to differentiate between formal post-bacc and non-post-bacc, just as long as the work is done, and well.
 
hah. not sure I've felt so relieved in a while. sent an email in only because I was aware of a few former classmates who received some significant grade bumps when going through wes.

they posted the incorrect info online. they bumped the gpa to a 3.21, which of course is still poor. but so much better than a 2.4! I can actually salvage that and get it up to 3.4ish in the next couple years if I keep doing well I think.

anyway, thanks for the advice. I am surprised to hear that my law career and performance at a good law school won't matter at all. I think it would help mitigate distant poor past performance in school. (not lsat score of course- they won't even know that).
 
Members don't see this ad :)
In a more tangential way of thinking, I am not sure why the LSAT wouldn't matter, since there is so much emphasis on the verbal portion on the MCAT. I mean at least indirectly, that would go in the OP's favor and could give the person some encouragement.
Just a thought. 🙂


Must clarify again, since things can get taken way off online--I am saying indirectly it's good for you that you were able to do well on the LSAT. The VR or now CARS seems to be a challenge for many taking the MCAT.
 
If you did your entire BS abroad, I think you need 30-60 credits (forgot) of UG credit in the US before you can even apply. I don't think the foreign coursework will count for any of your GPA or credits, so it's good you don't have a 2.4 (looks bad), but you aren't "bringing a 3.x to 3.y", you're starting over. Also, online courses (even for non labs) should be taken minimally if ever. I'd look into both these points...

Edit: assuming this isn't a U.S. affiliated campus abroad. That may change things.
 
We don't give a rat's ass about the LSAT because it's a competency example for law schools, not medical schools.

OP, that cGPA is lethal. I don't think you'd make it past any autoscreen, despite the sGPA.

@gonnif! @Law2Doc! Whaddya think?


jl lin said:
In a more tangential way of thinking, I am not sure why the LSAT wouldn't matter, since there is so much emphasis on the verbal portion on the MCAT. I mean at least indirectly, that would go in the OP's favor and could give the person some encouragement.
Just a thought. 🙂


Must clarify again, since things can get taken way off online--I am saying indirectly it's good for you that you were able to do well on the LSAT. The VR or now CARS seems to be a challenge for many taking the MCAT.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
We don't give a rat's ass about the LSAT because it's a competency example for law schools, not medical schools.

OP, that cGPA is lethal. I don't think you'd make it past any autoscreen, despite the sGPA.

@gonnif! @Law2Doc! Whaddya think?
Click to expand...

Did you see his update? I defer to you on all things admissions, obviously, but a 3.2 with potential for a 3.4 (and a significant trend) doesn't seem to put him out for DO if he nails the mcat, does it?

And the law career should matter, I think. Maybe as much good as bad, since he will seem indecisive. But it has to show the ability to excel, in general. I understand why the LSAT doesn't.

I would do extensive shadowing, OP. Make sure medicine is your passion and not just a fantasy coupled with the ennui that oftens hits us late 20s early 30s people.
 
Ahh! Much much better!

OP, there are med schools (MD and all DO) that reward reinvention.

OP will need to show that Medicine is his/her true calling, rather than merely jumping ship from a rotten work/career environment.

Agree that OP needs to get shadowing and clinical volunteering in to prove bona fides.



Mwoods18 said:
Did you see his update? I defer to you on all things admissions, obviously, but a 3.2 with potential for a 3.4 (and a significant trend) doesn't seem to put him out for DO if he nails the mcat, does it?

And the law career should matter, I think. Maybe as much good as bad, since he will seem indecisive. But it has to show the ability to excel, in general. I understand why the LSAT doesn't.

I would do extensive shadowing, OP. Make sure medicine is your passion and not just a fantasy coupled with the ennui that oftens hits us late 20s early 30s people.
Click to expand...
 
Mwoods18 said:
Did you see his update? I defer to you on all things admissions, obviously, but a 3.2 with potential for a 3.4 (and a significant trend) doesn't seem to put him out for DO if he nails the mcat, does it?

And the law career should matter, I think. Maybe as much good as bad, since he will seem indecisive. But it has to show the ability to excel, in general. I understand why the LSAT doesn't.

I would do extensive shadowing, OP. Make sure medicine is your passion and not just a fantasy coupled with the ennui that oftens hits us late 20s early 30s people.
Click to expand...

Indecisive? OP says he practiced law for six years. Straight from law school to med school...now that would be indecisive.

I've been practicing law for less time, so I'm trying to do volunteering/shadowing for at least 6-12 months before I do my postbacc. It is just my intuition but I think that will look less indecisive than just jumping straight into taking classes again.

I actually had a professor who did that the other way. He got his M.D. and then instead of doing a residency went straight to Harvard Law. Some people are weird like that.
 
MrSamrtGuy said:
Indecisive? OP says he practiced law for six years. Straight from law school to med school...now that would be indecisive.

I've been practicing law for less time, so I'm trying to do volunteering/shadowing for at least 6-12 months before I do my postbacc. It is just my intuition but I think that will look less indecisive than just jumping straight into taking classes again.

I actually had a professor who did that the other way. He got his M.D. and then instead of doing a residency went straight to Harvard Law. Some people are weird like that.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean any offense. But if you were to go straight through, you could have the intention of practicing in healthcare law or policy, or ethics, or another practical application for MD/JD. But I don't think any of it is a death sentence or anything. I suppose I meant it like this, med schools probably won't want OP to only practice medicine for six years. So therein lies a necessity to show that OP possesses the stickwithitness that people in demanding fields (medicine, law, etc) must have. That's all.

Obviously there is a market for MD/JD, but like goro indicated it must be clear that it's about it being medicine and not an escape.
 
Hi OP,

Don't worry. I don't think your foreign undergraduate credentials will matter much since AMCAS does not accept WES evaluated transcript. I just got my transcript evaluated by WES and it turned out to be a nice 3.7. I wish it would be accepted but unfortunately this 3.7 means nothing. I've been doing a 2nd bachelor's for two years to fulfill the 90 US credit requirement.
 
Last edited:
So, OP, good and bad news. For MD schools you have a 4.0, it just seems you're just about 65 credits shy.
 
Hrm. This is both good and bad news. I'll have to look into things. Anyone know if cuny offers online credits? I think that's the only way this is doable. Or actually, I was targeting 45ish credits pre mcat through this and next year. But then a year to apply. If I don't need to have the 90 credits until I matriculate and could use that third year... Maybe an option too?

As far as credits transferring, I guess I'll have to see. My undergrad is "equivalent" to a four year bachelors, but it was actually a four year law degree too (another reason medicine seemed impractical- took not one non law class) not sure anyone's gonna be able to transfer those :-/ I did have a lot of ap credits back in the day. Calc and bio won't help since I decided to take the courses and ease back into the school science thing. But I think I still have two foreign language aps, two English aps, and two history ones. But do they expire?

Maybe I'm better off just clepping all the easy literaturey stuff...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Ok. Helpful. (Thank you)
Does the transcript I'd which credits were online and which classroom-based since I know the former is frowned upon.

Also, I do realize this sounds like entitled whining . I'm not generally insufferable, promise. But the fact that I need 90 undergrad credits when I have a us law degree is senseless. Every purpose 90 community college credits could serve is also served by a us jd.
 
Mwoods18 said:
...

Obviously there is a market for MD/JD...
Click to expand...

Um no, there really isn't -- it's a very hard sell. There are whole websites devoted to the wastefulness of this combo. You end up practicing in one area or the other -- you cant do both -- there really is no job that requires both degrees, or pays more for having both. And you don't really keep two sets of doors open because law firms think you'll leave when a suitable doctors gig opens up or vice versa. It intuitively would be helpful for health policy but is still a tough sell to convince an employer that a lawyer with an MPH isn't a big enough gun.
 
Law2Doc said:
Um no, there really isn't -- it's a very hard sell. There are whole websites devoted to the wastefulness of this combo. You end up practicing in one area or the other -- you cant do both -- there really is no job that requires both degrees, or pays more for having both. And you don't really keep two sets of doors open because law firms think you'll leave when a suitable doctors gig opens up or vice versa. It intuitively would be helpful for health policy but is still a tough sell to convince an employer that a lawyer with an MPH isn't a big enough gun.
Click to expand...

And on that note, if you're interested in policy and want to waste money on another degree, I would strongly recommend an MPP or MPH over a JD. Hell, even an MPA. Anything but a JD. With the latter, nonlegal employers will assume you will jump ship for a legal job at the first opportunity. Even if you explicitly tell them you don't have a law license and are not registered to take the bar exam and never plan to they will assume this!

I know a lot of people who have gone into policy with their JDs, and I can't honestly tell you they had a leg up over MPPs. Good Stats and Econ and Finance classes are part of any solid MPP program-you can probably seek them out as a law student but you'll have to wade through courses like Contracts and Civil Procedure and take mostly courses of no real utility to you. And no nonlegal employer will ever ask "How do I know you're not going to quit and take a legal job?" if you have an MPP. And if you're torn between policy and law: either get into Yale, or spend more time thinking and choose one over the other.

I would consider anyone pursuing an MD/JD at the same time a damned fool and never consider hiring them for any job. If I end up getting into med school and becoming a doctor, the fact that I have a JD is not something I will be advertising, and I will not be hanging that law degree in my office.
 
Last edited:
annachry said:
Ok, first post here. And so nervous about what I'll hear. I feel like a pretty ultimate non-trad, who will end up standing out in lots of not great ways. I'd really like some honest feedback and maybe strategies for applying to med school.

I'm American, but did my entire four year undergrad degree in a foreign country. The curve was brutal. My 2.43 put me (just barely) in the top half of the class, but WES just returned my credential evaluation and I'm stuck with it. No grade bump or curve adjustment. (Getting that document precipitated this post. I'd really hoped for some retroactive grade inflation.)

That said, I'm a good test-taker and have a unique story. I rocked the LSAT and went to law school at one of HYS, where I got great grades and have worked in a "top 3" corporate law firm in NYC for the last six years. The thing is, I really, really, really want to be a doctor. It's about all I can think about. I wish I'd listened to myself six years ago when I thought doing my prereqs + med school would take too long and I'd be too old 🙂

For the past year, I've been taking the odd class here and there- statistics, calc, chem 1 and 2, psych, sociology, bio 1. So far I have a 4.0 (though physics might about kill me. And of course orgo is an unknown) I can max the verbal and behavioral sections on the new mcat, and I'm hopeful that I'll do well in bio too, once I finish the rest of the prereqs. Physics really is kind of a block for me, so I might not do awesome. But I think I could probably work really hard and get average, making a strong score over all. Have done relevant volunteering, but not a lot of hospital hours. So, will have to amp that up.

But would I have a chance with my UGPA? I think I have compelling reasons for wanting to be a doctor. It obviously is a huge sacrifice for me, since I'm giving up a salary that I'm not even sure I could make as a medical professional. But you know, it's what I should have done to begin with. I'm just worried I won't be able to.

Strategies? Also is it a problem that I did not join a formal post bac and have done my pre-reqs at like three different schools so far? (Still working, so it's basically whatever CUNY schedule best fits, with the non-lab courses being reputable online finds.)
Click to expand...

First, no more online courses. Of everything you've posted this is the thing that's going to give some schools the most pause. Having foreign education and a nonscience background, you really need to prove that you can excel sitting in a classroom with US premeds.
Second, there's no way you'll ever get close to the net worth you'd have if you stayed put at BigLaw. So if that's relevant it's something to consider. Third, I'd put the brakes on things until you actually do some significant shadowing and volunteering, if you haven't already. Career changers need to look BEFORE they leap. Saying "I really, really, really want to be a doctor" only flies if you can show you know what you are getting into. Unlike the traditional premed who just needs to show some evidence of altruism, you are expected to be doing due diligence for a job change. Otherwise it just smacks of someone fantasizing that the grass is greener. Fourth, there are more similarities between law and medicine than you'd think, so make sure the difference you are seeking really exists. Fifth, "backstory" is incredibly important -- you need a good reason why you want to be a Doctor rather than running from law. You said you had a compelling reason but were so vague that it's almost suspicious, considering all the other detail you put in the post. Sixth, how you got to HYS with a dubious foreign GPA also seemed a little sketchy to me.

The short answer is that you can get there from here, but it's going to take a lot of work, can't be via more online offerings, and you'd better be sure that what you are looking for is really there at the end.
 
Law2Doc said:
First, no more online courses. Of everything you've posted this is the thing that's going to give some schools the most pause. Having foreign education and a nonscience background, you really need to prove that you can excel sitting in a classroom with US premeds.
Second, there's no way you'll ever get close to the net worth you'd have if you stayed put at BigLaw. So if that's relevant it's something to consider. Third, I'd put the brakes on things until you actually do some significant shadowing and volunteering, if you haven't already. Career changers need to look BEFORE they leap. Saying "I really, really, really want to be a doctor" only flies if you can show you know what you are getting into. Unlike the traditional premed who just needs to show some evidence of altruism, you are expected to be doing due diligence for a job change. Otherwise it just smacks of someone fantasizing that the grass is greener. Fourth, there are more similarities between law and medicine than you'd think, so make sure the difference you are seeking really exists. Fifth, "backstory" is incredibly important -- you need a good reason why you want to be a Doctor rather than running from law. You said you had a compelling reason but were so vague that it's almost suspicious, considering all the other detail you put in the post. Sixth, how you got to HYS with a dubious foreign GPA also seemed a little sketchy to me.

The short answer is that you can get there from here, but it's going to take a lot of work, can't be via more online offerings, and you'd better be sure that what you are looking for is really there at the end.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so sure about the net worth comment unless OP was on the partnership track at his firm. Most people who aren't see the writing on the wall before 6 years in and leave but not always.

The look before you leap comment though has resonated with me. I'm also an attorney and I'm thinking that instead of starting in spring 2016, I'm starting fall 2016. I say this not to thread hijack but because it is relevant. I mapped out the courses I need/want and with a little more careful planning and maybe one or two summer courses I can be ready to apply in June 2018, even starting a semester later. I *could* start this fall and shoot for applying in June 2017, but that is a *really* compressed timeline-does not give me time to financially plan, prepare to re-enter school, and show that I've thought about this.

That means: I will have been volunteering a little over a year before even beginning my postbacc (look before you leap), and more time to work and save some money.

I understand the itch to get out, but if you really want to do this, waiting a little while should not change your motivation.

I'm curious about the similarities between law and medicine-what are they?
 
Goro said:
We don't give a rat's ass about the LSAT because it's a competency example for law schools, not medical schools.

OP, that cGPA is lethal. I don't think you'd make it past any autoscreen, despite the sGPA.

@gonnif! @Law2Doc! Whaddya think?
Click to expand...


Understandable, that's why I clarified at the bottom. At the very least, why wouldn't at least some of the LSAT be a helpful indicator of potential success on the VR/CARS section for the applicant? I am not saying you would directly care. I used the term, indirectly as a slight gauge for the verbal. Time and time again I read of people bemoaning their verbal scores.
 
MrSamrtGuy said:
Indecisive? OP says he practiced law for six years. Straight from law school to med school...now that would be indecisive.

I've been practicing law for less time, so I'm trying to do volunteering/shadowing for at least 6-12 months before I do my postbacc. It is just my intuition but I think that will look less indecisive than just jumping straight into taking classes again.

I actually had a professor who did that the other way. He got his M.D. and then instead of doing a residency went straight to Harvard Law. Some people are weird like that.
Click to expand...


Know a fair amount of both physicians and nurses that ultimately went to law school after practicing in HC for a while.
 
jl lin said:
Understandable, that's why I clarified at the bottom. At the very least, why wouldn't at least some of the LSAT be a helpful indicator of potential success on the VR/CARS section for the applicant? I am not saying you would directly care. I used the term, indirectly as a slight gauge for the verbal. Time and time again I read of people bemoaning their verbal scores.
Click to expand...

I think your meaning here is slightly ambiguous. If you are suggesting that a strong LSAT score will correlate with a strong VR score on the MCAT, well, I'm not qualified to evaluate that claim but it sounds reasonable. I've looked at some MCAT VR sample passages and, while challenging, none of them seem to be quite as difficult as the LSAT logical reasoning or logic games sections. I have no evidence to back it up, but I would suspect that someone who managed to score in the 95th percentile or higher on the LSAT (pretty much a necessity to go to a top school barring some extraordinary ECs) could do quite well on Verbal Reasoning. But of course there is more to the MCAT than just that section.

However, if you are suggesting that OP put his LSAT score on his med school application because adcoms will care, well, that seems quite silly.

Being charitable here, I *think* you intended to say the former, and Goro read you as suggesting the latter.
 
jl lin said:
Know a fair amount of both physicians and nurses that ultimately went to law school after practicing in HC for a while.
Click to expand...

My mother was head operating room nurse (not sure of the exact title but that's the gist) and quit to go to law school.

But yeah, I don't look down on any of my career changer attorney colleagues-they're almost uniformly more interesting (although it is much easier to go to law school than medical school as a career changer). I went to school with people with PhDs in hard sciences looking to practice patent law, teachers, a couple of cops, a playwright with modest success-I even know of a local attorney who was a dentist for over 20 years before attending law school.
 
Understand the skepticism. A great law school took me because I had an interesting story and (cynically and more importantly) because I helped their stats so they could take a chance. Similar loophole that's since been closed in that my ugpa (which was way too low to be considered) didn't need to be reported to us news or even be submitted other than directly to the law schools (no centralized, reportable calculations).

But my LSAT score was 99th percentile. And that they got to use. Law schools are, if anything, way more focused on these two numbers vs the holistic candidate than med schools re: mcat/gpa.

Do have a great story for why med school. Don't want to completely blow anonymity. But have worked in legal capacity for org I want to work for in medical capacity. Can articulate reasons and have sustained, career-long interest for this cause and a realistic appreciation of what being a dr in this area would entail. Here's hoping some admissions committee agrees with me 🙂
 
JL, it's simply that we Adcoms are 100% unfamiliar with the LSAT. Even if we accept your thesis, OK, so a lawyer will be good on the VR section. OK, now what? I want to know how s/he'll do on the Bio section! LSAT won't tell me that.

jl lin said:
Understandable, that's why I clarified at the bottom. At the very least, why wouldn't at least some of the LSAT be a helpful indicator of potential success on the VR/CARS section for the applicant? I am not saying you would directly care. I used the term, indirectly as a slight gauge for the verbal. Time and time again I read of people bemoaning their verbal scores.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
JL, it's simply that we Adcoms are 100% unfamiliar with the LSAT. Even if we accept your thesis, OK, so a lawyer will be good on the VR section. OK, now what? I want to know how s/he'll do on the Bio section! LSAT won't tell me that.
Click to expand...

That's completely true. 🙂 All I am saying is that indirectly, the person that scored well on the LSAT may have an advantage from a verbal reasoning standpoint. I probably should have said this as concisely in the first place. Forgive me for that. 🙂
 
MrSamrtGuy said:
My mother was head operating room nurse (not sure of the exact title but that's the gist) and quit to go to law school.

But yeah, I don't look down on any of my career changer attorney colleagues-they're almost uniformly more interesting (although it is much easier to go to law school than medical school as a career changer). I went to school with people with PhDs in hard sciences looking to practice patent law, teachers, a couple of cops, a playwright with modest success-I even know of a local attorney who was a dentist for over 20 years before attending law school.
Click to expand...


^To me this is unquestionably true.
 
jl lin said:
^To me this is unquestionably true.
Click to expand...
This is questionable at best.
giphy.gif


Sorry, had to be done. Please, by all means, continue.
 
gonnif said:
There are part-time/night-classes law schools, including some major schools, designed for law enforcement, some business-types and others, unlike medical schools
Click to expand...
I was just in it for the joke, really.
 
Your successful law career may not help you get into medical school. However, the fact that you haven't given up on your dream of becoming a doctor shows passion. I'd just be sure to mention it somewhere in your personal statement and/or application questions that it was part of the learning experience and helped you get to where you are today.

I know a few success stories were people switch careers in their 30s and 40s. I even met a 50 year old lady who had gotten her PhD, JD, and MD. So don't listen to anyone it's your decision to become a doctor. The worst that could happen is you get rejected. But, you can always try again or consider alternative routes such as DO.

It doesn't matter how many no's you get. Just remember it only takes one yes.

I think you could do amazing things with your law and medical degree! Best of luck!
 
gonnif said:
There are part-time/night-classes law schools, including some major schools, designed for law enforcement, some business-types and others, unlike medical schools
Click to expand...

I was mostly talking in terms of the prereqs, not trying to insult lawyers. There are no prerequisites (although a writing intensive major doesn't hurt, plenty of people go in without one). I think the only absolute requirement for most schools is the LSAT. So there are a lot more paths into law. It's also a lot easier to get into a law school than a medical school. Getting into a top school is hard, but if you just want a J.D. and aren't picky about where you go (ill-advised these days), you can get one.

The practice of law is another story altogether.
 
gonnif said:
Order in the court! Order In the Court!

I want to order a Cheeseburger
Click to expand...

Some inside baseball from a real attorney: bird law in this country is not governed by reason.
 
Sorry, comparatively I have to agree with Mr.Smart. No where near the same amount of sweating to get into a law program compared to a med school program.
 
FWIW I had a sub 3.0 GPA, had 4.0 post-bacc, rocket the MCAT, wrote a good personal essay and had good activities and got more than 1 MD acceptance. If I can do it, you can do it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top