Need solid advice on PA or MD school!

[smham]

I'm currently struggling between shooting for the PA or MD route. I'm a sophmore and have pretty low GPA from CC (2.0) and my first year at a private Christian University wasn't as good as I expected it to be due to a back injury that left me pretty imobile for the whole year (2.5).

I still have about 5 semsters left of school to finish a BS and have only taken 1 uppler level science course. I would be taking all uppper level science prerecs until graduation.

I currently have 5,000 hours of PCA work under my belt, 1000 hours at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation, and i'm in the process of applyingto be a medical scribe. I currently work as an imaging assistant in radiology at my local hospital for the last year mostly full time. I also have an EMT license and an TMA certificate.

I have research opportunities lined up until I graduate and regularily volunteer. I know my clinical experiences set me apart at least a little bit. I've shadowed IR docs and have neuro shadowing set up later.


What I'm really wanting advice on is if I do get staright A's until I graduate, would I even have a shot at MD school if I score fairly well on the MCAT? I'm still considering PA but I feel that I will want to be more involved with patient care and want to learn more after several years of working. I'm currently 22 and see myself being married to medicine for the rest of my life. I've been obesessed with health care since I was a child and haven't worked in any other field. I don't know if I should cut my loses now and move on to PA school or think big picture and really shoot for MD (I don't necessarily have an interest in DO school). Thanks for your help!

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[pamac]

Survey what you have in front of you realistically:

You are essentially starting from scratch, with the added weight of two years worth of credits that are unacceptable to any program (MD, DO, or PA) because the grades are too low. That's going to kill your cumulative GPA going forward. At least DO schools would cut you a break by taking the higher grade you would get by retaking classes.

You will need near perfect marks in your future upper division coursework in order to demonstrate that your first two years of school were a fluke.

You will need to have enough of an academic foundation to score well on the MCAT, which means mastery of the material.

Your health care experience is entry level, and med schools won't care about that anyway. PA schools might, but not enough to overlook poor GPA. There is only so much that any program is willing to overlook. If you have tons of hours of shadowing, it will look strange as well, given that it will seem like you spent time shadowing instead of doing something really important, like studying.

During your next two years of school, you are planning to get A's in courses like upper division general chemistry 1 and 2 with labs, organic chemistry 1 and 2 with labs, biochemistry, numerous upper division biology courses, upper division math courses, and physics (with labs).... plus whatever other courses you would need for your major so you can graduate. A typical semester will have you taking a chemistry, AND one or two biology classes, AND math or physics, AND whatever other electives you need to graduate.... ALL upper division course work. And you expect to get A's.

Another problem with your plan is that you might not even be ready to jump into upper division coursework. If you've never had intro to general chemistry, are you sure you would be comfortable taking the upper division course? You wouldn't just be doing this for one course per semester, you would be doing it for SEVERAL upper division courses at once. You'll also need to study for the MCAT, and do well on it, which for a struggling student means you probably would need to take more science courses than just the bare bones pre-reqs that it sounds like you are expecting to limit yourself to.

All that in 5 semesters.

I personally believe that the average person has it within them to dig themselves out of some pretty big holes to become a physician or PA, or NP, or whatever, as long as they are willing to put enough time and effort into it, and be wise about their academic rebirth. And the longer the road ahead, the more likely that dream is to fall by the wayside due to life events. But even a very gifted student would have a hard time fitting all of the work that you have in front of you into the time-frame you have set. What could easily happen to you is you load up on courses, put in tremendous effort, and get C+'s and B-'s. Or, you could end up with B+'s in all your classes each semester, except for a D or F in one that you are having a hard time in. Very quickly, you could have a lot of C's, D's, F's, or W's all over your transcript.

The most eloquent way I can think of to sum up how I see your situation is that you have six bullets in your revolver, and you have to hit six targets without missing one...when you've never even hit three targets with your six bullets.

The only hope I think you have is to go much slower than you plan to, and master the material as you go. I think you will find it difficult enough to get A's when you only take one or two hard classes per semester rather than stacking up a bunch at a time. Even if you do that, its going to be slow, and getting into med school or PA school will still be very difficult.

You need to impress schools with things they want to see, not what you think should impress them. They want to see good grades, diverse extracurriculars, well rounded and talented individuals. Its so competitive to get in that they don't feel compelled to give away a seat to someone that doesn't seem like a good bet academically. They like people that are passionate, but that passion has to be channeled into being functional to be a successful clinician, it's not enough to simply have it. A lot of people are passionate, but not functional.

 

[smham]

Survey what you have in front of you realistically:

You are essentially starting from scratch, with the added weight of two years worth of credits that are unacceptable to any program (MD, DO, or PA) because the grades are too low. That's going to kill your cumulative GPA going forward. At least DO schools would cut you a break by taking the higher grade you would get by retaking classes.

You will need near perfect marks in your future upper division coursework in order to demonstrate that your first two years of school were a fluke.

You will need to have enough of an academic foundation to score well on the MCAT, which means mastery of the material.

Your health care experience is entry level, and med schools won't care about that anyway. PA schools might, but not enough to overlook poor GPA. There is only so much that any program is willing to overlook. If you have tons of hours of shadowing, it will look strange as well, given that it will seem like you spent time shadowing instead of doing something really important, like studying.

During your next two years of school, you are planning to get A's in courses like upper division general chemistry 1 and 2 with labs, organic chemistry 1 and 2 with labs, biochemistry, numerous upper division biology courses, upper division math courses, and physics (with labs).... plus whatever other courses you would need for your major so you can graduate. A typical semester will have you taking a chemistry, AND one or two biology classes, AND math or physics, AND whatever other electives you need to graduate.... ALL upper division course work. And you expect to get A's.

Another problem with your plan is that you might not even be ready to jump into upper division coursework. If you've never had intro to general chemistry, are you sure you would be comfortable taking the upper division course? You wouldn't just be doing this for one course per semester, you would be doing it for SEVERAL upper division courses at once. You'll also need to study for the MCAT, and do well on it, which for a struggling student means you probably would need to take more science courses than just the bare bones pre-reqs that it sounds like you are expecting to limit yourself to.

All that in 5 semesters.

I personally believe that the average person has it within them to dig themselves out of some pretty big holes to become a physician or PA, or NP, or whatever, as long as they are willing to put enough time and effort into it, and be wise about their academic rebirth. And the longer the road ahead, the more likely that dream is to fall by the wayside due to life events. But even a very gifted student would have a hard time fitting all of the work that you have in front of you into the time-frame you have set. What could easily happen to you is you load up on courses, put in tremendous effort, and get C+'s and B-'s. Or, you could end up with B+'s in all your classes each semester, except for a D or F in one that you are having a hard time in. Very quickly, you could have a lot of C's, D's, F's, or W's all over your transcript.

The most eloquent way I can think of to sum up how I see your situation is that you have six bullets in your revolver, and you have to hit six targets without missing one...when you've never even hit three targets with your six bullets.

The only hope I think you have is to go much slower than you plan to, and master the material as you go. I think you will find it difficult enough to get A's when you only take one or two hard classes per semester rather than stacking up a bunch at a time. Even if you do that, its going to be slow, and getting into med school or PA school will still be very difficult.

You need to impress schools with things they want to see, not what you think should impress them. They want to see good grades, diverse extracurriculars, well rounded and talented individuals. Its so competitive to get in that they don't feel compelled to give away a seat to someone that doesn't seem like a good bet academically. They like people that are passionate, but that passion has to be channeled into being functional to be a successful clinician, it's not enough to simply have it. A lot of people are passionate, but not functional.

I really appreciate your advice and I'm going to take it for serious consideration. I have meetings set up with pre-med advisors over the next week and I wouldn't be surprised if they say the same things.

I have taken upper division science courses along with general chem and bio. These were all A's and B+'s but they were through several different colleges that my school associated with, it's kind of hard to explain over the internet. To get these credits I'd have to attend each school the specific class was for for at least a year and that was just insane.

Again, I really appreciate the advice. I'm signed up for Gen Chem, Anatomy (classes I've aced before) and Physics this semester to start. If I can't manage this I might just have to say goodbye to a career in medicine which is something I'm learning to accept. I struggled a lot in highschool and 2 years afterward with drugs and alcohol and then started college with no support whatsoever, combine that with my injury and I've really screwed myself over. If you have any other recommendations on career paths I should look at I would definitely be open. Thank you SO much!!

 

[pamac]

I don't think you need to give up on your dream, but I do think you need to significantly adjust your timeline, and some of your expectations. And I can relate to academic and health setbacks for sure.

You might want to reconsider working hard towards graduation, and keep in mind that when you graduate, you might not qualify for certain financial aid after you have your degree in hand. That could be a problem if you want to keep taking classes. I don't know how all that works, but it could be a big factor for you. I remember that as a second degree seeking student, if I wouldn't have been paying cash, I would have had some barriers. I'm not well versed on that like a guidance counselor would be.

I know very talented people that had brief setbacks due to drugs, but are brilliant people and put their life back on track and became phenomenally successful. Setbacks don't mean you are a loser. Creative people sometimes turn to drugs to cope with boredom, tragedy, stress.... And their intelligence and creative drive also can pull them out of it and they set themselves straight.

I think overall, the best advice I can give is don't give in to the temptation to try to compensate for your setbacks by rushing in hard in the opposite direction. Get your feet planted, start slow so you can correct your course and build confidence. Get that taste of success, savor it, and build on it. Then stretch yourself a little more. Victory will be addictive. But there's no shame in starting slow. You might feel self conscious being surrounded by folks who seem to be cruising through with no barriers, but that's ok. You are already in a different category that the folks who did it "right" the first time. Embrace the challenge and keep moving.

Guidance counselors will be way more receptive to you if you present them with reasonable expectations, not pie in the sky "I'm going to hit school like a superhero", hopes. They see folks flame out all the time, so often they will send you in the direction that will get you graduated because they think it's better to get you that degree so you can get started on the next phase of your life and accept the fact that you are going to "have to settle" rather than draw out what they see as inevitable. So go in with a plan in hand that involves testing the water. Tell your counselor that if you do well in the first few classes, then you'll know you are on to something, and will want to move on toward that goal. But don't go in saying your plan is to get A's in all your classes from here on out, because that makes you look like a desperate person that isn't in control and is just clutching at straws.

I had a roommate who wanted to be a dentist, but was starting out ground floor at 26 with no education. He's a dentist now. Everyone around him was 22 and getting ready to apply to dental school when he was nowhere near that point. He kept at it, didn't rush. Made it happen.

I don't have any suggestions for an alternate career plan at this phase of your life. You should know that PA school isn't an appropriate backup plan for failing to get into medical school. It's hyper competetive. It's the first choice career of the majority of applicants, so that means they prepared for it specifically. You won't beat out those folks.

Aim to work really hard this semester. See where that puts you. If you see results, do it again. Focus on making each day count and see where that gets you.

 

[pamac]

Your pathway is littered with wierd circumstances and intricacies that make it ugly, but you can pretty things up and get credibility by way of getting good grades. If someone came to me and said that they changed their life around, and had a solid semester to prove it, I'd be interested in taking their word for it.

 

[niko327]

I don't think you need to give up on your dream, but I do think you need to significantly adjust your timeline, and some of your expectations. And I can relate to academic and health setbacks for sure.

You might want to reconsider working hard towards graduation, and keep in mind that when you graduate, you might not qualify for certain financial aid after you have your degree in hand. That could be a problem if you want to keep taking classes. I don't know how all that works, but it could be a big factor for you. I remember that as a second degree seeking student, if I wouldn't have been paying cash, I would have had some barriers. I'm not well versed on that like a guidance counselor would be.

I know very talented people that had brief setbacks due to drugs, but are brilliant people and put their life back on track and became phenomenally successful. Setbacks don't mean you are a loser. Creative people sometimes turn to drugs to cope with boredom, tragedy, stress.... And their intelligence and creative drive also can pull them out of it and they set themselves straight.

I think overall, the best advice I can give is don't give in to the temptation to try to compensate for your setbacks by rushing in hard in the opposite direction. Get your feet planted, start slow so you can correct your course and build confidence. Get that taste of success, savor it, and build on it. Then stretch yourself a little more. Victory will be addictive. But there's no shame in starting slow. You might feel self conscious being surrounded by folks who seem to be cruising through with no barriers, but that's ok. You are already in a different category that the folks who did it "right" the first time. Embrace the challenge and keep moving.

Guidance counselors will be way more receptive to you if you present them with reasonable expectations, not pie in the sky "I'm going to hit school like a superhero", hopes. They see folks flame out all the time, so often they will send you in the direction that will get you graduated because they think it's better to get you that degree so you can get started on the next phase of your life and accept the fact that you are going to "have to settle" rather than draw out what they see as inevitable. So go in with a plan in hand that involves testing the water. Tell your counselor that if you do well in the first few classes, then you'll know you are on to something, and will want to move on toward that goal. But don't go in saying your plan is to get A's in all your classes from here on out, because that makes you look like a desperate person that isn't in control and is just clutching at straws.

I had a roommate who wanted to be a dentist, but was starting out ground floor at 26 with no education. He's a dentist now. Everyone around him was 22 and getting ready to apply to dental school when he was nowhere near that point. He kept at it, didn't rush. Made it happen.

I don't have any suggestions for an alternate career plan at this phase of your life. You should know that PA school isn't an appropriate backup plan for failing to get into medical school. It's hyper competetive. It's the first choice career of the majority of applicants, so that means they prepared for it specifically. You won't beat out those folks.

Aim to work really hard this semester. See where that puts you. If you see results, do it again. Focus on making each day count and see where that gets you.

Pamac, Wow. I am really impressed with your posts here. You absolutely, positively, nailed it. On point. To the OP, read EVERYTHING this kind individual wrote to you. It is the truth of your situation. The good news for you is that your only 22. You have time to show you've grown. But grow you must. You don't necessarily have to give up on your dream, but it will not be on the timeline you want.

 

[NP 2 DPM]

I'm currently struggling between shooting for the PA or MD route. I'm a sophmore and have pretty low GPA from CC (2.0) and my first year at a private Christian University wasn't as good as I expected it to be due to a back injury that left me pretty imobile for the whole year (2.5).

I still have about 5 semsters left of school to finish a BS and have only taken 1 uppler level science course. I would be taking all uppper level science prerecs until graduation.

I currently have 5,000 hours of PCA work under my belt, 1000 hours at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation, and i'm in the process of applyingto be a medical scribe. I currently work as an imaging assistant in radiology at my local hospital for the last year mostly full time. I also have an EMT license and an TMA certificate.

I have research opportunities lined up until I graduate and regularily volunteer. I know my clinical experiences set me apart at least a little bit. I've shadowed IR docs and have neuro shadowing set up later.


What I'm really wanting advice on is if I do get staright A's until I graduate, would I even have a shot at MD school if I score fairly well on the MCAT? I'm still considering PA but I feel that I will want to be more involved with patient care and want to learn more after several years of working. I'm currently 22 and see myself being married to medicine for the rest of my life. I've been obesessed with health care since I was a child and haven't worked in any other field. I don't know if I should cut my loses now and move on to PA school or think big picture and really shoot for MD (I don't necessarily have an interest in DO school). Thanks for your help!

Your GPA is subpar. You will not get into any allopathic schools with such statistics, which calls into question your conceptual understanding of the hard sciences, which would be a red flag for someone yearning to go into medical school. Consider other options REALISTICALLY. Even for PA schools, with such stats, it is not likely. I would recommend retaking classes that you did poorly on, and even consider doing a post-grad program.

Do some soul searching on what you really want to do and juxtapose that with your innate capabilities.