Need some help chalking things out..

[ENGR2PHYSICIAN]

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Hello everyone! As my name suggests, I am an engineer getting ready to make the transition to medicine. I am 26 and plan on starting medical school by the time I will be 31-32 (provided everything goes to plan and I am alive and kicking :-D). I calculated my AMCAS PCM GPA and it is 3.68, which I feel is not competitive enough. I still need to take Biology and Organic chemistry to complete the pre-reqs and I am hopeful I will have good grades in those classes. The only major bad grade that I have is a C in general chemistry 2, but that was due to a lot of family problems I was going through that semester.

Now as I am starting on this path, I need some help on how to approach everything. My goal is become a physician, so I am open to both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools. From all that I have read on SDN regarding D.O., I realize things might be a bit difficult if I that is the route I follow. However, I believe with hard work these obstacles can be surpassed.

Here are some of my concerns, I hope to get some advice on
1)Should I repeat gen chem 2 for a better grade, since I will also be applying to osteopathic schools? Will that be a disadvantage at allopathic schools?

2)I am working full-time, and although I just need 4 classes to complete the pre-reqs, I feel more upper level classes like (biochemistry, genetics, anatomy and physiology etc) will make me a stronger candidate. Will taking one class every semester (at least) put me at a disadvantage?

3)Currently living in a city where there multiple colleges and university, I have the option of taking classes from Boston University, University of Massachusetts (Boston) and Harvard Extension school ( I plan to take most of my classes here). Is it okay to take classes at multiple institutions?

4)I have been trying to obtain volunteering and shadowing experience, not just as a requirement for medical school but also to make sure that I am making the right decision. Most of the places around here expect me to be in a pre-med program or something similar. Any advice on how to go around this and if anyone here (from Boston) has faced a similar situation?

5)The AOA has a website for finding shadowing opportunities, does AAMC(allopathic schools) have something similar?

Thank you very very much for taking the time to read this post. I really appreciate your help and advice. 🙂

 

[DitchDoc73]

I calculated my AMCAS PCM GPA and it is 3.68, which I feel is not competitive enough. You are just fine, and have an above average GPA to apply!

From all that I have read on SDN regarding D.O., I realize things might be a bit difficult if I that is the route I follow. It's not easy for anyone. Just because you are an MD does not guarantee an easier residency placement.

1)Should I repeat gen chem 2 for a better grade, since I will also be applying to osteopathic schools? Will that be a disadvantage at allopathic schools? It can't hurt if you want to take the class over. Benefits are that AACOMAS will give you the higher grade, and AMCAS will average the two. It's really up to you if you want to pay and take the class over. Personally I would not be terribly concerned. You are fine in the GPA department (unless your sciGPA is lacking <3.4).

2)I am working full-time, and although I just need 4 classes to complete the pre-reqs, I feel more upper level classes like (biochemistry, genetics, anatomy and physiology etc) will make me a stronger candidate. Will taking one class every semester (at least) put me at a disadvantage? Can you handle taking more than one upper division science at a time while working full time? That is the more important question. Yes doing this will make you a more competitive candidate, but at the same time you do not want to hurt yourself by performing poorly due to the constraints of working full time and going to school. Adcoms understand that you are a non-traditional student, and they take that into account (usually).

3)Currently living in a city where there multiple colleges and university, I have the option of taking classes from Boston University, University of Massachusetts (Boston) and Harvard Extension school ( I plan to take most of my classes here). Is it okay to take classes at multiple institutions? If that is what you have to do, it is what you have to do. May make it more difficult in the classes though. One school may put more emphasis on certain areas in Orgo 1, while another school expects you to have learned something different for Orgo 1, etc.

4)I have been trying to obtain volunteering and shadowing experience, not just as a requirement for medical school but also to make sure that I am making the right decision. Most of the places around here expect me to be in a pre-med program or something similar. Any advice on how to go around this and if anyone here (from Boston) has faced a similar situation? Can't help you for Boston, but talk to your primary care doc to see if he will allow you to shadow. If you are applying to both programs, it may be smart to shadow an MD and a DO so you have a different letter for each application.

5)The AOA has a website for finding shadowing opportunities, does AAMC(allopathic schools) have something similar? I don't know. Sorry.

Thank you very very much for taking the time to read this post. I really appreciate your help and advice. 🙂

I think that you are in a better position than you realize. Don't let all of the insecure pre-meds get into your head with the "What are my chances with a 3.97 sci GPA 3.98 cumGPA, and a 43 MCAT" BS. Do well on the MCAT, and complete your pre-reqs and you should be fine! Best of luck!

 

[agirl]

this!. and heavy bricks from our friendly fellow SDNers.
3.68 is good.

😎

I think that you are in a better position than you realize. Don't let all of the insecure pre-meds get into your head with the "What are my chances with a 3.97 sci GPA 3.98 cumGPA, and a 43 MCAT" BS. Do well on the MCAT, and complete your pre-reqs and you should be fine! Best of luck!

 

[mspeedwagon]

If you live in Boston and can't find a place to shadow a physician or volunteer that's pretty pathetic. There are probably more hospitals in Boston/Cambridge than anywhere else. I shadowed physicians in Boston since high school (including doctors at Dana-Farber (pediatric onology), Children's (pediatric surgery), Brigham (radiology), Beth Israel (ob/gyn), and Mass Eye and Ear (pediatric ENT)). Yes, eventually I want to works in pediatrics.

Here is what you have to do: contact the volunteer department at any hostpial in Boston or Cambridge (they all have them). Tell them you would like to volunteer a few hours a week, and then during this look out for physicians and ask if you can follow them around for a day.

If you don't have the time for that, then go to the cafeteria at any hospital during lunch and look for folks wearing white coats that say M.D. or D.O. Look for ones sitting alone and not rushing too much to eat, and ask them if they have a minute to talk to you about medicine. Tell them about your interest and ask them if they have recommendations for you. Finally, ask them if they would be open to having you observe them for the day.

Good luck.

P.S. the post wasn't mean to be mean. As another non-trad, I know you can do it if you want it enough. I have been taking one class at a time and it can be hard. Just have a plan and stick to it. I took a few classes at Harvard Extension and really liked them, so I would recommend taking your classes there (I also took at a few at Northeastern, which I liked a lot too). BU was really expensive if I remember correctly and the professors at UMass were not as good. The only class I would optionally take above the pre-req is biochemistry as a lot of schools require it. I'm in your boat with a C in G-Chem II and decided to repeat I and II (since I didn't think the I material was fresh enough in my mind to do well in II). But, this was more to help me with the MCAT than to improve on the C.

4)I have been trying to obtain volunteering and shadowing experience, not just as a requirement for medical school but also to make sure that I am making the right decision. Most of the places around here expect me to be in a pre-med program or something similar. Any advice on how to go around this and if anyone here (from Boston) has faced a similar situation?

Thank you very very much for taking the time to read this post. I really appreciate your help and advice. 🙂

 

[ENGR2PHYSICIAN]

Thank you so much DitchDoc73 and agirl for your responses and encouragement.

With respect to shadowing/volunteering and LORs from respective activity, since I will not be applying anytime soon, how would I store/manage the letters, if say I get them in a year from now?

Regarding the MCAT, it has been a while since I have reviewed basic chemistry and physics. From what I have read, MCAT physics tests very basic concepts and in engineering school, you do learn the concepts but focus a lot more on problem solving. So I figured, I will need a different attack strategy for the physics portion. Anyways, so should I start reviewing with something like NOVA or Berkley Review, or get a college level physics book (algebra based) and go from there?

In terms of taking classes beyond the pre-reqs, what classes you would suggest? I just want to chalk it out as much as possible before I start.

Thanks a lot again. If you have any other suggestions, please do share. 🙂

 

[DitchDoc73]

Thank you so much DitchDoc73 and agirl for your responses and encouragement.

With respect to shadowing/volunteering and LORs from respective activity, since I will not be applying anytime soon, how would I store/manage the letters, if say I get them in a year from now?

Regarding the MCAT, it has been a while since I have reviewed basic chemistry and physics. From what I have read, MCAT physics tests very basic concepts and in engineering school, you do learn the concepts but focus a lot more on problem solving. So I figured, I will need a different attack strategy for the physics portion. Anyways, so should I start reviewing with something like NOVA or Berkley Review, or get a college level physics book (algebra based) and go from there?

In terms of taking classes beyond the pre-reqs, what classes you would suggest? I just want to chalk it out as much as possible before I start.

Thanks a lot again. If you have any other suggestions, please do share. 🙂

No problem! We have all been there. As far as LORs go, they can be a little tricky. You don't want to get them too early, because many programs consider them to be "stale" after 2 years. My best advice would be to check with the school you are attending and see if they have a Pre Health Professions Advisement Office or Advisor and see if they do a "letter service." Most schools do not want you to have access to your LORs, so you keeping them may be a little difficult. If not, there are letter services like Interfolio you could look into.

I am not going to give you advice on Physics (I bombed my MCAT physics section!!!) because I do not feel that I could offer anything productive!

Other science classes I would recommend (IMO in order of importance):
1.) Anatomy
2.) Physiology
3.) Genetics
4.) Biochemistry
5.) Immunology
6.) Cell Biology / Molecular Biology

Other classes that may help:
1.) Medical Terminology
2.) Medical Ethics
3.) US Healthcare Systems (class on healthcare systems and insurance)

I personally would not spend too much time doing too many of these classes, I would try and get the pre-reqs completed ASAP and apply!

Good luck!

 

[wepio]

Other science classes I would recommend (IMO in order of importance):
1.) Anatomy (Biochemistry)
2.) Physiology (Genetics)
3.) Genetics (Molecular Cell Biology)
4.) Biochemistry
5.) Immunology
6.) Cell Biology / Molecular Biology

Other classes that may help:
1.) Medical Terminology
2.) Medical Ethics
3.) US Healthcare Systems (class on healthcare systems and insurance)

I personally would not spend too much time doing too many of these classes, I would try and get the pre-reqs completed ASAP and apply! 👍

Good luck!

Many of the schools I spoke with recommended the above classes, in order of implied importance -- if and only if you have additional time above/after your pre-req's. I agree with the 2.) and 3.) of the "other classes", mainly because it will prepare you for interviews.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Also check with medical schools you are interested in. I have found a lot more than I expected require biochemistry. And, one I'm interested in also requires genetics.

Many of the schools I spoke with recommended the above classes, in order of implied importance -- if and only if you have additional time above/after your pre-req's. I agree with the 2.) and 3.) of the "other classes", mainly because it will prepare you for interviews.

 

[ENGR2PHYSICIAN]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I really appreciate it.

In regards to volunteering/shadowing, how many hours at least should I shoot for? I guess, the more the better, but what should be my goal?

Also, is it better to volunteer at one place for a longer period of time or shorter periods at more places? Does this apply to shadowing as well?

For mspeedwagon, thank you very much for your input regarding shadowing/volunteering around the Boston area. I will definitely follow your advice and get started on that as soon as possible. However, when time will come to ask for LOR from a physician, how will that work out? Do I try and follow the same physician over a period of time or shadow a physician at a smaller health clinic (for example) for the purpose of obtaining a LOR?

Thanks again.

 

[vc7777]

Regarding the MCAT, it has been a while since I have reviewed basic chemistry and physics. From what I have read, MCAT physics tests very basic concepts and in engineering school, you do learn the concepts but focus a lot more on problem solving. So I figured, I will need a different attack strategy for the physics portion.

You are right on the money. As an engineer, you need to unlearn some of your training. You will have to fight your urges to derive formulas on the exam and to check or recheck your work.

To be lean-and-mean, you should just commit the formulas to memory instead of deriving them. If you go in with the attitude that you don't need to study physics, you will be rudely surprised!

That being said: you probably use math on a daily basis currently, so you should be able to work those formulas fast and error-free and crush that section

Anyways, so should I start reviewing with something like NOVA or Berkley Review, or get a college level physics book (algebra based) and go from there?

Again, I think as a returning engineer, you need to learn to attack not only Physics but the whole exam with a different strategy. Unfortunately, for the same reasons you can do well on physics (and I know this is a generalization), your big hurdles will probably be the essays and the verbal reasoning. I think the key to my success was practice and more practice.

I'm not sure the physics book will get you the most bang-for-your-buck. Depending on when you are taking your MCAT, perhaps look into courses or review books. What you choose will also depend on your learning style.

It seems to me that you are approaching this whole process with an open and intense mind. Not to mention, very competitive stats. If you keep that attitude, I am sure you will have great success.

Good luck,

-vc7777

P.S. For my edification, what kind of engineer? What field do you practice in?

 

[ENGR2PHYSICIAN]

You are right on the money. As an engineer, you need to unlearn some of your training. You will have to fight your urges to derive formulas on the exam and to check or recheck your work.

To be lean-and-mean, you should just commit the formulas to memory instead of deriving them. If you go in with the attitude that you don't need to study physics, you will be rudely surprised!

That being said: you probably use math on a daily basis currently, so you should be able to work those formulas fast and error-free and crush that section



Again, I think as a returning engineer, you need to learn to attack not only Physics but the whole exam with a different strategy. Unfortunately, for the same reasons you can do well on physics (and I know this is a generalization), your big hurdles will probably be the essays and the verbal reasoning. I think the key to my success was practice and more practice.

I'm not sure the physics book will get you the most bang-for-your-buck. Depending on when you are taking your MCAT, perhaps look into courses or review books. What you choose will also depend on your learning style.

It seems to me that you are approaching this whole process with an open and intense mind. Not to mention, very competitive stats. If you keep that attitude, I am sure you will have great success.

Good luck,

-vc7777

P.S. For my edification, what kind of engineer? What field do you practice in?

Thanks a lot vc7777 for your input and encouragement. I will not be taking the MCAT anytime soon, however, I want to take the time to rewire some of thought process for the physics section. I have a couple of years before I take the MCAT.

In regards to preparing for the physics section, I am planning on getting an algebra based physics book (like johnson or hewitt) and physics as a second language(algebra version) and simultaneously go through them. The concepts I feel will not be a problem, but applying them in a new way is what I am attempting to master. Practice is essential. Was there any specific material you used to practice. Something like Shaum's 3000 problem books(problem is it's calculus based)?

Thanks a lot again for your input. I am an electrical engineer and practice in power systems/power electronics. Were you a practicing engineer too?

 

[mspeedwagon]

It's hard to say how many hours total. I'm assuming you are currently working and that will put some limitations. I'd say 100 hrs is probably a good goal, but don't think in terms of number of hours, as much as how long it will take you to build relationships with those around you (I'm always stunned by pre-meds comparing how many hours they shadowed physicians when, in my opinion, it's the relationships you build that are much more important). Some people can build excellent rapport in a day. Some people, like myself, it can easily take a few weeks.

My advice would be to shadow a few different doctors at first. Find one you really like and offer to volunteer at the same hospital (this will probably be your recommendation writer). Some physicians won't be open to you shadowing, some will open to ONLY having you shadow for a day (in this case be sure to thank them if you take them with an e-mail or card if you take them up on the offer), where as some don't mind a longer term relationship. I found pediatrics (which was perfect for me since it's my long-term goal), was a great place to volunteer. I got to hang out with the doctors when they had a moment, and then play with the kids in the waiting room during my downtime.

Hope that helps.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I really appreciate it.

In regards to volunteering/shadowing, how many hours at least should I shoot for? I guess, the more the better, but what should be my goal?

Also, is it better to volunteer at one place for a longer period of time or shorter periods at more places? Does this apply to shadowing as well?

For mspeedwagon, thank you very much for your input regarding shadowing/volunteering around the Boston area. I will definitely follow your advice and get started on that as soon as possible. However, when time will come to ask for LOR from a physician, how will that work out? Do I try and follow the same physician over a period of time or shadow a physician at a smaller health clinic (for example) for the purpose of obtaining a LOR?

Thanks again.

 

[vc7777]

Thanks a lot again for your input. I am an electrical engineer and practice in power systems/power electronics. Were you a practicing engineer too?

EE as well, was a bona fide research engineer for over a decade in industry. However, I lost my job right before my MCAT last year. Since then I have taken a temp/contract position doing medical quality engineering. Most recently, I was a BioMEMS Microfluidics system engineer. The rest of my story is in my profile on the left.

I would still suggest maybe no a physics book for you. Since you practice engineering, the concepts are not at all worth reading a textbook....really!

I suspect you are over-thinking this one. Since you have time there are two things I suggest to you: 1) Actually skim a physics section of a test prep book in the library or bookstore. Really take a look to get a flavor for the questions they ask. 2) Take one practice exam under the time limits.

Do both of these before you run off and buy those textbooks. What I'm trying to say, given your background, I don't think the textbooks are an efficient use of your time.

Like I said, you have to memorize a bunch of (relatively) simple formulas to get through it. I think the more important concept is the test strategies a book or course on MCAT prep will provide.

But take what I say with a grain of salt! Good Luck

 

[ENGR2PHYSICIAN]

EE as well, was a bona fide research engineer for over a decade in industry. However, I lost my job right before my MCAT last year. Since then I have taken a temp/contract position doing medical quality engineering. Most recently, I was a BioMEMS Microfluidics system engineer. The rest of my story is in my profile on the left.

I would still suggest maybe no a physics book for you. Since you practice engineering, the concepts are not at all worth reading a textbook....really!

I suspect you are over-thinking this one. Since you have time there are two things I suggest to you: 1) Actually skim a physics section of a test prep book in the library or bookstore. Really take a look to get a flavor for the questions they ask. 2) Take one practice exam under the time limits.

Do both of these before you run off and buy those textbooks. What I'm trying to say, given your background, I don't think the textbooks are an efficient use of your time.

Like I said, you have to memorize a bunch of (relatively) simple formulas to get through it. I think the more important concept is the test strategies a book or course on MCAT prep will provide.

But take what I say with a grain of salt! Good Luck

Great to meet a fellow engineer. It will be interesting to hear from you about the differences in studies at medical school vs engineering.

You mentioned that you practiced a lot for your physics. Did you practice mostly from MCAT review books or other supplementary material as well? I actually went to take a kaplan mcat physics test, and the questions were not really difficult. What I felt was I need a review to remember the terms and small details.

Did you apply to any osteopathic schools? Your MCAT score is really good. You are definitely an inspiration.

Thanks a lot again. Good luck with medical school. 🙂

 

[vc7777]

so many questions!

Great to meet a fellow engineer. It will be interesting to hear from you about the differences in studies at medical school vs engineering.

You mentioned that you practiced a lot for your physics. Did you practice mostly from MCAT review books or other supplementary material as well? I actually went to take a kaplan mcat physics test, and the questions were not really difficult. What I felt was I need a review to remember the terms and small details.

Spot on. Review materials explicitly for the MCAT is what I focused on. Haven't cracked a physics book since 1996 (just the truth - not bragging). 'Terms and details' is right....the devil is in the details....

Did you apply to any osteopathic schools?

Frankly, ran out of money after applying to MD programs (remember, I was unemployed at the time). Since I was having moderate success (with interview invitations, that is) at a certain point in the cycle last year, I made the decision to let things play out without spending more time and money on a DO application. I have nothing against the programs, and I have a good nontrad friend from my post-bacc school who just accepted a 1 year deferred MSU DO spot.

I'm pretty much an open book. I say it like I see it, and I don't withhold much on my MDApp page, btw. If it isn't on there, I didn't do it.

Your MCAT score is really good. You are definitely an inspiration.

Thanks. I'm hearing that a lot lately. But I was 'called out' recently on the Pre-Allo forum my milkmanAl as being not forthcoming with my 'whole picture' - how I got in, me being a nontrad, etc. He was implying that I am misleading people into thinking that if they have a low GPA like me, then they too can expect results like mine.

Frankly, I understand his point about cautioning people that I am 'an extreme outlier' statistically. However, I am surprised more people haven't embraced my success as proof that if you follow the advice on SDN of the more reasonable people (easier said than done because you have to ID the those people and then actually do what they say!), then success is possible. But once again, the devil is in the details.

I am somewhat zealous about SDN, and the nontrad forum in particular because that is in fact what I did. Will it work for everbody? I don't know. Do most people actually follow the advice on here? Can't say.

Regardless I really, really appreciate the moderators and all of the heartfelt posters on here- positive or negative (shout out to Tris).
👍

Thanks a lot again. Good luck with medical school. 🙂

Thanks, good luck with your studies as well.