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[Lisochka]

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hey guys,
Could you please give me your opinion.
I have a 3 year old child and thinking about going to a Med school.
But, first I wanted to ask you how many hours a person should be ready to put into:

1) Med school (is it like a regular full-time college hours?)
2) residency (that one I have heared about 60 hours a week, is that right?)
3) work after residency (some people say it is 24/7 hours and other say that it is 9-5 hours... )
If I chose this path, I would like to do well and want to make sure that I will be able to put those hours into it without damaging my family.

thank you in advance

 

[DocWall$treet]

HAHA residency 60 hours? and med school like full tim college? nice try-more like medschool around 60-70 hours per week and then residency more like 70-80. And after residency COMPLETELY depends on what you choose-surgeons going to work 70-80 hours a week until they die. Pyschiatrists can work 30-40 hours a week and do fine. Is completely dependant on what you go into-but 3 kids-I do not think you stand a chance. later

 

[njbmd]

hey guys,
Could you please give me your opinion.
I have a 3 year old child and thinking about going to a Med school.
But, first I wanted to ask you how many hours a person should be ready to put into:

1) Med school (is it like a regular full-time college hours?)
2) residency (that one I have heared about 60 hours a week, is that right?)
3) work after residency (some people say it is 24/7 hours and other say that it is 9-5 hours... )
If I chose this path, I would like to do well and want to make sure that I will be able to put those hours into it without damaging my family.

thank you in advance

Medical school hours vary from school to school and from student to student. What does not vary, is the huge amount of material that you must master during medical school. A typical first and second year schedule is class from 9am - 1pm and study from 2pm to 9pm. Some schools hold classes longer and thus students are studying later into the evening. They also study a significant amount on weekends too. Can you have a family and attend medical school? Yes, you can and many of classmates did have children and were able to get through medical school successfully.

During third year, some required clerkships like Surgery and Ob-Gyn will require overnight call by medical students. This means that you start out at around 5am prerounding, go through the day (operating, seeing patients in office) and stay in the hospital overnight for emergencies. Most medical and peds clerkships require students to take call but you will be done around 10pm. Again, third year rotations will very from school to school.

Some of the medical specialties put in around 60-70 hours per week during residency but surgery constantly skirts the 80 hours. As a chief residency on surgery, I am constantly at 80 hours and still put in a significant amount of reading and study at home.

I fully expect to work between 100-120 hours per week once I am done with residency and fellowship. I want to get my practice established and keep my skills honed. I am sure that my collegues in medicine will not put in the same numbers as I will but I love what I do and I am happiest when I am operating. The hours for Dermatology, Optho, Path and Rad-Onc are far less then those of a surgeon but those specialties are not for me. Anesthesia is also a good "lifestyle" specialty but again, not for me.

I think you are going to find that nothing about medicine "damages" a family that is strong and secure to begin with. I come from a family that has ten physicians and all of us have turned out well. My aunt and uncle (neurologist and cardiologist) raised two children (both physicians now) who are quite well adjusted and who both have three children of their own. It isn't the quantity of time that you spend with your children but the quality of that time. Believe me, none of us were neglected. I also see plenty of children from families were there are NO physician parents who are headed for prison. It's not medical school that's the problem, it's the parents. I had two excellent parents (my father was a physician) who were great and would have been great parents even if they had been storekeepers.

Is completely dependant on what you go into-but 3 kids-I do not think you stand a chance. later

Had two classmates that had three and four children who did well. You CAN be a good parent and a good medical student. One went into Family Medicine, the other into OB-Gyn. To say that anyone with three children does not stand a chance is misinformation. Medical school with a family is harder but not impossible.

 

[Smitty3L]

Let me start this off by saying it is definitely doable!

I have a 9-month old and am currently in my first year, and I know that there are several other of my classmates with kiddos who are doing just fine. I am a homeschooler, and only actually go to school for anatomy lab 1-2 afternoons a week and then every Thursday afternoon I go to a rotation with a preceptor (basically like shadowing a doc). I would put the ability to homeschool as a high priority when looking at med schools. It makes balancing school and family so much easier. I do almost all of my studying after my daughter goes to sleep.

I would be absolutely golden with 5-6 solid hours a day of studying including weekends. Unfortunately I have no daycare and practically no husband, so I'm not getting nearly the amount of studying in that I would feel comfortable with. I had to pull a few all nighters before my first round of tests, but I made out with A's and B's. And I promise you there were several days that I did no studying at all!

Can I also say that I haven't had to deal with any such negativity like that that came from previous poster. Everyone who I have encountered in my school has been very supportive of having a family and going to school. Just because you are going to be a doctor doesn't mean that you aren't also a person, with a family and a life.

 

[Lisochka]

thank you guys very much for answering me.
I was going to go into oncology. As I understood, there should be no on-calls during the 3-rd and 4-th year of Med school (so about 9-1 classes and then studying on my own ), and the residency hours should run around 60-70 hours a week. Am I correct?
How about the after-residency hours? Am I right to suppose that it is going to be around 40-50 hours a week?
Please bear with me, I am just trying to estimate my own time-possibilities.

 

[SoCuteMD]

thank you guys very much for answering me.
I was going to go into oncology. As I understood, there should be no on-calls during the 3-rd and 4-th year of Med school (so about 9-1 classes and then studying on my own ), and the residency hours should run around 60-70 hours a week. Am I correct?
How about the after-residency hours? Am I right to suppose that it is going to be around 40-50 hours a week?
Please bear with me, I am just trying to estimate my own time-possibilities.

1st and 2nd years typically have class somewhere between 4 and 8 hours/day (varies from school to school and course to course). Often you will have mandatory labs/small group sessions at various times during the day (all of mine have ended by 5 pm or so, maybe one or two went until 6 pm)

3rd and 4th years do not typically have "class" but rather rotate between different hospitals wards. There tends to be a good amount of call involved (AT LEAST once a week for most inpatient rotations, more for some) where you are expected to be at the hospital overnight or until late at night. This means that you will typically need a childcare arrangement for the afternoon and evening, and overnight. The intense rotations (surgery, medicine) will be interspersed with lighter rotations that have a more 9-5 schedule (psychiatry, family medicine). However, Medicine and Surgery and a few other time intense rotations will take up close to 6 months of your year - so you will need a regular arrangement for late nights and early mornings (the day starts for a med student between 5 and 6 AM on these intense rotations). Overall, the hours are closer to 80/wk, and you may occasionally go over 80 on an intense rotation.

Residencies are restricted to working you no more than 80 hours/week. However, some residencies DO go over (although they aren't supposed to). Oncology will first require an internal medicine residency, and most university-based IM residencies have you working close to the max # of hours (80) from what I've heard. You may be able to find a smaller, more relaxed IM residency, but then you will face challenges entering fellowship (required for oncology).

It seems like you didn't fully grasp the post by njbmd earlier in the thread. Maybe my explanations helped, but she is far more knowledgeable than I am so you might want to go back and read it more thoroughly.

 

[Lisochka]

Let me start this off by saying it is definitely doable!

I have a 9-month old and am currently in my first year, and I know that there are several other of my classmates with kiddos who are doing just fine. I am a homeschooler, and only actually go to school for anatomy lab 1-2 afternoons a week and then every Thursday afternoon I go to a rotation with a preceptor (basically like shadowing a doc). I would put the ability to homeschool as a high priority when looking at med schools. It makes balancing school and family so much easier. I do almost all of my studying after my daughter goes to sleep.

I would be absolutely golden with 5-6 solid hours a day of studying including weekends. Unfortunately I have no daycare and practically no husband, so I'm not getting nearly the amount of studying in that I would feel comfortable with. I had to pull a few all nighters before my first round of tests, but I made out with A's and B's. And I promise you there were several days that I did no studying at all!

Can I also say that I haven't had to deal with any such negativity like that that came from previous poster. Everyone who I have encountered in my school has been very supportive of having a family and going to school. Just because you are going to be a doctor doesn't mean that you aren't also a person, with a family and a life.

Are you in Oklahoma?

 

[Lisochka]

1st and 2nd years typically have class somewhere between 4 and 8 hours/day (varies from school to school and course to course). Often you will have mandatory labs/small group sessions at various times during the day (all of mine have ended by 5 pm or so, maybe one or two went until 6 pm)

3rd and 4th years do not typically have "class" but rather rotate between different hospitals wards. There tends to be a good amount of call involved (AT LEAST once a week for most inpatient rotations, more for some) where you are expected to be at the hospital overnight or until late at night. This means that you will typically need a childcare arrangement for the afternoon and evening, and overnight. The intense rotations (surgery, medicine) will be interspersed with lighter rotations that have a more 9-5 schedule (psychiatry, family medicine). However, Medicine and Surgery and a few other time intense rotations will take up close to 6 months of your year - so you will need a regular arrangement for late nights and early mornings (the day starts for a med student between 5 and 6 AM on these intense rotations). Overall, the hours are closer to 80/wk, and you may occasionally go over 80 on an intense rotation.

Residencies are restricted to working you no more than 80 hours/week. However, some residencies DO go over (although they aren't supposed to). Oncology will first require an internal medicine residency, and most university-based IM residencies have you working close to the max # of hours (80) from what I've heard. You may be able to find a smaller, more relaxed IM residency, but then you will face challenges entering fellowship (required for oncology).

It seems like you didn't fully grasp the post by njbmd earlier in the thread. Maybe my explanations helped, but she is far more knowledgeable than I am so you might want to go back and read it more thoroughly.

guys, I so much appreciate your input!
It is great to be able to find the answers to your questions from people who "have been there and done it"

Could I ask you couple more dumb questions, please?
what is internal medicine?
and
what is the didderence between residency and fellowship?

Is it hard to find a residency or fellowship? Or it is harder to get into a med school? Do you have to have good grades for residency and fellowship?

 

[psipsina]

guys, I so much appreciate your input!
It is great to be able to find the answers to your questions from people who "have been there and done it"

Could I ask you couple more dumb questions, please?
what is internal medicine?
and
what is the didderence between residency and fellowship?

Is it hard to find a residency or fellowship? Or it is harder to get into a med school? Do you have to have good grades for residency and fellowship?

The order you go thru training is as follows premed (undergraduate) --> medical school --> residency --> fellowship (optional)

At each of these stages you must apply and compete for the most desireable spots. When you apply for residency the difficulty/competitiveness depends on the specialty you've chosen to pursue (dermatology, radiology-oncology, urology, neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery tend to be the really really competitive ones) and then within that specialty the prestige/desirebility/quality of the specific program that would be training you. For some of the more competitive residencies you have to have a certain caliber of scores/grades/recommendations/experience in medical school to even be competitive, and if you lacked these would be advised by your school not to even apply. No matter what residency you are applying for you will have to pass your classes and the boards . . .which is much more difficult than it sounds and entails some serious hard work. When you apply for a residency you send out applications and interview with individual programs and then at the end of the year you get an envelope that tells you where you are going/are if you aren't accepted to any (which is rare if you have followed the advice of your medschool and not applied for things you aren't competitive for). You then complete your residency and can go into practice or can further subspecialize by applying for a fellowship which is an entire other process that can be competitive. For instance, if you wanted to be an oncologist you would first have to be trained in internal medicine (which is like a general doctor who manages overall health and refers to specialists when necessary) and then subspecialize in a fellowship in oncology. Some types of surgery you have to first do a residency in general surgery then apply for a fellowship say in cardiothoracic surgery. I would reccomend looking over a book called iserson's getting into a residency if you really want to explore how this all works. More than anything I suggest that if you are going to go thru this process, you don't start with something specific that you want to be with the attitude that thats all you would be happy doing . . . you have no idea how competitive you are going to be until you are thru the experience and should only really go to medschool if you would be happy in the most uncompetitive of specialties because you never know where this process will take you.

 

[Smitty3L]

Are you in Oklahoma?

yes, MS1 at OU

 

[Lisochka]

The order you go thru training is as follows premed (undergraduate) --> medical school --> residency --> fellowship (optional)

At each of these stages you must apply and compete for the most desireable spots. When you apply for residency the difficulty/competitiveness depends on the specialty you've chosen to pursue (dermatology, radiology-oncology, urology, neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery tend to be the really really competitive ones) and then within that specialty the prestige/desirebility/quality of the specific program that would be training you. For some of the more competitive residencies you have to have a certain caliber of scores/grades/recommendations/experience in medical school to even be competitive, and if you lacked these would be advised by your school not to even apply. No matter what residency you are applying for you will have to pass your classes and the boards . . .which is much more difficult than it sounds and entails some serious hard work. When you apply for a residency you send out applications and interview with individual programs and then at the end of the year you get an envelope that tells you where you are going/are if you aren't accepted to any (which is rare if you have followed the advice of your medschool and not applied for things you aren't competitive for). You then complete your residency and can go into practice or can further subspecialize by applying for a fellowship which is an entire other process that can be competitive. For instance, if you wanted to be an oncologist you would first have to be trained in internal medicine (which is like a general doctor who manages overall health and refers to specialists when necessary) and then subspecialize in a fellowship in oncology. Some types of surgery you have to first do a residency in general surgery then apply for a fellowship say in cardiothoracic surgery. I would reccomend looking over a book called iserson's getting into a residency if you really want to explore how this all works. More than anything I suggest that if you are going to go thru this process, you don't start with something specific that you want to be with the attitude that thats all you would be happy doing . . . you have no idea how competitive you are going to be until you are thru the experience and should only really go to medschool if you would be happy in the most uncompetitive of specialties because you never know where this process will take you.

thank you so much for your reply!
It helped me a lot!

 

[Lisochka]

yes, MS1 at OU

Smitty3L, thank you very much for your reply.
Can I ask you a bit personal question: what is the average MCAT score to get into your school?

 

[Smitty3L]

Smitty3L, thank you very much for your reply.
Can I ask you a bit personal question: what is the average MCAT score to get into your school?

They used to list it on the website, but I don't see it on there anymore. I pretty sure it's somewhere around 10.

 

[want2beadoc]

I think I remember seeing it was a 9.7 for our class.

 

[eralza]

As a father of a 6 year old and an 11 year old, I can tell you that it is possible, but more difficult than anything I've ever done. Everything becomes a compromise. Where I was once a great dad, husband, and student; I've become fair at all three. By spending time with my kids and wife (which I don't consider negotiable), I barely keep my nose above the passing average. My grades are consistently 10-20 points below the class average. From what I've seen, grades are a direct reflection of how much time you spend learning the material (exceptions to the brilliant students). If you spend 20% less time studying, because you want to be a parent, your grades will reflect it.
In retrospect, I very much wish that I had gone the PA route. With poor grades, my chances at a competitive residency are most likely pretty slim. The more I look at the trend, there isn't much a family practice doctor can do that a well trained PA can't.
Look at all your options and see if something else will work.

 

[Smitty3L]

I think I remember seeing it was a 9.7 for our class.

Did it drop from the class before us?

 

[want2beadoc]

I could be completely incorrect. That was just from memory. Judging by how the biochem test went, I can honestly say that doesn't mean much 🙂

 

[Wizard of Oz]

OUHSC advertised 9.6 for 2009 and 2010. They will probably put it on a board somewhere for family day.

Typical stats--33 or above in state or oos with state ties will get you a first round interview and probably a 10K scholarship. Very high rate of acceptance--you gotta blow the interview badly to not get in with an early interview. 27-30 will give you average odds or better. Anything lower than that will typically be waitlist unless you stand out in some way that I don't know about. I think this year 215 or so offers were made for about 160 spots, so there were probably 20-30 who got in off the waitlist. I don't know how many they overfill on the first round or how many acceptees pulled their apps before interviews were over.

My inclination would be to say slide three points down for the osteo school in Tulsa, but if I did that, somebody there would jump me. All I can say is that the average MCAT there is lower than OU, but the Tulsa programs in general are much more community and primary care-oriented.

OU is pretty friendly to students who can't come to school or don't want to. I wouldn't consider myself a home schooler since I only study a few hours a week, but I don't go to class and nobody cares. Most of the lectures don't really help with the material anyway (at least not for me).

In general, it would depend a little bit on your level of preparation before med school and the speed at which you memorize. If you are a nurse or med tech already, you will obviously have to spend less time on physical exam skills or pathology than the typical student; and you can make up time that way.

Years 3 and 4 are scheduled for 40 clock hours per week, but scheduling is variable to rotation and assignment. Residency will depend greatly on what you want to go into. studentsofmedicine.com has a brief outline of the years of training for specialties, but it isn't all correct.

I'd tack radiology and anesthesiology onto the list of competative specialties. Maybe they aren't quite in that top tier just yet, but they are headed that way.

Internal med--non-surgical study of organ systems between your neck and lower abdomen (cardiology, GI, pulmonology, endocrinology, hem/onc, etc.). Allergy/Immunology and Infectious Disease are also IM, and I think that geriatrics is a short IM fellowship. With a 3-year IM residency, you can become a hospitalist or a primary care doc for adults. If you want to be board-certified in an IM subspecialty, that's where the fellowships come in--they are just extensions of the residency. IM would be PGY (post-grad year) 1-3, then fellowship would be PGY 4-whatever. PGY 1 is traditionally an "intern" but that term is being phased out. Often but not always, doing a fellowship will affect income and practice location with invasive/procedure-based specialties (i.e. invasive cardiology or GI) being more lucrative.

Note--neurology is not IM (above the neck). Many of my classmates didn't get this until they went to an interest group meeting. ORL and urology have surgical components (that's why they are competative). Derm and rad onc are competative in part because there are few training slots for them (and derm also has a nice lifestyle).

Right now I should just let you know that I am procrastinating because I am supposed to be studying for an exam.

Best of luck.

 

[Raist05]

HAHA residency 60 hours? and med school like full tim college? nice try-more like medschool around 60-70 hours per week and then residency more like 70-80. And after residency COMPLETELY depends on what you choose-surgeons going to work 70-80 hours a week until they die. Pyschiatrists can work 30-40 hours a week and do fine. Is completely dependant on what you go into-but 3 kids-I do not think you stand a chance. later

Isn't one of the most important qualities of a doctor being able to listen to your patients and have a connection with them? Lisochka said that she has a 3 year old child, not 3 kids. Maybe you should take a look at yourself before telling other people they aren't cut out for life as a physician.

 

[lilnoelle]

I have a three year old and a 1 year old and I am a first year student. I haven't (yet) found the amount of work I have to do to exceed a full time job. I know this will be different once gross anatomy starts and third and fourth year/residency will be much more intense.
You said you have a 3 year old. How far are you in the process of your application? If you haven't taken your prereqs yet, your talking about at least 2-3 years before you would be applying. Then your daughter will be in school when you apply. If thats the case, your situation would be better than mine. Something that is very important is the amount of support you get from your husband i.e. how much he is willing to work with you as far as raising your kids/keeping a house etc.

 

[Lisochka]

Isn't one of the most important qualities of a doctor being able to listen to your patients and have a connection with them? Lisochka said that she has a 3 year old child, not 3 kids. Maybe you should take a look at yourself before telling other people they aren't cut out for life as a physician.

Thank you Raist, that is right. 🙂

Hey guys, how about gastrointerology? Is it again Internal Medicine residency and then fellowship?
Thank you all for the help- it is very kind of you!