Needing Objective Feedback/Recommendations

[PsychGreen86]

Hello! Long time lurker, first time posting. I will try to paint a full picture in a concise way in hopes that I can get some feedback. 😊
Childhood brief: Grew up in a dysfunctional home, DV, neglect, mother and sister suffer from mental disabilities. I fought, drank, in high school, lost creative writing scholarship. Fast forward, married at 18, attended intensive pastoral counseling, started popping out kids, cleaned up.
Current situation: Happily married, I am now late thirties with a Bachelor degree in Behavioral Health despite poor executive functioning. I worked corporate jobs in between kids and was always depressed there and hated them. I was well liked, often promoted, but as soon as my husband climbed the ranks at work, I was out. Happy to be a SAHM and taught myself to cook from scratch. I may even have separation anxiety from my kids. I hate being away from them for extended periods and practice very attached parenting. Child one freshman in high school. Child three is neurodiverse and homeschooling and doing awesome. Child seven is cooking in the oven. Hubby is an awesome dad who works long hours running a construction group and occasionally volunteers at a men’s ministry.

Grad school: unfortunately, my husband will not be able to provide for us long-term. He will probably kill himself trying if he has to. We always knew I would eventually have to go back to work. I have wanted to be a clinical psychologist since I was 12. When I started having all these kids I settled on a LCSW pathway. My BSW program was miserable which is why I switched even though it would’ve save me time in the long run. I tend to hyper focus on things for the better part of the year (such as homesteading/farming only to conclude I hate the smell of cow poop and have no green thumb, I just want some solitude and organic fresh food for my kids). Every few years I hyperfocus on what it would take to become a Clinical Psychologist rather than LCSW which my husband dismisses as “there she goes again. You want to homestead, move abroad, and become a doctor.” In reality, the desire to become a clinical psychologist never went away.

The problem: I’ve been in social work groups for almost two decades, socially, or brief volunteer stints, or providers, or online. By and large, I do not like the overall profession. I do not see myself as a social worker. I’ve been hitting my head against the wall with my unmotivated, frequently hospitalized BPD sister my entire adult life. I’ve been translating documents into English for my husband’s workers and connecting them with resources forever. I’ve been in HR. I’ve even dealt with unpleasant and incompetent CPS workers, albeit briefly, after my decision to homeschool. My most excruciating classes were Intro to Case Management, Group Counseling Dynamics, and Social Work Principles. My FAVORITE classes were Abnormal Psych, Trauma in Childhood, Child Psych and Development. I looked at multiple sample curriculum for MSW and PsyD. I know many land on MSWs to shorten school and debt because “end game is therapy”, and I DO want to provide therapy, 75% of the time, but also I just love the study of human behavior and books like The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog, etc. I need to make money. Seven kids. Living frugal not looking to get rich.
The question: Am I being unreasonable or idealistic? Do I need to just let my dream die because it’s extremely difficult and time consuming, possibly even selfish? Would a PsyD provide a better return for my family and life/work balance or not really? LCSW job postings are EVERYWHERE…. PsyD not so much.
Side note: I’ve researched the career paths extensively, I know the requirements, GRE, intern, post doc, etc etc as well as LCSW requires post degree supervision which you often pay a ton of money for 🙄unless you land a job with supervision, then take the test.
Side side note: I would prefer not working in public schools.
Please don’t hate me for length. I’m pregnant, please don’t tear me to shreds.😂 THANK YOU!

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[cara susanna]

Based on your limitations (kids that you don't want to spend too much time away from, financial concerns, I assume geographical restrictions), I would probably recommend an LCSW route. I understand wanting to choose the psychologist route (obviously I do prefer our training) but I am not sure it's realistic unless you're willing to live apart from your family or cart them around different parts of the country with you for grad school, internship, and possibly even post doc.

 

[PsychGreen86]

Thank you. If you were in my shoes how would you get past all the courses that you hate or the identity you don’t align yourself with as much (social Justice, advocacy) and enrich yourself in a clinical way? Sorry if this is more of a social worker question

 

[summerbabe]

From a pure cost v benefit analysis, a PsyD will likely be a minimum of 6 years (5 years in school + 1 year of internship) before you start to earn income during your first year as an unlicensed graduate with multiple relocations possibly. And if you experience delays (dissertation not on track, don't pass comps the first time, needing to take time off), that process lengths while your debt continues to acrue.

PsyDs that are pitching 4 year tracks + 1 year of internship are not doing their students any favors IMO and likely setting some of those people up for failure.

It's also not unheard of for somebody to spend a whole decade in school & post-grad but pre-licensure status (depending on their state) before they are making money as a licensed psychologist. But even then, what you'd make during the first years of your career will almost certainly be lower than what one could earn in mid or late career.

If you were 21 and fresh out of undergrad, a PsyD might make more sense (but is still a poor investment IMO) since there's a lot more time to work, establish your career, and pay off that debt.

As for coursework, at least in my PhD program, coursework was by far the least emphasized element, with professors largely mailing it in (e.g., going over PowerPoints they made years ago and no longer update) and many classes resembled their undergrad counterpart with a few different points of emphasis. But core foundational things like objective assessment and research methods were much more interesting and engaging.

It sucks you had a bad BSW experience but it's very possible that an MSW program at a different school (or even the same school but with different profs and classmates) could be more enjoyable since this is likely the best option for starting a career as a therapist. Good luck!

 

[PsychGreen86]

From a pure cost v benefit analysis, a PsyD will likely be a minimum of 6 years (5 years in school + 1 year of internship) before you start to earn income during your first year as an unlicensed graduate with multiple relocations possibly. And if you experience delays (dissertation not on track, don't pass comps the first time, needing to take time off), that process lengths while your debt continues to acrue.

PsyDs that are pitching 4 year tracks + 1 year of internship are not doing their students any favors IMO and likely setting some of those people up for failure.

It's also not unheard of for somebody to spend a whole decade in school & post-grad but pre-licensure status (depending on their state) before they are making money as a licensed psychologist. But even then, what you'd make during the first years of your career will almost certainly be lower than what one could earn in mid or late career.

If you were 21 and fresh out of undergrad, a PsyD might make more sense (but is still a poor investment IMO) since there's a lot more time to work, establish your career, and pay off that debt.

As for coursework, at least in my PhD program, coursework was by far the least emphasized element, with professors largely mailing it in (e.g., going over PowerPoints they made years ago and no longer update) and many classes resembled their undergrad counterpart with a few different points of emphasis. But core foundational things like objective assessment and research methods were much more interesting and engaging.

It sucks you had a bad BSW experience but it's very possible that an MSW program at a different school (or even the same school but with different profs and classmates) could be more enjoyable since this is likely the best option for starting a career as a therapist. Good luck!

Thank you for your feedback, very helpful. I have definitely seen outdated PowerPoints etc even in my Bachelor’s.

 

[R. Matey]

If you really can't stand the SW profession, the LPC/LMHC is another path. The coursework is more focused on preparing people to be therapists than training in the social work ethos. That includes more psychotherapy coursework, psychopathology, etc. You will absolutely need to supplement the formal coursework with post-degree didactics. The downside is this path has fewer opportunities compared with social work, but my perception is that this gap is narrowing.

 

[PsychGreen86]

If you really can't stand the SW profession, the LPC/LMHC is another path. The coursework is more focused on preparing people to be therapists than training in the social work ethos. That includes more psychotherapy coursework, psychopathology, etc. You will absolutely need to supplement the formal coursework with post-degree didactics. The downside is this path has fewer opportunities compared with social work, but my perception is that this gap is narrowing.

Thank you!! I always heard pay is abysmal for LPCs but I think I will look into this. The time saved may make it worth it in the end. Speaking of opportunities, I frequently check job postings for clinical psychologist in my area and let’s say within a 50 mile radius I may get about 30 postings that are asking for LCSWs, maybe a quarter of those state “or psychologists”, and only one or two postings ask specifically for clinical psychologists. It is disheartening to me that LCSW postings are taking over the world because I feel many are ill equipped but 🤷‍♀️ I digress

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you!! I always heard pay is abysmal for LPCs but I think I will look into this. The time saved may make it worth it in the end. Speaking of opportunities, I frequently check job postings for clinical psychologist in my area and let’s say within a 50 mile radius I may get about 30 postings that are asking for LCSWs, maybe a quarter of those state “or psychologists”, and only one or two postings ask specifically for clinical psychologists. It is disheartening to me that LCSW postings are taking over the world because I feel many are ill equipped but 🤷‍♀️ I digress

If you see a job posting for an LCSW or psychologist, the psychologist pay is not that much more than the LCSW. As for PsyDs vs LCSWs and being equipped, there are a little over a handful of PsyDs that I would say are very good, but many of the rest are churning out who are at about the LCSW/midlevel in terms of clinical skills and knowledge about what they are doing, in my experience.

 

[PsyDr]

Usually, it's not a great idea to tell admissions why you can't do it.

As for PsyDs vs LCSWs and being equipped, there are a little over a handful of PsyDs that I would say are very good, but many of the rest are churning out who are at about the LCSW/midlevel in terms of clinical skills and knowledge about what they are doing, in my experience.

hey...

 

[WisNeuro]

Usually, it's not a great idea to tell admissions why you can't do it.

hey...

Just calling it like I see it. We had one of the now-defunt bigger mills in our backyards, so their grads are all over the place here. Most of teh ones that I have met and talked to are absolutely clueless about the knowledge base of what they are doing, but have no insight into what they don't know. They are like the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[PsychGreen86]

Just calling it like I see it. We had one of the now-defunt bigger mills in our backyards, so their grads are all over the place here. Most of teh ones that I have met and talked to are absolutely clueless about the knowledge base of what they are doing, but have no insight into what they don't know. They are like the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I have read research papers and reports and even threads on here that have really sparked my passion and been absolutely fascinating. When I read anything from a social work perspective, or a video or what have you, it seems so shallow, not well-researched, trendy, or just painful. I’m glad to hear your perspective that there is a history of psych diploma mills and less than qualified psychologists. I guess your education is partially what you make it- where you study and what you put into it.

 

[R. Matey]

Thank you!! I always heard pay is abysmal for LPCs but I think I will look into this.

This will largely depend on the setting. Hospital systems are more likely to hire social workers than mental health counselors, which may explain pay differences in aggregate, but it is also common for social workers and LMHCs to work in similar settings where I presume the pay is dependent on experience vs. degree.

 

[PsychGreen86]

This will largely depend on the setting. Hospital systems are more likely to hire social workers than mental health counselors, which may explain pay differences in aggregate, but it is also common for social workers and LMHCs to work in similar settings where I presume the pay is dependent on experience vs. degree.

Thank you!

 

[jdawg2017]

Long post, so I apologize, but I want to fully flush out my thoughts because your situation is unique.

If the goal is to be a therapist and not much else, I would 100% advise you got either an MSW, LPC, or LMHC. Funded clinical psychology programs are becoming increasingly competitive (think like <3% acceptance rates), which means not only do all of the administrative stars need to be aligned to gain admission, but you typically need to have a certain set of qualifications to gain an edge. While it's not 100% the case, PhD programs tend to favor applicants with research backgrounds and ambitions more than folks who want to be a clinician only. It could take numerous years just go gain acceptance to one of these funded programs, if you gain acceptance at all, and then like the others said you are looking at at minimum 5-6 years of doctoral training, internship, and post-doc before you will be license eligible and able to make the "big bucks." You could probably get into a PsyD program quickly, but I would be weary of any program that takes you on too fast because odds are you are going to be spending $$$$$$$$$$$ on tuition.

Let's just do some math to explain why the master's level route might make more sense.

Let's assume you go 60k in debt and get an MSW in 2 years (this is roughly what my partner has in debt from their MSW). You then start working and make 50k+ a year. 50k x 4 years = 200,000k gross income in the bank. Again, anecdotally my partner makes 50-60k a few years out. The earnings ceiling is definitely lower than a doctorate degree, but the income is steady and you start earning a salary much sooner.

For doctoral training, let's for math's sake say you make 30k a year and do not pay tuition (a best-scenario overestimate) during your PhD and internship, assuming you are lucky to land a funded program. That would be 30k x 6 years = 180k. You're already in the hole 20k in income plus the best case scenario vs. the master's route. In the worst case scenario, you attend a program that does not have funding and you take on 200k+ in debt, which is crippling, and you don't earn any income to speak of for 5 years until you go on internship where you maybe make ~30k.

For psychotherapy, others are right that your earnings as a doctoral-level psychologist is not going to be significantly more than a master's level clinician in many psychotherapy settings; assessment pays more, if you are interested in that. I think I have heard of peers a few years ahead of me landing first-time therapy clinician jobs after post-doc in the 75-90k range, with the higher end being driven by high COL areas. A really big issue with doctoral training, too, is you are very possibly needing to move 4 times: moving to the program's city, one time for internship for a year, moving to post-doc for a year, and moving for your first job. This is the worst case scenario, as lots of folks stay in the same city for internship and post-doc, etc., but nothing is really guaranteed. I am about to go on post-doc and am hoping to stay put after for my family's sake, but this will be my third move in 6 years. I love what I do, but truthfully I cannot imagine moving more than once for an opportunity if my partner and I had children.

I guess a lot of this boils down to if you and your partner can make it work financially for your family for all of these potential moves. Grad school, period, is not for the faint of heart, but if the end goal is primarily being a psychotherapist there are quicker, cheaper ways to get there. I would also say that if you can grit your teeth through the philosophy differences of social work that it is a much more versatile degree (my partner has worked in both macro work at a non-profit and has worked in private practice... you probably won't do the former, really, with an LMHC/LPC). I think all of us can relate to taking classes on topics we fundamentally did not agree with - that is part of attending school and could easily be an issue in a psychology program, as these programs are tilting more-and-more toward a social justice lens as well (assuming that is your chief concern based on your comment).

Hope this helps. There's a lot to consider in your case!

 

[PsychGreen86]

Long post, so I apologize, but I want to fully flush out my thoughts because your situation is unique.

If the goal is to be a therapist and not much else, I would 100% advise you got either an MSW, LPC, or LMHC. Funded clinical psychology programs are becoming increasingly competitive (think like <3% acceptance rates), which means not only do all of the administrative stars need to be aligned to gain admission, but you typically need to have a certain set of qualifications to gain an edge. While it's not 100% the case, PhD programs tend to favor applicants with research backgrounds and ambitions more than folks who want to be a clinician only. It could take numerous years just go gain acceptance to one of these funded programs, if you gain acceptance at all, and then like the others said you are looking at at minimum 5-6 years of doctoral training, internship, and post-doc before you will be license eligible and able to make the "big bucks." You could probably get into a PsyD program quickly, but I would be weary of any program that takes you on too fast because odds are you are going to be spending $$$$$$$$$$$ on tuition.

Let's just do some math to explain why the master's level route might make more sense.

Let's assume you go 60k in debt and get an MSW in 2 years (this is roughly what my partner has in debt from their MSW). You then start working and make 50k+ a year. 50k x 4 years = 200,000k gross income in the bank. Again, anecdotally my partner makes 50-60k a few years out. The earnings ceiling is definitely lower than a doctorate degree, but the income is steady and you start earning a salary much sooner.

For doctoral training, let's for math's sake say you make 30k a year and do not pay tuition (a best-scenario overestimate) during your PhD and internship, assuming you are lucky to land a funded program. That would be 30k x 6 years = 180k. You're already in the hole 20k in income plus the best case scenario vs. the master's route. In the worst case scenario, you attend a program that does not have funding and you take on 200k+ in debt, which is crippling, and you don't earn any income to speak of for 5 years until you go on internship where you maybe make ~30k.

For psychotherapy, others are right that your earnings as a doctoral-level psychologist is not going to be significantly more than a master's level clinician in many psychotherapy settings; assessment pays more, if you are interested in that. I think I have heard of peers a few years ahead of me landing first-time therapy clinician jobs after post-doc in the 75-90k range, with the higher end being driven by high COL areas. A really big issue with doctoral training, too, is you are very possibly needing to move 4 times: moving to the program's city, one time for internship for a year, moving to post-doc for a year, and moving for your first job. This is the worst case scenario, as lots of folks stay in the same city for internship and post-doc, etc., but nothing is really guaranteed. I am about to go on post-doc and am hoping to stay put after for my family's sake, but this will be my third move in 6 years. I love what I do, but truthfully I cannot imagine moving more than once for an opportunity if my partner and I had children.

I guess a lot of this boils down to if you and your partner can make it work financially for your family for all of these potential moves. Grad school, period, is not for the faint of heart, but if the end goal is primarily being a psychotherapist there are quicker, cheaper ways to get there. I would also say that if you can grit your teeth through the philosophy differences of social work that it is a much more versatile degree (my partner has worked in both macro work at a non-profit and has worked in private practice... you probably won't do the former, really, with an LMHC/LPC). I think all of us can relate to taking classes on topics we fundamentally did not agree with - that is part of attending school and could easily be an issue in a psychology program, as these programs are tilting more-and-more toward a social justice lens as well (assuming that is your chief concern based on your comment).

Hope this helps. There's a lot to consider in your case!

This was extremely, extremely helpful. My husband is usually my voice of reason but he knows nothing about college in the States so I needed this type of number-crunching, in my face, realism because my brain does not work that way. I am also very reassured that you said many suffer through classes that they do not fundamentally agree with. I feel like I have almost 20 years adult life experience with immigration, mental illness, and other things and I’ve formed some opinions (which could change in school but who knows). Not to beat a dead horse, but I love the study of human behavior and psychology, have strong opinions and passion in regards to children with PTSD (think Dr Bruce Perry). I think I can do meaningful work with a decent salary the MSW to LCSW route. Most of us rack up debt, but with seven kids, one already filling out her FASFA (yikes) I can’t be reckless here.
I did go down a LCPC rabbit hole due to this thread and got quite starry eyed but I secretly wonder if I can handle therapy and only therapy indefinitely. Probably not. I would probably need that plan B that comes with an LCSW (macro, case management, etc).
Thank you so very much!!!

 

[PsychGreen86]

This was extremely, extremely helpful. My husband is usually my voice of reason but he knows nothing about college in the States so I needed this type of number-crunching, in my face, realism because my brain does not work that way. I am also very reassured that you said many suffer through classes that they do not fundamentally agree with. I feel like I have almost 20 years adult life experience with immigration, mental illness and I’ve formed some opinions (which could change in school but who knows). Not to beat a dead horse, but I love the study of human behavior and psychology, have strong opinions and passion in regards to children with PTSD (think Dr Bruce Perry). I think I can do meaningful work with a decent salary the MSW to LCSW route. Most of us rack up debt, but with seven kids, one already filling out her FASFA (yikes) I can’t be reckless here.
I did go down a LCPC rabbit hole due to this thread and got quite starry eyed but I secretly wonder if I can handle therapy and only therapy indefinitely. Probably not. I would probably need that plan B that comes with an LCSW (macro, case management, etc).
Thank you so very much!!!

There’s also the very real fact that I may not even be accepted to a program I want 😂 or be unable to move multiple times! Thanks again.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This was extremely, extremely helpful. My husband is usually my voice of reason but he knows nothing about college in the States so I needed this type of number-crunching, in my face, realism because my brain does not work that way. I am also very reassured that you said many suffer through classes that they do not fundamentally agree with. I feel like I have almost 20 years adult life experience with immigration, mental illness, and other things and I’ve formed some opinions (which could change in school but who knows). Not to beat a dead horse, but I love the study of human behavior and psychology, have strong opinions and passion in regards to children with PTSD (think Dr Bruce Perry). I think I can do meaningful work with a decent salary the MSW to LCSW route. Most of us rack up debt, but with seven kids, one already filling out her FASFA (yikes) I can’t be reckless here.
I did go down a LCPC rabbit hole due to this thread and got quite starry eyed but I secretly wonder if I can handle therapy and only therapy indefinitely. Probably not. I would probably need that plan B that comes with an LCSW (macro, case management, etc).
Thank you so very much!!!

Welcome to the forums. I think others here have done a great job of providing solid information for you to consider in making your decision. RE: the bolded portion, I'd add a caution that life experiences can sometimes be very helpful in the course of mental health training (and in rapport building with patients), but can sometimes also be detrimental, such as if they go against the evidence base and cause us to discount therapies, theories, findings, etc., because they don't align with our own experience-based opinions. For example, I once had someone tell me they didn't "believe" in exposure-based therapies for PTSD because of their own experiences with trauma, so they weren't interested in receiving training in such despite wanting to work with folks with PTSD. If you search through past threads, you'll see similar cautions given to folks wanting to be involved in research in areas they've dealt with personally (i.e., "me-search").

I know in your original post that you mentioned you would like to provide psychotherapy 75% of the time, and in the quoted post you mention a few non-therapy activities (e.g., case management). I think focusing on some of those non-therapy activities that you'd ideally like to be a part of your day-to-day work, as it sounds like you're doing, could be helpful in informing your decision.

 

[PsychGreen86]

Welcome to the forums. I think others here have done a great job of providing solid information for you to consider in making your decision. RE: the bolded portion, I'd add a caution that life experiences can sometimes be very helpful in the course of mental health training (and in rapport building with patients), but can sometimes also be detrimental, such as if they go against the evidence base and cause us to discount therapies, theories, findings, etc., because they don't align with our own experience-based opinions. For example, I once had someone tell me they didn't "believe" in exposure-based therapies for PTSD because of their own experiences with trauma, so they weren't interested in receiving training in such despite wanting to work with folks with PTSD. If you search through past threads, you'll see similar cautions given to folks wanting to be involved in research in areas they've dealt with personally (i.e., "me-search").

I know in your original post that you mentioned you would like to provide psychotherapy 75% of the time, and in the quoted post you mention a few non-therapy activities (e.g., case management). I think focusing on some of those non-therapy activities that you'd ideally like to be a part of your day-to-day work, as it sounds like you're doing, could be helpful in informing your decision.

Thank you for your feedback. I know I have seen this before as well. For example, I worked extensively with my sons school in regards to getting services and I’ve seen other parents think they are experts because their child has some kind of disorder or disability when in reality the perspective you receive in training is going to be different. So I definitely see what you’re saying. However the example you used is quite interesting because what if there are legitimate critiques on exposure therapy? My sister has BPD and I am convinced it is caused by untreated childhood PTSD. Of course I could be wrong but I have had psychologists told me that there is some overlap there. I am 100% open minded though to what I would learn in my studies and training. I would not put a wall up in that sense.
As far as case management and other things are concerned, I don’t really enjoy doing that stuff but I am just saying that it would be nice to have other job options should therapy burn me out at some point! I would have preferred doing assessments and a valuations as a side stream of income but it seems like a doctorate degree is out of reach. Thank you so much for your feedback. 🙂

 

[counselor2b]

This will largely depend on the setting. Hospital systems are more likely to hire social workers than mental health counselors, which may explain pay differences in aggregate, but it is also common for social workers and LMHCs to work in similar settings where I presume the pay is dependent on experience vs. degree.

This has been my experience as well. Most places I have worked, the job postings typically state LCSW, LPC or LMFT as the requirement for employment. Like you said, some places still have a bias towards LCSW but at least in my geographic area this has not really been an issue.

 

[PsychGreen86]

This has been my experience as well. Most places I have worked, the job postings typically state LCSW, LPC or LMFT as the requirement for employment. Like you said, some places still have a bias towards LCSW but at least in my geographic area this has not really been an issue.

Thank you

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you for your feedback. I know I have seen this before as well. For example, I worked extensively with my sons school in regards to getting services and I’ve seen other parents think they are experts because their child has some kind of disorder or disability when in reality the perspective you receive in training is going to be different. So I definitely see what you’re saying. However the example you used is quite interesting because what if there are legitimate critiques on exposure therapy? My sister has BPD and I am convinced it is caused by untreated childhood PTSD. Of course I could be wrong but I have had psychologists told me that there is some overlap there. I am 100% open minded though to what I would learn in my studies and training. I would not put a wall up in that sense.
As far as case management and other things are concerned, I don’t really enjoy doing that stuff but I am just saying that it would be nice to have other job options should therapy burn me out at some point! I would have preferred doing assessments and a valuations as a side stream of income but it seems like a doctorate degree is out of reach. Thank you so much for your feedback. 🙂

Definitely don't want to derail your thread, but in this specific example: if a person has legitimate, scientifically-informed critiques of a therapy (or anything else), I'm all for it, and that's healthy for the field as a whole. The problem is when a person doesn't "believe" in something for personal reasons and then allows that belief to cloud their training, learning, and practice.

I'm paraphrasing and I've probably heard the story a few different times at this point, but I remember hearing during a conference talk by a well-known neuropsychologist that his response to someone saying they didn't believe in a particular type of assessment was akin to, "well luckily this is science, so what you believe is irrelevant." We certainly can't (and most times probably shouldn't) divorce ourselves from our beliefs, and they're going to influence and inform all that we do, but they also shouldn't interfere with our abilities to provide evidence-based care and other services, and to objectively receive new professional information.

 

[PsychGreen86]

Definitely don't want to derail your thread, but in this specific example: if a person has legitimate, scientifically-informed critiques of a therapy (or anything else), I'm all for it, and that's healthy for the field as a whole. The problem is when a person doesn't "believe" in something for personal reasons and then allows that belief to cloud their training, learning, and practice.

I'm paraphrasing and I've probably heard the story a few different times at this point, but I remember hearing during a conference talk by a well-known neuropsychologist that his response to someone saying they didn't believe in a particular type of assessment was akin to, "well luckily this is science, so what you believe is irrelevant." We certainly can't (and most times probably shouldn't) divorce ourselves from our beliefs, and they're going to influence and inform all that we do, but they also shouldn't interfere with our abilities to provide evidence-based care and other services, and to objectively receive new professional information.

I understand what you are saying. Thank you for expanding.

 

[cara susanna]

Thank you for your feedback. I know I have seen this before as well. For example, I worked extensively with my sons school in regards to getting services and I’ve seen other parents think they are experts because their child has some kind of disorder or disability when in reality the perspective you receive in training is going to be different. So I definitely see what you’re saying. However the example you used is quite interesting because what if there are legitimate critiques on exposure therapy? My sister has BPD and I am convinced it is caused by untreated childhood PTSD. Of course I could be wrong but I have had psychologists told me that there is some overlap there. I am 100% open minded though to what I would learn in my studies and training. I would not put a wall up in that sense.
As far as case management and other things are concerned, I don’t really enjoy doing that stuff but I am just saying that it would be nice to have other job options should therapy burn me out at some point! I would have preferred doing assessments and a valuations as a side stream of income but it seems like a doctorate degree is out of reach. Thank you so much for your feedback. 🙂

Sorry to derail your thread, but I wanted to chime in as someone with expertise in both PTSD and BPD...

There is overlap between BPD and trauma, and untreated PTSD can look like BPD, but the link tends to be overstated by the field as a whole. There is a study that found 75% of individuals with BPD had childhood trauma - which, sure, is a lot, but that means 25% of the sample didn't. One of the predominant theories is that BPD is caused by biological predisposition (more sensitive to emotions, etc) and then repeated environmental invalidation, which CAN be abuse but doesn't have to be.

There are legitimate critiques of exposure therapy, but I would argue that these would best stem from actual empirical evidence instead of "I did it and had a bad experience with it" or "it sounds awful." Exposure isn't fun to do at all, so of course some people might view it negatively or think it sounds awful. That doesn't mean it's actually harmful or ineffective.