Neuropsychological Testing for ADHD Diagnosis

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Cool, so they are punting the responsibility to you guys because they can't be bothered.

Honestly, IME, most of the Adult ADHD testing is garbage because unlike with school and home, you rarely get the chance to evaluate performance in two or more settings. Add to that the lack of sleep that is pervasive among adults and likely the cause of the majority of complaints in these cases and you cannot get an accurate dx. Gruber et al (2007) and Dan et al (2020) have shown that sleep deprivation affects performance on the CPT and other tasks in both children and young adults. So, the results in most cases would not improve the differential of ADHD vs sleep deprivation. So, the answer really should be that there is inadequate info to dx in most cases.
Along those same lines, I'm wondering what you all think about what constitutes "functional limitation" in the context of work. I'm thinking of someone I know who got an (adult) ADHD diagnosis partially on the basis of her finding it challenging to concentrate at work--but she's also an objectively successful academic (doctorate, full professor, ~$10 million in federal funding, 100+ publications, international reputation, etc), and it makes me wonder to what degree we should assess objective ability to do well at work v. subjective reports of impairment in adult ADHD diagnosis. On one hand, giftedness and ADHD can definitely co-exist; on the other hand, isn't there a point where everyone basically hits their limit, even if that point is relatively high?

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Along those same lines, I'm wondering what you all think about what constitutes "functional limitation" in the context of work. I'm thinking of someone I know who got an (adult) ADHD diagnosis partially on the basis of her finding it challenging to concentrate at work--but she's also an objectively successful academic (doctorate, full professor, ~$10 million in federal funding, 100+ publications, international reputation, etc), and it makes me wonder to what degree we should assess objective ability to do well at work v. subjective reports of impairment in adult ADHD diagnosis. On one hand, giftedness and ADHD can definitely co-exist; on the other hand, isn't there a point where everyone basically hits their limit, even if that point is relatively high?

I agree with you for the most part. I think my only hesitation would be if this is basically enabled by someone else managing the rest of this person's life (loyal spouse/personal assistant) and prevents it from being a dumpster fire due to forgotten obligations, domestic chaos, etc. In other words the classic "absent-minded professor" type.

Contra @Sanman , I think psychiatrists insist on this for four major reasons. One, adult psychiatrists often don't get tons of training about ADHD in residency and so are often not really comfortable with diagnosing it so feel de-skilled/out of their depths a lot of the time. Second, it is very uncomfortable to tell someone they absolutely cannot have the thing you have the power to give them and that they are insisting would be tremendously helpful to them and pleading that you are their last best hope. Third, no one likes being swindled and feeling like you have been co-opted into someone's substance trafficking is an awful feeling. Four, some people get incredibly escalated and nasty when you deny them these things or don't affirm their self-diagnosis. Punting to you guys is another roadblock they can throw up and hope the people wanting an ADHD diagnosis go away.

I can sort of sympathize, although at the end of the day I am an adult psychiatrist who does evaluate and treat appropriate adults for ADHD. As long as you take a very systematic approach/ use a semi-structured interview, it's really not that complicated most of the time. I am sure I have been conned at some point by someone but that is unavoidable and not a great reason to refuse care.
 
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I agree with you for the most part. I think my only hesitation would be if this is basically enabled by someone else managing the rest of this person's life (loyal spouse/personal assistant) and prevents it from being a dumpster fire due to forgotten obligations, domestic chaos, etc. In other words the classic "absent-minded professor" type.

Contra @Sanman , I think psychiatrists insist on this for four major reasons. One, adult psychiatrists often don't get tons of training about ADHD in residency and so are often not really comfortable with diagnosing it so feel de-skilled/out of their depths a lot of the time. Second, it is very uncomfortable to tell someone they absolutely cannot have the thing you have the power to give them and that they are insisting would be tremendously helpful to them and pleading that you are their last best hope. Third, no one likes being swindled and feeling like you have been co-opted into someone's substance trafficking is an awful feeling. Four, some people get incredibly escalated and nasty when you deny them these things or don't affirm their self-diagnosis. Punting to you guys is another roadblock they can throw up and hope the people wanting an ADHD diagnosis go away.

I can sort of sympathize, although at the end of the day I am an adult psychiatrist who does evaluate and treat appropriate adults for ADHD. As long as you take a very systematic approach/ use a semi-structured interview, it's really not that complicated most of the time. I am sure I have been conned at some point by someone but that is unavoidable and not a great reason to refuse care.

I feel like you are disagreeing with me while simultaneously making my point. Being uncomfortable saying no is not a reason for the referral. It is why they pay you guys the big(ger) bucks.
 
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I'm curious- most of the testing pre-auth forms I complete have a question along the lines of "If requesting testing for ADHD, explain why a comprehensive assessment is not sufficient" (where "comprehensive assessment" refers to the 90791 service code). For those of you who do testing for ADHD, how do you answer this question? Do you list "ADHD" as the focus diagnosis? When ask why it's necessary, would you actually put some of the reasons stated above on the pre-auth form? If you do all this, does the testing get approved? What batteries are you using to identify sufficient symptoms of ADHD?
 
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I feel like you are disagreeing with me while simultaneously making my point. Being uncomfortable saying no is not a reason for the referral. It is why they pay you guys the big(ger) bucks.

Right, I certainly agree that we should not be punting this if we have anything like the clinical experience/training to assess it. And I don't in my practice. I was taking issue with "can't be bothered", when the real answer is, "inadequate distress tolerance".
 
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Right, I certainly agree that we should not be punting this if we have anything like the clinical experience/training to assess it. And I don't in my practice. I was taking issue with "can't be bothered", when the real answer is, "inadequate distress tolerance".

Fair enough, but I have been around long enough to know that plenty of other providers (psychology, psychiatry, PCPs) simply do not want to deal with a difficult patient even if they have the ability to do so. There is no money or RVUs in it. We get a lot of dumps like this in geriatrics and it annoys me to no end. These people can do the homework and help the patient rather than leaving the (uncompensated) work to others. There is no consultation, simply a consult or request to transfer the patient. I had a few of these last week and wasted most of a day on non-RVU generating stuff. With the new focus on RVUs at the VA, the problem is more pronounced recently.
 
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EXACTLY. In our clinic, and apparently many others, the neuropsych testing is a hoop the patient has to jump through before they can get the diagnosis and, consequently, meds. And I get the impression it's because doctors are reluctant to prescribe stimulants without the patient having to demonstrate some effort. Which is fine, I totally get that, but to me "should this patient get meds?" is a separate issue from "does the patient have this diagnosis?" We even have psychiatrists who will make the patient do testing here after they've already been diagnosed by another provider, even in the same system, if that diagnosis wasn't obtained through psych testing.

This is further complicated by two things: 1) our neuropsych dept is over a 90 min drive away and 2) neuropsych testing in the community is really, really backlogged. To make a patient drive or wait for neuropsych testing when evidence suggests it's not necessary, to me is NOT patient-centered care.



Not in VA mental health. We've had patients who've been on stimulants for years in the community who then lose their insurance, come into our system, and are told they need psych testing before they can get meds from us. Even if they were diagnosed or did testing as a kid, they have to redo it unless they can get a copy of the previous testing. And, at least here, Primary Care refuses to prescribe them. Then they see me, I diagnose ADHD (wow, go figure) and then they get meds. The thing is, my psychologist colleagues and I are not necessary for this. Any licensed mental health provider could do what we are doing for our current ADHD assessment practice, minus the MMPI-2 or PAI that we include for a validity check. It's only delaying the patient's care.
To me neuropsych testing is very helpful for all the points I wrote above.
I do not work for the va and do not take testing that rubbers stamps add. We will have to agree to disagree.
 
Fair enough, but I have been around long enough to know that plenty of other providers (psychology, psychiatry, PCPs) simply do not want to deal with a difficult patient even if they have the ability to do so. There is no money or RVUs in it. We get a lot of dumps like this in geriatrics and it annoys me to no end. These people can do the homework and help the patient rather than leaving the (uncompensated) work to others. There is no consultation, simply a consult or request to transfer the patient. I had a few of these last week and wasted most of a day on non-RVU generating stuff. With the new focus on RVUs at the VA, the problem is more pronounced recently.
Yes who wants to waste their time on that is correct. Now the VA is finally catching up with the other hospitals by doing rvu.
 
I'm curious- most of the testing pre-auth forms I complete have a question along the lines of "If requesting testing for ADHD, explain why a comprehensive assessment is not sufficient" (where "comprehensive assessment" refers to the 90791 service code). For those of you who do testing for ADHD, how do you answer this question? Do you list "ADHD" as the focus diagnosis? When ask why it's necessary, would you actually put some of the reasons stated above on the pre-auth form? If you do all this, does the testing get approved? What batteries are you using to identify sufficient symptoms of ADHD?
I don't ever fill those forms out - but my gut would say something like testing is needed to differentiate adhd from intellectual disability in order to inform diagnoses and treatment.
 
This ADHD test allows you to conduct a comprehensive cognitive screening, learn weak and strong cognitive skills and assess the risk index of the presence of depression.

The learning styles/utility of strengths and weaknesses intervention work lacks strong empirical support. And, far easier ways to assess depression.
 
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This ADHD test allows you to conduct a comprehensive cognitive screening, learn weak and strong cognitive skills and assess the risk index of the presence of depression.

But, as we've talked about, cognitive screening isn't helpful for establishing a ADHD diagnosis.
 
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This ADHD test allows you to conduct a comprehensive cognitive screening, learn weak and strong cognitive skills and assess the risk index of the presence of depression.
That's all very facinatin....

But, if you have ADHD (with continued significant functional impairment into adulthood), you will get a simulant and a referral for therapy to address anything that may be comorbid with it. All this "strengths and weaknesses" stuff is mostly academic musings and doesn't change the treatment plan or ultimate outcome. If you want to pay for it, be my guest. But lets not expect someone else to.

Also, what the f is?
risk index of the presence of depression
 
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Inserting this into the discussion, since really I think we're mainly talking about adults in this thread. Though I tend to agree that cognitive testing is an expensive way to rule something out, it's not like the behavioral rating scales and the clinical interview alone are enshrined in gold either. ADHD assessment is just tricky with adults given incentives to malinger, poor retrospective insight into one's own experiences, and multiple etiologies for symptom presentations.

Marshall, P., Hoelzle, J., & Nikolas, M. (2021). Diagnosing Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in young adults: A qualitative review of the utility of assessment measures and recommendations for improving the diagnostic process. The Clinical Neuropsychologist, 35(1), 165-198.
 
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Inserting this into the discussion, since really I think we're mainly talking about adults in this thread. Though I tend to agree that cognitive testing is an expensive way to rule something out, it's not like the behavioral rating scales and the clinical interview alone are enshrined in gold either. ADHD assessment is just tricky with adults given incentives to malinger, poor retrospective insight into one's own experiences, and multiple etiologies for symptom presentations.

Marshall, P., Hoelzle, J., & Nikolas, M. (2021). Diagnosing Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in young adults: A qualitative review of the utility of assessment measures and recommendations for improving the diagnostic process. The Clinical Neuropsychologist, 35(1), 165-198.

Thanks for sharing. I also agree that ADHD assessment is tricky and behavioral rating scales/clinical interviews aren't fantastic. The thing is, I think that neuropsych testing gives a false credence to ADHD diagnosis and assessment that the former do not.
 
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Thanks for sharing. I also agree that ADHD assessment is tricky and behavioral rating scales/clinical interviews aren't fantastic. The thing is, I think that neuropsych testing gives a false credence to ADHD diagnosis and assessment that the former do not.

For sure. An ADHD dx doesn’t need to be rarified by neuropsychology for it to be valid. I just was pointing out that the alternatives to cognitive testing have their own limitations, so they shouldn’t be hailed as some bulletproof alternative.
 
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Tangentially related as well: can anyone recommend any recent articles on when children/adolescents with a question of adhd should be referred to neuropsych? I always have a lot of back and forth with my physician referrals about when to send to me. Obviously the AAP guidelines don’t support neuropsych in standard cases, but I would love some good data on when it’s appropriate to do so.
 
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For sure. An ADHD dx doesn’t need to be rarified by neuropsychology for it to be valid. I just was pointing out that the alternatives to cognitive testing have their own limitations, so they shouldn’t be hailed as some bulletproof alternative.

Oh yeah, definitely agree. Which is why I think that only having psychologists do ADHD "testing" in our clinic makes zero sense.
 
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Tangentially related as well: can anyone recommend any recent articles on when children/adolescents with a question of adhd should be referred to neuropsych? I always have a lot of back and forth with my physician referrals about when to send to me. Obviously the AAP guidelines don’t support neuropsych in standard cases, but I would love some good data on when it’s appropriate to do so.
I would also love some good data on this - cuz I generally just use professional judgment.

I have no articles about that per se. As someone who does a ton of child/adolescent evaluations - I refer out for a neuropsychologist eval when there is a primary medical or central nervous system diagnosis (e..g., epilepsy, CP, etc.), a recognized risk factor for brain damage (e.g., some genetic/metabolic disorders), and there is a question of organic vs. psych etiology in those cases and that testing will be more informative to treatment planning, add a more accurate prognosis, and provide anticipatory guidance than my standard testing. I also tend to refer out to the NPs when the kid needs more extensive memory testing and I worried about getting a good baseline.

In these cases, I often let the neuropsych do their work, and then I will see them for academic/adaptive testing. I do have a personal peeve about neuropsychologists diagnosing ADHD by another name (sometimes I see something like "other specified neurocognitive disorder due to executive functioning in childhood yada yada").

In the real world, it tends to be a case by case basis. For instance, I will send a kid for neuropsych testing if their medical condition is not stable (e.g., they have intractable epilepsy) and I am worried about a future decreases in functioning. Or if there is something really funky going - like i'm worried about a psychosis prodrome or another serious psychiatric concern. However, I do tons of testing on kids with epilepsy if they're fairly stable.

But, for the vast majority of kids a standard psychoeducational evaluation for ADHD is not really to assess for ADHD as much as it to assess for comorbidities. It's more about ruling out things like parenting issues, intellectual disability, learning disorders, depression/anxiety, ODD and other comorbidities. For every kid I do a full eval on, I generally decline to test one because it's just pretty obvious they have ADHD and a full eval just isn't needed (unless the parents want it). I generally provide some psychoed (I can make a run through of that if ppl want) on ADHD and the need for meds, and then refer out, with follow ups where I generally act as liaison between prescriber and parents and do some parenting work. They usually stop coming when they find a med that works, though.
 
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Tangentially related as well: can anyone recommend any recent articles on when children/adolescents with a question of adhd should be referred to neuropsych? I always have a lot of back and forth with my physician referrals about when to send to me. Obviously the AAP guidelines don’t support neuropsych in standard cases, but I would love some good data on when it’s appropriate to do so.
I mean, yes, there are articles and "data" out there on this. It's quite mixed...and hard to apply to any one particular case in front of you.

It's mostly just a question of ROI (monetary and time/resources and improving treatment outcomes) and perhaps unintentionally "muddying the waters" with too much data, too much speculation around said data, and too many recommendations. Keep in mind that more data points is not always "better" in terms of presenting a clearer diagnostic picture and/or improving or streamlining a treatment plan. Especially if you aren't actually treating that patient. I'm sure you know that lots of things get lost in communication amongst providers?

For simplicity sake, if there is known neurological compromise/risk or current or former medical conditions that could legitimately be contributing to the clinical presentation/symptoms, I think a neuropsych can be justified in children/adolescents. In those kind of cases, ADHD is probably just one consideration in light of other possible neuropsychiatric/cognitive disorders, right?

I think what gets confused here is the question of/need for REALLY looking at the patient's issues/symptoms? No one is advocating for just talking to a patient and/or a patient and parents for an hour (or less) and then just making this diagnosis. No one is saying that! Sometimes, it takes some time. And in the case of adolescents and adults...maybe a few meeting with a treating physician or mental health therapist over time. This is just the reality of it. I really don't understand the rush?

ADHD is the most common diagnosis in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry outside depression and anxiety. At this point, it should be "bread-and-butter" for any currently practicing psychiatrist. I have never really understood their issue with this diagnosis? If the claimed objection is "time with patient"..... I really think this is a problem of their own making (and sometimes imagination) and not even valid given the variety of billing codes that are at their disposal.
 
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Good points all around. I’m housed within peds neurology, so they have a good idea of when neuropsych is indicated in general, especially with our epilepsy and other neuro/medical disease patients. They’ve been slammed with developmental cases that end up to be adhd differentials. I want to be helpful while utilizing my services appropriately. Tough balance as an early career psych to build a service while getting comfortable asserting myself and trying to give clear guidelines on how to triage cases to providers as well as support staff. I much prefer the medical/neurological disorders, but I’ll get these cases whether I like it or not.

[mention]borne_before [/mention] I would love to hear more about your approach, DM if you prefer. I’m always interested in others’ approaches.
 
I'll still haven't seen anyone discuss the actual batteries they would use and what results would be indicative of ADHD vs. some of the other conditions. If I requested that on an insurance auth request form, I'd be denied. Those of you doing NP batteries where ADHD is in question- Do you actually tell the funders that is what you are doing?
 
I'll still haven't seen anyone discuss the actual batteries they would use and what results would be indicative of ADHD vs. some of the other conditions. If I requested that on an insurance auth request form, I'd be denied. Those of you doing NP batteries where ADHD is in question- Do you actually tell the funders that is what you are doing?

Not all of the time. Way back when I did some PT insurance review work. We'd deny payment all the time as providers would be doing things that the testing EOB clearly stated were not reimbursable.
 
For NPs on the thread... I struggle to diagnose attention-deficit disorder when there is no evidence of an attention deficit. How do others negotiate this?
 
For NPs on the thread... I struggle to diagnose attention-deficit disorder when there is no evidence of an attention deficit. How do others negotiate this?

Traditional neuropsych measures do not necessarily do a good job at measuring the different aspects of attention which may affect someone with ADHD.
 
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Traditional neuropsych measures do not necessarily do a good job at measuring the different aspects of attention which may affect someone with ADHD.
Hmm. OK. What about in the absence of true functional impairment?
 
Traditional neuropsych measures do not necessarily do a good job at measuring the different aspects of attention which may affect someone with ADHD.
In addition to this, we know there are those (e.g., Barkley) who conceptualize ADHD more as a disruption of executive functioning than attention, per se (with trickle-down effects on attention, among other things).

So yes, absence of objective impairment/weakness on cognitive attention testing does not rule-out ADHD. Hence why the diagnostic criteria are behaviorally-anchored. A person might do fine on, say, Stroop, but still not be able to sit through an entire TV show or movie, or not cut people off in conversations.
 
For NPs on the thread... I struggle to diagnose attention-deficit disorder when there is no evidence of an attention deficit. How do others negotiate this?

What does the DSM say about this?
 
Hmm. OK. What about in the absence of true functional impairment?

That is where your clinical judgment comes to play. As the DSM related that the symptoms need to interfere with, or reduce the quality of functioning in certain domains. So, you'd need to decide, to an extent, where that threshold lies. Also within the context of how much they may be challenged, or how they have changed their environment to compensate.
 
What does the DSM say about this?

There's an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood with a pasta on the menu called "manila clams" -- Nowhere in the description does it mention clams. But, still, when it comes to my table there are clams in it.

In the DSM, the diagnosis is "attention-defiict/hyperactivity disorder," so objective evidence of an "attention deficit" or "hyperactivity" seems implied. Similarly the diagnosis is classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, which implies a brain-behavior/neuropsychological foundation.

Also, what are the group's thoughts on critiques of ADHD as a meaningful diagnostic label? (link: Doctor: ADHD Does Not Exist)

That is where your clinical judgment comes to play. As the DSM related that the symptoms need to interfere with, or reduce the quality of functioning in certain domains. So, you'd need to decide, to an extent, where that threshold lies. Also within the context of how much they may be challenged, or how they have changed their environment to compensate.

I very rarely use ADHD as a diagnostic label in my (adult) practice, for this reason -- I guess I have a high bar for classifying "impairment." More often than not, I'm encountering someone with more of a cogniform presentation (subjective complaints in the absence of objective difficulties), substance use (cannabis is a biggie), or a missed/misdiagnosed anxiety or mood disorder, like bipolar, or some combination thereof.
 
There's an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood with a pasta on the menu called "manila clams" -- Nowhere in the description does it mention clams. But, still, when it comes to my table there are clams in it.

In the DSM, the diagnosis is "attention-defiict/hyperactivity disorder," so objective evidence of an "attention deficit" or "hyperactivity" seems implied. Similarly the diagnosis is classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, which implies both a brain-behavior and developmental (childhood onset) foundation.

Also, what are the group's thoughts on critiques of ADHD as a meaningful diagnostic label? (link: Doctor: ADHD Does Not Exist)



I very rarely use ADHD as a diagnostic label in my (adult) practice, for this reason -- I guess I have a high bar for classifying "impairment." More often than not, I'm encountering someone with more of a cogniform presentation (subjective complaints in the absence of objective difficulties), substance use (cannabis is a biggie), or a missed/misdiagnosed anxiety or mood disorder, like bipolar, or some combination thereof.

I meant the criteria.
 
There's an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood with a pasta on the menu called "manila clams" -- Nowhere in the description does it mention clams. But, still, when it comes to my table there are clams in it.

In the DSM, the diagnosis is "attention-defiict/hyperactivity disorder," so objective evidence of an "attention deficit" or "hyperactivity" seems implied. Similarly the diagnosis is classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, which implies both a brain-behavior foundation.

Also, what are the group's thoughts on critiques of ADHD as a meaningful diagnostic label? (link: Doctor: ADHD Does Not Exist)



I very rarely use ADHD as a diagnostic label in my (adult) practice, for this reason -- I guess I have a high bar for classifying "impairment." More often than not, I'm encountering someone with more of a cogniform presentation (subjective complaints in the absence of objective difficulties), substance use (cannabis is a biggie), or a missed/misdiagnosed anxiety or mood disorder, like bipolar, or some combination thereof.

As for the book, I'd suggest looking at Dr. Saul's credentials to see how much credence I'd give to his crank claims.

As for the diagnosis. If, after a competent review of history and symptoms, you find an alternative explanation that fully, or mostly accounts for the symptoms, then, by all means, diagnose something else.
 
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As for the book, I'd suggest looking at Dr. Saul's credentials to see how much credence I'd give to his crank claims.

As for the diagnosis. If, after a competent review of history and symptoms, you find an alternative explanation that fully, or mostly accounts for the symptoms, then, by all means, diagnose something else.
Agreed. The diagnosis itself has been around for 100+ years and has held up relatively well over that time. Like everything else, it may subsume a few different conditions, which over the years they learn more about (e.g., sluggish cognitive tempo).

To determine impairment in an adult, it can be tricky, and may require contacting a spouse/partner/friend. The patient may think they manage relatively well, but if their significant other is in the room, you'll get the "oh God no" face. It could also be the case that if a person is getting things done, but is needing to use excessive amounts of time and energy for compensatory strategies or is still underachieving (which may be a judgment call), it could reflect clinically-significant distress.

But yes, if you have a half-dozen other possible explanations that seem more likely, treat those first and then see what's left. Although keep in mind it can also be the case that untreated ADHD can cause/contribute to things like anxiety and depression, and I believe there's research to suggest that treating ADHD actually reduces the likelihood of substance use/abuse (but I'd need to double-check that).
 
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There's an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood with a pasta on the menu called "manila clams" -- Nowhere in the description does it mention clams. But, still, when it comes to my table there are clams in it.

In the DSM, the diagnosis is "attention-defiict/hyperactivity disorder," so objective evidence of an "attention deficit" or "hyperactivity" seems implied. Similarly the diagnosis is classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, which implies a brain-behavior/neuropsychological foundation.

Also, what are the group's thoughts on critiques of ADHD as a meaningful diagnostic label? (link: Doctor: ADHD Does Not Exist)



I very rarely use ADHD as a diagnostic label in my (adult) practice, for this reason -- I guess I have a high bar for classifying "impairment." More often than not, I'm encountering someone with more of a cogniform presentation (subjective complaints in the absence of objective difficulties), substance use (cannabis is a biggie), or a missed/misdiagnosed anxiety or mood disorder, like bipolar, or some combination thereof.

This might help you:

 
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Shouting into the void a little here, but this my script for how I explain ADHD to patients/parents. Before you yell at me for over simplifying it, please hold your critique because I totally am. Most people aren't psychologists and if you're dealing with a kiddo who has ADHD chances are at least one parent has it.

1. ADHD stands for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder and it's probably the single most misunderstood childhood condition by the media, general population, and those who have it because no one ever takes the time to discuss it! This disorder has had numerous different labels through the years including hyperactive child syndrome, hyperkinetic reaction of childhood, minimal brain dysfunction, and attention deficit disorder. Hyperactive kids have been discussed in the medical literature for at least 300 years - it's not a condition of modernity (although we can discuss how modern circumstances might make more obvious and why it exists). Why minimal brain damage? Because kids with ADHD act a lot like people after they have had a mild head insult, but without the obvious traumatic event that lead to a change is functioning. At this point I go to explain what the frontal lobe does, and might even talk about Phineas Gage to help them understand how it affects all sorts of things. Later we will discuss what's actually going on the frontal lobe with kids who have ADHD.

2. The "attention deficit" part of ADHD is largely a misnomer. ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder - that means you're born with it, and it generally doesn't go away. In fact, those with ADHD are at risk for some pretty horrible outcomes if it is not treated. For example, people with ADHD are like 2x as likely to by age forty and like no one really dies by age forty. Why? - mostly car accidents, risk taking, and other poor decisions.

2a. Attention is not really the problem in ADHD. If you think of attn as the light a flashlight that shines conscious awareness on things, those with ADHD have just as a good of flashlight as you and me. ADHD is a that impacts how good you shine that flashlight, do you keep it where it needs to be or do you jump around with it all willy nilly?

2b. The thing that controls where we point our flashlight is the frontal lobe. One way we talk about what it does are with the term "executive functions" and frontal lobe is where they live. Do you remember those old cartoons where Bugs Bunny is contemplating doing something naughty and a devil bugs and angel bugs pop up on his shoulder? Forget the devil part, but the executive functions act a lot like the angel or "mom" on your shoulder who helps you plan, think ahead, regulate emotions, get you back to work, and run behavioral simulations in your mind. They say hey (although this is an instantaneous nonverbal computer program always running in the back that say "hey get back to work" or "dude, remember how you want to do good in your class you can get that praise from the teacher" or even "dude, I know getting yelled at or told what to do sucks, but it just easier in the long run if you listen to your parents" or even "how does this look to others." Executive functions also help to regulate emotions (an overlooked part of ADHD). I might even pull up this: Figure 2.1 Diagram of Barkley Model of behavioral inhibition, executive... at this point if the parent is capable and run through it.

3. At this point the parents are starting to wonder what we can do about ADHD. At this point, I draw a graph that with ADHD symptoms on the left side and I 1, 2, 3, 4 (sometimes), on the bottom. This graph outlines the MTA study. I say " The first study that really clarified how to treat ADHD was done with 600 kids who all had ADHD was the MTA study. At the beginning of the study they took the kids and put them for groups-each a different treatment condition." All 4 groups of kids had high levels of ADHD because of her kids with ADHD. The first group they gave him high-quality behavioral therapy. That resulted in some symptom reduction. The second group they gave him Ritalin. Later studies show that up to 75% of kids with ADHD normalized when given a stimulant. The third group received behavioral therapy and medication. They also had a ton of symptom reduction, but mathematically you could not tell them apart on main measures of attention and hyperactivity. The fourth group was community treatment as usual, and they have like no change in symptoms." The study has been replicated a lot.

4. I then go on to talk about how dopamine is implicated in ADHD. I draw pictures to neurons and I say something like for if this neuron wants to send a message to this one, it needs to pass them a note - just like in class. Instead of a pen a paper, braincells uses chemicals. The neurotransmitter most implicated in ADHD is called dopamine. Put simply, people with ADHD have less dopamine than they need. This kind of means that there brain is "underactive." Wild, huh, because behaviorally they are so busy -counterintuitive, right? Dopamine does a lot of different things in the brain. 1 thing it does is makes boring tasks more tolerable. People without any ADHD are able to focus because they have a normal amount of dopamine and focusing on going things is more "pleasurable" to them. Or, it also helps them think ahead, because it makes the frontal lobe more active. Sometimes, a draw an "EKG." This is why your ADHD kids can focus on video games but not math - videogames with their social aspect, colors, interesting storylines, intermittent reinforcement help make a ton of dopamine.

4a. This is why meds are so important. Meds and ADHD are a lot like giving someone with diabetes insulin or someone with astigmatism glasses–they do not cure those condition, but they sure do make outcomes better. I'll even talk about their history, safety, and outcomes...

5. ADHD is tricky. One reason it is tricky is because kids with ADHD are just as intelligent as you or me. However, the way executive functions work,means they have trouble doing what they know. This is why nagging or giving tons of explanations does not seem to change their behavior. ADHD is not a disorder of "knowing what to do" rather, is a disorder of "doing what they know." The rubber just does not meet the road, even though their engine is pretty good.

6. What causes ADHD. ADHD is highly genetic. If you have an identical twin with ADHD, your chance of having it is like >80%. It runs in families. ADHD is not a modern condition. Although no single gene causes ADHD, some of the genetic analyses show that it is inherited and in evolutionary probands. One thing that kids with ADHD are really good is not thinking about the risks. An idea that some people floated is that people with ADHD helped the group to eat more back in caveman times, because they would not think twice about jumping on a flailing mammoth and bashing his head and with a rock, even though that is a very dangerous task. We know that it is a real condition because people with ADHD have very poor outcomes compared to those without it. I will outline some of those if I want to. ADHD was not caused by anything you did. You are not a lazy or bad parent.

7. I talked about medication and the need to find the most effective one. At first, it is a little bit of a guessing game. Most people respond well to Ritalin or Adderall. But, "isn't that just meth." Sort of, there is a brand name for methamphetamine that you can get cleared for narcolepsy and ADHD. It is called Desoxyn. The generic name for Adderall is mixed amphetamine salts. Amphetamines have been given to kids with ADHD since the 1930s. Taken orally, at therapeutic doses, they are really not scary. Amphetamine is a way better stimulant, in terms of safety, than even something like caffeine. Kids who take stimulants are less likely to abuse drugs in high school, because it turns up their executive functions. Sometimes, they work a little too well and get affective blunting. That means he may need a different class of stimulant or reduction in dose. There are literally 100s of different kinds of medication, even nonstimulants, that can really help ADHD. But there is a reason, that stimulants are the first-line treatment. The safety of stimulants in children has likely been study more than Tylenol people give Tylenol all the time. But there are some risks, as they are with any meds. The most important things that finding the right med is a conversation to have with your prescriber and I am here to help you communicate your concerns and needs to the prescriber if you need me.

8. Do not waste time on changing diets–that usually leads to a lot of conflict and does not really change behavior. Talk therapy for ADHD is usually a waste of time - unless the kid has anxiety or depression (30% of those with adhd do). What can really help are parent driven interventions targeting impulsivity, oppositionality, and compliance. But a lot of times when the meds start hitting, parents no longer feel the need to that, either.

Again, highly simplistic/reduced. I probably left some stuff out. But, I see a tons of "aha" moments with this type of discussion. Sometimes I'll talk a little bit more about why those with ADHD have big emotional reactions and are responding with normal emotions for the situation.
 
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We had someone we sent for community neuropsych testing diagnosed with "acquired ADHD" (no childhood symptoms). That's a new one to me...
 
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This is a new one, haven't seen that label yet myself.
I've seen that label a few times at my AMC for like post-TBI attention problems / executive dysfunction.
 
I've seen that label a few times at my AMC for like post-TBI attention problems / executive dysfunction.

I don't see why a provider wouldn't label it as such, then. It's easy enough to diagnose a mild/major neurocog d/o 2x TBI. Why give in inaccurate diagnosis? Specifically one that insurance companies would flag and possibly deny payment for?
 
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I've seen that label a few times at my AMC for like post-TBI attention problems / executive dysfunction.

But that disorder is not "acquired." This is pretty explicitly noted in the DSM. Attention and/or behavioral problems due to TBI can be.
 
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We had someone we sent for community neuropsych testing diagnosed with "acquired ADHD" (no childhood symptoms). That's a new one to me...

Yeah, makes no sense to me either. So, did they acquire a TBI or did they acquire an ADHD diagnosis from some guy that likes money?
 
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But that disorder is not "acquired." This is pretty explicitly noted in the DSM. Attention and/or behavioral problems due to TBI can be.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the diagnostic criteria, attention deficits, and the literature and conceptualizations of TBI and ADHD.

That there are licensed providers out there doing this kind of stuff helps with any imposter syndrome as a student.

Yeah, makes no sense to me either. So, did they acquire a TBI or did they acquire an ADHD diagnosis from some guy that likes money?
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It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the diagnostic criteria, attention deficits, and the literature and conceptualizations of TBI and ADHD.

That there are licensed providers out there doing this kind of stuff helps with any imposter syndrome as a student.


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Wait until one of these people has direct authority over you via a supervising role.
 
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Haha, this isn't even TBI. It's "acquired" due to PTSD.

I'm glad others are having the same reaction I did upon hearing it.
 
Haha, this isn't even TBI. It's "acquired" due to PTSD.

I'm glad others are having the same reaction I did upon hearing it.
Uhhh...so you (i.e., that provider, not you specifically, cara) mean concentration problems resulting from a persisting traumatic stress reaction? Sorta like what's specifically described by symptom E5 of PTSD in DSM-5?

This is where that "not better explained by another mental health disorder" part of the ADHD diagnosis really should have helped them out a bit.
 
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Uhhh...so you (i.e., that provider, not you specifically, cara) mean concentration problems resulting from a persisting traumatic stress reaction? Sorta like what's specifically described by symptom E5 of PTSD in DSM-5?

This is where that "not better explained by another mental health disorder" part of the ADHD diagnosis really should have helped them out a bit.

Haha, this isn't even TBI. It's "acquired" due to PTSD.

I'm glad others are having the same reaction I did upon hearing it.
And....this is EXACTLY what I was/am talking about with my "muddying the waters" soapbox rant above. Post #12. I wish I could give this rant to every psychologist in the world!
 
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We had someone we sent for community neuropsych testing diagnosed with "acquired ADHD" (no childhood symptoms). That's a new one to me...
I've also been sent several patients for evaluation who have been diagnosed with "adult onset ADHD" by other psychologists or neurologists, which is also a head-scratcher.
 
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Uhhh...so you (i.e., that provider, not you specifically, cara) mean concentration problems resulting from a persisting traumatic stress reaction? Sorta like what's specifically described by symptom E5 of PTSD in DSM-5?

This is where that "not better explained by another mental health disorder" part of the ADHD diagnosis really should have helped them out a bit.

Crappy diagnosis drives me nuts! It is like when I see patients with a problem list of PTSD, depressive disorder, anxiety disorder, insomnia. No, you do not need to diagnose every symptom of the first thing separately.
 
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