Neuropsychology

[chicoborja]

I have a question about the route to neuropsychology. Are all post-doctoral fellowships 2 yrs? If your clinical psychology program is not APA or CPA accredited, can you still be accepted into a neuro fellowship? Are neuropsychologists trained to do EEGs/Evoked Potentials/Intraoperative Monitoring at all? Thanks for your time with my ignorant questions?

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[Sanman]

Most neuropsychology post-docs are 3 years because that is what you need to be ABCN certified. You don't need a post-doc to practice neuropsych, but I reccomend it. Second, it will be more difficult to get a post-doc if your program isn't accredited since competition is getting stiff for them, bu it als depends why they aren't accredited ( new program. don't mmet educational standards, etc.). Some neuropsychologists are trained in EEGs and things, it all depends on your program. Anyone else got info?

 

[chicoborja]

Yeah, the post-doc at OUHSC is only 2 years. On the ABCN website, it said that certification requires 3 years of experience in neuro (of which 1 year of the fellowship may count towards). I also got the impression that if you've worked in the field for 3 years then you dont actually need a fellowship to become board certified. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's just how it came across to me.

 

[Sanman]

whoops, sorry about the typo, I meant most post-docs are 2 years. I believe jon snow is right about the rquirements.

 

[dwaterhead]

So for the next...2-3 years I wont have an income? & can you start to practice once you get licensed and pass the exams before you complete the Psy.D?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

So for the next...2-3 years I wont have an income? & can you start to practice once you get licensed and pass the exams before you complete the Psy.D?

It is a long road, but it isn't completely unpaid, as most programs will have some sort of funding, whether it is in the form of a tuition waiver, stipend, $ for TA/RA work, or related options. Typically the funding is a combination of a few different funding sources. Most people will still have to take out at least some loans if they are going to school in an expensive place like NYC, but others go to school in a cheap place and can live more comfortably on their stipend.

This is a very basic overview....you should do a lot more reading on the forum if you want to learn the particulars, as it would take days to explain everything in detail.

Grad school: 4-5 years (typically)
Internship: 1 year (Paid...but not much, $20k-$25k for the year)
Fellowship: 2 years (Paid...but not much better, $25k-$50k each year)

Graduate school typically lasts 4-5 years. During that time you will take classes, do research (towards your dissertation), probably TA/teach, complete practica training, etc. Some people will defend their dissertation before going on internship, while others will defending during or after internship. Most programs will allow you to go on internship as long as your dissertation is moving along, but you cannot graduate until you have completed all of your classes, completed internship, and successfully defended your dissertation.

Internship is 1 year, and most people will need to relocate to complete their intern year. Some people get lucky and they can land an internship in or near their training program, but the internship process is very competitive so you pretty much have to apply all over the country. ~75% of people will match to an internship site.

If you want to work as a neuropsychologist, you will need to complete a 2 year fellowship program, and the programs all agree to use the same match system that is used for internship. Neuro Match is a bit different because now you are just competing with neuropsychology students. ~55% of people will match to a fellowship site. The remaining students will either do something else, re-apply next year, and/or they will apply to sites that don't participate in the "official" fellowship match process.

Once on fellowship you will work under the supervision of a neuropsychologist and do a bunch of additional training. After your first year you will be elligible to get licensed (as long as you pass the national exam), many programs don't require you to be licensed to complete your second year....though some do. As long as you successfully get licensed and complete your 2 year fellowship....now you are a neuropsycholgist.*

*Some people don't go the formal training route of completing a fellowship program, but they still practice neuropsychology. Some states allow this, other states are more stringent. In general, the neuropsychology world does not support people practicing as neuropsychologists without completing a 2 year fellowship program. There are also 1 year fellowship programs...but they are sort of a No-Man's Land, as they don't meet the Houston Guidelines (the gold standard for neuropsychology training), but they typically offer more training than a random 1 year post-doc somewhere.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Just one addendum to T4C's post regarding the fellowship match--while many/most sites do participate, including nearly all APPCN and Division 40 member programs, there are sites that choose not to be a part of the match for whatever reason. This doesn't necessarily mean that the sites don't meet Houston/Div. 40 guidelines for training in neuropsychology, just that they aren't in the match. Some of these sites have solid reputations and "name branding," (e.g., Johns Hopkins) and thus can attract quality applicants whether or not they participate in the match. Others may not meet match criteria. I believe there might also be some disparity based on geography, although I'm not positive on that.

If a site isn't in the match, though, you will need to verify on your own that it'll meet criteria for boarding in neuropsych (if that's your ultimate goal).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

AA, good point. I know one of the Hopkins spots and the UCLA clinical track program both withdrew from the match last year. They were both founding members of the APPCN match and are obviously top training sites, so there are some good sites outside of the match, though I think most still consider "match" to be the most common path. UCLA offers both clinical and research tracks in neuropsychology, and per their application they say to check with ABPP about boarding options, though I have a hard time believing that someone studying out there wouldn't qualify to sit for boarding. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

AA, good point. I know one of the Hopkins spots and the UCLA clinical track program both withdrew from the match last year. They were both founding members of the APPCN match and are obviously top training sites, so there are some good sites outside of the match, though I think most still consider "match" to be the most common path. UCLA offers both clinical and research tracks in neuropsychology, and per their application they say to check with ABPP about boarding options, though I have a hard time believing that someone studying out there wouldn't qualify to sit for boarding. Just my 2 cents.

Very good point as well--some of the post-docs at top sites, such as UCLA, might not participate in the match because they're more highly-focused on research than clinical work. While that structure may or may not strictly adhere to APPCN/Houston guidelines, as you've said, I wouldn't imagine a fellow from those sites would receive significant grief if they were to pursue boarding (assuming they got in ample clinical work during grad school and internship, and had a decent amount of exposure as a post-doc).

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Sites participate or not in the APPCN match because they want to pick their choice of candidate; I'm not sure there is any other reason. They want a specific person and do not want to leave it to chance.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Sites participate or not in the APPCN match because they want to pick their choice of candidate; I'm not sure there is any other reason. They want a specific person and do not want to leave it to chance.

I'm not sure if that's the only reason, but that's definitely the one I've heard informally mentioned most often, as they're allowed to a) have full control in selecting applicants themselves, and b) do so before the match deadline to try and grab their top choice(s).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sites participate or not in the APPCN match because they want to pick their choice of candidate; I'm not sure there is any other reason. They want a specific person and do not want to leave it to chance.

That is the word on the street, as some sites (not implying those two) have gotten burned in recent years by having to go deeper into their rank list than they expected. Rehab fellowship programs don't have a match, so they have been picking off top applicants for years, so I can see the draw to want better control over who you get. UCLA definitely leans heavier on the research end of things across the board, so it isn't surprising that they pulled out. I'm surprised some of the other research heavy sites haven't followed suit: UMich, UAB, etc.

 

[neuronic]

Hi. Just to add my two cents about the low post-doc match % rate of 55%. While that may sound low, I have heard from multiple post-docs and faculty that the numbers are skewed by a number of applicants who should not even be applying for a post-doc in neuropsychology (e.g., people who think they can re-specialize on post-doc from another area). That is, most of the people who do not match have not completed a 50% time neuropsych internship, or have come from a graduate school program with an emphasis track in neuropsych. With that said, they say it's actually easier to match for post-doc than internship if you have true training in neuropsych throughout your career.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hi. Just to add my two cents about the low post-doc match % rate of 55%. While that may sound low, I have heard from multiple post-docs and faculty that the numbers are skewed by a number of applicants who should not even be applying for a post-doc in neuropsychology (e.g., people who think they can re-specialize on post-doc from another area). That is, most of the people who do not match have not completed a 50% time neuropsych internship, or have come from a graduate school program with an emphasis track in neuropsych. With that said, they say it's actually easier to match for post-doc than internship if you have true training in neuropsych throughout your career.

I've heard similar things, although I think this can of course depend on a variety of factors. I've been told about a small number of neuropsych-trained applicants who didn't match, although they tended to limit themselves to a relatively small number of sites at either the application or ranking phase, or pulled out of the match entirely.

I also get the sense that networking and "who you know/where you come from" plays an even bigger part at the post-doc level than with internship or grad school. I'm fortunate in that many of the TD's I've contacted thus far know my adviser personally, but I'm nonetheless anxious about the whole process; I can definitely see how things would be even more nerve-wracking applying to sites where your program has no relationship (via your adviser, current faculty, and/or past fellows). Then again, part of that might play into the whole strategy of selecting your sites in the first place.

Ahh, the dance never ends...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The numbers do get skewed by the % that really shouldn't apply, but plenty of solid applicants need to scramble because they got squeezed out by slightly better people. Networking is really important. More than half of the places I received an interview knew at least one of my mentors, which I know helped.

At the end of the day, if you have solid experience during your graduate training and you land an APA-acred internship site with at least some neuro work, I think you should be okay. Beware of geographic restriction because even "major" cities have far fewer options/slots than their internship counterparts. I'm happy to be on the other end of all of this.