Neurosurgery

[Umairshariff23]

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Hi all, I have recently finished my final year in India and am doing my internship. I want to get into neurosurgery in USA and am preparing for the USMLE

I want to know, if it is a requirement to have a residency in surgery prior to applying for residency in neurosurgery or can I apply for neurosurgery right off the bat

 

[mvenus929]

Well, you can apply to neurosurgery right off the bat, but your changes of getting a position as an IMG are incredibly small, as neurosurgery is a very competitive field even for US grads.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Hi all, I have recently finished my final year in India and am doing my internship. I want to get into neurosurgery in USA and am preparing for the USMLE

I want to know, if it is a requirement to have a residency in surgery prior to applying for residency in neurosurgery or can I apply for neurosurgery right off the bat

As an IMG, your chances at a neurosurgery residency are slim to none. Your best hope is to get high scores on your Step exams (260+) on the first try and then go into a research lab associated with a neurosurgery program for a few years. Then, if you impress them, you might have a chance at a spot. But you're likely stuck with only that place to get you a spot and the further out from med school graduation, the harder it will be to find another spot in a different field.

So if you want to practice in the US, I would advise looking for another specialty besides neurosurgery.

 

[Umairshariff23]

As an IMG, your chances at a neurosurgery residency are slim to none. Your best hope is to get high scores on your Step exams (260+) on the first try and then go into a research lab associated with a neurosurgery program for a few years. Then, if you impress them, you might have a chance at a spot. But you're likely stuck with only that place to get you a spot and the further out from med school graduation, the harder it will be to find another spot in a different field.

So if you want to practice in the US, I would advise looking for another specialty besides neurosurgery.

Damn, I was so afraid to read that, but I guess thats just the price to get into such an extraordinary field
My second option would be to get into cardiovascular surgery or cardiothoracic surgery. If I am not wrong, I believe I have to do a residency in surgery for what 4-5 years and then go for advance training.

Although I would appreciate it if you could tell me what is the competition to get into a residency once I am done with my USMLE 1 and 2. I believe ERAS Released stats mentioning that 50% of applicants get placements every year

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Damn, I was so afraid to read that, but I guess thats just the price to get into such an extraordinary field
My second option would be to get into cardiovascular surgery or cardiothoracic surgery. If I am not wrong, I believe I have to do a residency in surgery for what 4-5 years and then go for advance training.

Although I would appreciate it if you could tell me what is the competition to get into a residency once I am done with my USMLE 1 and 2. I believe ERAS Released stats mentioning that 50% of applicants get placements every year

For CT surgery, there are still some traditional pathways into the field. As a FMG, you would be unlikely to get an integrated CT or Vascular spot.

Your goals would be to get above average Step scores on USMLE and apply to general surgery programs that have a history of taking IMG/FMG residents. From there, do well and apply for CT or Vascular programs when you are in your 4th year.

 

[Umairshariff23]

For CT surgery, there are still some traditional pathways into the field. As a FMG, you would be unlikely to get an integrated CT or Vascular spot.

Your goals would be to get above average Step scores on USMLE and apply to general surgery programs that have a history of taking IMG/FMG residents. From there, do well and apply for CT or Vascular programs when you are in your 4th year.

My target scores for MLE are 250, is that good enough or do I need to push further??
Ofcourse I understand that the hgher the score is the more appealing I will be to them, but a minimum of 250 will do??

EDIT: Another thing that I've wanted to ask, I am currently doing my internship in my native university and will be busy with that till March 2017, during which I intend to study for and attempt USMLE Step 2 CS and CK and after I graduate attempt Step 1 and apply at ERAS or whatever the procedure is for residency

A friend told me, that it would be wiser if I extend my internship another year and during the second year of internship I do elective internships in Surgery in USA, the reason he mentioned for this is the year of experience working in USA and the year of graduation matching up with the year of application, which according to him combined (both reasons above) have a much much higher chance of me landing up in a residency than my original plan.

I would like some opinions on this and would really appreciate some criticism

 

[rokshana]

My target scores for MLE are 250, is that good enough or do I need to push further??
Ofcourse I understand that the hgher the score is the more appealing I will be to them, but a minimum of 250 will do??

EDIT: Another thing that I've wanted to ask, I am currently doing my internship in my native university and will be busy with that till March 2017, during which I intend to study for and attempt USMLE Step 2 CS and CK and after I graduate attempt Step 1 and apply at ERAS or whatever the procedure is for residency

A friend told me, that it would be wiser if I extend my internship another year and during the second year of internship I do elective internships in Surgery in USA, the reason he mentioned for this is the year of experience working in USA and the year of graduation matching up with the year of application, which according to him combined (both reasons above) have a much much higher chance of me landing up in a residency than my original plan.

I would like some opinions on this and would really appreciate some criticism

go look at the nrmp stats...for a visa needing FMG, they are dismal....sure try, but don't expect to match NS...maybe you can match cat GS (which is still hard for an FMG) and then maybe get into NS after that, but you are talking a 10+ training situation...IF you really want NS, maybe you should think about doing that in India.

 

[drk]

Your friend is right. You should do some rotations in the US while you are still considered a student, also it pushes back your graduation year. Once you graduate it is impossible to get meaningful clinical experience in the USA. If you want to do NS you should get some rotations in that if possible, definitely some gen surg, then apply for NS(like others said next to impossible) and GS which with good scores and LoRs you could probably get into.

 

[Umairshariff23]

go look at the nrmp stats...for a visa needing FMG, they are dismal....sure try, but don't expect to match NS...maybe you can match cat GS (which is still hard for an FMG) and then maybe get into NS after that, but you are talking a 10+ training situation...IF you really want NS, maybe you should think about doing that in India.

I have considered doing NS in India, but the problem here is that hospitals are corrupted holes that suck in your hopes and aspirations. If I am to pursue surgery in India, I have to be ready to shell out over 200k USD under the table just to be able to get into a residency and that amount is low balling it. I dont have that sort of cash and I honestly this it is a waste, that has been one of the primary reasons why I want to go to US or anywhere else for that matter, and start my life

Your friend is right. You should do some rotations in the US while you are still considered a student, also it pushes back your graduation year. Once you graduate it is impossible to get meaningful clinical experience in the USA. If you want to do NS you should get some rotations in that if possible, definitely some gen surg, then apply for NS(like others said next to impossible) and GS which with good scores and LoRs you could probably get into.

Thank you for corroborating my statement, I'd appreciate if you could suggest a hospital or a forum where I can apply for and do an elective for extended periods (4 months atleast) or would it be better for me to do 4 week long internship at several hospitals even though I will spend a little time in between internships waiting for my applications for go through

I intend to pass USMLE Step 2 CK and CS during this year and the next year the USMLE Step 1, would it be wise to study while being involved in an internship??

As far as LoR's go, how readily do the department heads hand them out?? Like do I need to show that I am exceptionally good at what I do and what I know and be on top of my game throughout the time I am posted??


Thank you guys so much for all your effort going into this post, I really appreciate all the help

 

[Umairshariff23]

go look at the nrmp stats...for a visa needing FMG, they are dismal....sure try, but don't expect to match NS...maybe you can match cat GS (which is still hard for an FMG) and then maybe get into NS after that, but you are talking a 10+ training situation...IF you really want NS, maybe you should think about doing that in India.

One thing that I realized is that you said visa needing FMG. If I could, by some chance of sheer luck, get a Green card (which I assume is the residency permit and after staying in USA for 4-5 years you get the citizenship) do my chances of acceptance jump significantly higher??

 

[AMEHigh]

One thing that I realized is that you said visa needing FMG. If I could, by some chance of sheer luck, get a Green card (which I assume is the residency permit and after staying in USA for 4-5 years you get the citizenship) do my chances of acceptance jump significantly higher??

Unfortunately, the further away you get from med school, that lessens your chance of getting a residency spot. Even 1 year after graduating, even for American graduates, it lessens your chance of getting a residency spot. The road from green card to citizen is a process itself that typically takes several years.

 

[Umairshariff23]

Unfortunately, the further away you get from med school, that lessens your chance of getting a residency spot. Even 1 year after graduating, even for American graduates, it lessens your chance of getting a residency spot. The road from green card to citizen is a process itself that typically takes several years.

But, if I get a green card, before I apply for residency, does that raise my chances of being accepted??

 

[rokshana]

But, if I get a green card, before I apply for residency, does that raise my chances of being accepted??

not significantly...for IM, FM, peds it would help, but NS is competitive for USMDs...its still relatively impossible for foreign grads...and as your YOG goes past 3-5 years, you become less competitive for everything.

 

[Umairshariff23]

OK, thanks a lot for clearing the cloud of misinformation

So far, it is wiser to extend my internship for one more year and do internship in my field of choice, neurosurgery is difficult and I should aim a little lower, so survey it is, for now and later I can specialize into something and I should not wait to get a green card or residency to apply for a programme

Do let me know if I have missed out on anything essential, and thanks again everyone for all the help

 

[DrNero]

I have considered doing NS in India, but the problem here is that hospitals are corrupted holes that suck in your hopes and aspirations. If I am to pursue surgery in India, I have to be ready to shell out over 200k USD under the table just to be able to get into a residency and that amount is low balling it. I dont have that sort of cash and I honestly this it is a waste, that has been one of the primary reasons why I want to go to US or anywhere else for that matter, and start my life



Thank you for corroborating my statement, I'd appreciate if you could suggest a hospital or a forum where I can apply for and do an elective for extended periods (4 months atleast) or would it be better for me to do 4 week long internship at several hospitals even though I will spend a little time in between internships waiting for my applications for go through

I intend to pass USMLE Step 2 CK and CS during this year and the next year the USMLE Step 1, would it be wise to study while being involved in an internship??

As far as LoR's go, how readily do the department heads hand them out?? Like do I need to show that I am exceptionally good at what I do and what I know and be on top of my game throughout the time I am posted??


Thank you guys so much for all your effort going into this post, I really appreciate all the help

Dear Aspirant,
I`m a proud neurosurgeon from India & have had a successful 8yr+ practice! I have been performing procedures all across the globe. There is no such thing as "under the table payments" when it comes to Neuro! If you have the caliber to excel then you need not worry but stop giving your own motherland a bad name!!
Best Regards,
Indian Taught Global Neurosurgeon

 

[bannie22]

You will improve your chances with a green card.
However, it will be much easier to go general surgery -> cardiothoracic surgery fellowship.

 

[axiomofchoice]

Actually, several FMGs match neurosurgery every year - this year about 15. However, they are typically exceptional individuals who have demonstrated commitment to neurosurgery through exceptional school performance, involvement in the field, and prolific research accomplishments.

USMLE results are pretty meaningless nowadays since everyone scores high. 250 meant something 5 years ago - now its probably average.