New executive order

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Sounds like we're being screwed with both Democrats and Republicans 😛
 
Seems like an attempt to reduce physician compensation down to mid level rates.

Read this, not good. Same pay for the same job is dumb but it’s simple and could drastically lower reimbursement
 
Read this, not good. Same pay for the same job is dumb but it’s simple and could drastically lower reimbursement

See, I take this as a legit reason for us to keep MLPs doing MLP things, and not just pick up the level-2 chest pain/SOB patient whenever they feel like 'learning'.

The time for 'learning' is called R.E.S.I.D.E.N.C.Y.
Didn't do that RESIDENCY thing? Welp, we hired you to see low-acuity things quickly. So... go see low-acuity things quickly.

Before anyone says it; yes, I'm aware that the CMGs see us as almost interchangeable and that since we have little power over our work environment, that they will ratchet us down to their level, and that the upward pressure from the MLP lobbies will make this even harder.

This is presently happening at my main gig.
It can happen for you, too.
The CMG lost the contract, and the new quasi-SDG is in.
Before anyone squeaks; no, its not USASSKISS or Vituity or any of those shell-games.

One BIG aspect of the remodel is the role that MLPs are playing.
The message was sent about a half year ago that we want the MLPs to see fast-track things quickly.
The MLPs didn't like this, and would often pick up level 2 or 3 patients in the main ED out of petulance.
Then, they made a big mistake; and they let patients stack up 2 and 3 at a time in their fast track area.
So, one of us physicians would go and "clean their house" in 20 minutes or less. Send 'em all home.
This happened a few times, and it came to light that ... "Hey; you guys are sitting there wondering what to do with this flank pain patient, while we're doing your job in half the time that you could ever do it in. Stay in your lane."

They didn't listen.

With the new group.... we hired two brand-spanking new MLPs. Didn't need 'em. But we hired them. I was involved heavily with the process.
They will start soon.
The message was sent during the hiring process: "You're going to see low-acuity stuff quickly, and take direction. If that's a problem for you; say so now."

The message was thus tacitly sent to the current MLP crowd that "they were on notice".
They know that some or all of them are going to run out of shifts. *
Some of them will be "absorbed" by the other hospitals in our system.
Some of them quit and found new workplaces.
Some of them are sticking around and seeing where the axe falls.

We will see what happens.


* We used to have 2 MLP shifts a day at 12 hours each. We changed the shift map to have double physician coverage during the hours of 2-10pm, and 1 MLP shift between 12p-12a. The only reason we could do this is because decisions are now made LOCALLY, and not by old, buttery vasculopaths somewhere five states away between their shrimp cocktail/martini lunch and their afternoon A1 steak sauce message session. Yes; you can see that man-boobed and balding administrator pouring A1 sauce straight out of the bottle onto his tiddies and paunchy abdomen and rubbing it around. His tongue is hanging halfway out of his mouth, and he is droning on with sounds generally made during intimate moments.


A few folks on here know me in real life. For those that do.... if we catch up at some conference from here until doomsday, and I am a paunchy and man-tiddied guy (and I don't have a terrible autoimmune endocrine disease), then kick my ass, please.
 
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This happened a few times, and it came to light that ... "Hey; you guys are sitting there wondering what to do with this flank pain patient, while we're doing your job in half the time that you could ever do it in. Stay in your lane."

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"Hey; you guys are sitting there wondering what to do with this flank pain patient..."

Wait, what's so hard about flank pain?

<HCA $=$$>
1-HOUR SEPSIS
MORPHINE
UA CBC CMP LIPASE BBQ
CT A/P NONCON
ADMIT
</HCA>

Even a monkey could do it!

Seriously, I give myself about a year in this HCA job. 1-hour sepsis protocol totally bites.
 
Wait, what's so hard about flank pain?

<HCA $=$$>
1-HOUR SEPSIS
MORPHINE
UA CBC CMP LIPASE BBQ
CT
ADMIT
</HCA>

Even a monkey could do it!

Seriously, I give myself about a year in this HCA job. 1-hour sepsis protocol totally bites.


Lol @ BBQ joke. Good one!

We recently had a conference call at my HCA job site about noncompliance with the 1-hour sepsis protocol.
Its not my primary job site. I got a little mouthy about how much this is the 'wrong thing to do'.
My site director interrupted me during the call with: "There's no cheese down this mousehole, Fox."

...

I seriously got "shush'ed" by my director for speaking out against HCA and telling the truth.

I hope they get whistleblown so hard that they go bankrupt.
 
Wait, what's so hard about flank pain?

<HCA $=$$>
1-HOUR SEPSIS
MORPHINE
UA CBC CMP LIPASE BBQ
CT A/P NONCON
ADMIT
</HCA>

Even a monkey could do it!

Seriously, I give myself about a year in this HCA job. 1-hour sepsis protocol totally bites.

LMAO

giphy.gif
 
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Lol @ BBQ joke. Good one!

We recently had a conference call at my HCA job site about noncompliance with the 1-hour sepsis protocol.
Its not my primary job site. I got a little mouthy about how much this is the 'wrong thing to do'.
My site director interrupted me during the call with: "There's no cheese down this mousehole, Fox."

...

I seriously got "shush'ed" by my director for speaking out against HCA and telling the truth.

I hope they get whistleblown so hard that they go bankrupt.

Why stop at 1 hour?
Why not make it the 5 min sepsis protocol. Much like you can make 5 min oatmeal.
As long as the protocol includes admitting to the hospital, I'll do a sepsis protocol if at the end it says "admit"

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I agree with the admit part. I never call a "code sepsis" or use the "sepsis bundle" on any patient I'm contemplating sending home. I don't want that liability of having the word sepsis on the chart for a discharged patient. During flu season 90% of our young, tachycardic females are going to meet SIRS critiera. I sure as hell am not calling a code sepsis on all of them.

Usually I can get a CBC or lactic back fast enough to initiate the sepsis protocol if I am going to admit them.
 
I bet 90% of all the “CODE SEPSIS” called in my ER is done by nursing.

It’s a can’t win scenario.

I’m willing to bet there are more adverse outcomes from RNs calling “CODE SEPSIS” than if they just waited 5-10 mins to wait for a doc to actually examine the patient.
 
I bet 90% of all the “CODE SEPSIS” called in my ER is done by nursing.

It’s a can’t win scenario.

I’m willing to bet there are more adverse outcomes from RNs calling “CODE SEPSIS” than if they just waited 5-10 mins to wait for a doc to actually examine the patient.

It's like the "code white" on the 34 yo with Bell's Palsy, or the EKG done on everyone with cough or a twinge of upper body pain. It's gotten out of control.
 
It's like the "code white" on the 34 yo with Bell's Palsy, or the EKG done on everyone with cough or a twinge of upper body pain. It's gotten out of control.

At least the Bells Palsy has a neuro deficit. What about the 34 yo who is dizzy and walking around just fine?!?! CODE STROKE!!!!!

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about...but what a crappy time when you stick the huge icicle and fall
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I agree with the admit part. I never call a "code sepsis" or use the "sepsis bundle" on any patient I'm contemplating sending home.

You're right, but the problem is I can never predict 100% who's gonna end up with appy, chole, not tolerate po, threaten to complain about me to my unsympathetic admin critters, etc, and thus end up getting admitted. And if they get admitted, they're fair game for a retroactive sepsis fallout if I didn't activate sepsis within 1 hour of arrival. The fallouts are determined by admins who sometimes make some rather... shallow... decisions based on inpatient vital signs and specific words found in the patients' charts, whether written by me or someone else.

I think 1-hour sepsis was devised by someone smarter than us. The beautiful evil of 1-hour sepsis is that it forces my hand in any ambiguous case, which at 5 minutes after arrival is a lot of them if I'm being honest with myself. By 3 hours, usually it's no longer ambiguous and I've already discharged the pt if they're dischargeable.

"Well then grow a pair and do the right thing and stop calling sepsis on these people and feeding the machine", you might say. Eh, I just don't care that much. The machine will persist with or without me. Better to keep quiet and make hay while the sun shines.

Fox, yes, I think HCA will eventually see whistleblower action over any one of multiple evil policies. What they're doing is too obvious and they have too many witnesses. But I'm not seeing it for 1-hour sepsis when (at least on paper) the Surviving Sepsis Committee came up with it so it has at least a patina of academic credibility.

I have often wondered what SSC was thinking when they created the protocol, and whether there were external influence$, as it is so obviously the wrong thing to do for so many patients and SCCM itself has announced that hospitals should not implement it.
 
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I have often wondered what SSC was thinking when they created the protocol, and whether there were external influence$, as it is so obviously the wrong thing to do for so many patients and SCCM itself has announced that hospitals should not implement it.

Link, pleeeeaze.
EDIT: Nevermind, got it.
 
You're right, but the problem is I can never predict 100% who's gonna end up with appy, chole, not tolerate po, threaten to complain about me to my unsympathetic admin critters, etc, and thus end up getting admitted. And if they get admitted, they're fair game for a retroactive sepsis fallout if I didn't activate sepsis within 1 hour of arrival. The fallouts are determined by admins who sometimes make some rather... shallow... decisions based on inpatient vital signs and specific words found in the patients' charts, whether written by me or someone else.

I think 1-hour sepsis was devised by someone smarter than us. The beautiful evil of 1-hour sepsis is that it forces my hand in any ambiguous case, which at 5 minutes after arrival is a lot of them if I'm being honest with myself. By 3 hours, usually it's no longer ambiguous and I've already discharged the pt if they're dischargeable.

"Well then grow a pair and do the right thing and stop calling sepsis on these people and feeding the machine", you might say. Eh, I just don't care that much. The machine will persist with or without me. Better to keep quiet and make hay while the sun shines.

Fox, yes, I think HCA will eventually see whistleblower action over any one of multiple evil policies. What they're doing is too obvious and they have too many witnesses. But I'm not seeing it for 1-hour sepsis when (at least on paper) the Surviving Sepsis Committee came up with it so it has at least a patina of academic credibility.

I have often wondered what SSC was thinking when they created the protocol, and whether there were external influence$, as it is so obviously the wrong thing to do for so many patients and SCCM itself has announced that hospitals should not implement it.
No judgement, but why did you take a HCA job?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile
 
So glad we don’t have this level of bs at my job. The job market is so crappy that people take these crap jobs at crap pay. Sigh. I could deal with this bs for real pay but not this standard trashy pay envision is doling out.
 
Interesting, because some are envisioning a rosy picture. I can't tell if they are purposely denying reality.
So glad we don’t have this level of bs at my job. The job market is so crappy that people take these crap jobs at crap pay. Sigh. I could deal with this bs for real pay but not this standard trashy pay envision is doling out.
 
Fox, yes, I think HCA will eventually see whistleblower action over any one of multiple evil policies. What they're doing is too obvious and they have too many witnesses. But I'm not seeing it for 1-hour sepsis when (at least on paper) the Surviving Sepsis Committee came up with it so it has at least a patina of academic credibility.

I had already posted an article about this in another thread where some pit doc working at a HCA site somewhere in missouri or kansas successfully sued HCA for wrongful termination, and the jury awarded him $30 million. In that case, the c suite were being incredibly brazen and simply told the doc to resign or be fired when he brought up concerns about patient safety and ED understaffing, making for an arguable case in the courts.

As for sepsis protocols, I got more or less the same response as fox when I brought up my objections. "Sepsis protocols have been in place for over a decade, manny rivers et al. blah blah". I wanted to counter with HELLO AAEM BOARD OF DIRECTOR STATEMENT, ARISE TRIAL, PROMISE TRIAL, PROCESS TRIAL? EVER HEARD OF ANY OF THEM? NO? WHY NOT?, but felt like this fight wasn't worth having....
 
Arguing for policy to reflect good medicine doesn't work. Best is to just go along and quietly keep doing what you're doing withoutv trying to change institutional culture.
I had already posted an article about this in another thread where some pit doc working at a HCA site somewhere in missouri or kansas successfully sued HCA for wrongful termination, and the jury awarded him $30 million. In that case, the c suite were being incredibly brazen and simply told the doc to resign or be fired when he brought up concerns about patient safety and ED understaffing, making for an arguable case in the courts.

As for sepsis protocols, I got more or less the same response as fox when I brought up my objections. "Sepsis protocols have been in place for over a decade, manny rivers et al. blah blah". I wanted to counter with HELLO AAEM BOARD OF DIRECTOR STATEMENT, ARISE TRIAL, PROMISE TRIAL, PROCESS TRIAL? EVER HEARD OF ANY OF THEM? NO? WHY NOT?, but felt like this fight wasn't worth having....

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile
 
As someone who's never worked for or interviewed with an HCA position- what is it they do that is so egregious that other CMGs aren't also doing?
 
Arguing for policy to reflect good medicine doesn't work. Best is to just go along and quietly keep doing what you're doing withoutv trying to change institutional culture.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile

I have a fantasy that plays in my head all the time. I sock away enough $$$ in my 401k to be financially independent. Then, one day while on shift, I just barge in to a c suite meeting, with the app to my retirement fund open, and showing my balance. I just start walking around the table and keep showing it to every on while saying 'SEE THAT MOFOS? THAT'S CALLED EFF YOU MONEY, SO YOU CAN ALL TAKE YOUR METRICS AND SUCK IT! HOW'S THAT FOR I CARE VALUES? I'M OUT, SUCKAS!'

Till then, your suggestion is a good one to follow.
 
As someone who's never worked for or interviewed with an HCA position- what is it they do that is so egregious that other CMGs aren't also doing?

Can you show me another hospital system where they have a nurse standing right behind the pit doc with a clipboard saying 'doctor, why haven't you picked up this patient yet who has been waiting for 5 minutes?'
 
Sounds like we're being screwed with both Democrats and Republicans 😛

Somebody gets it!

Repubs: “healthcare expensive? See an NP and shop around”

Democrats: “Healthcare expensive? Force a doctor to see you then stiff them on the bill later”
 
As someone who's never worked for or interviewed with an HCA position- what is it they do that is so egregious that other CMGs aren't also doing?

You will be enlightened when you work for HCA they are staffed mostly by Envision because of the high turnover at HCA sights so they must have a robust group of travelers.

Here are some things you will be subjected to:

HCA Charge nurse

"Hey the NP put in a bunch of orders on this old person. Go see them to discharge."

"You need to use the computer and log into the waiting room during this code. Our door-to-doc times are going over 15 minutes!"

HCA CEO

" I want the ER docs to take responsibility and sign up for all the patients that still have an EDOC on the waiting room." even though times have been stopped.

"This patient has been here for over 30 minutes in the waiting room sign up for him!"

HCA Medical Director

"This was triaged as a level 4 you have to get them out in 45 minutes or change the acuity."

"Dude! You have a patient that has been here for 6 hours!! You have to admit them or your discharge times will be screwed!"

"HCA wants us to be more aggressive with sepsis you must only use the orderset on all patients which will always get blood cultures and an IV antibiotics so we can get the 1 hour metric. Also the chest pain, sob, abd pain, ams, psych ordersets will all contain sepsis stuff."

After six months: "Wow as a PRN guy you have been here pretty long."
 
Can you show me another hospital system where they have a nurse standing right behind the pit doc with a clipboard saying 'doctor, why haven't you picked up this patient yet who has been waiting for 5 minutes?'

In fairness, my HCA shop does not do this exact thing. My medical director (as a proxy for HCA C-suite) is the one who cares very much about this garbage, but he only emails us about it when his boss gets on his butt about it. Usually that requires a pt to be waiting for 30--45 minutes w/o a provider signed up, which never happens unless I'm in a code, and even then usually I find a way to sign up. We also don't have a pit doc, although apparently HCA has threatened us with this if our PG scores don't pick up.

Damning with faint praise, I know.

My HCA nurses are all delightful people and probably the most skilled I've seen at access at any of the 4 systems where I've worked. Like me, they think these HCA protocols are capitalist garbage and ignore them whenever possible. As I wrote in another thread, I have no idea why they stay at my shop when HCA only pays them like $30/h and is probably intentionally soft-harassing them in various ways to encourage them to quit and replace them with new RNs that they can then pay even less.
 
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As someone who's never worked for or interviewed with an HCA position- what is it they do that is so egregious that other CMGs aren't also doing?

Other people have answered your question in truthy ways. I will get a bit more abstract here. First thing: HCA is not a CMG, but a company that owns hospitals. Thus, they play the tune and the CMGs dance to it. If the CMGs refuse to dance, HCA cancels their ER contracts. I do not actually work for HCA, but rather a big CMG who is contracted by HCA.

HCA's job is to make money, on paper for its shareholders but possibly in actuality for mainly its C-suite. They make money by renting out hospital beds as well as selling various healthcare-related products, such as antibiotics and bags of salt water, to a mostly-captive audience (including people who believe they are captive). I am the link between HCA and its audience.

At the other shops I've worked, the hospitals are locally-owned and managed. Truth be told, they are probably nowhere near as good at making money as HCA. HCA has probably researched this to death and figured out how best to "coordinate" its docs, RNs, and other staff so as to best funnel money from its patients (or their insurers or CMS or whoever) into HCA's own pockets by selling salt water, antibiotics, etc. My guess is the admin at my other shops either have not thought of all this stuff or are too ethical or otherwise hamstrung by various regulations to pursue it. Don't get me wrong, the other shops still do a bunch of things to make money that are not necessarily in the best interests of their patients, but that's another long post.

HCA is the only hospital system I've encountered that uses the 1-hour sepsis protocol. Faster required time to salt water and antibiotics = you sell more salt water and antibiotics, and probably also rent more hospital beds per Veers' logic above. Whatever the original intentions of HCA or SSC or anyone else were, that is the functional consequence. It is exactly what I would do if I were a saltwater salesman and bed rentier and I wanted to make more money and thought I could get away with it.

Per another thread, I still can't figure out how all the emphasis on Press-Ganey, door to doc, and other metrics ultimately make money for HCA. One theory is that they don't directly make HCA money, but rather save them money over a longer timeframe by causing providers to get frustrated and quit and thus allow HCA to hire new providers for less money. Another theory is that it's kind of a MacGuffin for the C-suite to show to its major shareholders so that the shareholders ultimately pay the C-suite more somehow. These are not great theories but they're the best I have.
 
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No judgement, but why did you take a HCA job?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile

Two reasons:

1. $300/h to see 1-3pph (usually ~1.7pph) at the main
2. $250/h to sleep 4--6h per shift at the FSEDs

HCA did not implement 1-hour sepsis until a few years after I signed my contract, but even if they had it probably wouldn't have affected my decision.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a victim and I don't mind being judged by more idealistic docs. I had read SDN for a few years before I even signed up for EM and knew what I was getting into. I'm trying to cash out within a few years, or at least have that option. I have no debt and next year, when I'll have enough money saved to avoid a mortgage, I'll probably move to a locally-owned shop on the coast for a 33% paycut but nicer weather and more autonomy.

And, in general, I don't mind my HCA shop. We have lots of nice perks like a 24-hour ortho tech and a doctors' lounge with free hot breakfast. And the patients tend to be grateful as hell in my region of the country, even if I can't give them what they actually need. 1-hour sepsis just grates on me because it's so damn blatant.
 
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