New SBRT Process

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scarbrtj

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Here's my summary, per ASTRO:
1) "Frame grabber connected from treatment console..."
2) "Review one plane at [a] time..."
3) "Call ended..."
4) "Treatment occurs..."*

For my money if the best rad onc in the U.S. is doing it, it's good enough for me. Rad oncs very important in this process(?).

Xgta7Ig.png



* Magically?! With no further intervention by any humans?! It just "occurs"?! Neat.

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It’s my take on that tweet that his partner is at the Linac for him.
 
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It’s my take on that tweet that his partner is at the Linac for him.
Yeah I took that from the tweet too.
So now either we need two rad oncs for SBRT (one remote, one on site), or just the remote one. Seems like ASTRO is saying just remote. Seems like the on-site one is kind of tittynope here but that's just my opinion.
 
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Yeah I took that from the tweet too.
So now either we need two rad oncs for SBRT (one remote, one on site), or just the remote one. Seems like ASTRO is saying just remote. Seems like the on-site one is kind of tittynope here but that's just my opinion.

What’s the point of tweeting about your partner covering a SBRT for you and If that’s the case, why does he need to micromanage his partner unless it’s a resident, monkey or both!
 
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Is anyone else doing 34 gy in fx (outside covid times)? Wasn’t the 34 gy arm numerically worse for all end points in terms of cancer control and survival . It may have not been significantly different but trial had small n. Also 48 in 4 rx is in the light side of multifraction sbrt.
 
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Is anyone else doing 34 gy in fx (outside covid times)? Wasn’t the 34 gy arm numerically worse for all end points in terms of cancer control and survival . It may have not been significantly different but trial had small n. Also 48 in 4 rx is in the light side of multifraction sbrt.
I never have. And never will. (Isn't it a bit interesting that for a ~1 cm lung cancer in the lung we say 34/1 is "numerically worse for all end points in terms of cancer control and survival" but for a ~1 cm lung cancer in the brain we give 20-24 Gy in 1 fx and don't say that?) But gosh just think 10-15y ago it was 7 weeks of XRT for Stage I NSCLC. Now the treatment is ~97% shorter in duration. We sure haven't shrunk rad onc lung CA workforce by ~97%.
 
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I never have. And never will. (Isn't it a bit interesting that for a ~1 cm lung cancer in the lung we say 34/1 is "numerically worse for all end points in terms of cancer control and survival" but for a ~1 cm lung cancer in the brain we give 20-24 Gy in 1 fx and don't say that?) But gosh just think 10-15y ago it was 7 weeks of XRT for Stage I NSCLC. Now the treatment is ~97% shorter in duration. We sure haven't shrunk rad onc lung CA workforce by ~97%.

There are differences there and they mainly have to do with normal tissue contraints.

We don't push the fractionated dose higher in the brain. We give 3 x 11 Gy (or 3 x 9 Gy @80% isodose à la Minniti) or 6 x 6 Gy (@95% isodose) for brain mets, but won't push much higher than that. These doses are considered suboptimal for the treatment of primary tumors in the lung or metastases in the lung or liver from any tumor. Earlier SBRT series point out at a high risk of local failure (>30%) when giving doses like that, people were careful in the early SBRT days and we have the data.

But would you be comfortable with giving 3 x 25 Gy (or let's say 3 x 15 Gy @ 60% isodose) to a brain metastasis (à la Timmemann for NSCLC-primaries)?
Actually the Japanese have done something similar for GBM.
8 x 8.5 Gy to the GTV. Now that's a dose you would consider "curative" if you would give it to a T1-NSCLC in the lung, right? It's practiced a lot, for example for primaries close/in the "no-fly-zone"
Roughly 50% radionecrosis when the same dose was given to GBMs...

It's the same in spinal metastases. 1 x 20 Gy or 2 x 10 Gy are acceptable SBRT schedules.
We don't push higher than that, because of toxicity constraints regarding spinal cord and nerves (and possibly bone fractures).



I've treated with 1 x 34 Gy only once. Metastatic NSCLC patient sent for palliative RT of painful bone mets. His 2cm primary was not far from where we treated the bone mets and we just gave it 1 x 34 Gy, so that it wouldn't cause any problems in the future. 1 x 34 Gy is only feasible with small tumors which are not adjacent to the chest wall (unless you are comfortable with high single-doses to the ribs, which I am not) or centrally located. All of these lesions can easily be treated with 3 x 25 Gy, which is probably also "more" in terms of BED (using the linear-quadratic-model with these high single doses is not well validated, but my gut feeling is that 3 x 25 Gy > 1 x 34 Gy).
What we are experiencing in NSCLC-SBRT fractionation is the opposite of brain-mets-SRS fractionation.
We used to fractionated more in NSCLC and modern trials have tried to fractionated less for some primaries (mainly peripheral) while optimize fractionation for others, where high toxicity was noted with large fraction doses (mainly the no-fly-zone, after toxicities were seen with 3-fraction-schedules). Brain-SRS was the domain of single-shot (mainly GK) SRS and is now being switched to more fractionated treatments, especially for larger lesions and post-operative cavities.
 
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There are differences there and they mainly have to do with normal tissue contraints.

We don't push the fractionated dose higher in the brain. We give 3 x 11 Gy (or 3 x 9 Gy @80% isodose à la Minniti) or 6 x 6 Gy (@95% isodose) for brain mets, but won't push much higher than that. These doses are considered suboptimal for the treatment of primary tumors in the lung or metastases in the lung or liver from any tumor. Earlier SBRT series point out at a high risk of local failure (>30%) when giving doses like that, people were careful in the early SBRT days and we have the data.

But would you be comfortable with giving 3 x 25 Gy (or let's say 3 x 15 Gy @ 60% isodose) to a brain metastasis (à la Timmemann for NSCLC-primaries)?
Actually the Japanese have done something similar for GBM.
8 x 8.5 Gy to the GTV. Now that's a dose you would consider "curative" if you would give it to a T1-NSCLC in the lung, right? It's practice a lot, for example for primaries close/in the "no-fly-zone"
Roughly 50% radionecrosis when the same dose was given to GBMs...

It's the same with the bone. 1 x 20 Gy or 2 x 10 Gy are acceptable SBRT schedules.
We don't push higher than that, because of toxicity constraints regarding spinal cord and nerves (and possibly bone fractures).



I've treated with 1 x 34 Gy only once. Metastatic NSCLC patient sent for palliative RT of painful bone mets. His 2cm primary was not far from where we treated the bone mets and we just gave it 1 x 34 Gy, so that it wouldn't cause any problems in the future. 1 x 34 Gy is only feasible with small tumors which are not adjacent to the chest wall (unless you are comfortable with high single-doses to the ribs, which I am not) or centrally located. All of these lesions can easily be treated with 3 x 25 Gy, which is probably also "more" in terms of BED (using the linear-quadratic-model with these high single doses is not well validated, but my gut feeling is that 3 x 25 Gy > 1 x 34 Gy).
What we are experiencing in NSCLC-SBRT fractionation is the opposite of brain-mets-SRS fractionation.
We used to fractionated more in NSCLC and modern trials have tried to fractionated less for some primaries (mainly peripheral) while optimize fractionation for others, where high toxicity was noted with large fraction doses (mainly the no-fly-zone, after toxicities were seen with 3-fraction-schedules). Brain-SRS was the domain of single-shot (mainly GK) SRS and is now being switched to more fractionated treatments, especially for larger lesions and post-operative cavities.

is there ongoing studies looking at that Japanese GBM regimen vs Stupp standard regimen? Very interesting, thanks for linking
 



 
is there ongoing studies looking at that Japanese GBM regimen vs Stupp standard regimen? Very interesting, thanks for linking
I doubt it. Too toxic.

Something similar was attempted in the US as well, dose was a bit lower (10 x 6 Gy).

 
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I doubt it. Too toxic.

Something similar was attempted in the US as well, dose was a bit lower (10 x 6 Gy).


small N. This one seems promising? I think in such a horrible disease even in good KPS pts it makes sense to consider the shortest course possible to achieve similar outcomes to allow them to live their life. Surprised a bit it did not lead to a bigger study
 
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small N. This one seems promising? I think in such a horrible disease even in good KPS pts it makes sense to consider the shortest course possible to achieve similar outcomes to allow them to live their life. Surprised a bit it did not lead to a bigger study
Whatever happened to virus-based therapy for GBM. Thought that might've been going somewhere way back when.
This just popped up in my email box recently...

Olathe startup's brain cancer treatment moves closer to market
 
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I don't get why CR had to be monitoring another attending, Matt Spraker, in covering his CBCT. Maybe Spraker (who I only know as a Sarcoma guy) was uncomfortable monitoring a CBCT in a 34x1 scenario?

I don't plan to do 34x1.... like ever. 3-8 Fx is fast enough for me based on situation/tumor location.
 
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I don't get why CR had to be monitoring another attending, Matt Spraker, in covering his CBCT. Maybe Spraker (who I only know as a Sarcoma guy) was uncomfortable monitoring a CBCT in a 34x1 scenario?

I don't plan to do 34x1.... like ever. 3-8 Fx is fast enough for me based on situation/tumor location.
Agree, not sure of the point? A few years ago, Videtic at CC said 50/5 was his favorite go-to dose. I personally like 50/4 if I can get away with it, or 11x5....

1588529854423.png
 
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Agree, not sure of the point? A few years ago, Videtic at CC said 50/5 was his favorite go-to dose. I personally like 50/4 if I can get away with it, or 11x5....

View attachment 305017
Man. Uematsu and chest RT goes way back like Cadillac seats. I think he was hanging around Masaoka when they came up with thymic staging last century.
 
have they published a long term update on 34x1?

Not sure I'd put a lot of faith in a phase 2 RCT with less than 100 pts...
 
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Agree, not sure of the point? A few years ago, Videtic at CC said 50/5 was his favorite go-to dose. I personally like 50/4 if I can get away with it, or 11x5....

View attachment 305017
Agree. In the most contemporary times, pushing the dose higher than a BED 100 is best, especially given the very good toxicity profiles these days.
 
The main problem with many of the so far performed (meta)analyses on SBRT doses was WHERE (at what isodose), WHICH (CTV- or PTV-related) dose was prescribed and delivered. The whole process of trying to understand that shortcoming is even more complicated due to the contouring (sometimes ITV, sometimes not, variable PTV-margins) and the methods of delivery and verification.
Many of the data pointing out to a dose >100 Gy BED as favorable come from the pre-CBCT era.

Personally, I remain confused on dose ranges. Many people seem to prescribe the dose to the PTV-encompassing 60% to 95% isodose line. But with this 35% range, noone really knows, what dose was delivered where...

Recently a new analysis pointed out that perhaps "average" BED is the way to go...
 
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The main problem with many of the so far performed (meta)analyses on SBRT doses was WHERE (at what isodose), WHICH (CTV- or PTV-related) dose was prescribed and delivered. The whole process of trying to understand that shortcoming is even more complicated due to the contouring (sometimes ITV, sometimes not, variable PTV-margins) and the methods of delivery and verification.
Many of the data pointing out to a dose >100 Gy BED as favorable come from the pre-CBCT era.

Personally, I remain confused on dose ranges. Many people seem to prescribe the dose to the PTV-encompassing 60% to 95% isodose line. But with this 35% range, noone really knows, what dose was delivered where...

Recently a new analysis pointed out that perhaps "average" BED is the way to go...

This point can't be reiterated enough. All the SBRT trials that we hang our collective hats on, used "simple" 3D dose delivery. Most without 4DCT and most (all?) without arcs.

Now a days everyone gets a 4DCT, everyone gets a 3D conformal arc or VMAT... with VMAT some (most?) algorithms tend to restrict hot spots. So after speaking to other people who do lung, I've started dose escalating the center by telling the planners that I want the ITV to receive >115% of the rx.
 
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This point can't be reiterated enough. All the SBRT trials that we hang our collective hats on, used "simple" 3D dose delivery. Most without 4DCT and most (all?) without arcs.

Now a days everyone gets a 4DCT, everyone gets a 3D conformal arc or VMAT... with VMAT some (most?) algorithms tend to restrict hot spots. So after speaking to other people who do lung, I've started dose escalating the center by telling the planners that I want the ITV to receive >115% of the rx.
when there is one constraint and one constraint only... a minimum dose to a target (ie 100% of target to receive a dose or more)... the IMRT (and VMAT is a form of IMRT) algorithm should not be expressly seeking homogeneity. Perhaps the “algorithm” is the planner or dosimetrist :)
 
agree. it's the planner. if they don't make it hot, I fire them on the spot.
 
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