New Schools

[keolu hills]

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With all these new schools and class sizes expanding, will there be enough residency spots for everyone. There will probably be a lot more coming up too.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

There's still more Residency spots than US Grads for now (and probably up until at least 2028), but the numbers are closing quick, and soon there will be a bottleneck.

Our only hope would probably be something like this to happen:

S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019

Summary of S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019

www.congress.gov

But we've had similar proposed bills every couple years in congress that were swept under the rug, so I won't hold my breath on this one.

 

[Dr. Death]

Wow! Novel idea for a new thread!

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

Yes, there are still enough residency spots. If they want to do FM or IM, then they will have no problem. If any of these ignorant students wants anything other than FM or IM, then they’re in for a tough time. Including ROADS, fields such as Psyc and PM&R are now completely full every year.

 

[NurWollen]

Meanwhile, when you get on my side of the journey, having almost finished residency and getting ready for a fellowship, you start to look at real world jobs and realize residency expansion is the last thing we want.

Just hop over to the EM forums and see how residency expansion is affecting them.

There's still more Residency spots than US Grads for now (and probably up until at least 2028), but the numbers are closing quick, and soon there will be a bottleneck.

Our only hope will probably something like this to happen:

S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019

Summary of S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019

www.congress.gov

But we've had similar proposed bills every couple years in congress that were swept under the rug, so I won't hold my breath on this one.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[deleted898021]

Yes, there are still enough residency spots. If they want to do FM or IM, then they will have no problem. If any of these ignorant students wants anything other than FM or IM, then they’re in for a tough time. Including ROADS, fields such as Psyc and PM&R are now completely full every year.

LOL okay . Psych and pmr are pretty easy to get into. You need a 220 on usmle and honestly some programs even consider comlex. Most of the DO psych programs made it to acgme...

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

LOL okay . Psych and pmr are pretty easy to get into. You need a 220 on usmle and honestly some programs even consider comlex. Most of the DO psych programs made it to acgme...

And do you think the students that will go to these new schools can get a 220 when they’re accepted with a <445 MCAT?

 

[sharpstickie]

And do you think the students that will go to these new schools can get a 220 when they’re accepted with a <445 MCAT?

Does the mcat even go that low?

 

[deleted898021]

People acting like psych is the new Derm or something lmaoo. Know people who matched some good programs with less then 220 on USMLE from a DO school lol

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Meanwhile, when you get on my side of the journey, having almost finished residency and getting ready for a fellowship, you start to look at real world jobs and realize residency expansion is the last thing we want.

Just hop over to the EM forums and see how residency expansion is affecting them.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

I know, and that's exactly why I scratched EM off my list (that and other personal reasons). I don't think it will be long till their salary start dropping as well if it hasn't started already.

I jumped on the primary care train for a while especially IM because of the variety of sub-specialty I could do, but I'm slowly scratching that off my list too lol. With all these DO schools opening with goal to fix primary care, if they're going to have any GME development at all, it's most likely gonna be IM and FM which will eventually probably blow the market as well.

Instead, I'm now considering a specialty with very little expansion (if any), early specialization, decent income potential, and few people go for it which still make it not very competitive and in high demand everywhere. Also, it's probably one the hardest specialty for residency, but I've been learning more about it lately, and I think I will like it. Hopefully I don't change my mind again.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

And do you think the students that will go to these new schools can get a 220 when they’re accepted with a <445 MCAT?

First of all, MCAT goes from 472-528. Second, I go to a new school, and the inaugural class which had the lowest entrance stats (3.5 GPA and 499 MCAT) just took their first USMLE/COMLEX, and yes, many people scored over 220 with a few people (~7) got over 250 (2 of them I know got over 260). These people didn't have great MCAT either.

 

[deleted898021]

First of all, MCAT goes from 472-528. Second, I go to a new school, and the inaugural class which had the lowest entrance stats (3.5 GPA and 499 MCAT) just took their first USMLE/COMLEX, and yes, many people scored over 220 with a few people (~7) got over 250 (2 of them I know got over 260). These people didn't have great MCAT either.

Exactly ditto for my school I know we had several people in the high 250’s for the last years class and they didn’t have a crazy high Mcat score either. Many people made in the 210-220+ range. Our average gpa and mcat is 3.5 and 502-503 for the latest class. The correlating for mcat to usmle is weak after an mcat score of 500-501, after that there is no relation to mcat score and usmle/comlex score and passing rate.

 

[Whysoez]

Reading all of these new threads makes me depressed 🙁

 

[Butters Stotch]

Reading all of these new threads makes me depressed 🙁

Isn’t that the point of social media? At the end we will be fine. I can’t imagine having a conversation with some of these Debby Downers in real life. In fact I hope they don’t carry this into the real world when they are caring for actual humans. Let’s take for example WCUCOM for example (sdn punching bag. Last time I saw their match list they had a derm and NS match. Am I saying WCUCOM is a good school and shouldn’t be punished? No. I am saying by taking individual responsibility you can do well at any school. In fact when you become a doctor you will have to take individual responsibility. Your patients look up to you. Your family will look up to you. Your community will look up to you. Just my two cents. Peace

 

[deleted898021]

Isn’t that the point of social media? At the end we will be fine. I can’t imagine having a conversation with some of these Debby Downers in real life. In fact I hope they don’t carry this into the real world when they are caring for actual humans. Let’s take for example WCUCOM for example (sdn punching bag. Last time I saw their match list they had a derm and NS match. Am I saying WCUCOM is a good school and shouldn’t be punished? No. I am saying by taking individual responsibility you can do well at any school. In fact when you become a doctor you will have to take individual responsibility. Your patients look up to you. Your family will look up to you. Your community will look up to you. Just my two cents. Peace

Well said, although I will say that wcucom gets way too much hate on SDN, the school has actually been improving and the new dean is taking the school in the right direction, just got the word that they had someone match urology and optho this year too, but ultimately how you do in school is inherently dependent on you and the amount of work you put in to be a competitive applicant in any field.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Isn’t that the point of social media? At the end we will be fine. I can’t imagine having a conversation with some of these Debby Downers in real life. In fact I hope they don’t carry this into the real world when they are caring for actual humans. Let’s take for example WCUCOM for example (sdn punching bag. Last time I saw their match list they had a derm and NS match. Am I saying WCUCOM is a good school and shouldn’t be punished? No. I am saying by taking individual responsibility you can do well at any school. In fact when you become a doctor you will have to take individual responsibility. Your patients look up to you. Your family will look up to you. Your community will look up to you. Just my two cents. Peace

Well said, although I will say that wcucom gets way too much hate on SDN, the school has actually been improving and the new dean is taking the school in the right direction, just got the word that they had someone match urology and optho this year too, but ultimately how you do in school is inherently dependent on you and the amount of work you put in to be a competitive applicant in any field.

It's SDN after all. It's living up to its reputation.

 

[Butters Stotch]

It's SDN after all. It's living up to its reputation.

It’s sad bc I really enjoy coming on here because there is so much great information as well as resources on here. Just can’t stand the nihilism.

 

[deleted831695]

I know, and that's exactly why I scratched EM off my list (that and other personal reasons). I don't think it will be long till their salary start dropping as well if it hasn't started already.

I jumped on the primary care train for a while especially IM because of the variety of sub-specialty I could do, but I'm slowly scratching that off my list too lol. With all these DO schools opening with goal to fix primary care, if they're going to have any GME development at all, it's most likely gonna be IM and FM which will eventually probably blow the market as well.

Instead, I'm now considering a specialty with very little expansion (if any), early specialization, decent income potential, and few people go for it which still make not very competitive and in high demand everywhere. Also, it's probably one the hardest specialty for residency, but I've been learning more about it lately, and I think I will like it. Hopefully I don't change my mind again.

You really think FM/IM will get that bad?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You really think FM/IM will get that bad?

I mean they're the two largest specialties already, their average salary isn't that high either (just a little over 200K), and we got leaders, school admins, and the media screaming out primary care physician shortage when in fact it's more of a distribution problem. The mission of most if not all DO schools is about primary care, and they do match most of their students into PC. Eventually some of the new schools are going to sponsor new GME programs, and when they do it's probably gonna be FM/IM for the most part which will probably further decrease the earning potential of PCPs at some point. Big city markets are already saturated, so I think it's only a matter of time before new PCPs reach those "underserved" areas with all the new graduates we're going to have in the next few years. Adding onto that PAs and NPs want to do the same things PCPs do. God forbid we have to compete with them too.

https://www.nbc-2.com/clip/14987177/florida-bill-would-allow-nurse-practitioners-physician-assistants-to-open-their-own-practices

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[BoneWizard]

Instead, I'm now considering a specialty with very little expansion (if any), early specialization, decent income potential, and few people go for it which still make not very competitive and in high demand everywhere. Also, it's probably one the hardest specialty for residency, but I've been learning more about it lately, and I think I will like it. Hopefully I don't change my mind again.

This sounds like neuro except they've had like 10% increases the last 4 years in a row.
I'm having the same thoughts you are. Went in gunning for FM/EM/IM but it seems like any EM doc I talk to tries warning me away from the field.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

This sounds like neuro except they've had like 10% increases the last 4 years in a row.
I'm having the same thoughts you are. Went in gunning for FM/EM/IM but it seems like any EM doc I talk to tries warning me away from the field.

Yep, except I didn't know they had that much increase in the last 4 year. Of the new residency programs being opened lately, I don't think I ever noticed even one Neuro among them. Although, I doubt that will have a major effect on the specialty since it is small to begin with, and 10% increase is still not a lot of programs being added compared to EM IMO.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[deleted898021]

I mean they're the two largest specialties already, their average salary isn't that high either (just a little over 200K), and we got leaders, school admins, and the media screaming out primary care physician shortage when in fact it's more of a distribution problem. The mission of most if not all DO schools is about primary care, and they do match most of their students into PC. Eventually some of the new schools are going to sponsor new GME programs, and when they do it's probably gonna be FM/IM for the most part which will probably further decrease the earning potential of PCPs at some point. Big city markets are already saturated, so I think it's only a matter of time before new PCPs reach those "underserved" areas with all the new graduates we're going to have in the next few years. Adding onto that PAs and NPs want to do the same things PCPs do. God forbid we have to compete with them too.

https://www.nbc-2.com/clip/14987177/florida-bill-would-allow-nurse-practitioners-physician-assistants-to-open-their-own-practices

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

While I want to say this may be true, I have also heard that FM salaries and hospitalist salaries are the highest they have ever been, there have been hospitalist making over 300k and the average is 250-260k even in mid size metro areas. Specialties such as psych, neuro, Gas and EM and PMR are still easily attainable as a DO and they have higher average salaries as well, also obgyn and gen surgery are fairly DO friendly as many aoa programs made the transition to the acgme.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I mean they're the two largest specialties already, their average salary isn't that high either (just a little over 200K), and we got leaders, school admins, and the media screaming out primary care physician shortage when in fact it's more of a distribution problem. The mission of most if not all DO schools is about primary care, and they do match most of their students into PC. Eventually some of the new schools are going to sponsor new GME programs, and when they do it's probably gonna be FM/IM for the most part which will probably further decrease the earning potential of PCPs at some point. Big city markets are already saturated, so I think it's only a matter of time before new PCPs reach those "underserved" areas with all the new graduates we're going to have in the next few years. Adding onto that PAs and NPs want to do the same things PCPs do. God forbid we have to compete with them too.

https://www.nbc-2.com/clip/14987177/florida-bill-would-allow-nurse-practitioners-physician-assistants-to-open-their-own-practices

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

This is a reasonable train of thought except I honestly highly doubt that any of these schools will open up GME unless they are forced to. And, as mentioned, that isn't the solution to the problem. The solution is COCA waking up and deciding to stop trying to make the number of DOs = MDs even though it means sub-par students. Also, I think the NP/PA/whatever market will crash on itself in a few years. From what I've heard from people, a lot of practices have multiple openings for docs but NPs are struggling to find positions. If people are paying the same copay, most of them want to see a doctor. This happened to my own family member-- went to the doc on an urgent visit, got seen by the PA (who completely mismanaged him), demanded the doctor, got appropriate care. Hospitals will wake up when they realize that long-term, NPs/PAs cost more because they order far more tests etc. It's easy to focus on the negative but FM and IM salaries have only gone up in recent years, so don't hop on the doom and gloom train so fast. Also, don't make a specialty choice 100% on this: tomorrow, reimbursement rates for knee replacements etc could be halved and ortho would lose most of their revenue. Nobody can predict the future.

 

[Mass Effect]

People acting like psych is the new Derm or something lmaoo. Know people who matched some good programs with less then 220 on USMLE from a DO school lol

Actually, as someone involved in the match psych is definitely getting more competitive, but the numbers are only to get you in the door and the average to get in is lower because there are other things that matter a hell of a lot more in psych. That's why a program is more willing to take a 220 over a 250 if the 250 didn't have the other qualities they were looking for (I've seen it happen). Numbers aren't everything in psych so it's widely attainable, unlike most other specialties, but it's still competitive in terms of number of slots. Just ask those who applied last year and had to SOAP with decent scores.

 

[deleted831695]

I mean they're the two largest specialties already, their average salary isn't that high either (just a little over 200K), and we got leaders, school admins, and the media screaming out primary care physician shortage when in fact it's more of a distribution problem. The mission of most if not all DO schools is about primary care, and they do match most of their students into PC. Eventually some of the new schools are going to sponsor new GME programs, and when they do it's probably gonna be FM/IM for the most part which will probably further decrease the earning potential of PCPs at some point. Big city markets are already saturated, so I think it's only a matter of time before new PCPs reach those "underserved" areas with all the new graduates we're going to have in the next few years. Adding onto that PAs and NPs want to do the same things PCPs do. God forbid we have to compete with them too.

https://www.nbc-2.com/clip/14987177/florida-bill-would-allow-nurse-practitioners-physician-assistants-to-open-their-own-practices

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

Lol, SDN doom and gloom is painful.

So any non-ultra competitive specialties not gunna be saturated in 10-15 years+?

 

[Sardonix]

I mean they're the two largest specialties already, their average salary isn't that high either (just a little over 200K), and we got leaders, school admins, and the media screaming out primary care physician shortage when in fact it's more of a distribution problem. The mission of most if not all DO schools is about primary care, and they do match most of their students into PC. Eventually some of the new schools are going to sponsor new GME programs, and when they do it's probably gonna be FM/IM for the most part which will probably further decrease the earning potential of PCPs at some point. Big city markets are already saturated, so I think it's only a matter of time before new PCPs reach those "underserved" areas with all the new graduates we're going to have in the next few years. Adding onto that PAs and NPs want to do the same things PCPs do. God forbid we have to compete with them too.

https://www.nbc-2.com/clip/14987177/florida-bill-would-allow-nurse-practitioners-physician-assistants-to-open-their-own-practices

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

You hit the nail on the head with it being a distribution problem. And midlevel encroachment is an issue as well. But otherwise I disagree with your take as I believe it grossly oversimplifies the situation.

First off, median FM salary WITHOUT OB in 2019 was $230,000 East coast, $238,000 Midwest, $230,000 in the South, and like $240,000 West coast. 30-40,000 is a lot more than "just a little" over $200k. That's an entire average American's salary.

Second off, just because more FM/IM docs graduate does not mean their salaries are gonna plummet instantly or even over the next 10yrs. When it comes to supply and demand, the demand still far outweighs the supply. There are entire towns and counties within the Midwest where a physician does not work let alone live. What's more, plenty of old physicians are retiring or aging out (as in they are +70yo and have only kept working because there is no one to replace them in their territory). There is a reason these places are hiring FM docs for +$400,000 a year--they need them to serve as the lifeblood of the local medical community. What's more--NPs and PAs are absolutely NOT filling in the gaps. These people flip from job to job far faster than physicians and, this just in, they are not picking up the jobs physicians have failed to fill. I am in a town of ~25,000 and the midlevel turnover is absolutely atrocious, whereas when a new physician comes in they stay for 3-5yrs minimum and receive a rockstar welcome when they move in.

An alumnus from our school who graduated in 2015 and is 2yrs out of residency just moved to Minneapolis for a tidy contract of $260,000 without OB and 3 call nights a month. As a personal side rant, I am dead tired of the conversation being a binary choice of living in poverty in NY/Bay/Chicago vs. being the town doctor for BFN Iowa. To be an FM or IM PCP these days means you can live and work just about ANYWHERE in the US and live extremely comfortably, at the very least. Given the oncoming baby boomer retirement and revitalization of primary care I am seeing among many large medical institutions, I highly doubt that will change any time soon. Honestly if someone complains how hard it is to be an FM doc because they can't imagine living in a place with less than 1million people I tell them to pound sand because that's such an unrealistic and tone deaf problem.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Well said, although I will say that wcucom gets way too much hate on SDN, the school has actually been improving and the new dean is taking the school in the right direction, just got the word that they had someone match urology and optho this year too, but ultimately how you do in school is inherently dependent on you and the amount of work you put in to be a competitive applicant in any field.

You are why they now get double the students. They probably quoted this statement in the report as ‘student support.’ Lol, hilarious, WCUCOM deserves all the smoke.

 

[Butters Stotch]

You hit the nail on the head with it being a distribution problem. And midlevel encroachment is an issue as well. But otherwise I disagree with your take as I believe it grossly oversimplifies the situation.

First off, median FM salary WITHOUT OB in 2019 was $230,000 East coast, $238,000 Midwest, $230,000 in the South, and like $240,000 West coast. 30-40,000 is a lot more than "just a little" over $200k. That's an entire average American's salary.

Second off, just because more FM/IM docs graduate does not mean their salaries are gonna plummet instantly or even over the next 10yrs. When it comes to supply and demand, the demand still far outweighs the supply. There are entire towns and counties within the Midwest where a physician does not work let alone live. What's more, plenty of old physicians are retiring or aging out (as in they are +70yo and have only kept working because there is no one to replace them in their territory). There is a reason these places are hiring FM docs for +$400,000 a year--they need them to serve as the lifeblood of the local medical community. What's more--NPs and PAs are absolutely NOT filling in the gaps. These people flip from job to job far faster than physicians and, this just in, they are not picking up the jobs physicians have failed to fill. I am in a town of ~25,000 and the midlevel turnover is absolutely atrocious, whereas when a new physician comes in they stay for 3-5yrs minimum and receive a rockstar welcome when they move in.

Those are of course the extreme examples. But I am dead tired of the conversation being a binary choice of living in poverty in NY/Bay/Chicago vs. being the town doctor for BFN Iowa. An alumnus from our school who graduated in 2015 and is 2yrs out of residency just moved to Minneapolis for a tidy contract of $260,000 without OB and 3 call nights a month. And honestly if someone complains how hard it is to be an FM doc because they can't imagine living in a place with less than 1million people I tell them to pound sand because that's such an unrealistic and tone deaf problem.

To be an FM or IM PCP these days means you can live and work just about ANYWHERE in the US and live extremely comfortably, at the very least. Given the oncoming baby boomer retirement and revitalization of primary care I am seeing among many large medical institutions, I highly doubt that will change any time soon.

to add on to this: i am from texas and the pcp shortage is criminally bad and there is no way 10-20 yrs of FM/IM expansion will fix that problem; mainly bc nobody wants to live in those rural areas hence why the shortage. I don't see the long-term benefits of living in a huge city: it's like choosing a mating partner based solely on attraction, sure she look's nice but look's fade and everything just turns out miserable. Plus would you rather be a big fish in a small pond or small fish in a big pond?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

to add on to this: i am from texas and the pcp shortage is criminally bad and there is no way 10-20 yrs of FM/IM expansion will fix that problem; mainly bc nobody wants to live in those rural areas hence why the shortage. I don't see the long-term benefits of living in a huge city: it's like choosing a mating partner based solely on attraction, sure she look's nice but look's fade and everything just turns out miserable. Plus would you rather be a big fish in a small pond or small fish in a big pond?

Cause these small towns are dying and have no one working anything but retail/fast food and/or slinging meth. Add in retires just trying to cont their Xanax 1mg tid plus oxymorphone 30 BID for their fibromyalgia that they got from doctor nurse, then you have a complete picture. That sound like the kind of place and peers you want your kids to be around? You sure you want to be the pariah in a town where winning the lottery is suing your physician successfully for a missed diagnosis?
Sometimes it’s better to not be only doc around.

there’s reasons some towns don’t have physicians.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Cause these small towns are dying and have no one working anything but retail/fast food and/or slinging meth. Add in retires just trying to cont their Xanax 1mg tid plus oxymorphone 30 BID for their fibromyalgia that they got from doctor nurse, then you have a complete picture. That sound like the kind of place and peers you want your kids to be around? You sure you want to be the pariah in a town where winning the lottery is suing your physician successfully for a missed diagnosis?
Sometimes it’s better to not be only doc around.

there’s reasons some towns don’t have physicians.

lol what?? stay away from the tv kid

 

[Sardonix]

Cause these small towns are dying and have no one working anything but retail/fast food and/or slinging meth. Add in retires just trying to cont their Xanax 1mg tid plus oxymorphone 30 BID for their fibromyalgia that they got from doctor nurse, then you have a complete picture. That sound like the kind of place and peers you want your kids to be around? You sure you want to be the pariah in a town where winning the lottery is suing your physician successfully for a missed diagnosis?
Sometimes it’s better to not be only doc around.

there’s reasons some towns don’t have physicians.

That's extremely cynical and inaccurate but okay.

Yes, there are reasons small towns struggle to hire docs. Your commentary is not a helpful contribution to that discussion though.

 

[Butters Stotch]

I can't believe people are going to take care of OTHER PEOPLE view humanity in such a light; I hope you stay the hell away from me dude

 

[Giovanotto]

Isn’t that the point of social media? At the end we will be fine. I can’t imagine having a conversation with some of these Debby Downers in real life. In fact I hope they don’t carry this into the real world when they are caring for actual humans. Let’s take for example WCUCOM for example (sdn punching bag. Last time I saw their match list they had a derm and NS match. Am I saying WCUCOM is a good school and shouldn’t be punished? No. I am saying by taking individual responsibility you can do well at any school. In fact when you become a doctor you will have to take individual responsibility. Your patients look up to you. Your family will look up to you. Your community will look up to you. Just my two cents. Peace

You're conflating the individual versus our governing body. We're being sold out. Do with that what you will, but stop trying to blame "debby downers". You gotta be kidding me.

 

[Giovanotto]

It’s sad bc I really enjoy coming on here because there is so much great information as well as resources on here. Just can’t stand the nihilism.

I disagree, AFAIK it's protectionism. Much rather have a "debby downer" on my side then someone who's optimistic about a future outside of their control.

 

[Giovanotto]

This sounds like neuro except they've had like 10% increases the last 4 years in a row.
I'm having the same thoughts you are. Went in gunning for FM/EM/IM but it seems like any EM doc I talk to tries warning me away from the field.

Correct. Hospitals are realizing how much money there is in stroke workup and care. I've interviewed at programs were it seemed like all residents did was take stroke call for 3 years. I don't think it's as much of a problem as EM, simply because Neurologists can always take their practice outpatient like FM/IM. I couldn't imagine doing a specialty that was hospital based only.

 

[Giovanotto]

That's extremely cynical and inaccurate but okay.

Yes, there are reasons small towns struggle to hire docs. Your commentary is not a helpful contribution to that discussion though.

It's extremely helpful and contextualizes the misinformation going on in this thread. Distribution, not shortage problem. And it's a distribution problem simply because some places are more desirable than others. It's like MS3s that share with me "I just want to match! I don't care where!", and then they spend 5k and months interviewing at god-knows-where and come back here to say "Lol place X sucked, I'd rather die then end up there". Rinse and repeat to residency and job placement. If you want to raise a family in podunk you're in the minority.

 

[Butters Stotch]

You're conflating the individual versus our governing body. We're being sold out. Do with that what you will, but stop trying to blame "debby downers". You gotta be kidding me.

Where did I say I am blaming anyone? I said its up to each individual do what is needed in order to ensure a successful match? Will going to some schools decrease your statistics? Sure, that is life. We are all dealt things that are outside of our control

I disagree, AFAIK it's protectionism. Much rather have a "debby downer" on my side then someone who's optimistic about a future outside of their control.

If you want to have a pitty party go ahead. In the end nobody is going to feel sorry for you and I mean nobody(the same goes that nobody will sorry for me), so I don't understand your notion of "victim mentality." AGAIN YOU ARE TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE. So a patient who comes in to see you "Doc is there anything I can do?" You: "Nah you are screwed"

 

[Giovanotto]

Where did I say I am blaming anyone? I said its up to each individual do what is needed in order to ensure a successful match? Will going to some schools decrease your statistics? Sure, that is life. We are all dealt things that are outside of our control



If you want to have a pitty party go ahead. In the end nobody is going to feel sorry for you and I mean nobody(the same goes that nobody will sorry for me), so I don't understand your notion of "victim mentality." AGAIN YOU ARE TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE. So a patient who comes in to see you "Doc is there anything I can do?" You: "Nah you are screwed"

You should be blaming schools and their governing bodies. They are charging a premium for a poor product, that is only going to get worse with increased number of students. And lol, stop making jabs at how we are around patients, I for one, can keep my professional life separate from my personal one.

 

[Butters Stotch]

You should be blaming schools and their governing bodies. They are charging a premium for a poor product, that is only going to get worse with increased number of students. And lol, stop making jabs at how we are around patients, I for one, can keep my professional life separate from my personal one.

It's basic economics man: everyone wants to become a doctor so they can charge more for a less quality product and they CAN STILL BE CHOOSY with applicants. I agree its god awful but it's the price we pay if we want the chance of becoming a doctor here. Sure its easy now but when happens when you are on day 3068 of being a doctor? How you think transcends further than you believe.

 

[Giovanotto]

It's basic economics man: everyone wants to become a doctor so they can charge more for a less quality product and they CAN STILL BE CHOOSY with applicants. I agree its god awful but it's the price we pay if we want the chance of becoming a doctor here. Sure its easy now but when happens when you are on day 3068 of being a doctor? How you think transcends further than you believe.

True, but that won't stop me from standing up for myself and my colleagues when the opportunity to do so arises. If you want to be someone that will continue to smile on day 3068 despite having a rod half way up their butt then be my guest, but that's not going to be me. How that makes you feel won't keep me up at night, so feel free to share if you'd like.

 

[Butters Stotch]

True, but that won't stop me from standing up for myself and my colleagues when the opportunity to do so arises. If you want to be someone that will continue to smile on day 3068 despite having a rod half way up their butt then be my guest, but that's not going to be me. How that makes you feel won't keep me up at night, so feel free to share if you'd like.

TBH I hope when its your turn to be in the position of the higher ups I hope you do change the way things are done. Not like most of our millennial friends who are all talk and no walk. I am honestly rooting for you. LOL I have reiterated this many times: but if you don't like being somewhere or they if don't value you then leave so if someone tries to shove a rod through me I will just walk away. I am not saying this to get into your head so I hope this doesn't keep you up at night.

 

[sab3156]

It's basic economics man: everyone wants to become a doctor so they can charge more for a less quality product and they CAN STILL BE CHOOSY with applicants. I agree its god awful but it's the price we pay if we want the chance of becoming a doctor here. Sure its easy now but when happens when you are on day 3068 of being a doctor? How you think transcends further than you believe.

This is about osteopathic education. Not stock index and commodity futures trading. There should be stricter rules in place by COCA to prevent schools like this from opening up. We're not operating on the efficient market theory here. Get real. Keep the economics talk out of this thread. We're dealing with a real life issue in which students are attending predatory medical schools that used to only exist in the Caribbean and some other places.

Are you pre-podiatry by the way? If so, why are you even here talking about this?

 

[Butters Stotch]

This is about osteopathic education. Not stock index and commodity futures trading. There should be stricter rules in place by COCA to prevent schools like this from opening up. We're not operating on the efficient market theory here. Get real. Keep the economics talk out of this thread. We're dealing with a real life issue in which students are attending predatory medical schools that used to only exist in the Caribbean and some other places.

Anything "privately" owned does come down to a business believe it or not. I never said there shouldn't be stricter rules is just how the system is set up. I bet if you told someone(who went through the cycle without an acceptance) all said things about X school I bet you they would take that acceptance and not blink twice. It's just how it works. Like I told Giovanatto when its your turn to make decisions I hope you do make the right ones for the sake of future doctors to be. I honestly do. I put that there when I first made my account and I am too lazy nor do I care enough to change it. If you browsed through my history you would see I will be attending an osteopathic medical school and I am proud to become a D.O.

 

[sab3156]

Anything "privately" owned does come down to a business believe it or not.

Osteopathic schools operate in a world regulated by the Department of Education and state laws. You need to stop lecturing people on "basic economics" when you have no clue about what you're talking about. Burger King can't serve burgers for $0.10 that have been kept outside overnight just because some people are desperate enough to eat it.

What we are talking about is a demand for more oversight by COCA - these schools should never have been allowed to open. They're predatory, period. All you're doing here is trying to have the last say. No one is taking your posts seriously because they sound like the admissions director at Idaho COM wrote them.

If you browsed through my history you would see I will be attending an osteopathic medical school and I am proud to become a D.O.

Ah yes. If I had the time to read through some random pre-med's posts, that would've been the best way to spend it.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Osteopathic schools operate in a world regulated by the Department of Education and state laws. You need to stop talking about "basic economics" when you have no clue about what you're talking about. Burger King can't serve burgers for $0.10 that have been kept outside overnight just because some people are desperate enough to eat it.

We are pushing for more oversight by COCA - these schools should never have been allowed to open. All you're doing here is trying to have the last say. No one is taking your posts seriously because they sound like the admissions director at Idaho COM wrote it.

right but the former isn't breaking any state laws or regulations by the Department of Education. Well if Burger King did that and started giving E. coli to everyone then they would have a huge lawsuit and it would hurt their bottom line. lol don't take them seriously. if you hate your enviornment,system,etc you want be able to maximize your potential

 

[Sardonix]

It's extremely helpful and contextualizes the misinformation going on in this thread. Distribution, not shortage problem. And it's a distribution problem simply because some places are more desirable than others. It's like MS3s that share with me "I just want to match! I don't care where!", and then they spend 5k and months interviewing at god-knows-where and come back here to say "Lol place X sucked, I'd rather die then end up there". Rinse and repeat to residency and job placement. If you want to raise a family in podunk you're in the minority.

Dude, there's a freaking difference between saying, "I don't like the idea of living in a small town" and "The only people who live there are meth dealers and fast food workers. Don't be a physician there because they're all gonna sue you so they can move out of the trailer park."

It does jack to contextualize anything because it's not an accurate context. It's not helpful because it proliferates the idea that working any place other than a major city is terrible and anyone living there is a loser. Walk into any residency interview and say that kind of crap and see how far that gets you.

Also going somewhere for residency and going somewhere to be an attending, start a career, and raise a family are entirely different things. Hell, family medicine residencies compared to other specialty residencies are entirely different things. There is an incredibly amount of nuance to this discussion and to act like your statement or the one you're defended are anything but counterproductive is hilarious.

 

[deleted831695]

Brah, I just want a 9-5, 4 days/wk job somewhere in Metro Detroit where I can make more than $180k per year for 30 years until I retire. But SDN has told me that Gas/EM/IM/FM/Path are doomed, and that's three of my top five specialties lol.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Brah, I just want a 9-5, 4 days/wk job somewhere in Metro Detroit where I can make more than $180k per year for 30 years until I retire. But SDN has told me that Gas/EM/IM/FM/Path are doomed, and that's three of my top five specialties lol.

I’m from Texas and I can tell you you get compensated really well for GAS and EM as well as other places around The south. Is compensation on the decline? Sure but sure is the compensation for most of all specialities. The only one that is really being screwed is Path. FM/IM is in a huge demand and if you work in a suburb in the right area you can make $250k.

 

[deleted831695]

I’m from Texas and I can tell you you get compensated really well for GAS and EM as well as other places around The south. Is compensation on the decline? Sure but sure is the compensation for most of all specialities. The only one that is really being screwed is Path. FM/IM is in a huge demand and if you work in a suburb in the right area you can make $250k.

I'd love to work somewhere in the Texas Triangle, ngl.

 

[Butters Stotch]

I'd love to work somewhere in the Texas Triangle, ngl.

compensation is above median for most specialties and did I mention no state income tax? My uncle who is a FM doc does locum gigs at ERs (rural places) for 6 weeks on and two weeks off. Travels to diff parts of the world for two weeks so there is that option for you.