New Schools

[sab3156]

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So stop projecting. I'm not making the news, just reporting it.

Come on, Goro... you just liked a comment postulating that the match rates for ophthalmology for osteopathic grades are low because they drop out due to matching in AOA... this is completely false because the SF Match occurs prior to AOA Match. Correct me if I am wrong, but you just learned what the SF Match was recently after assuming that it was the match in San Francisco, and had to be corrected by SDN users. Meanwhile, I am giving you information from the mouths of PDs and Chiefs. I don't like to live in a fantasy world. Stop with your misinformation.

 

[deleted898021]

Come on, Goro... you just liked a comment postulating that the match rates for ophthalmology for osteopathic grades are low because they drop out due to matching in AOA... this is completely false because the SF Match occurs prior to AOA Match. Correct me if I am wrong, but you just learned what the SF Match was recently after assuming that it was the match in San Francisco, and had to be corrected by SDN users. Meanwhile, I am giving you information from the mouths of PDs and Chiefs. I don't like to live in a fantasy world. Stop with your misinformation.

Firstly what I meant to say was that real match % of DO’s getting into optho is higher than what it says on the SF match because 1 program filled in the aoa match and all those people were DO’s so overall the % or people who did get Optho through both matches was higher than 20-30%. Also optho is a small field and very few DO’s are even applying to go into it, the number is less than 25-30 so a match % percentage means very little when assessing charting outcomes as it is just too a small sample size(ie there could be a few people who have no business applying optho still trying their luck) And hahah dude you need to chill and get a grip on life man . Relax a bit, get a drink and don’t complain soo much . God forbid that you actually crush it and match optho one day and it will be at a “low tier former AOA program” and it won’t be Harvard, but if you wanted Harvard or anything prestigious then you shouldn’t have gone DO, you knew it going in so quit complaining about it on an online forum ahah, but despite all this I do know that people match into traditional MD programs every year, maybe all these people’s dad or uncle is the PD but I find that hard to believe, and there ARE DO programs that made the transition where you still have a shot. MCG’s prorgam has had one DO every single year for the past few years for example. Be thankful for what you do have and focus on the positive and it will make life much better I promise haha. Also the PD’s and chiefs that you are talking to, how is it that they are talking to a lowly DO like you if they are PD’s and chiefs of some pretty high powered/tier optho program?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I don’t know why people argue with Sab on optho, I think he is one of the more connected posters on here in that regard and has been very consistent in his advice. He obviously has a much greater interest in his chosen field than the people trying to call him a downer. Anyway, you guys do you. At least we all agree that the DO degree needs strengthening not further dilution.

Edit: this is SDN why did I think for a second that it was ever about information. It’s all arguments for the heck of it, I should know better, my apologies.

 

[deleted831695]

There's a difference between realism and nihilism/pessimism, as well as acceptance and self-loathing.

 

[sab3156]

I don't care for the personal attacks, so I'll just address the factual errors in your post.

Firstly what I meant to say was that real match % of DO’s getting into optho is higher than what it says on the SF match because 1 program filled in the aoa match and all those people were DO’s so overall the % or people who did get Optho through both matches was higher than 20-30%.

I don't really think that's what you actually meant to say - you explicitly argued that the SF Match numbers are lower than what they could have been had the AOA match not taken place ahead of the SF Match and caused the people matching AOA to drop out from the SF Match. We have now established that this is impossible, as the SF Match happens way before the AOA match.

But that's completely different than what you are saying now - now you're talking about the AOA match and SF Match together. This is a new argument entirely that I don't find useful to get into because the AOA match is not the same thing as the ACGME SF Match, and no one was talking about it until just now.

Also optho is a small field and very few DO’s are even applying to go into it, the number is less than 25-30 so a match % percentage means very little when assessing charting outcomes as it is just too a small sample size(ie there could be a few people who have no business applying optho still trying their luck)

The sample size is not small when you take into account the match statistics over many years. You can add up the numbers from the past few years worth of SF Match reports and find that out for yourself. Match percentage means a lot when you actually add things up and find out that over the past few years there is a very significant sample size.

And no - after working with and speaking to many people involved in residency selection, it is very clear that the DO applications coming across their desks generally aren't people who have no business applying. I know of many programs that just flat out do not even bother opening the DO applications, and other programs who only consider them with some real big wig backing. A few programs may actually consider the DO applicant on the basis of his application alone, but this is likely a very rare thing and is a very big exception to the general rule. The fact remains that a lot of these programs are extremely hesitant to hand out interviews to DOs, if at all. Usually these interviews are due to big name letters and phone calls, or they have made really good friends at a particular program. That's just how it is. People should know these important facts because it will help them in the match. People should not go into the match thinking their 270 Step 1 and strong research will be enough.

There's a difference between realism and nihilism/pessimism, as well as acceptance and self-loathing.

Absolutely correct. But I can't blame you for confusing "realism" with "nihilism/pessimism" if they both sound the same in this case.

 

[deleted831695]

People should not go into the match thinking their 270 Step 1 and strong research will be enough.
Absolutely correct. But I can't blame you for confusing "realism" with "nihilism/pessimism" if they both sound the same in this case.

Sure homie, but the negativity overall on SDN gets tiring. We don't know how these post-merger years will turn out. Ever year, DOs match somewhere that nobody would have expected. We just have to hope those rockstar DOs in residency will impress their programs and reshape archaic narratives. Furthermore, that residencies will heed attention to the fact that the "top" DO schools now have low-tier MD-esque matriculant stats, solid clinical education and OPTIs (basically operate like a MD). As I've said before, if several of the top 15 residencies in a competitive specialty take in 1-2 DOs every few years, the bias will significantly decrease, if not go away altogether. The sad reality is that there are very easy fixes that have been repeated time and time again, but nobody at the top seems to understand it, or they're fully aware and just want the $$$.

DOs can help themselves if: There's a USNews or equivalent official ranking of DO schools. Yes, it won't be a great list, but it will help because it'll drive up competition among the schools to deliver a better product and be at the top of the list, so higher caliber students, more funding, and/or better clinical education are sought after. Make the new schools or branch campuses cap out by 2022, and those that are currently being approved must be very limited on available seats until they present a proper clinical education set-up for students. Eliminate the COMLEX/COMATs are eliminated, and add additional OMM sections to the MD exams. Hard cap OMM to 2 hours/week (many schools already do this) and require only MSK. If a school wants to teach cranial, sure, but don't test it on the boards. And last but not least, some of us need to stop having inferiority complexes. If you portray yourself and other DOs as lowly individuals not good enough to your MD colleagues, those perceptions propagate. I know it's a shock, but there are (more than) a handful of us who received MD acceptances, but chose DO for likely compelling reasons (usually family and significantly reduced cost).

 

[fldoctorgirl]

If a number of top twenty programs in a competitive specialty all took 1-2 DOs per year, then the bias will very quickly disappear. No prestige-boner MDs can say anything if many of the top residencies have a few DOs.

The established DO schools have low-tier MD matriculation averages, and places like PCOM and the state schools have teaching hospitals/hospital network and/or great GMEs. With the merger, top DO applicants will be more exposed. Every year, I see DOs breaking barriers and matching in legit places.

What’s honestly holding us back are the fools at COCA accepting new schools in Randomville, USA and these stupid branch campuses hundreds of miles away from the parent school, because the clinical education sites at these places will be suspect.

I agree with you. But my personal opinion is that they won't, because they get thousands of well-qualified MD applicants, and enough from top tier schools, to never have to take a DO. They will take an MD student with a 240 vs. a DO student with a 255 every day.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

You really think FM/IM will get that bad?

No

 

[Xe13phys]

Sounds like you are creating built in excuses for if you don’t match ophtho. If you don’t match it won’t be because you are a DO, it will be because you didn’t have application or personality to match.

I don't care for the personal attacks, so I'll just address the factual errors in your post.



I don't really think that's what you actually meant to say - you explicitly argued that the SF Match numbers are lower than what they could have been had the AOA match not taken place ahead of the SF Match and caused the people matching AOA to drop out from the SF Match. We have now established that this is impossible, as the SF Match happens way before the AOA match.

But that's completely different than what you are saying now - now you're talking about the AOA match and SF Match together. This is a new argument entirely that I don't find useful to get into because the AOA match is not the same thing as the ACGME SF Match, and no one was talking about it until just now.



The sample size is not small when you take into account the match statistics over many years. You can add up the numbers from the past few years worth of SF Match reports and find that out for yourself. Match percentage means a lot when you actually add things up and find out that over the past few years there is a very significant sample size.

And no - after working with and speaking to many people involved in residency selection, it is very clear that the DO applications coming across their desks generally aren't people who have no business applying. I know of many programs that just flat out do not even bother opening the DO applications, and other programs who only consider them with some real big wig backing. A few programs may actually consider the DO applicant on the basis of his application alone, but this is likely a very rare thing and is a very big exception to the general rule. The fact remains that a lot of these programs are extremely hesitant to hand out interviews to DOs, if at all. Usually these interviews are due to big name letters and phone calls, or they have made really good friends at a particular program. That's just how it is. People should know these important facts because it will help them in the match. People should not go into the match thinking their 270 Step 1 and strong research will be enough.



Absolutely correct. But I can't blame you for confusing "realism" with "nihilism/pessimism" if they both sound the same in this case.

 

[deleted898021]

Sounds like you are creating built in excuses for if you don’t match ophtho. If you don’t match it won’t be because you are a DO, it will be because you didn’t have application or personality to match.

100% agree, if you have the app(research, board scores etc) and are a good fit for the specialty, you should match a former AOA or lower tier MD program. Sab is just a downer and I get some of his complaining about DO schools in general but he is WAYYYY over board with it, meanwhile we have people from BCOM matching into loma Linda optho and urology, which according to Sab is probably because of “connections” because a DO can’t ever actually match optho straight on merit at an MD prorgam because the degree will hamper them soo much and that a PD will only even look at your app if like the president calls them and vouches for them or something hahah

 

[sab3156]

Sounds like you are creating built in excuses for if you don’t match ophtho. If you don’t match it won’t be because you are a DO, it will be because you didn’t have application or personality to match.

If you have anything of actual value to add (other than childish personal attacks), feel free. Until then, this discussion seems to be over.

 

[Sardonix]

No

Concur.

 

[hallowmann]

100% agree, if you have the app(research, board scores etc) and are a good fit for the specialty, you should match a former AOA or lower tier MD program. Sab is just a downer and I get some of his complaining about DO schools in general but he is WAYYYY over board with it, meanwhile we have people from BCOM matching into loma Linda optho and urology, which according to Sab is probably because of “connections” because a DO can’t ever actually match optho straight on merit at an MD prorgam because the degree will hamper them soo much and that a PD will only even look at your app if like the president calls them and vouches for them or something hahah

I won't comment on any individual's motives, but regarding connections.

The thing is, connections are not necessarily something impossible to get or a "dirty word" in medicine. It doesn't just mean your dad is buddies with the PD. Ophtho is a small field. People know each other. Your "connection" may just mean you went to all the big conferences in Ophtho, presented some research, met someone doing similar research and got along well with them and kept in touch. These types of connections are essential for Ophtho even as an MD applicant.

Meeting people and connecting is important in literally any small field, but this is done in different ways and DOs can certainly create connections for themselves. It doesn't make matching in that field any less impressive or somehow imply that their accomplishment of matching was any less impressive. Even the connection likely took a lot of work and time commitment.

 

[Goro]

I won't comment on any individual's motives, but regarding connections.

The thing is, connections are not necessarily something impossible to get or a "dirty word" in medicine. It doesn't just mean your dad is buddies with the PD. Ophtho is a small field. People know each other. Your "connection" may just mean you went to all the big conferences in Ophtho, presented some research, met someone doing similar research and got along well with them and kept in touch. These types of connections are essential for Ophtho even as an MD applicant.

Meeting people and connecting is important in literally any small field, but this is done in different ways and DOs can certainly create connections for themselves. It doesn't make matching in that field any less impressive or somehow imply that their accomplishment of matching was any less impressive. Even the connection likely took a lot of work and time commitment.

Agree 1000% with my wise colleague.

"Connections" isn't nepotism, it's networking. Even if you go chat with a PD who never, ever takes Dos, you might impress him/her enough to get a lead of a good program that will consider DOs, and maybe even get a letter of out that PD. It worked for some of my students, who ended up in very nice residencies.

 

[Allosteopath]

Are many students knowingly applying to DO schools with the intention to pursue PC residencies? I think that's an important factor to consider. If students are realistic about their likely career trajectory going in when deciding to attend a new DO school, then it may not be the worst option to pursue.

I know it's not necessarily a reason to consider new schools, but I've already had a great interest in FM and eventually opening my own clinic in a relatively rural area. The fact is, even at a new DO school, I don't think that this would be a barrier to achieving those goals. A large part of medical education puts the onus on the student, and I'm sure many successful students could have attended another institution and remained successful.

The only concern would be if for whatever reason I grew an interest in another specialty. Certainly not everyone changes their minds going in, but it seems to be commonplace in medical school. However, there are people who commit to podiatry or dentistry before even seeing what other aspects of medicine exist in the world. I guess in that way it requires some deep introspection on the part of prospective students to be able to accept that they will be in PC, and maybe it will take extra time to get to where you want to be geographically. Maybe this favours students of a particular background, or a specific personality. I don't really anticipate that the gunners, people who place their value on the magnitude of the achievements, or the extraordinarily risk averse would be suited to making decisions that could significantly alter career trajectory that early.

Will you be happier with a career as a primary care doc or whatever alternate career path you could have had? Thats the real question. Money isn't guaranteed to make you happy. Surprisingly I don't necessarily think the "Time worked vs Salary graphs" you find on SDN are the best way to make a decision that impacts your future happiness either. Experience life, feel emotions and try to make your job something you like to do. If you find yourself doing something you hate, make an effort to try making changes that let you hate it less rather than living in perpetual misery. Happiness isn't just matching into your residency of choice, but your approach to life.

 

[Xe13phys]

Well said + DOs may have to work harder to get connections but if they do it they will match wherever they want.

I won't comment on any individual's motives, but regarding connections.

The thing is, connections are not necessarily something impossible to get or a "dirty word" in medicine. It doesn't just mean your dad is buddies with the PD. Ophtho is a small field. People know each other. Your "connection" may just mean you went to all the big conferences in Ophtho, presented some research, met someone doing similar research and got along well with them and kept in touch. These types of connections are essential for Ophtho even as an MD applicant.

Meeting people and connecting is important in literally any small field, but this is done in different ways and DOs can certainly create connections for themselves. It doesn't make matching in that field any less impressive or somehow imply that their accomplishment of matching was any less impressive. Even the connection likely took a lot of work and time commitment.