New York programs

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Biscuit799

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After a quick forum search, I've discovered that despite the rather large amount of programs in NYC, there is little info on the individual programs. From what I gather, there is wild variation in the NYC programs, from super-malignant to great espirit du corps, and from super competitive to very easy to get into.

Does anyone know anything about any good and/or bad programs in NYC? Specifically (but not limited to) Sound Shore, Bronx-Lebanon, Maimonides, NY Methodist, St. Vincents, Stony Brook, or Staten Island?

Thanks in advance! Sorry about the vagueness of this question...

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They vary very widely in quality and breadth of training, as you noted. My personal opinion, having trained in one of New York's community programs, is that you'd be better off somewhere else unless: 1) you have family here and need to be close or 2) you have some undying need to be in New York City.

Other than that there are far better programs elsewhere in terms of training and a real education. You learn quite a bit of defensive medicine/surgery here in New York and how to milk the insurance companies for as much as possible while doing an un-godly amount of scut, but you may want that kind of thing.

I'll tell you a hundred times, if I could go back and do it all over again, I'd never train in New York.

If you have any specific questions about any specific program in New York, drop me a PM.

Good luck.
 
I'll tell you a hundred times, if I could go back and do it all over again, I'd never train in New York.

I completely agree with the above sentiments. I rotated thru some NYC hospitals for three months of cosmetic surgery. I was continually amazed at the lack of skill and knowledge of the combined plastic residents. I'm not sure what they learned in GS, but it wasn't how to operate. I have heard from others who did their GS training in NYC that they would rather have gone elsewhere.

That being said, I have heard that the North Shore program is quite reasonable for GS training, but again, I would stay out of NYC.
 
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The bottomline is that most programs in New York are focused on service rather than education. Your "training" will be in time management, how to effectively knock out scut, just so that you can have 15 minutes a day to read or so. And it's unnecessary. You have all this BS to deal with because of the powerful nursing unions, the constant fear of malpractice litigation, and the declining reimbursements that put the institution in financial jeopardy on an almost daily basis.

Now there are some programs here in New York that'll teach you to be a technical machine in the OR. You probably won't have the foggiest friggin' idea why you're doing what you're doing, but you'll do it well. Most programs have too much hand-holding from your attending staff that you'll likely be nothing more than a Bovie monkey your entire residency. This is an increasing trend across all programs around the country, though I think it's manifested an extreme here in New York. If you are a self-starter, can pick up a book and start reading after a day of getting your butt kicked by nursing staff left and right, then New York City will be okay for you.

Otherwise stay away. It's a great place to visit and live in, so long as you're not a physician.
 
The bottomline is that most programs in New York are focused on service rather than education. Your "training" will be in time management, how to effectively knock out scut, just so that you can have 15 minutes a day to read or so. And it's unnecessary. You have all this BS to deal with because of the powerful nursing unions, the constant fear of malpractice litigation, and the declining reimbursements that put the institution in financial jeopardy on an almost daily basis.

Now there are some programs here in New York that'll teach you to be a technical machine in the OR. You probably won't have the foggiest friggin' idea why you're doing what you're doing, but you'll do it well. Most programs have too much hand-holding from your attending staff that you'll likely be nothing more than a Bovie monkey your entire residency. This is an increasing trend across all programs around the country, though I think it's manifested an extreme here in New York. If you are a self-starter, can pick up a book and start reading after a day of getting your butt kicked by nursing staff left and right, then New York City will be okay for you.

Otherwise stay away. It's a great place to visit and live in, so long as you're not a physician.


I agree 100%. I moved to NY for college, loved it, and for med school wouldn't consider going anywhere else. I only applied to schools in NYC.

But after med school, when Match Day rolled around, only ONE of the residency programs on my list was in NY. And I ranked that program dead last.

What changed? The same features that make NYC a great place for med school make it a nightmare for residency. Hospitals are understaffed, every single nursing group and ancillary staff member is unionized to the gills, and the result is mediocre care (if that). As a student in NY, you learn very quickly to jump in and take care of patients, because you're *needed* to get the work done. Great for a student; bad for a resident, with so much already on your plate and so many details to absorb in spite of the scut. You have to argue with several people to get any test done in a timely fashion; you draw labs yourself; you draw morning VITALS yourself; "IV nurses" don't exist; you transport patients to radiology lest they never get transported at all. Do this for 30 patients, and suddenly your day doesn't leave much time for learnin' surgery.

I'm presently at a program that emphasizes service over education, but it's still a thousand times better than anything in NYC. In NY, I found that mentorship and teaching moments were scarce, because everyone was so miserable. The focus was on getting through the day, and then getting the hell out of there.
 
The bottomline is that most programs in New York are focused on service rather than education. Your "training" will be in time management, how to effectively knock out scut, just so that you can have 15 minutes a day to read or so. And it's unnecessary. You have all this BS to deal with because of the powerful nursing unions, the constant fear of malpractice litigation, and the declining reimbursements that put the institution in financial jeopardy on an almost daily basis.

Oh.

Are there any programs in NY that aren't that way?

PM me if you'd rather not get into specifics publicly.
 
Oh.

Are there any programs in NY that aren't that way?

PM me if you'd rather not get into specifics publicly.

I guess it sort of depends on what your threshold is gonna be for that balance between service and education. Arguably every program in the nation is going to have components of both, but some programs/areas of the country may have tipped the scale just a bit more in favor of service. I believe this to be the case here in New York City.

I've been intimately involved with two academic programs and two community programs here in New York City, all as a resident at the senior level of training. At none of these four programs, including my own, are didactics anything to write home about. If they exist, they kind of suck. Only two of these four programs (one academic and one community) is the operative experience better than most, I'd say, but that comes at the cost of whoring yourself out as a scut monkey on most days.

I'm not saying that residency is supposed to be all education. There should be some scut. That's what you're kind of there for anyhow. You provide a service and IN RETURN, "they" provide you an education. The problem here is that it seems that you can provide this service well, but "they" are more attuned to looking at their bottomlines constantly and worrying over their next pending malpractice case. It cuts into your education. You start practicing and thinking in a very defensive manner.

Technically I'm comfortable with how I've turned out, and so are most of my colleagues in this hole in the wall program of ours, but unless we kept up with our textbook/journals and crap we would've been nothing but mere scalpel jocks who haven't a clue what makes the world go round.
 
...in this hole in the wall program of ours, but unless we kept up with our textbook/journals and crap (to zero credit of our faculty, mind you...) we would've been nothing but mere scalpel jocks who haven't a clue what makes the world go round.

Ouch. Castro is it common knowledge where you trained in NY or are you keeping this to yourself?
 
There are many many programs in NYC and the surrounding areas.
Some are great, some are horrible. But its not particularly fair to make generalizations about them any more than it would be to say "all midwestern programs are x,y, and z" simply because there is so much variation.
On average, I think the level of scut and BS is higher here than other parts of the country, but that it also varies depending on institution. And there are probably institutions outside NY where the level is higher.
At the institution where I am currently, the department of surgery has a weekly M&M and grand rounds, in addition to a basic science lecture/interactive session. Residents have a weekly cover to cover/absite review meeting. Each service also has 1 or 2 regularly scheduled conference, plus scheduled teaching rounds. Interns have seminars for basic surgical skills biweekly. Plus the lap simulators and other things. And all of the above happen nearly every week. For example. And yes, we transport patients, call the lab to rush results, change dressings ourselves. How much you operate and the amount of teaching is service and attending dependant, as it is everywhere.
Truly, it depends what you are looking for in a program and how much where you physically are matters. If you have family/personal reasons for absolutely wanting to be in NY, then it really doesn't matter how the programs compare to the rest of the country--it matters which one is the best for you.
As for specific programs, I don't know much about the ones you did mention. I was impressed by St Lukes--lots of good changes, committed to residents, on the upswing. Underwhelmed by Stony Brook.
 
It's changed.

Hmm, not sure if I understand this answer but I'll take it as you don't want to tell which is completely understandable. Thanks for your input though.

Pol
 
i interviewed at ny programs (am not from NY), so take this with a grain of salt, but i can remember being struck at how, when you asked residents or med students at these places what the best part about the program was, almost 100% of the time, the answer was "it's in new york". this was a huge turn off for me. i mean, i realize that location is important... but for me, residency training is about a lot more than that. i did not get the impression that any of the programs were particularly happy places, they all required enormous amounts of scut, and it seemed like the fact that there were so many other programs in town sort of thinned out the strength of the programs. i had residents at each hospital tell me to go to another program if i were interested in X or Y, because "that's where you go in NY if you want to do X". i interviewed at 14 different programs, and the 4 ny programs where i interviewed were the only ones that seemed this way. in addition, a lot of applicants from ny were very ny obsessed- to the point where some of them didn't even apply outside the ny area- in a way that, again, i didn't see anywhere else. strange. just my $0.02.
 
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i can remember being struck at how, when you asked residents or med students at these places what the best part about the program was, almost 100% of the time, the answer was "it's in new

in addition, a lot of applicants from ny were very ny obsessed- to the point where some of them didn't even apply outside the ny area- in a way that, again, i didn't see anywhere else. strange. just my $0.02.

Maybe this is because NY is the best city in the country?! (IMHO)
:hardy:
 
Maybe this is because NY is the best city in the country?! (IMHO)
:hardy:

Agreed. NYC is the best in the world......but that doesn't explain the strengths of the programs in New York.
 
Any upsides at all to training in NYC (other than the city itself)?

It can't be the trauma - trauma is found everywhere. Maybe dealing with poor ancillary staff makes one stronger and less coddled? Surely there have to be some positives.
 
I just finished the match and went on 18 interviews- all in NY, NJ and Philadelphia (I love the Northeast and want to be close to family and friends). I applied from Boston to DC, but cancelled all interviews north of the Bronx and south of Philly. My conclusions-

1. The residents in NY (and UMDNJ-Newark) seemed to be more comfortable as doctors and more skilled as surgeons than the residents in NJ and Philadelphia area programs. My impression was that they have more responsibility, autonomy and confidence. One exception was Cornell, where I felt there was very little autonomy, and they still seemed like "doctors in training".

2. There is much more scut work in NYC. The NJ and Philadelphia programs had a cushier (?) vibe.

3. The NYC surgeons are very well connected. Maybe this helps with finding a good lab for research, getting a fellowship, etc... not really sure.

4. The patient population in NY is extremely diverse. I think it is important (and fun) to take care of the richest of the rich, the poorest of the poor, refugees, people who do not speak English, people with religious beliefs different than my own, and people with diverse lifestyles. NY scored points in this category as well.

5. The NY residents were very friendly, down to earth, motivated, and proud of their programs.

6. The didactics are better in the NYC programs. Even the community programs seemed to be more academic than the NJ and Philly university-based programs I visited. (Since I gave a negative comment about Cornell earlier, I will say that they impressed me the most academically-- enough for me to rank them #1, but I didn't match there.)

7. My goal is to be a technically awesome surgeon and not have any doors closed regarding fellowship. Most of the NY programs seemed to offer that.

8. There is ALWAYS something to do in Manhattan. While I don't expect to have much free time, it's nice to know that when I have a little, I won't be wasting it.

These are just some of my impressions. I only spent a couple of hours with each program, and many people will disagree with my conclusions, so don't base any decisions on this post alone.
 
1. The residents in NY (and UMDNJ-Newark) seemed to be more comfortable as doctors and more skilled as surgeons than the residents in NJ and Philadelphia area programs. My impression was that they have more responsibility, autonomy and confidence. One exception was Cornell, where I felt there was very little autonomy, and they still seemed like "doctors in training".

There may be a cockiness to some of the people you met in New York, but the autonomy isn't as great as you imply. This is a plain fact. While most programs' Chief Residents carry their own services (mine included), only a handful of these Chief Residents have any real autonomy in the OR. And even that's limited to run of the mill, bread-and-butter cases. The most complex thing I've ever done without an attending scrubbed in the room with me was a bowel resection.

I can't imagine my program (or any other) in New York ever letting a Chief do a Whipple on his own, at least not today. When I was a third-year med student (in New York), interestingly, my Chief Resident did a Whipple. It took him somewhere around 9 to 10 hours, but it got done.

2. There is much more scut work in NYC. The NJ and Philadelphia programs had a cushier (?) vibe.

There certainly is more scut.

3. The NYC surgeons are very well connected. Maybe this helps with finding a good lab for research, getting a fellowship, etc... not really sure.

Unless you're at one of the larger academic programs in New York City (Cornell, Columbia, Sinai, and NYU), the connections are generally more regional. The only significant number of "national-level" facutly members are at those four institutions.

4. The patient population in NY is extremely diverse. I think it is important (and fun) to take care of the richest of the rich, the poorest of the poor, refugees, people who do not speak English, people with religious beliefs different than my own, and people with diverse lifestyles. NY scored points in this category as well.

That depends on which program you're talking about. Not all the programs here in New York have an associated county or VA hospital.

5. The NY residents were very friendly, down to earth, motivated, and proud of their programs.

I find this to be true, but true in general for most General Surgery residents in the country.

6. The didactics are better in the NYC programs. Even the community programs seemed to be more academic than the NJ and Philly university-based programs I visited. (Since I gave a negative comment about Cornell earlier, I will say that they impressed me the most academically-- enough for me to rank them #1, but I didn't match there.)

I agree with your assessment of Cornell.

7. My goal is to be a technically awesome surgeon and not have any doors closed regarding fellowship. Most of the NY programs seemed to offer that.

Most New York area General Surgery residents end up doing their fellowships in other New York area institutions or they remain with their home institution.

8. There is ALWAYS something to do in Manhattan. While I don't expect to have much free time, it's nice to know that when I have a little, I won't be wasting it.

Yes, that's true. If you want Japanese food at 3AM, you can get it. I don't know why you would subject your stomach to that at 3AM, but by golly, it's there for the taking.


:)
 
I know that when it came time to do my ranking of programs- the program where I had performed aways at came to mind first becuase I knew what i was getting and could decide what I wanted.
 
... only a handful of these Chief Residents have any real autonomy in the OR. And even that's limited to run of the mill, bread-and-butter cases. The most complex thing I've ever done without an attending scrubbed in the room with me was a bowel resection.
...

Isn't this true just about anywhere you go? I'm kind of suprised that a resident did a whipple as you described below without staff around.

... I can't imagine my program (or any other) in New York ever letting a Chief do a Whipple on his own, at least not today. When I was a third-year med student (in New York), interestingly, my Chief Resident did a Whipple. It took him somewhere around 9 to 10 hours, but it got done. ...
 
Isn't this true just about anywhere you go? I'm kind of suprised that a resident did a whipple as you described below without staff around.

Sort of true nowadays, I suppose. From what I understand autonomy is supposed to be a bit better outside of New York. I'm not saying Chiefs are doing Whipples out there either, but the autonomy is a little more consistent (if that really means anything).

As for the Whipple? Yeah, if you knew this place, you wouldn't at all be surprised. It was staffed with an attending, to be sure, but he was drunk off his a$$ (like AOB kind of drunk off his a$$) and passed out at the desk inside the OR. And I still think he's there to this day... I think this particular Chief ended up going to Southwestern to train in CVTS.
 
At my school (not in NY), I've never seen a resident -chief or otherwise- with a scalpel/Bovie/lap pad in his hand unless an attending was scrubbed in. I've also never seen a resident do any significant part of a case without step-by-step direction from the attending. This program is well-respected and I think the residents are great, but on second looks, I've seen residents do much, much more.
 
At my school (not in NY), I've never seen a resident -chief or otherwise- with a scalpel/Bovie/lap pad in his hand unless an attending was scrubbed in. I've also never seen a resident do any significant part of a case without step-by-step direction from the attending. This program is well-respected and I think the residents are great, but on second looks, I've seen residents do much, much more.

It varies by program. Depends where you are and how they roll, but generally New York sucks in my opinion.
 
I have never seen a program outside of NY-NJ-PA, so like I said earlier, my observations don't mean much.
 
Hey guys,
I looked for any previous discussion on Cornell vs. Columbia but couldn't find anything recent. I know they're both solid programs but I can only interview at one of them? Can anybody comment on any differences between these programs for General Surgery? (i.e strengths, weaknesses, overall atmosphere)

thanks in advance
 
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1. The residents in NY (and UMDNJ-Newark) seemed to be more comfortable as doctors and more skilled as surgeons than the residents in NJ and Philadelphia area programs. My impression was that they have more responsibility, autonomy and confidence. One exception was Cornell, where I felt there was very little autonomy, and they still seemed like "doctors in training".

3. The NYC surgeons are very well connected. Maybe this helps with finding a good lab for research, getting a fellowship, etc... not really sure.

Yeah shout out to UMDNJ-Newark. I'm a student there, and did an away at NYU. Both have Community hospital as its hub, an associated private hospital (Tisch for NYU which is one of the highest regarded hospitals in the country, and Hackensack for UMD, which is one of the 5 biggest hospitals in the country with one of the busiest OR's), and VA hospitals. The residents were both similar. While I spent more time in Newark so I might be biased, technically speaking, I'd take the UMD residents over the NYU residents. Fellowships, this year it is a toss-up (UMD has WashU vascular, MGH and UCLA cardio, Monte and South Carolina Plastics vs NYU has NYU plastics, MSK for Surg Onc) but generally NYU gets much better. Didactics, the M&M was more friendly at NYU, but the residents get more out of the UMD M&M. Lectures/Basic Science was probably better at NYU, and apparently their curriculum has been publish like crazy and like 40 other programs are going to be using it. I anticipate struggling to decide which to rank 1 and which to rank 2 coming up, with all the other NY area programs after that. But I haven't seen anywhere else yet, so I don't know, but a single interview I probably won't know. At UMD, I have seen a PGY3 walk a PGY2 through a lap chole. A PGY4 walked me through an open chole (as part of a liver transplant). NYU the residents were shocked when the attending scrubbed for the Whipple (but it took him 14 hours to do, so it was quite a complicated one.

Cornell vs Columbia... I just interviewed at UMDNJ-Newark (where columbia goes for Trauma) and one chief told me 3 of the Columbia rotaters approached him to see if they can transfer into the program, another chief told me 4 came to him (2 he actively campaigned for too). These are guys I know and for the most part trust to not bull**** me (particularly since one of them said that if I think i'd be happy at NYU/Cornell/Columbia, to go there over here because the prestige factor of those programs will make it worth it come fellowship time). I have also heard though that Cornell is great academically but you don't get enough autonomy. I interview at Cornell in a few weeks, and Columbia in Jan, and I am interested to see what they have to offer.
 
I have to agree that the service to education ratio in NYC is unfavorable. I would avoid NYC for training.

Further, I would argue that any program where you must transport your own patients, place IVs, and where there is a powerful nursing union, is a poor place to train. There are many outstanding programs where you will not be required to perform these tasks, although they are not in NYC.

I have never understood the fascination with NYC. I have spent a significant amount of time there, and I agree that NYC is a great city. But I have seen many people talk themselves into going there even in the face of atrocious training conditions, and unbelievably low pay. Ask some general surgeons, ob/gyns, IM, FP, and anesthesiologists what the starting pay is for a job in NYC academia. Answer: 90-120k/yr.

I guess, there are people that just have to be in NYC no matter what the educational cost, or the opportunity cost. Personally, I don't get it. Living in NYC on 100k/yr wouldn't even let you take advantage of much of what the city offers anyway. It would however, limit you to a tiny apartment, and a steady diet of chinese takeout. But hey, you'd be in NYC.
 
The above is exactly why I didn't take a job in NYC.

I'd envisioned myself living the Carrie Bradshaw life complete with Manolo's, wearing Prada and hanging out at the Met. Truth was, that even as a surgeon, I couldn't afford those things and would be living in a crappy rent controlled apartment unless I wanted to live in one of the "other" boroughs or commute from another state.
 
These posts about the quality of life in NYC are really out of touch. Do you people base your impressions of how much it costs to live in nyc on the applebees prices in times square, or MTV's cribs new york episodes? No argument, if you are supporting 2 or 3 non-working people on a 100k salary, your quality of life will suffer for being in nyc. If that is what you are saying, then fine. Ignore the rest of the post.


If you are single or married to another person who is working, 100k in NYC is a lot of money; just like it is anywhere else. Entry level analysts at Goldman Sachs make about 100k a year, and trust me my friends who work there are not slumming it. They live in some of the most expensive zip codes in sizable apartments. They can't afford to buy their places, but they can rent, and still go out to dinner every night, and hit clubs 2-3 times a week. Granted they are all single and independent, usually without a big debt load, but there are vast in-betweens in nyc. Not everyone needs to live in a horrific slum or three doors down from Woody Allen. There are affordable accessible neighborhoods in manhattan, and there are nice leafy boroughs where, gasp, people choose to live.

The intangibles are what really make nyc worth it. The amount of stimulation and entertainment you can access with the tiniest amount of effort is outrageous. Finally, its worth mentioning that while the entry level salaries in nyc are (According to above posters) low, the ceilings are just about as high as they go in america. The tenured professors in our Neuro/ CT surg departments are all making over 7 figures. It can just get silly in private practice. I guess if you make it here, you can make it anywhere
 
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