newbie with a few ?s

[msmertka]

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hello, everyone.

I would just like to ask a few questionsand this seems like the place.

I am 30 this year, and after several years as a paramedic am returning to finish a BS and go to med school. I have to work full time, and go to school full time and I have come to grips with the fact it doesn't allow me to get a 4.0, or even a 3.5. Including summer semester, I should be able to finish my degree in about 2 years. Bio or Chem or both, I haven't decided. I have made up my mind what I want to do, burn and trauma surg. and was wondering what words of wisdom people here would offer. Also I came to this point from my often not so modest clinical skills, I was wondering if there are M.D. schools that are more interested in putting out good practicioners than researchers. (it has been my experience over the last year allopathic schools are always touting their MD/PhD programs.) On the other hand, DO doesn't seem to really put out a great deal of surgeons, but stress Pt. contact. MD. is my preferred route, as I want to play on the international stage, and many European countries do not recognize DOs as anything more than chiropracters. Is there an allopathic school that still believes in providers?

thanks in advance,
Mike

 

[efex101]

Well to be honest you need to do better than a 3.5 if you possibly can...medical school admissions is getting more difficult each year...the better the grades (more so for returning more mature students) the better your chances.

 

[QofQuimica]

Well to be honest you need to do better than a 3.5 if you possibly can...medical school admissions is getting more difficult each year...the better the grades (more so for returning more mature students) the better your chances.

I agree with this. OP, why do you "have" to work full-time and go to school full-time? Several of us just finished discussing this issue in another thread, and the consensus is that you're better off taking an extra year or two to finish your pre-reqs (go to school part-time if you must work full-time) and acing them and the MCAT, instead of trying to rush through your classes and ending up with a sub-par GPA and MCAT score.

 

[medworm]

There are some allopathic schools located in smaller settings that stress primary care or rural physicians. Look through MSAR at each school's profile for a clue about their mission. MSU and Vermont come to mind, as their MCAT scores and GPAs are lower as well.

Good luck!

 

[njbmd]

hello, everyone.

I would just like to ask a few questionsand this seems like the place.

I am 30 this year, and after several years as a paramedic am returning to finish a BS and go to med school. I have to work full time, and go to school full time and I have come to grips with the fact it doesn't allow me to get a 4.0, or even a 3.5. Including summer semester, I should be able to finish my degree in about 2 years. Bio or Chem or both, I haven't decided. I have made up my mind what I want to do, burn and trauma surg. and was wondering what words of wisdom people here would offer. Also I came to this point from my often not so modest clinical skills, I was wondering if there are M.D. schools that are more interested in putting out good practicioners than researchers. (it has been my experience over the last year allopathic schools are always touting their MD/PhD programs.) On the other hand, DO doesn't seem to really put out a great deal of surgeons, but stress Pt. contact. MD. is my preferred route, as I want to play on the international stage, and many European countries do not recognize DOs as anything more than chiropracters. Is there an allopathic school that still believes in providers?

thanks in advance,
Mike

Hi there,
Any medical school that you can get into in this country will prepare you for a career in any specialty. You do not need to attend an specific medical school in order to do a specific specialty. You DO need to choose your residency well as it is in residency that you learn the actual practice of the type of medicine that you will eventually practice. I will be the chief resident on burns and trauma surgery in three days and I promise you that the medical students on my service will be doing very little.

There are plenty of DO surgeons and attending an osteopathic medical school does not limit your choice of residency. Your performance at said school will limit what you are able to do and what residencies will be available to you. General Surgery went back into the competitive ranks this year so you need to have good grades in medical school regardless of MD or DO. Even if you want to work on an international basis, your residency is going to be more of a determinant than your medical school. Allopathic residencies are open to DO students.

If you cannot get your GPA above a 3.5, you are going to face an extreme uphill battle getting into any medical school in this country. It is far better to take longer and get better grades than to rush through and end up with a mediocre GPA. If you HAVE to work fulltime, then drop back on the classes.

njbmd 🙂

 

[msmertka]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice.
a few asked if I had to work FT and go to school FT and unfortunately the answer to both is yes. Work because I require that money to live, and school because financial aid requires FT status.

Njbmd, can I ask why your students will do so little? Perhaps they don't have very much background or confidence? The hospital I work at (metrohealth medical center) seems to let students do quite a bit. What hospital are you at?

Hi there,
Any medical school that you can get into in this country will prepare you for a career in any specialty. You do not need to attend an specific medical school in order to do a specific specialty. You DO need to choose your residency well as it is in residency that you learn the actual practice of the type of medicine that you will eventually practice. I will be the chief resident on burns and trauma surgery in three days and I promise you that the medical students on my service will be doing very little.

There are plenty of DO surgeons and attending an osteopathic medical school does not limit your choice of residency. Your performance at said school will limit what you are able to do and what residencies will be available to you. General Surgery went back into the competitive ranks this year so you need to have good grades in medical school regardless of MD or DO. Even if you want to work on an international basis, your residency is going to be more of a determinant than your medical school. Allopathic residencies are open to DO students.

If you cannot get your GPA above a 3.5, you are going to face an extreme uphill battle getting into any medical school in this country. It is far better to take longer and get better grades than to rush through and end up with a mediocre GPA. If you HAVE to work fulltime, then drop back on the classes.

njbmd 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice.
a few asked if I had to work FT and go to school FT and unfortunately the answer to both is yes. Work because I require that money to live, and school because financial aid requires FT status.

I'll warn you ahead of time, dear readers, that this post is strongly opinionated and not full of rose petals and puppy dog tails. 😛 But I do mean it to be constructive criticism, so I hope it will be taken in that spirit.

To the OP: Well, in that case, my next question would be about your standard of living. Are you living like a full-time student, or are you living like someone with a real job? I can tell you first hand that living like a full-time student at age 30 really bites, but it's one of those sacrifices that you may have to make if you want to maximize your academic record, and thereby maximize your chances of getting into med school. I work a part-time job and budget my expenses very carefully, and I have a roommate that I can't stand who stinks up my apartment with her disgusting cooking and leaves her bedroom window open while we're running the AC during the summer. 🙄 BUT, she pays her bills on time, she's reasonably clean and respectful of my things, and I sure do love her on the first of every month when the rent is due. 😉

I've been applying to MD schools this year, and they ALL care about numbers, even my clinically-oriented state schools. Several schools even have minimum cutoffs for GPA and MCAT, and if you don't meet them, they'll drop you with no interview (and maybe even no secondary) like a stone. Some schools care more than others about numbers, and sometimes things come up in your life where you can't help having lower numbers. But then you'd really better be stellar in every other way: MCAT, ECs, LORs, etc. This whole app process is already ridiculously painful as it is. If you go into it PLANNING to have lower numbers, you are really making what is already a long uphill slog infinitely tougher for yourself. And you haven't even mentioned whether you do any volunteering or shadow any surgeons. If you don't, you ought to start. Even perfect grades and MCAT scores alone are not enough to get you into med school.

I actually have no grades at all from college, and that has made my life difficult at several schools, in spite of my having good graduate school grades, excellent MCAT scores, clinical and volunteering ECs, and an extensive research and teaching background. I'm not meaning to complain, because I got in. But I find it hard to see anyone talk cavalierly about blowing off their GPA without at least trying to warn you that it's a d*** foolish and hubristic thing to do.

 

[njbmd]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice.
a few asked if I had to work FT and go to school FT and unfortunately the answer to both is yes. Work because I require that money to live, and school because financial aid requires FT status.

Njbmd, can I ask why your students will do so little? Perhaps they don't have very much background or confidence? The hospital I work at (metrohealth medical center) seems to let students do quite a bit. What hospital are you at?

Hi there,
My patients will be pediatric trauma and burn patients. The students can do histories, write daily notes and observe but there is little room for error in terms of actual procedures. My interns generally do not perform many procedures in these patients. In general, the attending and the chief resident will do most of the actual procedures and cases on these patients.

In terms of adults, again, the interns need to do most of the procedures, CT, central line insertions at this point in the year so that there is very little outside of writing daily notes and keeping up with things that medical students will be doing.

njbmd 🙂

 

[1Path]

But I find it hard to see anyone talk cavalierly about blowing off their GPA without at least trying to warn you that it's a d*** foolish and hubristic thing to do.

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Q on this one and I speak both from the experience of having had an MD/PhD acceptance I couldn't accept 5 years ago to having recently making HUGE mistakes preparing again for the MCAT (I should have retaken the preqs first).

I had a mentor once tell me that "you either want to work or get into med school" and I admit that I was EXTREMELY upset at what he said. But you know after maturing a little, I realized that he was exactly right. Applying to med school means competing with folks who will spare no expense so to speak getting in and most of them have the grades AND MCAT's to prove it.

Nontrads are said to have a more difficult time getting into med school based on numbers but I think if you look real hard and why the numbers aren't as competitive as trads, the issue of not heading the warning of others who have had some success in this process probably leads the list. I recently had a phone interview and let me tell you my interviewer didn't give a rats A$$ about how many hours I had to work, the fact that I balance a family with my academic pursuits, ect. To them, its' all excuses.

Bottom line, I think working full-time and going to school full-time is a terrible idea for anyone who plans to apply to med school.

 

[blee]

I've said it before, but Q said it for me this time. 🙂

Apparently, the most recently completed application cycle featured a 2.1% uptick in enrollment...accompanied by an 8.1% uptick in applicants. We seem to be in an upward trend, as far as applications go, and I all guarantee that the enrollment rates will not keep up. Any med school applicant, non-trad or otherwise, must realize that numbers are essential to success here. Unless and until you show up for an interview, all an adcom will know about you is your GPA, your MCAT score, and a little something from your personal statement.

On that last bit, though, no one will care about your extracurricular accomplishments if you don't also have good numbers. Unless you're truly extraordinary, you simply won't be able to hold down a 40 hour job and a 12 credit class schedule successfully. By "successfully," I mean getting As or A-s in all your classes. This is so crucial, not only for your GPA; if you put that much effort into your studies, you will be that much better prepared for the MCAT.

Again, no one will care that you had to work full-time if you don't ALSO have good grades. If you end up with a 3.0 GPA, adcoms will question your self-judgement and true commitment to medicine. If you really, really want this, you should be prepared to give up your income for a year. Take out loans to cover living expenses if you must; I did. After your year is done, go back to work without worrying about classes. You will be much happier for it, and you will be much more successful when you apply. The other option is to scale back on your courseload, which can also work, depending on how much time you want to spend before you apply.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

i am a student and soon to be app in the next year or two and I have to work full time, go to school full time, get in volunteering and shadowing, while being a father (will have 2 prior to matriculation) and i am only 22. the best advice that i have found that you can do it. it is going to be hard but when you get there you will have accomplished what many can't even with more factors holding you down. i know exactly how you feel about the GPA. I went in saying nothing less than a 4.0 and i will be happy with a 3.5. GOOD LUCK!

 

[benelswick]

Great thread topic, very key to the issues of working students.

Dear Mike--

i'm very similar in circumstance--blue collar job dependent on financial aid for tuition etc, work 40+, full-time student. I can't stress enough that you have been given superb and sage advice from a group of extremely sucessfull nontrad med students, acceptees, residents. If you fail to heed what's been said to you here you could find yourself a couple of years down the road with a huge investment of energy with no return.

If we cannot deliver the goods--grades, performance, etc--at our age with the inherent advantage of maturity, then we will not be promising candidates. nobody will care that back in our day we had to walk through the snow to school after we did our paper route at three in the morning, frankly nobody gives a ****. If you slam dunk the MCAT like Q or nail your gpa or have proven yourself as an academic in another field that could be useful in medicine and you worked full time well then sure that's icing on the gravy. In contrast if you scrambled a 3.3 gpa with 28 on the MCAT while working in lackluster field like mine, then your spam in a can on a buffet with pribe rib and lobster tail.

Forget for a minute that your life is extremely difficult and that you know you could make a fine physician given the time to develop yourself....because let's face it...we're not there yet, not even close. You have 2-3 years in which time you'll have cut the mustard or not. You owe it to yourself to give it your best shot. For me that ment transferring from the E.D. to a patient transport gig with enough down time to squeeze in some study time and taking all my vacation days and sick time to prepare for tests. So Far I'm pulling a 3.96 gpa in my pre req's at a decent state school, but that has to counter a previous career with a 2.9 gpa, so its uphill all the way. When it comes time for the MCAT I'm going to take a semester off and become a monk chanting physics formulas in gregorian style. I don't have any plans for excuses pertaing to my own path i only plan to kick ass and conquer, and that's the only way we can look at it.

good luck, Mike!--Ben.