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C. Ronaldo

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I went to the bookstore yesterday and saw a either Newsweek or Time magazine special edition about the US Healthcare system and about the careers of doctors and nurses. It was saying that medical school applicants are on the decline because not as many people want to be doctors anymore as they are severly overstressed and have far too many patients. Most of their time is apparently spent doing paperwork and patient visits have to be very fast. Most med students nowadays are all trying to go into specialities where the hours arent so bad - like dermatology, radiology, opthamology and anethesiology. Also it was saying that most doctors who when asked if they would choose the same profession said "No" they would choose something different. ANyone else read this?
 
hey, if med school applicants are declining, all the better for us. And, if you don't want to go into one of those specialties, all the better for you too. And i definitly do believe it that applicants are declining, since the examkrackers course i had signed up for was cancelled because not enough people signed up.
 
musiclink213 said:
hey, if med school applicants are declining

I hope you mean the number of med school applicants and not the applicants themselves 😉 The number of applications this year, I'm told almost everywhere, increased rather than declined so I'd probably take a closer look at the article.
 
GuyLaroche said:
I hope you mean the number of med school applicants and not the applicants themselves 😉 The number of applications this year, I'm told almost everywhere, increased rather than declined so I'd probably take a closer look at the article.

Yes I agree. I've also heard that the number of applications are increasing rather than the number of applicants. Anyone know anything else about this?
 
musiclink213 said:
And i definitly do believe it that applicants are declining, since the examkrackers course i had signed up for was cancelled because not enough people signed up.

This post is just a magnet for me! You would draw global inferences from your examkracker course being canceled? I think not enough people signing for examkracker is indicative of examkracker sucking more than number of applicants declining. Princeton review and Kaplan (particularly Kaplan) have the largest cut on the market leaving out lesser known review companies. This is probably why your examkracker course was canceled, no?
 
md applicants will never decline never...
 
I think people like saying "doctors don't make much money" or that they are overworked and overstressed just to make themselves feel less inferior. That's how I would explain everyone telling us about how being a doctor is not that special, be it the media or your best friend's mom.

It's much easier to say "I would never be a doctor" than to actually admit to having a desire to be one but never having the ability and/or means to actually accomplish the goal.

Applicants will go up or down, but the average mcat and gpa will not. There is are many reasons this is a competitive field to enter and those reasons will not be changing anytime soon.
 
medstyle said:
I think people like saying "doctors don't make much money" or that they are overworked and overstressed just to make themselves feel less inferior. That's how I would explain everyone telling us about how being a doctor is not that special, be it the media or your best friend's mom.

It's much easier to say "I would never be a doctor" than to actually admit to having a desire to be one but never having the ability and/or means to actually accomplish the goal.

Applicants will go up or down, but the average mcat and gpa will not. There is are many reasons this is a competitive field to enter and those reasons will not be changing anytime soon.

The jealousy argument is generally not a very good one - although I agree with you about the suspicious nature of the nay-sayers' intents.
 
i believe the magazine is US News.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050131/home.htm
the articles are actually pretty damn interesting.
and its really sad to admit it, but being a doctor isnt all that great anymore, considering all the work u put in and all the **** u have to deal with, just to "help" other people.

plus i can see how the bureauCRAZY that is health insurance is pissing them off. i would be pretty mad if i ever saved someones life and their insurance company wouldnt reimburse the money unless i fill out 20+ pages of paperwork.

"When Merritt, Hawkins surveyed residents to see if they would still go into medicine if they had it to do over again, those frustrations surfaced. In 2001,95 percent said they'd pick medicine over an alternative career. But in 2003--just two years later--that had dropped to 74 percent. "

and now a days, they also dont make as much money as people think:
"Indeed, doctors still earn a very good living--an average of about $150,000 for family practitioners and two or more times that for lucrative specialties like cardiology. But doctors also spend many years in training earning little or nothing and face big bills from med school. In 2003, the median debt for graduates of public med schools was $100,000 and, for those graduating from private schools, a whopping $135,000, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. (In 20 years, the median debt level has increased more than 4.5 times.) Meantime, malpractice insurance rates are still climbing. An obstetrician-gynecologist in Illinois could pay as much as $230,000 per year in Illinois or $90,000 in Los Angeles, according to Medical Liability Monitor. "
 
The decline in applicants was referring to the drop in applicants from the mid nineties to the past 5 years. Applicant numbers dropped from mid-high forty thousand to mid 30 thousands in this time period, but in the past couple years number have been increasing again, and by all accounts this years numbers should be up from last years.
 
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Hermit MMood said:
md applicants will never decline never...
Uh, they already did. They were around 45,000 in the mid-nineties, and they're only around 34,000 now.

The magazine was US News & World Report, btw. I read the whole thing.
 
TheProwler said:
Uh, they already did. They were around 45,000 in the mid-nineties, and they're only around 34,000 now.

The magazine was US News & World Report, btw. I read the whole thing.
Applicants bottomed out at 33,625 in 2002, down from a peak of 46,965 in 1996. The past two years have seen applicants rise approximately 1000 each year to 35,735 in 2004. This year is expected to show another increase, how much remains to be seen. MCAT exams administered were up by a relatively large margin this year and that has in the past correlated with increased applications as well.
 
Does it make anyone think twice about being a doc? Its actually an irrelevant article for me personally, as I could never be a doc in the US due to I dont have a greencard. I plan on being a doc in Europe though. What does everyone think about the projected shortage of docs in the US in the future?
 
GuyLaroche said:
This post is just a magnet for me! You would draw global inferences from your examkracker course being canceled? I think not enough people signing for examkracker is indicative of examkracker sucking more than number of applicants declining. Princeton review and Kaplan (particularly Kaplan) have the largest cut on the market leaving out lesser known review companies. This is probably why your examkracker course was canceled, no?

chill, i wasn't really meaning to make any sort of inferences from my class being cancelled. it was kinda like a joke. my class really was cancelled, but it probably was because the area the class was offered in doesn't exactly cater to large pre med schools. Most people in the uni's around the area are psych or business people. just trying to lighten the mood a bit. :luck:
 
Let me try to put things in perspective. I'm a non-trad applicant that has been in the workforce for 8 years since undergrad. I work in a sales career selling to industry (Mostly automotive, but also medical equipment etc.) Our customers range from all the Big 3 automakers to Steris and Innvocare (medical equipment).

There was a point where the top sales guys in our industry could make 300-500k per year. 150-200k was not uncommon at all. This started to change about 10 or 15 years ago. But, in the "good old days", sales guys MAY have had a CAR phone, had no internet or email, and actually received purchase orders through the mail! Customers were a LOT more loyal, margins were much more robust, and it was generally a "better" sales environment.

In today's environment, companies need to be ISO certified. This means that you need to pay a high priced consulting firm to help you set up "standard procedures" for every office function. If you don't get back to a customer in 4 hours on an quote request, they will go elsewhere. For many of our components we must provide a HUGE amount of supporting paperwork such as failure modes, mean time to repair.... And much more.
Sales guys are now doing much of the engineering, and paperwork functions that used to be handed by others much of the time. It takes 1/2 day in the office to support a full day of sales appointments etc.

With increased pressures on profits, and a world-wide economy, companies often make "knee-jerk" decisions depending on the marketing strategy of the "VP of the day". For publicly traded companies, management is held to super high levels of accountability from the shareholders and board of directors. Also, companies are doing much more with a lot less.

***The point is that this is just the way it is. The above conditions are not exclusive to my industry, but rather to all industries (healthcare included). I have family members that are business owners, investment bankers, teachers, you name it. They will all say that business is a lot less "fun" than "it used to be".

In the U.S. News articles, it showed that many docs that were around for the "good old days" are the most frusterated. I can see this, as I see our top management (the older guys- it's a male dominated industry) equally as frusterated. I've talked to people in many different industries, and they say the same. I was just talking to a buddy of mine yesterday. He'll have an MBA from UofM, works for a small, private equities company that handles buying and selling of companies. He's like, "man, it's tough. I feel like we walk in, do our presentation, and as we walk out, we're saying hello to our competition waiting in the lobby".

***So, will there be an increase in paperwork, beauracracy, and BS in healthcare? Yes, probably. Can this change down the road? Yeah it could.
Are patients loyal and respectful as they once were? According to many, not as much. It is what it is.

The way I choose to look at healthcare and becoming a doctor, is that it will always be a "high barrier to entry" field. Look how tough it is to get in!! It will always be interesting in terms of applied science and technology, and you will always be learning. Also, from my personal experiences as a volunteer, patients are still very appreciative of the care they receive. Regardless of the fact that docs really have to keep moving and can't spend too much time with them (kind of sucks).
Your colleagues will all be quite educated compared to the general public. And there will always be personal rewards such as being able to make a difference in someone's life.

Will docs make as much money as they once did? I don't think so (personally). Is it still worth it? Yes. I was recently chatting with a buddy that's a family practitioner. He said, "you'll make great money, and will be able to pay back your loans without much difficulty". Yeah it's expensive, but these are lowere interest loans (much lower than a mortgage!), and you can pay them back over longer periods of time. He said not to let that be a factor in your decision.

I volunteer in the ED at a local hospital. I've seen some burned out docs and nurses. But, it's obvious that the majority of the docs enjoy what they do. You can just tell. Also, when I ask around "So, would you do it again?". I'd say 70% say they would. And it's the older docs that tend to be a bit more jaded, since they see how healthcare has changed so much. But, most of the younger docs (under 40) seem to really like what they are doing, and seem quite happy, and fullfilled.
 
C. Ronaldo said:
I went to the bookstore yesterday and saw a either Newsweek or Time magazine special edition about the US Healthcare system and about the careers of doctors and nurses. It was saying that medical school applicants are on the decline because not as many people want to be doctors anymore as they are severly overstressed and have far too many patients. Most of their time is apparently spent doing paperwork and patient visits have to be very fast. Most med students nowadays are all trying to go into specialities where the hours arent so bad - like dermatology, radiology, opthamology and anethesiology. Also it was saying that most doctors who when asked if they would choose the same profession said "No" they would choose something different. ANyone else read this?
While I didn't read the article I have noticed a trend in rejection letters indicating an increase in applications. So if there is indeed a decrease in applicants perhaps each is applying to more schools? Otherwise it doesn't add up to have a 20% increase in applications recieved with a decrease in applicants.
 
It's been shown that applications to medical school follow trends in the economy inversely. Since a doctor has good job security there tend to be more applications in years in which the economy is poor (last few years) and less in years where the economy is good (mid 90's).

The reason for this is that in times where the economy is good and jobs are plentiful more people are going to look for high paying jobs with fewer work hours than physicians.

VPDcurt said:
Yes I agree. I've also heard that the number of applications are increasing rather than the number of applicants. Anyone know anything else about this?
 
cfdavid said:
Let me try to put things in perspective. I'm a non-trad applicant that has been in the workforce for 8 years since undergrad. I work in a sales career selling to industry (Mostly automotive, but also medical equipment etc.) Our customers range from all the Big 3 automakers to Steris and Innvocare (medical equipment).

There was a point where the top sales guys in our industry could make 300-500k per year. 150-200k was not uncommon at all. This started to change about 10 or 15 years ago. But, in the "good old days", sales guys MAY have had a CAR phone, had no internet or email, and actually received purchase orders through the mail! Customers were a LOT more loyal, margins were much more robust, and it was generally a "better" sales environment.

In today's environment, companies need to be ISO certified. This means that you need to pay a high priced consulting firm to help you set up "standard procedures" for every office function. If you don't get back to a customer in 4 hours on an quote request, they will go elsewhere. For many of our components we must provide a HUGE amount of supporting paperwork such as failure modes, mean time to repair.... And much more.
Sales guys are now doing much of the engineering, and paperwork functions that used to be handed by others much of the time. It takes 1/2 day in the office to support a full day of sales appointments etc.

With increased pressures on profits, and a world-wide economy, companies often make "knee-jerk" decisions depending on the marketing strategy of the "VP of the day". For publicly traded companies, management is held to super high levels of accountability from the shareholders and board of directors. Also, companies are doing much more with a lot less.

***The point is that this is just the way it is. The above conditions are not exclusive to my industry, but rather to all industries (healthcare included). I have family members that are business owners, investment bankers, teachers, you name it. They will all say that business is a lot less "fun" than "it used to be".

In the U.S. News articles, it showed that many docs that were around for the "good old days" are the most frusterated. I can see this, as I see our top management (the older guys- it's a male dominated industry) equally as frusterated. I've talked to people in many different industries, and they say the same. I was just talking to a buddy of mine yesterday. He'll have an MBA from UofM, works for a small, private equities company that handles buying and selling of companies. He's like, "man, it's tough. I feel like we walk in, do our presentation, and as we walk out, we're saying hello to our competition waiting in the lobby".

***So, will there be an increase in paperwork, beauracracy, and BS in healthcare? Yes, probably. Can this change down the road? Yeah it could.
Are patients loyal and respectful as they once were? According to many, not as much. It is what it is.

The way I choose to look at healthcare and becoming a doctor, is that it will always be a "high barrier to entry" field. Look how tough it is to get in!! It will always be interesting in terms of applied science and technology, and you will always be learning. Also, from my personal experiences as a volunteer, patients are still very appreciative of the care they receive. Regardless of the fact that docs really have to keep moving and can't spend too much time with them (kind of sucks).
Your colleagues will all be quite educated compared to the general public. And there will always be personal rewards such as being able to make a difference in someone's life.

Will docs make as much money as they once did? I don't think so (personally). Is it still worth it? Yes. I was recently chatting with a buddy that's a family practitioner. He said, "you'll make great money, and will be able to pay back your loans without much difficulty". Yeah it's expensive, but these are lowere interest loans (much lower than a mortgage!), and you can pay them back over longer periods of time. He said not to let that be a factor in your decision.

I volunteer in the ED at a local hospital. I've seen some burned out docs and nurses. But, it's obvious that the majority of the docs enjoy what they do. You can just tell. Also, when I ask around "So, would you do it again?". I'd say 70% say they would. And it's the older docs that tend to be a bit more jaded, since they see how healthcare has changed so much. But, most of the younger docs (under 40) seem to really like what they are doing, and seem quite happy, and fullfilled.

I completely agree w/ what you are saying about bureaucratization being a trend in all industries, not just medicine. (or rather, this is the message that my dad has preached all my life to me). I'm actually surprised at the big fuss the articles are creating. Surely this topic has been heavily covered in the past?
 
skoaner said:
While I didn't read the article I have noticed a trend in rejection letters indicating an increase in applications. So if there is indeed a decrease in applicants perhaps each is applying to more schools? Otherwise it doesn't add up to have a 20% increase in applications recieved with a decrease in applicants.

I believe this year most adcoms saw a significant increase in applications from last year. At least that what they all indicated in interviews.
Not sure if this is a small upward one year bump/bubble in an overall downward historical trend, though.
 
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cfdavid said:
Let me try to put things in perspective. I'm a non-trad applicant that has been in the workforce for 8 years since undergrad. I work in a sales career selling to industry (Mostly automotive, but also medical equipment etc.) Our customers range from all the Big 3 automakers to Steris and Innvocare (medical equipment).

There was a point where the top sales guys in our industry could make 300-500k per year. 150-200k was not uncommon at all. This started to change about 10 or 15 years ago. But, in the "good old days", sales guys MAY have had a CAR phone, had no internet or email, and actually received purchase orders through the mail! Customers were a LOT more loyal, margins were much more robust, and it was generally a "better" sales environment.

In today's environment, companies need to be ISO certified. This means that you need to pay a high priced consulting firm to help you set up "standard procedures" for every office function. If you don't get back to a customer in 4 hours on an quote request, they will go elsewhere. For many of our components we must provide a HUGE amount of supporting paperwork such as failure modes, mean time to repair.... And much more.
Sales guys are now doing much of the engineering, and paperwork functions that used to be handed by others much of the time. It takes 1/2 day in the office to support a full day of sales appointments etc.

With increased pressures on profits, and a world-wide economy, companies often make "knee-jerk" decisions depending on the marketing strategy of the "VP of the day". For publicly traded companies, management is held to super high levels of accountability from the shareholders and board of directors. Also, companies are doing much more with a lot less.

***The point is that this is just the way it is. The above conditions are not exclusive to my industry, but rather to all industries (healthcare included). I have family members that are business owners, investment bankers, teachers, you name it. They will all say that business is a lot less "fun" than "it used to be".

In the U.S. News articles, it showed that many docs that were around for the "good old days" are the most frusterated. I can see this, as I see our top management (the older guys- it's a male dominated industry) equally as frusterated. I've talked to people in many different industries, and they say the same. I was just talking to a buddy of mine yesterday. He'll have an MBA from UofM, works for a small, private equities company that handles buying and selling of companies. He's like, "man, it's tough. I feel like we walk in, do our presentation, and as we walk out, we're saying hello to our competition waiting in the lobby".

***So, will there be an increase in paperwork, beauracracy, and BS in healthcare? Yes, probably. Can this change down the road? Yeah it could.
Are patients loyal and respectful as they once were? According to many, not as much. It is what it is.

The way I choose to look at healthcare and becoming a doctor, is that it will always be a "high barrier to entry" field. Look how tough it is to get in!! It will always be interesting in terms of applied science and technology, and you will always be learning. Also, from my personal experiences as a volunteer, patients are still very appreciative of the care they receive. Regardless of the fact that docs really have to keep moving and can't spend too much time with them (kind of sucks).
Your colleagues will all be quite educated compared to the general public. And there will always be personal rewards such as being able to make a difference in someone's life.

Will docs make as much money as they once did? I don't think so (personally). Is it still worth it? Yes. I was recently chatting with a buddy that's a family practitioner. He said, "you'll make great money, and will be able to pay back your loans without much difficulty". Yeah it's expensive, but these are lowere interest loans (much lower than a mortgage!), and you can pay them back over longer periods of time. He said not to let that be a factor in your decision.

I volunteer in the ED at a local hospital. I've seen some burned out docs and nurses. But, it's obvious that the majority of the docs enjoy what they do. You can just tell. Also, when I ask around "So, would you do it again?". I'd say 70% say they would. And it's the older docs that tend to be a bit more jaded, since they see how healthcare has changed so much. But, most of the younger docs (under 40) seem to really like what they are doing, and seem quite happy, and fullfilled.

excellent post cfdavid; thanks for sharing the perspective of someone that has had significant time outside of academics! I would like to interject that when the beuracritization becomes so onerous as to impede proper health care delivery that is where the tension in the argument lies. The field isnt set up to deal with preventive care which adds a dimension of burden to the system, and part of that may be exacerbated by less patient contact. But I do agree that there is alot of bitching that is unwarranted, at least when taking into consideration the changing scheme of 'things' in general. But at the end of the day the most important industry (ok, its debate-able) is health care, and it needs to be a well-oiled machine.
 
One thing many elder doctors fail to mention is that medicine we practice may be vastly different from the current medicine.

Many health experts predict that new specialties would come up within next 10-20 years because of new techonology, such as nanotechnology, stem cell, cloning...etc, and some specialites will disappear. Surgeries for cancer, for example, may greatly decrease because of improvment in radiation technology and medicine.

Because of improving techonolgy, it could be possible that less doctors are needed, or it is also possible that more doctors are needed because people are living longer.

We have to have an open mind and be flexible. Who knows? 10 years from now, neurosurgeons may disappear.
 
cfdavid said:
Let me try to put things in perspective. I'm a non-trad applicant that has been in the workforce for 8 years since undergrad. I work in a sales career selling to industry (Mostly automotive, but also medical equipment etc.) Our customers range from all the Big 3 automakers to Steris and Innvocare (medical equipment).

There was a point where the top sales guys in our industry could make 300-500k per year. 150-200k was not uncommon at all. This started to change about 10 or 15 years ago. But, in the "good old days", sales guys MAY have had a CAR phone, had no internet or email, and actually received purchase orders through the mail! Customers were a LOT more loyal, margins were much more robust, and it was generally a "better" sales environment.

In today's environment, companies need to be ISO certified. This means that you need to pay a high priced consulting firm to help you set up "standard procedures" for every office function. If you don't get back to a customer in 4 hours on an quote request, they will go elsewhere. For many of our components we must provide a HUGE amount of supporting paperwork such as failure modes, mean time to repair.... And much more.
Sales guys are now doing much of the engineering, and paperwork functions that used to be handed by others much of the time. It takes 1/2 day in the office to support a full day of sales appointments etc.

With increased pressures on profits, and a world-wide economy, companies often make "knee-jerk" decisions depending on the marketing strategy of the "VP of the day". For publicly traded companies, management is held to super high levels of accountability from the shareholders and board of directors. Also, companies are doing much more with a lot less.

***The point is that this is just the way it is. The above conditions are not exclusive to my industry, but rather to all industries (healthcare included). I have family members that are business owners, investment bankers, teachers, you name it. They will all say that business is a lot less "fun" than "it used to be".

In the U.S. News articles, it showed that many docs that were around for the "good old days" are the most frusterated. I can see this, as I see our top management (the older guys- it's a male dominated industry) equally as frusterated. I've talked to people in many different industries, and they say the same. I was just talking to a buddy of mine yesterday. He'll have an MBA from UofM, works for a small, private equities company that handles buying and selling of companies. He's like, "man, it's tough. I feel like we walk in, do our presentation, and as we walk out, we're saying hello to our competition waiting in the lobby".

***So, will there be an increase in paperwork, beauracracy, and BS in healthcare? Yes, probably. Can this change down the road? Yeah it could.
Are patients loyal and respectful as they once were? According to many, not as much. It is what it is.

The way I choose to look at healthcare and becoming a doctor, is that it will always be a "high barrier to entry" field. Look how tough it is to get in!! It will always be interesting in terms of applied science and technology, and you will always be learning. Also, from my personal experiences as a volunteer, patients are still very appreciative of the care they receive. Regardless of the fact that docs really have to keep moving and can't spend too much time with them (kind of sucks).
Your colleagues will all be quite educated compared to the general public. And there will always be personal rewards such as being able to make a difference in someone's life.

Will docs make as much money as they once did? I don't think so (personally). Is it still worth it? Yes. I was recently chatting with a buddy that's a family practitioner. He said, "you'll make great money, and will be able to pay back your loans without much difficulty". Yeah it's expensive, but these are lowere interest loans (much lower than a mortgage!), and you can pay them back over longer periods of time. He said not to let that be a factor in your decision.

I volunteer in the ED at a local hospital. I've seen some burned out docs and nurses. But, it's obvious that the majority of the docs enjoy what they do. You can just tell. Also, when I ask around "So, would you do it again?". I'd say 70% say they would. And it's the older docs that tend to be a bit more jaded, since they see how healthcare has changed so much. But, most of the younger docs (under 40) seem to really like what they are doing, and seem quite happy, and fullfilled.

cfdavid - very good post. being a non-trad myself, your reasoning struck some chords with me too.

i guess most of us non-trads will encounter the twinges as to whether we're doing the right thing or not. the thing to remember is that the grass is not all that green on THIS side of the fence either 🙂
 
TripleDegree said:
cfdavid - very good post. being a non-trad myself, your reasoning struck some chords with me too.

i guess most of us non-trads will encounter the twinges as to whether we're doing the right thing or not. the thing to remember is that the grass is not all that green on THIS side of the fence either 🙂

I agree that the grass is very seldomly greener on the other side of the fence. It's so easy to "glamorize" another career.

In fact, that's part of what I was trying to convey. I've seen many posts where fellow pre-meds have refered to other industries as if they were not as effected by such "trends" as medicine has become. But, it's important for pre-meds not to get discouraged about the prospects of medicine, without knowing that these types of pressures are common to all industries.

But, all in all, medicine is a great field, and though it is changing, it's still a great way to go.

I highly doubt that the paperwork and beauracracy will decrease, but I am optimistic that it could be automated in some way, or at least delegated to others so that docs can be freed up to do what they are trained to do best.
I think this will happen, actually.
 
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