Next Dental School to Close?

[TylerDMD]

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With tuition at private schools going up over 10% per year and tuition including room/board past $80,000/year at several schools, I see the closure of a school within the next 5 years imminent. Expensive schools with smallish endowments are at the most risk.

We're rapidly approaching the point where the aggregate tution is putting an almost impossible burden on the graduating dentist.

What do you guys think these danger schools are?

Tufts, BU, NYU, UOP, NOVA are some of the ones with big tution numbers and low endowements. Let's not forget Northwestern, Georgetown, and Emory were very fine schools that got the axe due to this very reason.

Is there anything we can do to control this rapid tution increase? Maybe a student protest or strike?

Tyler

 

[Utes]

How do you know what their endowments are? US News and World Report shows Tufts (the entire university, not just the dental school) as having an endowment of $771,793,379.00. Considering that they only have 4,913 undergrad students and roughly 3,600 grad students, that doesn't seem like a "small" endowment to me... but then again, I'm not really sure what you would consider a large endowment. The dental school also just got a 5 million dollar gift to endow a chair in public health. So where do the numbers come from?

Utes

 

[Yah-E]

What do you guys think these danger schools are?

Tufts, BU, NYU, UOP, NOVA are some of the ones with big tution numbers and low endowements.

Tyler

NSU is one of the cheaper private schools out there where annual student budget (tuition + living expenses) is still well below $60K/year? The school will be around for some time. No worries there.

 

[TylerDMD]

Well Harvards got close to $25 Billion so I would consider Tufts $.75 Billion small. Northwestern has $5 billion, it's school closed. Emory has over $4 billion, its school closed. Georgetown has $.8 billion, it's school closed...humm, you really think Tufts is safe with $750 million?

Tyler

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

With tuition at private schools going up over 10% per year and tuition including room/board past $80,000/year at several schools, I see the closure of a school within the next 5 years imminent. Expensive schools with smallish endowments are at the most risk.

We're rapidly approaching the point where the aggregate tution is putting an almost impossible burden on the graduating dentist.

What do you guys think these danger schools are?

Tufts, BU, NYU, UOP, NOVA are some of the ones with big tution numbers and low endowements. Let's not forget Northwestern, Georgetown, and Emory were very fine schools that got the axe due to this very reason.

Is there anything we can do to control this rapid tution increase? Maybe a student protest or strike?

Tyler

Sorry again. NYUCD is not going anywhere. Been around over 130+ years and has always been the expensive school. Plus, this school has some big research bucks coming in now and the fact that the old dean is now in control of finances for the entire NYU community, money will be there.

 

[Hmmwhat]

I don't think any of your mentioned schools will be closing any time soon. And I don't think you can lower the tuition to any of these schools or others. In fact many schools aught to raise their tuition. Schools have to pay their faculty competitive salaries to attract them from private practice so until practitioners are willing to take a further cut this won't happen. I would also suggest that the schools more likely to shut down would be those not willing to invest into the necessary infrastructure that would bring the school to modern technology. There are still many schools with nice endowments that have really bad facilities. One of the best things about a private school is that it is run largely independent from the state and federal government which in my opinion is the most effecient way. You can not bail this out with government money because you will just end up paying for it in taxes and citizens due not need to burden themselves with paying for your higher education especially when you will be making a lot of money in the future to where you can pay back a high debt.

 

[docious]

What do you guys think these danger schools are?

No dental school will be closing anytime soon...

Everyone knows how competitive it's been to get into dental school. As this trend increases, schools will have no problem finding students to fill seats, and pay even higher tuition.

As long as the demand stays strong, no dental school is going anywhere.

 

[scalpel2008]

one has to wonder if dental schools would be better off applying the medical school/residency model to their system. In medical teaching institutions, the attendings make money off of the patients that are seen by the residents. Likewise in dental school, dental students do millions of dollars of denitstry. If the faculty saw a percentage of the money they treatment plan, perhaps they could hire more and better faculty and keep dental schools in business. I believe currently the problem has a lot to do with a shortage of faculty and faculty who are just not motivated to work for 80K.

 

[Dukie]

I hate to be the one to say it, but I'm fairly sure another school will close within the next five to ten years. I know many of you are defensive about your schools and I don't know which it will be, but operating a dental school is incredibly expensive for a university and it loses money. Public schools are not likely to close because the states need to train dentists, but private schools are all fair game. None of those who closed within the last 25 years did so because they wanted to- they simply were not financially sound.

 

[TylerDMD]

I think the tuition + living expenses threshold is $100,000/year. When the private schools surpass this, I think they will start to shut down from a lack of supply of quality people willing to pay this kind of money. Sure, they can fill the school with chuckleheads at $250,000 per year but such a school won't live for long.

I don't think this situation has anything to do with the "demand" for dental education. It's very obvious that demand FAR outstrips supply. I think it more has to do with the out of control operating expenses, inefficiency, lack of support from the mother-university and lack of faculty.

You'll never see medical schools close because they are usually the jewel of the university but the dental school is seen more as an expensive liability. Likewise, public dental schools will not close (other than Nevada) because they can operate at a loss indefinitely with public support.

Obviously, I can't prove any of these comments but time will tell in the next 5-10 years. I expect 3-5 schools to be gone by 2015.

Tyler

 

[der.Faust]

i think there is a magic number. Maybe its 80K or 100k per year. Once tuition etc.. exceeds that number the demand will fall and a school will close.

 

[Hmmwhat]

The problem with public schools is that tax payers don't want to pay for them. I certaintly do not want to pay to lower the tuition for a professional student, perhaps paying for subsidized loans but not to flat out lower the tuition for someone else.

I also feel that public dental schools tend to lack their share of funding because the regents tend not to allocate them the funds once the receive it from the state. I saw this first hand when I went to UCSF and UCLA and spoke with some of their administrators.

I also believe public schools are a lot slower in changing their policies as far as hiring and letting go of faculty, of adapting new technology, and modernizing facilities. Private schools are the way to go especially when they are associated with private universities. They are less political, less beuracratic, and operate more like a buisness.

I still can't see any schools shutting down despite cost.

 

[Dukie]

I also believe public schools are a lot slower in changing their policies as far as hiring and letting go of faculty, of adapting new technology, and modernizing facilities. Private schools are the way to go especially when they are associated with private universities. They are less political, less beuracratic, and operate more like a buisness.

Do you actually have any reasoning to back these grandiose statements up? What are these policies you speak of? Some of the public universities have the top faculty in the country- UNC, San Antonio, Michigan, etc. And in terms of technolgy, many of the most advanced schools are public- MD, for example, is opening a new facility next year, while Columbia's building is the same as it was before my father went there over 35 years ago.

 

[Hmmwhat]

Do you actually have any reasoning to back these grandiose statements up? What are these policies you speak of? Some of the public universities have the top faculty in the country- UNC, San Antonio, Michigan, etc. And in terms of technolgy, many of the most advanced schools are public- MD, for example, is opening a new facility next year, while Columbia's building is the same as it was before my father went there over 35 years ago.

The only backing that I have was when I visited the schools in California. I spoke with some of the faculty and administrators, and perhaps I am a little tainted in attending one of the UC schools and experiencing first hand how politics at the large state schools can be in bringing about change and having faculty members who should have retired many years ago still get full funding for only working a third of the time. Granted some of these schools have excellent technology but how many students actually get to use it, and MD I have herd a lot about their new facilities and think it is wonderful. I don't know anything about your father, but I wonder how much of a role he is playing in the advancement in his schools facilities. Once a student graduates they have a responsibility to continually support their school, but perhaps that should be another discussion. How much support do schools get from their alumni and how does this factor into the schools survival.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Well Harvards got close to $25 Billion so I would consider Tufts $.75 Billion small. Northwestern has $5 billion, it's school closed. Emory has over $4 billion, its school closed. Georgetown has $.8 billion, it's school closed...humm, you really think Tufts is safe with $750 million?

Tyler

Those DENTAL schools closed, but the universities are still functioning fine. Dental schools closing has nothing (or very little) to do with endowment monies, which is what you've based your entire argument on.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I hate to be the one to say it, but I'm fairly sure another school will close within the next five to ten years. I know many of you are defensive about your schools and I don't know which it will be, but operating a dental school is incredibly expensive for a university and it loses money. Public schools are not likely to close because the states need to train dentists, but private schools are all fair game. None of those who closed within the last 25 years did so because they wanted to- they simply were not financially sound.

Good post, and I agree with you.

 

[ElCubanito]

Well Harvards got close to $25 Billion so I would consider Tufts $.75 Billion small. Northwestern has $5 billion, it's school closed. Emory has over $4 billion, its school closed. Georgetown has $.8 billion, it's school closed...humm, you really think Tufts is safe with $750 million?

Tyler

It has been for the past 150 years.

 

[smileeface]

I think the tuition + living expenses threshold is $100,000/year. When the private schools surpass this, I think they will start to shut down from a lack of supply of quality people willing to pay this kind of money. Sure, they can fill the school with chuckleheads at $250,000 per year but such a school won't live for long.

I don't think this situation has anything to do with the "demand" for dental education. It's very obvious that demand FAR outstrips supply. I think it more has to do with the out of control operating expenses, inefficiency, lack of support from the mother-university and lack of faculty.

You'll never see medical schools close because they are usually the jewel of the university but the dental school is seen more as an expensive liability. Likewise, public dental schools will not close (other than Nevada) because they can operate at a loss indefinitely with public support.

Obviously, I can't prove any of these comments but time will tell in the next 5-10 years. I expect 3-5 schools to be gone by 2015.

Tyler

Hi all, has anyone heard of the rumor about many people are frustrated with UNLV for being a "public" institution while the faculty are particularly and actively recruiting students who are of Mormon backgrounds?

 

[CorneliusFudge]

Hi all, has anyone heard of the rumor about many people are frustrated with UNLV for being a "public" institution while the faculty are particularly and actively recruiting students who are of Mormon backgrounds?

Yeah, it's the same people who are freaking out about minorities "taking" their seats in dental school. Has nothing to do with a 2.9GPA and 18DAT. 😀

Admissions committees are looking for people with maturity, life experience, and an almost pathologic work ethic. That happens to describe a lot of mormon applicants.

It's like saying the NBA is specifically recruiting black players at the expense of white guys. NO, they're looking for the best players they can find. The fact that the best players are often black is irrelevant.

 

[cuneatus2]

Hi all, has anyone heard of the rumor about many people are frustrated with UNLV for being a "public" institution while the faculty are particularly and actively recruiting students who are of Mormon backgrounds?

How many mormons live in Las Vegas?

 

[smileeface]

Yeah, it's the same people who are freaking out about minorities "taking" their seats in dental school. Has nothing to do with a 2.9GPA and 18DAT. 😀

Admissions committees are looking for people with maturity, life experience, and an almost pathologic work ethic. That happens to describe a lot of mormon applicants.

It's like saying the NBA is specifically recruiting black players at the expense of white guys. NO, they're looking for the best players they can find. The fact that the best players are often black is irrelevant.

This is a rumor that's circulating in many dental clinics in LV. I personally do not have any opionions if UNLV want to recruit anyone from any particular religious backgrounds. That being said, however, some people don't like the fact that it is a public institution with public funding supporting the dental school.

 

[smileeface]

How many mormons live in Las Vegas?

Not sure how many live in the state but Utah is its neighbor. Have you ever heard of a dental school recruiting prospective students?

 

[Typo]

How many mormons live in Las Vegas?

More than you would think - I remember looking at statistics for it 5-10 years ago or so and Nevada was 10% Mormon (lots of Mormons in small towns to the north of Vegas, though). Vegas grows like crazy, though, so 5-10 years might have changed things significantly. Still, compared to the east coast, it's a relative Mormon stronghold.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

My instructor went to tufts and graduated in 1951. He paid $450 a year. Adjust that for inflation and it comes out to around $4k in today's dollar value

What the hell happened that the cost of school has outpaced inflation by 10x ?????

If tuition continues at historical inflation (which it hasn't) it will be $352,000 a year in 2062

 

[Lesley]

$352,000.

It wouldn't surprise me. My husband's brother graduated from dental school 8 years earlier than him in 1973 from the same dental school.
He graduated with less than $20,000 in debt, my husband 8 years later $65,000. Inflation during the late 70's and early 80's was in the double digits.

My husband's other brother, the accountant, bought a house in our neighborhood 5 years before us, it was new and larger. They paid half of what we did. Our house was smaller and nine years old. They had an interest rate of 6-7%. Ours was 12%.

What happened? Inflation happened. Inflation changes your life. Prices go up your buying power goes down. Incomes have not kept pace with the cost of life, and that is a problem for many. We are hearing a lot now about the have and the have nots. Opportunity for everyone has not been and will never be equal, but now it may be more divided economically than ever.

The economy is inflationary now.

The adage timing is everything is true. Many students that have graduated recently have consolidated and locked in student loan interest rates, for some, of not even 2%. You will have 6.8% and 8.5% interest rates on your student loans. The difference this will make in your monthly payment over the next 30 years is huge.

Not fair! No, it isn't. Any 2 year old will tell you life is not fair. But this is what you will have to deal with, and you will.

Value yourself, value your education, do good work and get paid what you deserve. It took us a long time to learn this lesson. Don't let insurance companies tell you what you deserve to make. Patients will believe what the insurance company tells them you deserve to be paid for a procedure. Unfortunately, insurance companies are not your friends when it comes to this area. Many of you who read this board have heard other dentists discussing this topic. Make what you need to have a nice life. You've worked hard, will work hard, you've put a lot of time and money into becoming a dentist and you will continue to do so, especially if you purchase a practice, even if you don't continuing education still costs money, you deserve to be compensated. Value yourself.

Good luck everyone. Be happy! Lesley

My instructor went to tufts and graduated in 1951. He paid $450 a year. Adjust that for inflation and it comes out to around $4k in today's dollar value

What the hell happened that the cost of school has outpaced inflation by 10x ?????

If tuition continues at historical inflation (which it hasn't) it will be $352,000 a year in 2062

 

[DIRTIE]

More than you would think - I remember looking at statistics for it 5-10 years ago or so and Nevada was 10% Mormon (lots of Mormons in small towns to the north of Vegas, though). Vegas grows like crazy, though, so 5-10 years might have changed things significantly. Still, compared to the east coast, it's a relative Mormon stronghold.

I believe Las Vegas has about 180,000 to 200,000 LDS, roughly 10% of the population, Yes the student body at the dental school is definately more than 10% LDS.