NIH Defunding (news) vs Defense Research

[OxToCA]

I'm curious about your opinions on the 20% NIH budget cut and likely boost to defense-related research funding as it relates to potential HPSP applicants (e.g. would they be more interested in applying if they want/know they can do funded research in practice after completing their obligations); there's a lot of doom and gloom talk in the physician scientist forum about this NIH Could Face $6 Billion cut in new budget. Here's a link to my post in the pre-MD Health Professions Scholarship Program and pre-DO Health Professions Scholarship Program sub-forums about it, which states the following:

"

Bump; I attended USUHS's open house last week, and also met an HPSP representative/practicing navy physician.

USUHS is across the street from the NIH, and its medical students can do research there; I'm going to look into whether HPSP students at other medical schools can do the same and post what I find out. If you want me to send any questions to the above Doctor, feel free to ask/pm me and I'll look into that, too.

Although I'm still researching the above, I wanted to bump this thread with an update since there has been a lot of talk on other sub-forums (e.g. Physician Scientists: NIH Could Face $6 Billion cut in new budget & Business: Should I do a MD/MBA if I want to have my own Pharmaceutical company? & the Sociopolitical Lounge: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/opinion-on-new-fda-commissioner.1247385/) about the recent 20%/$6 billion NIH budget cut.

Defense-related research funding will not be affected and is most likely going to get a boost; posters in all of the above linked threads have stated the same, including moderators.[/USER]"

In other words, it'd be great if HPSP recipients could be involved with defense-based research in medical school at/through the DoD, NIH, etc. as well as during residency and payback, even on a small basis, to support doing it afterward.

FWIW, I want to go to USUHS for medical school while doing research at the NIH (or do the HPSP), and support and/or develop research networks with HPSP recipients at other medical schools. I don't want to pursue a research career, though; I want to work on clinical trials via a clinical pharmacology fellowship at WRAIR.

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[psychbender]

Even if funding increased, the military is a horrible route if the desire is to be a physician-scientist. It's not just about money, it's also about carving out dedicated time and space for research, which is ridiculously difficult in the military. Do not believe what recruiters tell you. Further, that "budget" is a wishlist from the president, nothing more. Congress still needs to pass a budget incorporating those changes. Further, budgets change from year to year, and administration to administration. Don't commit yourself to a career in the military just because there may be a change in funding NOW when you wouldn't be in a position to be affected by it for several years (at which point, the funding pattern may well be reversed).

Bottom line, ignore this crap you're hearing, proceed with a civilian career. If the military does suddenly become a huge medical research power (immensely unlikely), you can always join then.

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[OxToCA]

Even if funding increased, the military is a horrible route if the desire is to be a physician-scientist. It's not just about money, it's also about carving out dedicated time and space for research, which is ridiculously difficult in the military. Do not believe what recruiters tell you. Further, that "budget" is a wishlist from the president, nothing more. Congress still needs to pass a budget incorporating those changes. Further, budgets change from year to year, and administration to administration. Don't commit yourself to a career in the military just because there may be a change in funding NOW when you wouldn't be in a position to be affected by it for several years (at which point, the funding pattern may well be reversed).

Bottom line, ignore this crap you're hearing, proceed with a civilian career. If the military does suddenly become a huge medical research power (immensely unlikely), you can always join then.

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edited my original post

 

[narcusprince]

The .mil is a horrible place to go if you are interested in research. Look at places like CCF with a dedicated medical school geared toward research. The .mils focus is on meeting the mission. Not research. I could not imagine juggling, clinical practice, research, officer duties. This is a horrible idea for someone going into research. Its sad because the military used to be a research power house 20-30 years ago. Now their main focus is streamlining care with budget cuts and practice extenders.

 

[Homunculus]

.If the military does suddenly become a huge medical research power

will be about the same time hell freezes over. those glory days they cling to keep slipping further into the past. when the photos of the icons of military research are still in black and white you know something is up. not that they don't do research but the days of being a research power (at least in medicine) is dead.

--your friendly neighborhood bruton was a military doc caveman

 

[OxToCA]

Adding to my original post, I'm starting a blog/website at http://www.milmedicine.com
which will describe my experiences applying to USUHS and for the Army's HPSP, in medical school/officer training, and eventually as a resident and physician; doing so will allow me to provide prospective HPSP applicants with correct information about the application process, BOLC/medical school/residency/practice ref. Army - Army HPSP Website @Armyhealth

If any military physicians/members are willing to do a Q&A that will be featured on the website and get the ball rolling, feel free to pm me.

@Homunculus speaking of black and white outdated websites, I'm going to try and get a decent website designer to set ^^ up.

 

[narcusprince]

Adding to my original post, I'm starting a blog/website at http://www.milmedicine.com
which will describe my experiences applying to USUHS and for the Army's HPSP, in medical school/officer training, and eventually as a resident and physician; doing so will allow me to provide prospective HPSP applicants with correct information about the application process, BOLC/medical school/residency/practice ref. Army - Army HPSP Website @Armyhealth

If any military physicians/members are willing to do a Q&A that will be featured on the website and get the ball rolling, feel free to pm me.

@Homunculus speaking of black and white outdated websites, I'm going to try and get a decent website designer to set ^^ up.

Reinventing the wheel? You remind me of a young Perrotfish....

 

[Gastrapathy]

Reinventing the wheel? You remind me of a young Perrotfish....

lol

 

[OxToCA]

Wrote to researchers at USUHS regarding placement there (for biomarkers/drugs for CNS disorders and TBI) during medical school, and called about current volunteer opportunities related to my MSc; will edit/bump with what I find out.

For reference, here are a list of research centers at USUHS: Centers | Uniformed Services University

 

[narcusprince]

Honestly I have seen more research come out of the nursing usuhs community then physician based research. You should go to nursing school!

 

[OxToCA]

Wrote to researchers at USUHS regarding placement there (for biomarkers/drugs for CNS disorders and TBI) during medical school, and called about current volunteer opportunities related to my MSc; will edit/bump with what I find out.

For reference, here are a list of research centers at USUHS: Centers | Uniformed Services University

Good news; by doing research in a lab at USUHS, I could work toward a research-based capstone project (e.g. paper/poster). I'm not sure how competitive residencies and fellowships are in the military (ref. attachment), but I couldn't imagine that having the above wouldn't help matching them. Admissions said that volunteering for research is possible, and I'm waiting to hear back from the prostate cancer center (I'm researching a prostate cancer imaging agent for my MSc); the process is described at: How can I find/apply for a volunteer researcher opportunity at USUHS? | Uniformed Services University

In other news, the Army is increasing its numbers by 28,000 Army is hiring: Army increases end strength by 28,000 Soldiers, which includes 1,000 officers. Does anyone know if they're planning to increase the # of HPSPs and/or increase outreach to potential students?

 

[Helpful Troll]

In other news, the Army is increasing its numbers by 28,000 Army is hiring: Army increases end strength by 28,000 Soldiers, which includes 1,000 officers. Does anyone know if they're planning to increase the # of HPSPs and/or increase outreach to potential students?

Not likely to increase the HPSP numbers to support this end strength increase by Sept 30 2017 . The increased need is immediate and for line/support units. For the officers, they already changed a large number of June and December 2016 ROTC commissioned graduates switching them from Reserve forces to AD. HPSP is a 7+ year timeline for a residency trained physician.

What is your end game? How long until you take the MCAT and apply to medical school?

The .mil is a horrible place to go if you are interested in research. Look at places like CCF with a dedicated medical school geared toward research. The .mils focus is on meeting the mission. Not research. I could not imagine juggling, clinical practice, research, officer duties. This is a horrible idea for someone going into research. Its sad because the military used to be a research power house 20-30 years ago. Now their main focus is streamlining care with budget cuts and practice extenders.

 

[OxToCA]

Not likely to increase the HPSP numbers to support this end strength increase by Sept 30 2017 . The increased need is immediate and for line/support units. For the officers, they already changed a large number of June and December 2016 ROTC commissioned graduates switching them from Reserve forces to AD. HPSP is a 7+ year timeline for a residency trained physician.

What is your end game? How long until you take the MCAT and apply to medical school?

Thanks for the info.

And, I want to do clinical pharmacology after a neurology residency in the Army if I go to USUHS. If I do the HPSP instead, I'd go into the pharmaceutical industry after finishing my obligation in the Army. I'm taking the MCAT and applying to medical schools in June.

 

[WernickeDO]

Thanks for the info.

And, I want to do clinical pharmacology after a neurology residency in the Army if I go to USUHS. If I do the HPSP instead, I'd go into the pharmaceutical industry after finishing my obligation in the Army. I'm taking the MCAT and applying to medical schools in June.

You seem really passionate about research and being a physician-scholar, and I would hate to see that enthusiasm squashed. I'm glad that there are some potential in-roads for you to continue research in the military, and it seems like you have gotten some traction on setting up some projects in medical school. I just want to warn you against trusting the military to foster this dedication. The military is notorious for changing your career trajectory on a dime and would have no problem whatsoever in pulling you out of the lab/clinic to be a brigade surgeon or sit in a tent in Eastern Europe for 9 months. Funding will dry up overnight or be diverted to a new nursing project. The IRB panel is not your friend. If you want to do research of any kind you will be better off in a civilian academic setting. Are you thinking about a MD/PhD?

 

[Helpful Troll]

OxToCA - Wow! Prepare for an incredibly long commitment with potential barriers at each step/gate.

Make sure you know how many Clinical Pharmacology (61E) positions exist for AD Officers and that you would qualify with a Neurology residency. It's not likely, so you will have to complete your commitment as a Neurologist (60V) and could be assigned to any number of Medical Centers or Army Community Hospitals. Or, you could hope that the Army needs to train a Clinical Pharmacology fellow the year you graduate from residency and that you are selected for fellowship training.

2017-2018 - MCAT, Commission, and USUHS start -
2022 - 2026 Neurology Residency - There are 4 selected (max) per year for Army
2026-2028 Clinical Pharmacology fellowship - Very limited assignment opportunity
2028 - 2035 AD Army commitment as a Neurologist or Clinical Pharmacologist with or without access to quality research opportunities


Apply to civilian medical schools also, to keep your options open.

 

[Homunculus]

OxToCA - Wow! Prepare for an incredibly long commitment with potential barriers at each step/gate.

I find people with rigid plans do the worst in the military setting. @OxToCA - you don't account for the other people wanting to do clinical pharm. people wait sometimes years to get their slot in this program-- I know one person first hand who waited 2 years for a slot to open. being one of the fellowships that literally anyone can do (sort of like the clinical informatics fellowship) it's often an escape route for people from their previous career. if you are truly motivated for a singular goal of research (without a side-tour in clinical medicine or admin) and want to do it straight through the military is probably not the best fit for you.

--your friendly neighborhood bottle some of that motivation for later caveman

 

[OxToCA]

Thanks for the replies, and I appreciate your feedback. For reference, and although I'd prefer to reply to you individually, it seems like a good time to mention that I'm not interested in pursuing much basic science research past medical school. Before getting ahead of myself in regard to the Clinical Pharmacology fellowship, there are a few things you guys aren't aware of (e.g. what I was advised to do) that I'm planning to eventually add to the blog on my website. Things will make more sense when it's posted, and likewise with research placement at USUHS I'm seeking next year; your feedback will also help me in providing accurate information to prospective HPSP applicants @Armyhealth Nothing is for certain, but IME, it's best to make the most of opportunity. Thanks again @Homunculus @Helpful Troll @WernickeDO

 

[HighPriest]

I find people with rigid plans do the worst in the military setting. @OxToCA - you don't account for the other people wanting to do clinical pharm. people wait sometimes years to get their slot in this program-- I know one person first hand who waited 2 years for a slot to open. being one of the fellowships that literally anyone can do (sort of like the clinical informatics fellowship) it's often an escape route for people from their previous career. if you are truly motivated for a singular goal of research (without a side-tour in clinical medicine or admin) and want to do it straight through the military is probably not the best fit for you.

--your friendly neighborhood bottle some of that motivation for later caveman

Truf. I had a super rigid plan: finish residency, then do as much clinical medicine as possible. Far too specific a path for the Army.

 

[Gastrapathy]

You've tried gang.

 

[MDviaMBB]

Thanks for the replies, and I appreciate your feedback. For reference, and although I'd prefer to reply to you individually, it seems like a good time to mention that I'm not interested in pursuing much basic science research past medical school. Before getting ahead of myself in regard to the Clinical Pharmacology fellowship, there are a few things you guys aren't aware of (e.g. what I was advised to do) that I'm planning to eventually add to the blog on my website. Things will make more sense when it's posted, and likewise with research placement at USUHS I'm seeking next year; your feedback will also help me in providing accurate information to prospective HPSP applicants @Armyhealth Nothing is for certain, but IME, it's best to make the most of opportunity. Thanks again @Homunculus @Helpful Troll @WernickeDO

 

[Homunculus]

hopefully your secret enterprise will replace the cash cow USUHS had that recently died via patent expiration-- synagis. RIP.

--your friendly neighborhood enjoys the intrigue caveman

 

[OxToCA]

hopefully your secret enterprise will replace the cash cow USUHS had that recently died via patent expiration-- synagis. RIP.

--your friendly neighborhood enjoys the intrigue caveman

It might, actually. Someone I know owns a compound in phase III for a condition related to TBI, and I want to participate in its TBI clinical trials which could start before or around the time I'd be in the fellowship. There is some pretty cool stuff planned for biomarkers that relate to my current research, too.

 

[Homunculus]

It might, actually. Someone I know owns a compound in phase III for a condition related to TBI, and I want to participate in its TBI clinical trials which could start before or around the time I'd be in the fellowship. There is some pretty cool stuff planned for biomarkers that relate to my current research, too.

if it pans out let us invest prior to the IPO. I'm sure there's enough financial oomph in the forum we can form an SDN venture capital firm and make us all millions.

in all seriousness, I hope it works out-- but this kind of research doesn't need to be "in house." look at the history of synagis. have you looked into resources at the Intrepid Center of Excellence (tired of the CoEs all over the place but that's what it's called, lol) or other non-MD research positions? my concern is that if you are really into pharmacology, research and clinical implications of it, why not go pharmD then research? if this is your talent and you want to pursue it I think medical school would be a disservice and, to put it bluntly, a waste of your time. it would be 4 years, plus a 3 year residency, before you would conceivably be able to get back to real research again. that's an eternity. you don't need to be a neurologist to do TBI research. there are plenty of them already that can recruit patients. what we need is translational research.

--your friendly neighborhood camp buehring center of excellence caveman

 

[OxToCA]

if it pans out let us invest prior to the IPO. I'm sure there's enough financial oomph in the forum we can form an SDN venture capital firm and make us all millions.

in all seriousness, I hope it works out-- but this kind of research doesn't need to be "in house." look at the history of synagis. have you looked into resources at the Intrepid Center of Excellence (tired of the CoEs all over the place but that's what it's called, lol) or other non-MD research positions? my concern is that if you are really into pharmacology, research and clinical implications of it, why not go pharmD then research? if this is your talent and you want to pursue it I think medical school would be a disservice and, to put it bluntly, a waste of your time. it would be 4 years, plus a 3 year residency, before you would conceivably be able to get back to real research again. that's an eternity. you don't need to be a neurologist to do TBI research. there are plenty of them already that can recruit patients. what we need is translational research.

--your friendly neighborhood camp buehring center of excellence caveman

Thanks for the reply, and I'll be sure to let you know when they plan on going public. Another company with a candidate for the same receptor rang the Nasdaq closing bell 2 weeks ago, too; I was in NY and hoping to attend, but got detoured by the USUHS open house.


Also, for clarification, I don't want to pursue a research career. I want to practice medicine and work on clinical trials, which includes doing things like writing clinical research protocols, validating biomarkers, performing biostatistics and regulatory work, and treating enrolled patients; none of this is in a wet/dry lab or research-based. From the WRAIR/USUHS Clinical Pharmacology program's website USAMRMC: News: WRAIR and USUHS seeking fellows for the Joint Clinical Pharmacology Fellowship Training Program, clinical pharmacologists "identify the good ideas in the basic sciences... pull them through to proof-of-concept clinical testing... and then facilitate FDA approval."

Additionally, I'm currently pursuing an MSc based on the structure and function of clinical trials, and most of my classmates are physicians. And, one of my professors wrote a paper (Clinical pharmacology and therapeutics in the UK – a great instauration) on clinical pharmacology's need in medicine versus the lack of awareness about what it is that's a good read if you have the time. A list of current clinical pharmacology fellowship programs is located at: Training Programs - American Board of Clinical Pharmacology, Inc.; their directors are mostly MDs.

 

[backrow]

I have a random question....do you get paid per link within your posts?


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[OxToCA]

I have a random question....do you get paid per link within your posts?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[dr zaius]

Thanks for the reply, and I'll be sure to let you know when they plan on going public. Another company with a candidate for the same receptor rang the Nasdaq closing bell 2 weeks ago, too; I was in NY and hoping to attend, but got detoured by the USUHS open house.


Also, for clarification, I don't want to pursue a research career. I want to practice medicine and work on clinical trials, which includes doing things like writing clinical research protocols, validating biomarkers, performing biostatistics and regulatory work, and treating enrolled patients; none of this is in a wet/dry lab or research-based. From the WRAIR/USUHS Clinical Pharmacology program's website USAMRMC: News: WRAIR and USUHS seeking fellows for the Joint Clinical Pharmacology Fellowship Training Program, clinical pharmacologists "identify the good ideas in the basic sciences... pull them through to proof-of-concept clinical testing... and then facilitate FDA approval."

Additionally, I'm currently pursuing an MSc based on the structure and function of clinical trials, and most of my classmates are physicians. And, one of my professors wrote a paper (Clinical pharmacology and therapeutics in the UK – a great instauration) on clinical pharmacology's need in medicine versus the lack of awareness about what it is that's a good read if you have the time. A list of current clinical pharmacology fellowship programs is located at: Training Programs - American Board of Clinical Pharmacology, Inc.; their directors are mostly MDs.

I don't disagree with anything you said about clinical pharmacologists, but if you think it'll be an easy time to, "practice medicine and work on clinical trials, which includes doing things like writing clinical research protocols, validating biomarkers, performing biostatistics and regulatory work, and treating enrolled patients" in the Army, you are 100% dead wrong. Obtaining IRB approval is an abysmal process at WR to say the least, the other admin crap you're going to have to deal with is going to drive you nuts/limit your time doing the things you want to do, and also all of the other things seasoned posters in this thread who have lived in this system have mentioned. I know we're all spitting into the wind at this point, but you should really consider staying on the civilian side. If you want to pretend to do research or design clinical trials, sit in meetings where you essentially boost your own ego, and accomplish nothing but somehow sing your own praises all the time then the military is right for you!

If the system doesn't change (let's face it: it won't) I see the potential for a lot of bitterness and disappointment in your future if you go the USUHS/HPSP route.