You_Might_Hate_M3
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Did you get accepted into Tulane ? Anyway, if that is your only acceptance, I'd take it. Instead of debating about what may happen, you can for sure be a medical student this fall. There is no guarantee you will have success next cycle. If you do decide to decline, have a darn good reason because you will be asked why you turned down a guaranteed acceptance. Good luck!
Not really. You are losing one years salary as an attending if you delay. Also, imagine that you didn't get in next cycle, then what? Lastly, as someone that is a couple years older than you and just finished my last exam for ms1, I'd highly recommend you don't delay.Does it help that my retirement from working is sizable (after working 8 years is now ~85k)?
I will also be attending VCU as an OOS. Honestly I think they over priced a lot of the cost of living aspects... without any scholarships I realistic think it will be closer to 300k over the four years. Of course if you have family or other lifestyle associated costs this will vary. Live smart and cheap and I don’t think it will be 400k in the end. Just my two cents.Not Tulane - VCU!
That makes me feel a lot better. How are you doing finding housing?I will also be attending VCU as an OOS. Honestly I think they over priced a lot of the cost of living aspects... without any scholarships I realistic think it will be closer to 300k over the four years. Of course if you have family or other lifestyle associated costs this will vary. Live smart and cheap and I don’t think it will be 400k in the end. Just my two cents.
Or I guess, compared to the debt and no retirement, does having retirement savings ease the blow at all, in that I'm starting from nothing, even though I'm older?Not really. You are losing one years salary as an attending if you delay. Also, imagine that you didn't get in next cycle, then what? Lastly, as someone that is a couple years older than you and just finished my last exam for ms1, I'd highly recommend you don't delay.
Some schools may ask this during secondaries or interviews. Also OP, even with the 4.0 post-bacc you say that you're cGPA is 3.4 That's below average for many med schools, they have many highly qualified applicants to choose from. I honestly think it's foolish to turn down an A with your stats. You have absolutely no guarantee you will get in anywhere next year. MD/PhDs also have an average GPA of like ~3.8 for accepted applicants, so MD/PhD wouldn't be a walk in the park either. You asked the internet so that's my 2 cents.I have been reading past threads and from what's I've read, there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus of whether past A's are reported to other schools. If I am accepted, but withdraw and don't matriculate - does that make any difference?
Yes, I would be 35 if I matriculated this year.
OP, can you elaborate on what specialities you are considering and what you envision your financial plan would be if you went into this debt to attend medical school? Let's get into real numbers. If you choose to like something with a higher earning potential, and would be OK living in a lower COL area, I think it would be very manageable to pay that off in 2-3 years while living frugally. Can you pull that 85k and put it towards med school expenses without incurring a penalty? That will lower the interest that is generated. What about moonlighting in residency? Will also help keep the interest burden down.I make a little more than 50k in academia and only then because of my skill set/years of experience. I could make more if I moved into the clinical lab, but it's not what I want to do with my life. I specifically left clinic to work in research to see if I wanted to go to graduate school or medical school after working on research projects, rather than moving up to management. I know I won't be okay with being a clinical technician even if I can top out at 80k.
Every other job I've been applying to now would actually be part-time as a way to boost my application, this being before I got an A.
My friend who is telling me to hold off and reapply would also like me to work as their development lead in industry. They are a pathologist one year out of fellowship. He is willing to offer me that kind of money and sees me as moving my way up. According to them, being in my 30s with that kind of debt means I will be paying it off for life. Obviously, they would like me to work with them, but they are also in that kind of debt at a younger age than I will be.
OP, can you elaborate on what specialities you are considering and what you envision your financial plan would be if you went into this debt to attend medical school? Let's get into real numbers. If you choose to like something with a higher earning potential, and would be OK living in a lower COL area, I think it would be very manageable to pay that off in 2-3 years while living frugally. Can you pull that 85k and put it towards med school expenses without incurring a penalty? That will lower the interest that is generated. What about moonlighting in residency? Will also help keep the interest burden down.
There are definitely ways to make this work at your age. But it's a huge burden and will close some doors. But also, you have the golden ticket!!!!
Do you want to be a physician or be an RA and have the continued flexibility to try different jobs?
The problem with your analyses is that you aren't calculating any numbers or properly comparing the situation. I mean, obviously, yeah, being an attending at 29 vs 42 is a definite advantage, but OP's situation is to either be an attending at 42 with 400k debt, an attending at 43 with X amount of debt (likely 200k+ still) OR not get in at all OR the unlikely scenario of getting in with a huge scholarship, or to just forego pursue his dream of becoming a physician entirely. And I've already explained how 200k debt from a cheaper school next year compares to 400k debt from a school this year, and I've explained how even 400k debt can be paid off comfortably in 8 years or less comfortably in less time. There are many circumstances in which the OP could pay it off even sooner, in ~4 years. Being 46-50 by the time you're debt free isn't ideal, but it's fine when you're going to work another 15-20 years at least making 300k+. Earning 300k for 15 years is the same lifetime earnings as someone earning 100k at a regular very solid job for 45 years. I'm ignoring tax rates for the sake of not getting too in depth but expressing my general point.I think this is super important. If you want to have the freedom to do mainly research or academics or a low paying specialty I think it is worth it to hold out. If you want to go into PP and work for a decent paycheck + mainly treat patients then I'd say it's probably fine. When I made my post I was going on early 30's = 31 or 32 meaning 36 upon graduation. 35 means 39 before you start making money again and 42 at the minimum before you start paying off the loans. I think this is important to consider and much different then say a 29yr old new attending starting out with $400k of debt.
I think people are also devaluing the post bacc + mcat, those are competitive numbers. I also had a 3.4 gpa and interviewed and was accepted to schools for which my post bacc + mcat was their median. If my gpa from 6+yrs ago was a problem it didn't come up. I think the fact that he/she only applied to 7 schools and got 2 interviews basically shows that.
Thank you! It's 100k estimated CoA total, including ~60k tuition (as an OOS public).I started med school at 33 and even took an extra year during med school and paid tuition for an MPH. I think I had maybe 250k (or a bit more). I didn't live particularly frugally (though was single) and had my loans paid off in 3 years.
Med school apps go in cycles. Because of the economic repercussions and the nature of the pandemic, we could see the next few years being even more competitive.
100k tuition is freakin' ridiculous, but take the acceptance.
Ok $60k tuition is a bit better. My oos tuition was 30some k per year, but I got about 18k scholarship assistance yearly.
And yes, I do a mix of clinical Derm and Dermpath.
I can almost guarantee that health care pay for physicians will go down over time.I'm also in my early 30s and will graduate with 400k in debt from medical school. I'm planning to just pay the interest while in residency (20k if loans are at 5% interest rate), and then the way I think about it is this: If I made 300k as an attending, my take home after taxes would be roughly ~15k a month. If i paid 5k a month toward loans, it would take roughly 8 years to pay off. And IMO 10k a month is more than enough to live comfortably, but with my wife working as well, we could either pay it off faster or try to manage smart investments into retirement, etc. It's definitely doable. I don't worry about the 400k debt except in the instance that healthcare pay goes down substantially in my lifetime, in which case i'd hope there would be some policy in place to help out people with big medical school debt burdens.
Why do you say this? Unless you have some sort of evidence to back it up, it's kind of a dangerous proposition to disseminate, respectfully. While it's true that inflation and cost of living are rising right now, data demonstrates salaries rising in line with that. Even the minimum wage is being raised incrementally over the next 5 years.I can almost guarantee that health care pay for physicians will go down over time.
I’m not trying to be Debbie Downer here but you should be. I am a 70 y.o. very successful retired physician who has seen LOTS. MD/DO incomes, in general, are NOT going to be like they were or are currently. I cannot give y’all a lesson in medical economics to explain this to you.Thank you for this.
I am already in fear of debt as a nontrad and the idea that I could never earn enough pay it off cripples me.
In that case, can you point us in the direction where we can learn about it? Genuinely asking. If this is a sound projection, it is something that incoming student doctors should be aware of.I’m not trying to be Debbie Downer here but you should be. I am a 70 y.o. very successful retired physician who has seen LOTS. MD/DO incomes, in general, are NOT going to be like they were or are currently. I cannot give y’all a lesson in medical economics to explain this to you.
Turning down your only accept is the biggest mistake a premed can make.Bear with me, I apologize. I do not mean any disrespect or arrogance with this post. I don't believe that I'm better than my A - I'm just scared.
I'm a nontrad in my early 30s - nine years out of school, ORM. I did not apply as well as I could have this past cycle and did not realize that COVID-19 would make things even more competitive this cycle.
I put it off till after I did well on my MCAT (517) to make up for my GPA (cGPA 3.4, including 4.0 DIY post-bac). I did a lot of wrong things.
I submitted ~10 primaries in late September invited to secondaries for all, but only completed about 7 of them, submitting them all at the last minute. Not because I didn't like the other schools - I missed the deadline.
I was extremely stressed working to get data for a grant submission (I'm an RA with >10,000 research hours because I'm full-time) and severely misjudged how long things would take.
Not expecting anything, I was ultimately invited to interview in Feb/March to two schools: the med school where I work and an OOS school in the South, near where I am originally from. Waitlisted at both. Both tout themselves as 'holistic' app reviewers, though I was in the last interview of the year for the OOS place.
I know there is no chance with my IS school since the class size was cut and the waitlist is transparent. Unexpectedly, I found out that I was accepted off the waitlist at the OOS school. I was thoroughly planning to rewrite and finetune my essays, apply early this upcoming cycle or next, bolster my clinical experiences, and apply more broadly, including more strategically to my IS school. The IS school offers individual feedback appointments and likes reapplicants with growth.
In line with my marvelous application prep this cycle, I did not realize that the CoA for the OOS school is 100,000 a year.
I'm both hesitant to withdraw or accept as it's my only A. But I also wasn't expecting to get an IIs, let alone As, with how poorly I planned this cycle.
I have a friend who went to USC at a more traditional age and has been telling me to not accept. Do better, apply more broadly, especially at MD/PhD schools, since I am starting school in my 30s and I'll never pay off the $400,000 in loans that I'll need for this OOS school.
On the other hand, I am turning 32 this year, I should be grateful for any chance to attend an MD school - whatever the cost?
Alternatively, I have several interviews and job offers lined up - people who would give me more research experience, flexibility to volunteer/shadow when those opportunities become more available, and money to work on my reapplication.
Again, I apologize if this post gives any hint of disrespect. I would just like some advice.
Turning down your only accept is the biggest mistake a premed can make.
If I can pay down a mortgage larger than your debt in 15 years with two kids, so can you. And you'll be making more than me as a physician.
For most of us, 15 years would be longer than we were willing to take for paying off debt (assuming there are no options/no different careers etc), but the OP’s case seems more clear cut. It may take even less than that to pay off your debt as an attending; I’ve heard 3 years if you live frugally, so I would take the debt now and thank your attending self later.Turning down your only accept is the biggest mistake a premed can make.
If I can pay down a mortgage larger than your debt in 15 years with two kids, so can you. And you'll be making more than me as a physician.
To clarify, in no way am I suggesting that you turn down any acceptance. What I AM saying is that there has been tremendous income pressure ( lower) for a number of years and it does not look to change. Talk to any number of practicing or recently retired physicians. I believe they will confirm. No question, you will make a “good” income but the days of private schools, summer homes, vacations, cruises, etc. 6x/ yr, nannies, 7 figure retirement accounts, WITH EXCEPTIONS, are over. Think accountant, engineer type incomes. The insurers and government have taken the low hanging fruit, are always looking for more, and are now climbing the apple tree.
Thank you both. To clarify, I don't want to be a physician for the money, but the thought of never being able to pay off that debt is/was what truly scared me. My father is a physician working into his 70s, a foreign medical grad, who despite lacking debt from medical school, is working due to business decisions (opening up a solo practice). He joined a private practice in his mid-40s, which would be similar to how old I will be.I can echo this. The ED physicians (though their job economy being in the air) that I am friends with and work with say how different medicine is now and how no one should expect to have the “good life” that physicians had 20-30 years ago. Administration at hospitals have made ED physicians life a living hell. They are a private group so they still make a decent amount salary wise and most of them are close to retirement with decent 8 figure retirement accounts.
No one knows what tomorrow will hold, however if you’re going into this profession solely based on reimbursement, you should highly consider a different career.
Thank you both. To clarify, I don't want to be a physician for the money, but the thought of never being able to pay off that debt is/was what truly scared me. My father is a physician working into his 70s, a foreign medical grad, who despite lacking debt from medical school, is working due to business decisions (opening up a solo practice). He joined a private practice in his mid-40s, which would be similar to how old I will be.
I have been lucky to make 40-50k solidly for the past 8 years with just a BA and I've hovered around this salary with the express intent of getting research experience and going back to school. Arguably, I could have done it sooner, but I never felt "good enough". It's not six figures, but as a single person, I've been comfortable and able to save up through retirement.
However, the "making up" for my undergrad GPA and lack of work-life balance has left me worn out. After work, I usually just go to sleep. I'm contemplating a deferment for mental health reasons, but I am going to this school. This is what I want to do.
Can confirm. OP, medical school is a furnace and I've seen it break even healthy students.As re: mental health. Do NOT consider entering school unless you are on top of it.