No DO residency for MD??

[TJ87]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Why do DO programs inhibit MDs from entering DO residencies? Since everyone thinks MDs and the general public hold a bias against DOs, and DOs hate this...why have DO residencies inhibited MDs? I've research, but have not found the answer obviously.

 

[DrMom]

DO residencies do not accept MDs because they require COMLEX scores and OMM training to qualify to apply to them, neither of which are part of MD school. There have been talks of changing this, but it hasn't gone far yet.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why do DO programs inhibit MDs from entering DO residencies? Since everyone thinks MDs and the general public hold a bias against DOs, and DOs hate this...why have DO residencies inhibited MDs? I've research, but have not found the answer obviously.

A lot of people agree with you, and technically ... there isn't a "great" reason. In my opinion, the reason is, technically, because DO students learn OMM in addition to the standard medical school curriculum, they could be called on it at any time in residency. If an MD student wasn't trained in OMM, they couldn't do this at will. This would obviously be far more valid in FM, PM&R (though it's fairly integrated), NMM/OMM, but could stand true for any residency. This could be fixed by letting MD students sit for the COMLEX and take some course in OMM before/during residency.

In reality, the reason why is probably because the ROADS AOA residencies would be swamped with US and FMG MD applicants, and PDs (who have to be DOs/completed an AOA residency) would show just as much bias as ROADS ACGME programs.

Is it "fair?" No. Should DOs give up some of these coveted spots for the sake of fairness and bettering relationships with the AMA, ACGME, and MDs in general??? Who knows. I've got a pretty solidified opinion on it, but I'll keep it to myself. Personally, I think the best thing to do is slowly make all AOA residencies dually accredited. It would fund a lot of the DO residencies better, and smooth over a thing or two.

 

[dermpathdoc]

Why do DO programs inhibit MDs from entering DO residencies? Since everyone thinks MDs and the general public hold a bias against DOs, and DOs hate this...why have DO residencies inhibited MDs? I've research, but have not found the answer obviously.

there is the issue of AOA accreditation versus ACGME accreditation, how many MD's will want to go to a residency that does not have ACGME accreditation and thus shoot his/her chances of anvancing into a fellowship and/or getting boarded. Of more significance is the fact that a DO who takes a DO residency cannot take a Board exam for a ABMS specialty college...just as in many instances a DO who takes an ACGME residency will find it hard to get AOA board certification except under very specific circumstances.

 

[JaggerPlate]

there is the issue of AOA accreditation versus ACGME accreditation, how many MD's will want to go to a residency that does not have ACGME accreditation and thus shoot his/her chances of anvancing into a fellowship and/or getting boarded. Of more significance is the fact that a DO who takes a DO residency cannot take a Board exam for a ABMS specialty college...just as in many instances a DO who takes an ACGME residency will find it hard to get AOA board certification except under very specific circumstances.

I bet you there would be quite a few MD students who would (if all the legality of it was under control) take ABOMS certification and not AMBS certification if it meant they could be the dermatologist, plastic surgeon, ophthalmologist, etc, of their dreams.

 

[dancingDO14]

I bet you there would be quite a few MD students who would (if all the legality of it was under control) take ABOMS certification and not AMBS certification if it meant they could be the dermatologist, plastic surgeon, ophthalmologist, etc, of their dreams.

👍

 

[MN premed]

There is nothing that MD's learn in medical school that DO's do not learn in medical school. But all DO's learn OMM and MD's don't, so this is the obvious reason that MD's would not be qualified for a DO residency. I don't see why MD's shouldn't be allowed to apply for DO residencies if they somehow take extra classes in OMM and the COMLEX, though.

 

[NYDOC112]

IF you are willing to take a 2 year course in OMM on top of your other didactic training, and you take the COMLEX. Then I would be all for MDs applying into DO residencies. DOs take the USMLE if they want a shot at the MD match. MDs should just have to take the COMLEX and a two year course in OMM.

 

[ronaldo23]

IF you are willing to take a 2 year course in OMM on top of your other didactic training, and you take the COMLEX. Then I would be all for MDs applying into DO residencies. DOs take the USMLE if they want a shot at the MD match. MDs should just have to take the COMLEX and a two year course in OMM.

😕 I was under the impression that 3 months tops would be plenty sufficient to learn OMM, and I thought this was how long DO students train in it for. Is OMM 2 years at all DO schools?

 

[JaggerPlate]

😕 I was under the impression that 3 months tops would be plenty sufficient to learn OMM, and I thought this was how long DO students train in it for. Is OMM 2 years at all DO schools?

I think the average is around 200 hours, spread out over 2 years. This isn't counting any OMM you do in clinicals (elective rotations in OMM, etc).

 

[NYDOC112]

We learn OMM over the first two years, and then most schools require you to also have a 3rd year rotation in the OMM field. We also have osteopathic approach lectures built into our class schedules. But again, if any MD student is willing to do the extra class time that DOs have, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to apply.

 

[ScootDoc]

...

 

[ronaldo23]

Let's take a poll of how many DO residents actually practice OMM regardless of AOA or ACGME status. Not to mention the fact that most practicing DOs could give 2 s**ts less about OMM. With the exception of a few specialties in a few key programs AOA residency positions are considered by the majority to be inferior to ACGME, however, let me qualify this statement by saying that there are some pretty shotty ACGME programs out there too. Anyway, this is pretty much the general consensus. Wouldn't have to be that way if AOA would pull their heads out their a**es. Most MD grads are simply not interested in AOA residency positions. They are few and appear to be in more obscure places.

Don't kill the messenger..... just sayin'

But as mentioned before, in ortho/derm/rads/plastics plenty of MD graduates would love to apply to a DO residency, regardless of what "obscure location" it is in. In other words, even if one accepts your logic that AOA residencies are inferior, PLENTY of MDs would rather go to an "inferior" ortho program than the BEST pediatrics/FM/IM residency, if they had that option.

 

[JaggerPlate]

But as mentioned before, in ortho/derm/rads/plastics plenty of MD graduates would love to apply to a DO residency, regardless of what "obscure location" it is in. In other words, even if one accepts your logic that AOA residencies are inferior, PLENTY of MDs would rather go to an "inferior" ortho program than the BEST pediatrics/FM/IM residency, if they had that option.

Yup ... there are literally dozens of threads in pre-allo where people claim they would eat a "poop hotdog" to get into their US MD school of choice ... I think these same people would definitely live in Kirksville, MO for 4 years to be a dermatologist.

 

[klmnop]

i know a DO who told me that at the end of the matches, if the aoa residencies aren't filled because do's match to acgme ones, some aoa residencies open their doors to md's. he indicated that historically, the main factor keeping md's out of aoa residencies was the lack of desire or knowledge about them. now this clearly conflicts with the steadfast "rule" that md's cannot enter aoa residencies, so i was a bit skeptical.... he did get his degree in 1969

 

[DOwnage]

i know a DO who told me that at the end of the matches, if the aoa residencies aren't filled because do's match to acgme ones, some aoa residencies open their doors to md's. he indicated that historically, the main factor keeping md's out of aoa residencies was the lack of desire or knowledge about them. now this clearly conflicts with the steadfast "rule" that md's cannot enter aoa residencies, so i was a bit skeptical.... he did get his degree in 1969

how do they let unmatched MD's know about it? also, at that point would the unmatched MD's just be judged based on their USMLE scores since they never took the COMLEX?

 

[klmnop]

how do they let unmatched MD's know about it? also, at that point would the unmatched MD's just be judged based on their USMLE scores since they never took the COMLEX?

yeah it didn't really make sense to me either
my guess is that a tiny number (in the tens or low hundreds) of MD's do apply to the AOA programs in the chance that they go unmatched in ACGME, but are selected out for the above reasons (DO-bias, and lack of COMLEX). However there are some AOA residencies that don't fill up, and MD's could be given those spots because ultimately, a rural hospital will want a competent doctor to fill a void, regardless if they know OMM. Maybe they have to take the COMLEX before starting, I have absolutely no idea. I didn't probe into it because I didn't want to quiz the old man about the process where he was a bit sketchy.

Again, this is based off the word of one Chief of Family Medicine DO at a local metropolitan hospital who was very informative in all other regards. He also noted that if there is any apparent bias for DOs and MDs in most ACGME residencies, it is in fact due to a professional bias.... in that these specific regions want to keep the number of XYZ-specialties down, and thus when 19 out of 20 students applying every year are MD's, its not surprising that decades could go by without a DO there.